theist

can't please every mind. The sectarianists will squabble over anything and everything. Best we bow out and not participate in worrying too much about how they may take things.

Devotees have different natures. While I myself am unable to follow this due to my lacking knowledge of the personalities involved, I am thankful that there are devotees inclined to a more scholarly approach. These discussions and the conclusions that hopefully will come from them strengthen and protect us all from becoming just a society of sentimentalists. Scholars are needed just as dishwashers and kirtana leaders. People must follow their natures.

SB 1.2.26 TRANSLATION Those who are serious about liberation are certainly nonenvious, and they respect all. Yet they reject the horrible and ghastly forms of the demigods and worship only the all-blissful forms of Lord Vishnu and His plenary portions. PURPORT The Supreme Personality of Godhead Sri Krsna, who is the original person of the Visnu categories, expands Himself in two different categories, namely integrated plenary portions and separated parts and parcels. The separated parts and parcels are the servitors, and the integrated plenary portions of visnu-tattvas are the worshipful objects of service. All demigods who are empowered by the Supreme Lord are also separated parts and parcels. They do not belong to the categories of viñëu-tattva. The visnu-tattvas are living beings equally as powerful as the original form of the Personality of Godhead, and They display different categories of power in consideration of different times and circumstances. The separated parts and parcels are powerful by limitation. They do not have unlimited power like the visnu-tattvas. Therefore, one should never classify the visnu-tattvas, or the plenary portions of Näräyana, the Personality of Godhead, in the same categories with the parts and parcels. If anyone does so he becomes at once an offender by the name päsandi. In the age of Kali many foolish persons commit such unlawful offenses and equalize the two categories. The separated parts and parcels have different positions in the estimation of material powers, and some of them are like Käla-bhairava, Smaräna-bhairava, Çani, Mahäkälé and Candikä. These demigods are worshiped mostly by those who are in the lowest categories of the mode of darkness or ignorance. Other demigods, like Brahmä, Siva, Sürya, Ganesha and many similar deities, are worshiped by men in the mode of passion, urged on by the desire for material enjoyment. But those who are actually situated in the mode of goodness (sattva-guna) of material nature worship only visnu-tattvas. Visnu-tattvas are represented by various names and forms, such as Näräyana, Dämodara, Vämana, Govinda and Adhoksaja. The qualified brähmaëas worship the visnu-tattvas represented by the sälagräma-silä, and some of the higher castes like the kñatriyas and vaisyas also generally worship the visnu-tattvas. Highly qualified brähmaëas situated in the mode of goodness have no grudges against the mode of worship of others. They have all respect for other demigods, even though they may look ghastly, like Käla-bhairava or Mahäkälé. They know very well that those horrible features of the Supreme Lord are all different servitors of the Lord under different conditions, yet they reject the worship of both horrible and attractive features of the demigods, and they concentrate only on the forms of Visnu because they are serious about liberation from the material conditions. The demigods, even to the stage of Brahmä, the supreme of all the demigods, cannot offer liberation to anyone. Hiraëyakaçipu underwent a severe type of penance to become eternal in life, but his worshipful deity, Brahmä, could not satisfy him with such blessings. Therefore Visnu, and none else, is called mukti-päda, or the Personality of Godhead who can bestow upon us mukti, liberation. The demigods, being like other living entities in the material world, are all liquidated at the time of the annihilation of the material structure. They are themselves unable to get liberation, and what to speak of giving liberation to their devotees. The demigods can award the worshipers some temporary benefit only, and not the ultimate one. It is for this reason only that candidates for liberation deliberately reject the worship of the demigods, although they have no disrespect for any one of them.

Thanks Jndas, I was wondering along those lines.

I don't know about this but the military have been working on camo suits that project an image of whatever terrain the soldier finds himself in. Battlefield chameleons. When in the desert they totally blend in. Without changing clothes they can move to mountains or forests and also totally blend in. Not sure if this is what you were speaking to Kalupavana. Strange days.

authored by...? created by....? or caused by....? Maybe 'caused by' is different.

SB 3.25.16: When one is completely cleansed of the impurities of lust and greed produced from the false identification of the body as "I" and bodily possessions as "mine," one's mind becomes purified. In that pure state he transcends the stage of so-called material happiness and distress. SB 3.25.17: At that time the soul can see himself to be transcendental to material existence and always self-effulgent, never fragmented, although very minute in size. ------------------- One who knows himself as described is self-effulgent. This is the person we want to hear from. He may be in charge of a big matha of many temples and the writer of many books or an illerate beggar who lives underneath some tree. But he must know himself as a photon of the unlimited Sri Krsna and his relationship to Him.

