Beggar

Sripad BV Vana Maharaja:

Well maybe theist is out of here but I want to make a comment for others then. If you read what I have been writing you will see that I do not disagree with the above quote. But my main point is that our perspective cannot always be from "the state of eternal reality". That is why we are also given by the acaryas, an analysis of our "origin" from "the perspective of one conditioned by past present future." The reason should be obvious; Because from the eternal perspective the jiva has no origin. Sarva gattah cannot see this and he wants to have it both ways. I had thought that theist was more open-minded about this.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> </td></tr></tbody></table> This is a cereal box from the early '60s in America. They ran an ad campaign featuring the rabbit on the box and the theme was, "Silly Rabbit, Trix is for kids!" Although Srila Prabhupada said that, the chanting of Hare Krsna is so simple that even a child or a dog can participate"; I don't believe that he thought that the siddhantic philosophy expressed by Srila Jiva Goswami in. his Sandarbhas is something meant for a young child or something that a young child can understand it unless he was a genius. That is why the philosophy of the origin of the jiva expressed by the child in Australia, without an attempt to qualify it in relation to other ideas expressed in the Gaudiya Vaisnava scriptures is truly naiive and childish. If you want to think that Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta is for young children then you are truly a silly rabbit. Silly Rabbit, Krsna is for kids! Nah, maybe the Holy Name but not the siddhanta which is replete with paradoxes and subtle nuances!

Or you can give us the link?

From one viewpoint: what exists in eternity also exists in the present moment so our entrapment in material time and space is illusory, and since everything within all consciousness is contained within infinite spiritual eternity, then so is right now. So from that viewpoint you could write what you have written above, but maybe a little different way, perhaps not using the hot-button word, "fall down" in this context. But obviously you have another agenda and that is to prove that the Prabhupada Bhag. quote,"no one ever falls from Vaikuntha" means what you are saying above. But I and many others don't believe that based on what the previous acaryas have written. But do you see how we agree on principle about the concept of eternity and the present moment? Or is this just Prabhupada Robottm 1.0 talking? Hello is anybody home? Hello? Anyone home? So again, if you were not so concerned with your problem with the. "no one falls from Vaikuntha" quote and pushing that idea, I think that this would be less controversial. After all being a follower of Srila Prabhupada you also must harmonize with other quotes such as: Unless this really is Prabhupada Robottm 1.0 writing? Or you are so bent on your agenda that you have become robotic and are unable to participate in anything but a monologue.

Narasingh, this is a nice quote. It seems like it's from a lecture by Srila Prabhupada (or book?). Do know the date and where the full transcript can be found?

Still there are real followers of Srila Prabhupada, (very, very rare), those who sincerely aspiring to be real followers of Srila Prabhupada, (very rare), those who have some hidden motivation but are still trying, those who pretend to follow just to get a positon and aren't even trying, and those who have just given up. But that's true of all gurus. So the real focus should be to put our hands on our hearts and wonder which one am I?

Only the so-called followers of Srila Prabhupada are chomping at the bit to offend suddha Vaisnavas. His real followers would never do such a thing.

Analogies and metaphors always have their limitations. "A is similar to B." This is a kind of analogy called a simile. "A=B." This is an equation whereas A is equal to or exactly the same as B. If A is analogous to B therefore not exactly equal or the same, then by definition there must be some difference. This difference may to in various degrees or points similar to "shades of gray". On a digital gray scale the differences are automatically quantified, but in real life, analogue life, each shade of gray appears to melt into the other - shades, subtle nuances. Subtle nuances of meaning very much there in the theology of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, the siddhanta or devotional conclusions. The relativity of truths cannot be allowed to walk all over the deepest devotional moods. When we conclude that those who are purest of the pure, those who have the most love for Krsna, those who are dearest to Krsna become inhabitors of minds and bodies that experience hellish lives (or even dream that they do) then our conclusion pierces the soft hearts of those who we aspire to become like.