"Eternal student" is refering to an attitude. It is more than a usefull quote, it is mood that we should carry into life. Anyway,again one after another has to be defined more specifically it appears to me. Does it refer to one body after another? Couldn't be, or that would mean everyone with a body is in a disciplic line. Person after person whispering a certain mantra into someone else's ear who does the same for someone else ad infinitum? Could be. But as has been pointed out the mantras are written down so what is to stop someone from reading a mantra and then claiming to be in line and just start whispering that mantra into the ears of others and collected some daksina along the way? Surely that can't be what is meant by disciplic line. What life would be in such a mantra that couldn't be had by someone just reading it themselves? Maybe one after another then shouldn't be taken in terms of strict linear time. A so-called gap may not be a gap afterall, only appearing as such from the view of the external senses. A gap in bodies. If I hear someone speaking the same truth that Prabhupada taught i will accept him as speaking in succession even if I don't know his bodily history. Even if I am left with Supersoul being the only reasonable possible source for his knowledge. Why? because being in disciplic succession means to accept the same conclusion of that succession.

Govindaram, You are more living in two worlds then most of us. Alot of us have just become so bored with Western culture. Silly fads come and go every year. Little endures. India has this long history that just awes us on its face. Dances and rituals that can be traced back thousands of years. On top of that all these mystical symbols with extremely subtle meanings behind them that we can't understand. I mean even hand gestures in Indian dances convey deep truths. We sense it but not really catching it. Sometimes it just fascinates us and brings out the gullible child in us. Even all the spicy foods seems exotic to us at first. Later we start to earn to differentiate but it takes a while and even then we often carry this sense of being imitators culturaly in many ways.

Is there a need for HK's to have strong opinions on every festival? Some people celebate these things and some don't. Certainly a much more cultured way of social interaction then what we have going in then west. People who go to Garba and also go to Mahaprabhu's sankirtana should not be preached to and disturbed over it. Nor should devotees become attracted to go thinking it's ok because it's Indian and exotic. If we concentrate on making the kirtans and feasts so ecstatic and joyous that others become too attracted to leave then perhaps we have fulfilled our mission. Sure we can say that worship of the Supreme Person and His devotees will automatically satisfy the demigods as well and so there is no need for separate endeavor but we needn't make it a big point of contention.

This is the story of my last 30 plus years. Sometimes i don't stop chanting and reading. I find myself in a wonderful zone. I feel that now I have obtained some solid steadiness. And then I lose all taste and can't even pick up my beads. In betweeen I chant 16 or 20 or 3 or 10. Presently I have been so depressed I haven't chanted on my beads for at least three weeks. This will pass. The trick I am trying to learn is to somehow see that its just the modes of nature fighting for dominance within the mind. If I can do that I retain some balance amidst the storm. From that balance I can remember Krsna a little. Then at some point a little taste returns and I will pick my beads back up. Its like if you have ever been surfing or body surfing and you get caught in some white water from a strong wave, it does no good to try and fight.It just over powers you. All you can do is hold your breath and remain calm. Sometimes all I can do is lay there and think to myself, "I am eternal and will outlast this, please help me Krsna." He always does, in His own time and fashion. Hang in there. Your destiny is an etenal life of bliss and knowledge, and you are closer than you think.

Gangsta' Rap Krsna may be stretching it too far. Reminds me of a Madonna and baby Christ painting I saw one time in a Catholic art gallery. It was from Japan. Both Mary and Jesus were shown as Japanese. Mary in Kimono holding child Jesus. It was very beautiful and attractively done.

I see.

Ok LE, now you have done it. Whose Amba? If this is a circular stick dance sort of thing then I can say I used to go. The gujurati's would preform this on ekadasi which was one day ahead of when we honored it. They would dance at the temple. I didn't take part I just went to see the pretty Indian girls dancing around. That is until I realized what a slob I was for going to Radha Krishna's temple with such a degraded motive, then I quit.

garba?

Here is a quote from Prabhupada's introduction to the Bhagavad-gita. I have wondered about this cloning thing also. Very odd world we live in. I was wondering what karma it would take to be incarnated into a cloned body. Maybe its a relationship between the cloners and the cloned. One life one experiments with cloning and the next life he is "born" as a clone. Who knows? Weird stuff though.

The soul is not restricted to entering through sperm. The higher authorities may simply add the soul to the petrie dish and "attach"it to some DNA particle or other. Afterall, which came first, the man and woman or the cosmic genetic engineers?

to give all such snakes your email and you can converse with such all day long. Me, I'll carry a long heavy stick. If after all these years you can't tell the difference between an obnoxious snake like offender to your guru and someone expressing honest doubts and seeking a converstaion then what can I say. "Your Momma..." Get it?

Why do you come to this forum where Bhaktivedanta is respected? if your talk was anything more than pretense you would be meditating so deeply on Krsna's eightfold daily pastimes that you would have lost awareness of us 'lowlifes' long ago. Go play manjari somewhere else. You have no connection with Krsna. Like Kaliya you are simply a venom spitter. A snake like sectarianist slithering from forum to forum poisoning the atmosphere wherever you happen to be crawling at the moment. Personally I am lowcast and lack vaisnava manners. Speak that _rap in front of me and I'll simply crack your face with a swift elbow shot.

Krsna is non-different from His words.

That is a tricky one. One one hand they may have insight into past experiences in your life that are causing you to hang on to destruction patterns that maybe interfering with you sadhana. On the other hand they will usually consider your ideas of spirituality as so much mental fantasy stemming from a need to find something to help you cope with "reality." Like God for instance. Mostly they can help one climb from ignorance into passion or some "transpersonal pyschologists" may be able to help you develop some into sattva-guna, but they are then mostly some variety of impersonalists or Buddhists. But in the area of helping remove some of the grosser mental emotional blocks many of us face they can be somewhat helpfull. Pray to Supersoul for protective discretion first if you choose to go this route. Hare Krsna

Are you saying prabhupada is not current? Guest please sincerely ask the Lord in your heart to direct you and lead you to the source from which He would prefer to reveal Himself to you.

Gaurasundara, It may be that you alieniated some with some heavy statements on another thread. I don't think that was your intention. I wish I could help more but not being formally initiated in any line what do I know. Although frankly this animosity between the different groups seems rather silly and childish to me. Of course I don't understand the issue at a very deep level. To me the real villians are the pretentious persons from any camps. That can be found in false preachers as well as fake babajis. So often it seems like people are just recycling some old gossip and heresay. Can this really help us find that river of transcendental knowledge? It becomes especially dangerous when we consider the high nature of those who are the subject of such talk."So and so told me he heard from someone that Bhaktisiddhanta was never properly initiated" etc. Or "Did you hear that so and so Baba took an extra long look at some girl on the path to the Yamuna today". If we really want to know who to hear from we should ask Supersoul to guide us. I know you have heard that a thousand times but I can't find a flaw in it or a better method. I also find your willingness to consider these points so seriously and at great depth refreshing and encouraging as I believe it bodes well as a sign that this parampara will continue in good hands. I fear the "just believe brother" types greatly. They avoid these difficult internal struggles in favor of parrot like repetition. This attitude will enable us to get along quite nicely in some group or another but when our faith is really put to the test in some way it won't be enough to support us. I would suggest slowing down a bit and really reviewing JNdas' points to you in another post. Consider those points in an open way and I feel you will see the answer there. Hare Krsna

A very natural question that we all have had. I have heard three different answers from Gaudiya Vaisnavas to this. 1. We feel from direct pastimes with Krsna. 2.(A) We originated in the effulgence of Maha-Vishnu and had a choice to rise up into active service to Krsna or to become enamoured by the material side of active life and thus became entangled. (B) Like (A) but not all souls as some did have the origin from The aurs of different forms of Krsna and entered directly into a rasa appropriate for relating with that form of Godhead. This says there are two classes of jiva's. 3. We originated at the lowest position in the material world and are working our way up. My problem is I find it's just something that I can't comprehend at the moment with the available knowledge. The main thing is I can perceive that I am presently experiencing repeated birth and death and need to transfer my consciousness to an eternal realm to actually experience happiness in its true state. You are the best proof as you are the soul. Its not that you are a body that has a soul but rather you are the soul that presently has a material body. Try using the word self in place of soul. Prominent scientists like Francis(DNA) Crick have researched the brain looking for the self with no success. He is know lecturing thsat there is no self to be found and that we in fact do not really exist. Such a silly scientist. He has successfully shown that the self must be something other than the material body though. The fact that the body still shows signs of life such as metabolism is proof of the souls existence. When we leave the body metabolism stops and that which composed the body disperses. The soul is in the subtle body which has correspondence to the physical heart. Yes, a most inmportant topic for sure. I would like to reccommend a book called Who Are You by Chris Butler (AKA Siddhasvarupananda) a disciple of Srila Prabhupada which covers this very nicely and takes up the materialistic arguments and shows where they are lackin. The Identity Institute P.O. Box 11039 Honolulu Hawaii 96828 This may be an outdated address.

A very natural question that we all have had. I have heard three different answers from Gaudiya Vaisnavas to this. 1. We feel from direct pastimes with Krsna. 2.(A) We originated in the effulgence of Maha-Vishnu and had a choice to rise up into active service to Krsna or to become enamoured by the material side of active life and thus became entangled. (B) Like (A) but not all souls as some did have the origin from The aurs of different forms of Krsna and entered directly into a rasa appropriate for relating with that form of Godhead. This says there are two classes of jiva's. 3. We originated at the lowest position in the material world and are working our way up. My problem is I find it's just something that I can't comprehend at the moment with the available knowledge. The main thing is I can perceive that I am presently experiencing repeated birth and death and need to transfer my consciousness to an eternal realm to actually experience happiness in its true state. You are the best proof as you are the soul. Its not that you are a body that has a soul but rather you are the soul that presently has a material body. Try using the word self in place of soul. Prominent scientists like Francis(DNA) Crick have researched the brain looking for the self with no success. He is know lecturing thsat there is no self to be found and that we in fact do not really exist. Such a silly scientist. He has successfully shown that the self must be something other than the material body though. The fact that the body still shows signs of life such as metabolism is proof of the souls existence. When we leave the body metabolism stops and that which composed the body disperses. The soul is in the subtle body which has correspondence to the physical heart. Yes, a most inmportant topic for sure. I would like to reccommend a book called Who Are You by Chris Butler (AKA Siddhasvarupananda) a disciple of Srila Prabhupada which covers this very nicely and takes up the materialistic arguments and shows where they are lackin. The Identity Institute P.O. Box 11039 Honolulu Hawaii 96828 This may be an outdated address.