I had a picture of Jeb Clampet and Ellie may in my post and it disappeared! Shazam! Yes, the its Sukadeva Goswami who gives this cosmology in the Bhagavatam. Srila Prabhupada saw it as literally true (the basis for his rejection of the moon landing) whereas Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that this is how one sees the universe when they are on the level of consciousness of Srila Sukadeva Goswami.

Now Ellie May what's so hard about understand'in that the moon goes around the Earth?

Man, I've gotta lay off that caffeine!

Also theist, try to see that there are more than just two (apparently opposite) sides to this issue. It's not all black and white, but shades of grey. As Srila Sridhar Maharaj said, "there is gradation everywhere." and "there is the Absolute conception and the relative consideration". What Sarva does is that he promotes only the Absolute conception and leaves aside the relative considerations. The relative considerations are those of the previous acaryas. He cannot harmonize the tatastha origin padigm because of its relativity. Anadi bhahir mukha, where anadi, beginingless becomes defined as almost eternal. From the Absolute viewpoint that would completely make no sense, so that concept has a relativity. Those who don't understand this are prone to seeing the tatastha origin description think that it's impersonalism. The opposite pitfall is that some will not see that the tatstha origin description is just that, a description. How can something that is eternal have an origin? That is a paradox. So part of the reason for the tatastha origin description is to illustrated how the jiva is related to Krsna (a kind of relativity). One may bring up the argument that since the jiva can become a jnani and merge with brahman then how is that make the tatastha origin concept, merely a concept or description? The answer is that the brahmajyoti is never an eternal position for the jiva. It is only a temporary position even if a jnani stays there for trillions of years, he again comes down. The same idea is there, anadi, almost eternal. How can anything be almost eternal? Its the same paradox. So if one could go (or be) in Vaikuntha and then fall from that position (or dream it) it would put going back to Godhead in the same position as merging with the brahmajyoti, almost eternal but falling after zillions of years. But this is not the proper devotional way to think about it. What Srila Prabhupada says really doesn't contradict this because he leaves the door slightly open in all his statements such as "millions of years ago we came down from Vaikuntha". Vaikuntha may also mean the entire Spiritual Sky. But in Sarva's descriptions and the GBC OOPs, the door becomes fully shut, and this in a sense denies the paradoxical nature of this issue. Sarva's viewpoint actually does a better job at attempting to deal with what appears to be opposites but he too falls into a position of unmodified duality which does not harmonize with Mahaprabhu's conception of simutaneous oneness and difference.

Because this is Sarva gattah's purport: It may factually seem to be in line with Srila Prabhupada's words but it may in fact be over-reaching or imply something that goes beyond Prabhupada's own words.

The Prabhupada Robot tm strikes again. Is there no defense for this program and its Evil creator, the mad scientist Gaura Gopal? Some how we must find a way to stop it. I am requesting that the best and the brightest Gaudiya Math computer scientists come together to create a technology to defeat this bold attempt to take over the world! We could create a program that could hack into severs and string together processing power to make a virtual super computer which would seek out the unwitting hosts that Sarva gattah's program Prabhupada Robottm has hacked into and disable them. Prabhus there is so much at stake here, if this insidious digital perverted reflection is allowed to continue to run amok in our virtual world, what will become of the tatastha, that point which is neither here nor there? Perhaps in the future this dangerous robotic program will find it's way into biological forms and infiltrate our very brains. Of course this assumes that we have any brains left after years of reading brain dead posts on this website.

Sarva, I've got a great idea. You could program your computer to automatically scan the posts on this site. Then the program would look for certain key words, like origin, tatastha etc. If those words were found then it could count the number of times certain words were used, their frequency. Based on this you could use an algorithm to decide which of your previous posts, which would be on your hard drive to use. So that readers would never suspect that your were not there or "nobody was home" you could use another algorithm which could digitally cut and paste parts of your previous posts of Prabhupada quotes together to create new and unique posts. Then of course the program would decide with another algorithm whether to use the screen name Sarva Gattah, Swarupa or Gauragopa (what ever happened to Asvatthama?). Then of course the program would automatically sign in and post. Just think you could chant japa, cook for the dieties, go on sankirtana and never have sit down on the computer and read Gaudiya Math propaganda. Even if you became senile or brain dead the posting could go on automatically, in fact this could go on for thousands of years at least theorectically! We could call the program Prabhupada Robot 1.0. The program could also be programmed to update itself and automatically hack into servers all over the world. The hacked into servers would actually host Prabhupada Robot 1.0 and it's eventual upgraded version. The hacked sever could then provide resources for Prabhupada Robot and get virtual sukrti (which would require an algorithm in order to quantify). Wouldn't it be fitting to hack into a server located physically in Butler, PA? In this way there would be no need to buy a new computer or to upgrade your technology after you leave your body. Eventually Prabhupada Robot 1.0 could take over the entire world or at least the Gaudiya Math! Wait a minute, am I on to something here? Have you already done this? Wait maybe...No, no it couldn't be?

Hearing, chanting, remembering, offering prayers, cutting, pasting...

Like I've said before the duality that Gaura Gopal, Sarva gattah has so much difficulty with is very similar to the conception of nama aparadha. We are to told that there is no difference between the nama or name and the namni or Who is described by the name, so in Bhagavan's case He is non-different from his Holy Name. A practitioner devotee may think, "I am chanting the Holy Name of Krsna but I cannot see Krsna's form, with His qualities or His divine lila because I am covered by so many offenses, aparadha's to the Name." But the syntax of the word nama aparadha implies that the name one is vibrating on his lips and tongue (if one is committing any of the ten offenses to the Name) is in itself "nama aparadha". So from that viewpoint we may be arising early in the morning and chanting so many nama apradhas on our beads. In my Iskcon years, this never occured to me. When Srila Sridhar Maharaja understood that this obvious point was not seen by the Iskcon devotees who came to him, he explained it in detail. He told that chanting nama apradha is like a gun that fires blanks. But indeed although obvious and right in front of our noses this is a dangerous thought for the Western devotees. As Srila Rupa Goswami has told, in our "jaundiced state" the nama will seem bitter, but the only cure is incessent chanting. But we are always looking for loopholes and sure enough many so-called followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja have more or less given up chanting their prescribed number of rounds (not at all Srila Sridhar Maharaja's intention). So in the same way, the tatastha origin paradigm which we can find in dozens of places in Srila Prabhupada's books can be a dangerous idea for a crowd that is coming from a background in impersonalism. And this appears to be Srila Prabhupada's concern in his conversations and letters with his fledgling disciples in the late 60s through the mid 70s. I have heard this idea from a number of senior, elderly "Gauidya Math" sanyassis. In other words sometimes in order to protect his fledgling disciples who were prone to falling back into impersonalism he would allow his pravacana or preaching to cross siddhanta, proper devotional conclusions. This is why almost all of Gaura Gopal's significant quotes come from conversations and letters and not Srila Prabhupada's books. Yet this analysis is very difficult and within itself fraught with it's own inherent dangers. Naive persons will then reject certain profound descriptions given in these letters and conversations of Srila Prabhupada. In a recent post I also described this phenomena. Because of the Iskcon guru falldowns and the politics that followed when many went outside Iskcon for siksa, a polarization developed with added to the polarization over the issue of the origin of the jiva. This is why I object so much to Gaua Gopal, Sarva gattah's campaign, especially it's style. While he may capture some who are already like minded, he further adds fuel to an already polarized situation.

Its the way that Sarva gattah describes all this that is clumsy and therefore apasiddhantic. But he is really trying to describe a very deep truth; he just doesn't properly harmonize the logical contradictions. The mistake that those on the opposite end of the spectrum (on this is issue) sometimes make is to polarize the issue to the extreme, which I believe that I once was guilty of. In one Western Math I am familiar with, they never talk about, "forgeting Krsna" or "how our material existence" IS a dream and are quick to point out that we were never with Krsna. They also are trying to describe a very deep truth in a clumsy way, but although it appears they are in harmony with siddhanta they neglect a signficant area of the transcedental ontology, unlike their gurus who for some reason they can no longer properly hear. One side is falling off the razors edge to the right and the other side is falling off to the left (and I am not refering to left-wing gopis, here). We are all falling off the razors edge of pure devotional service without any tinge of selfish desires. So this really needs to be the focus. How can we move towards this goal, that was really Srila Prabhupada's focus and the focus of all bonafide acaryas. But in our present dream-like state, we find such a topic to be boring. I know that I do. Who wants to really admit all the dirty, unwanted things in our polluted hearts. And maybe that's why we really don't have much interest in Krsna's and Mahaprabhu's lilas.

In relation to the Material World, there is no time is the Spiritual World - no material time with its birth, death disease and old age. But just like there is spiritual sex-life there, so there is spiritual time. It is said that Srimati Radharani worshiped the time when She was with Krsna. Spiritual time is within the realm of Yoga Maya whereas material time is within the realm of Maha Maya. Yet it is said by the acaryas that there is really only one Maya or energy and that energy has different functions. So all these ideas represent the duality of our present dream-like illusory existence and what exists beyond the maya jala or veil of illusion in the present moment. The proper harmony between these two dualities - the Krsna Conscious view from our present, relative existence or the Krsna Conscious view from eternity has been given by the Six Goswamis and their followers and is known as Gaudiya Vaisnava Siddhanta. In this siddhanta these opposites have been explained, so that future practitioners would have a guideline on how to think about these things in a favorable manner. It is never favorable for a practioner in this world (or dreaming that one is in this world) to view onself on the level of the nitya-siddha, eternal servitors of the Lord who are infallable or never fall down. It is like-wise unfavorable to think that such parishad devotees would ever even dream of leaving their rasik seva to Sri Krsna. Even if one can develop their own logic based on the reality of the "Present Moment" and come up with opposite conclusions to proper siddhanta it is really meaningless. We are discussing a topic which is far beyond the logic and reason of our "puppy brains". Without proper siddhanta there cannot be proper sambandha jnana, knowing what is what in relation to Krsna. Srila Narayana Maharaja has said that without real sambandha jnana our sadhana will not have much of an effect.

It is indeed incorrect to state that "the jiva fell from direct Lila to the abode of exploitative illusion." Yet, from the angle of vision of "the present moment", it may be said that the fallen jiva is not really "fallen" but is merely "dreaming" going from one material body to another. These are different angles of vision. I do not believe that Sarva gattah has properly harmonized these two angles of vision. All the acaryas accept both. The bottom line is to understand that the eternal parishads of Krsna never fall down; And this is true although some free will exists for all souls. Such eternal parishads servitors always remain in the realm where Maha Maya's illusory powers cannot exist.

I found it on a two-way street, but lost it on a lonely highway.

Good post: "mitaḿ ca sāraḿ ca vaco hi vāgmitā" iti "Essential truth spoken concisely is true eloquence." CC Adi 1.106 But remember that the acarya that he aspires to follow was an intimate friend of Srila Prabhupada, although from a junior position. He needs to harmonize his outlook with his guru's conception. But he is not yet developed to the point of understanding that.

I'm more into funky Stevie:"We Was Made To serve Krsna" I was born in Maya, Had a childhood sweetheart, We were always hand in hand. I joined the Hare Krsnas mixed shoes and sikha tails, Devi was in pig tails, I know I was detached from her even then. When I moved into the temple...you know my papa disapproved it, My mata boohooed it, But I told them time and time again, "Don't you know we all was made to serve Krsna, Built a world all around Prabhupada" jaya! Hari, hey, hey. He's been my inspiration, tried to show appreciation For the grace he gave me through the years. Like a sweet kadamba tree My creeper blossmed tenderly, Hare nama grew sweeter through the years... I tried to continue to do it,then I blooped it, Now I've been stuck in Maya many years...

Both are true ontologically, simultaneously, inconceivably one and different. But the experience of meeting Krsna is always like finding a long lost friend and the experience of His abode is one of returning home. What are we really interested in? Theoretical knowledge of every aspect of Reality or the direct experience of Reality.