theist

Yes that is the method. But what does the GBC voting process have to do with what you described? Do you see my point? What if a relation like you described develops before the teacher has been offically certified as guru? Or if he gets a no vote from the GBC? Can they still develop a guru disciple relationship anyway? Then what would follow is the typical wrangling around between shiksa and diksa guru. A topic which I am convinced I will be confused on for centuries since people seem to use the term diksa in different ways. Maybe if the intiating gurus in Iskcon were understood to be giving intiations to allow one to serve as a pujari and allow other guru disciple relationships to develop naturally, but there seems to be a great confusion on this point. As it is now people are singing "my Lord birth after birth" to people who may get kicked out or drop out of Iskcon at any moment.

I'll take your word on the Bhagavatam quote as I haven't the slightest idea what the sanskrit means. My concern is on the fact that the way to come to recognize guru is being obscured by this voting system instead of relying on Supersoul. No need to go through the internal crisis that Ajuna went through as he accepted guru. It's all laid out by the committee. The problem is this crisis is an important part of one developing their own internal vision.

If someone is a guru by qualification already then why the need for the GBC to vote on it? I mean what is the point? Or is it supposed that that person is transformed somehow by the winning the vote? What exactly is the point of the vote? To let others know? Wouldn't that be done by Supersoul?

If someone is a guru by qualification already then why the need for the GBC to vote on it? I mean what is the point? Or is it supposed that that person is transformed somehow by the winning the vote? What exactly is the point of the vote? To let others know? Wouldn't that be done by Supersoul?

Yes I also believe that is an example of ecclesiastical convention. So does it not follow that if one accepts Iskcon's position he is accepting guru on the basis of ecclesiatical considerations?

Yes I can see that about not just accepting the village brahmin as guru or the local pastor on the corner. But what is an example of "ecclesiastical conventions"?

I am not saying it is negative or positive. That is a relative consideration. An ecclestiastical experience may be very helpful for us depending on our situation. All I am saying is Prabhupada cites Jiva Gosvami on this point and advises not to accept guru on ecclesiastical considerations. So therefore we should know what that means, and how to recognize it. Is the Catholic Churche's voting in the Pope an example of people accepting guru due to ecclesiastical considerations?

Prabhupäda: No, no, no. We are discussing this verse. He said that “Anyone who is always think...” Karma-yogi also always thinks of Krsna. That’s all right. That is not denied. But the highest principle is always keeping Krsna within his mind. Premäïjana-cchurita... That is confirmed in the Brahma-saàhitä. Premäïjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaù sadaiva hådayeñu vilokayanti [bs. 5.38]. This kind of practice of yoga can be done by an unalloyed devotee. Premäïjana-cchurita, by developing the dormant love of God. That is... That is the highest perfection. And another thing is, you are accepting mind as ätmä, are you not? That’s not correct. Mind is not ätmä. Guest (1): No, no, mind is not ätmä. No. The ätmä and mind, they come together, each other come. When your mind does not go from here to there... Prabhupäda: Yes, mind fixed up in ätmä. That’s nice. But mind is not ätmä. Guest (1): No, no. Prabhupäda: Mind is matter, subtle matter. Guest (1): Certainly. That is the laws. Prabhupäda: Mind is kind of fume of the ätmä. So mind becomes, changes the color of the fume according to the state of the ätmä. If the ätmä is in pure state, then mind is pure. If the ätmä is impure state, the mind is impure. So we have taught all our disciples, satataà kértayanto mäà [bg. 9.14], always chanting Hare Kåñëa. Satataà kértayanto mäà [bg. 9.14].

Prabhupäda: No, no, no. We are discussing this verse. He said that “Anyone who is always think...” Karma-yogi also always thinks of Krsna. That’s all right. That is not denied. But the highest principle is always keeping Krsna within his mind. Premäïjana-cchurita... That is confirmed in the Brahma-saàhitä. Premäïjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaù sadaiva hådayeñu vilokayanti [bs. 5.38]. This kind of practice of yoga can be done by an unalloyed devotee. Premäïjana-cchurita, by developing the dormant love of God. That is... That is the highest perfection. And another thing is, you are accepting mind as ätmä, are you not? That’s not correct. Mind is not ätmä. Guest (1): No, no, mind is not ätmä. No. The ätmä and mind, they come together, each other come. When your mind does not go from here to there... Prabhupäda: Yes, mind fixed up in ätmä. That’s nice. But mind is not ätmä. Guest (1): No, no. Prabhupäda: Mind is matter, subtle matter. Guest (1): Certainly. That is the laws. Prabhupäda: Mind is kind of fume of the ätmä. So mind becomes, changes the color of the fume according to the state of the ätmä. If the ätmä is in pure state, then mind is pure. If the ätmä is impure state, the mind is impure. So we have taught all our disciples, satataà kértayanto mäà [bg. 9.14], always chanting Hare Kåñëa. Satataà kértayanto mäà [bg. 9.14].

This is a very good question. We talk of the mind as a subtle casing for the soul. Like it is distinct from the soul totally. And yet we talk of the mind as being a constituent of the soul at other times. I seem to remember Prabhupada refering to the soul as a type of fume that radiates from the soul. I will try to find that quote.

This is a very good question. We talk of the mind as a subtle casing for the soul. Like it is distinct from the soul totally. And yet we talk of the mind as being a constituent of the soul at other times. I seem to remember Prabhupada refering to the soul as a type of fume that radiates from the soul. I will try to find that quote.

would you call the Catholics voting in someone as Pope ecclesiastical?

Prabhupada quoting Jiva Gosvami says that one should not accept ecclesiastical guru. What is an example of an ecclesiastical guru? Main Entry: ec·cle·si·as·ti·cal Function: adjective 1 : of or relating to a church especially as an established institution 2 : suitable for use in a church - ec·cle·si·as·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

I have not heard anyone lay out the specific benefits that this would bring to society or the specific women involved? A cost benefit analysis might be in order. I can see the danger in further fracturing the devotee community but I can't really see any benefits. I can see the obvious benefit in Prabhupada starting a brahmacarini ashrama though. That is very clear.

Well actually it is the siddhanta as the quote from Prabhupada below confirms. Because the spiritual world is one Krsna, indirect is there but it is non-different from direct. But the point is how to recognize guru. No use talking of Radha if we can't perceive Supersoul in terms of following directions to determine who is Krsna's representative or not. Don't worry about turning me away from GV. That is not in your power.But thank you for the concern. I am learning to rely on the Supersoul to direct me. I'll either learn from the Lord or I won't learn. Please understand that when I say the Lord that includes His representatives, but I won't be able to recognize or hear properly from them without His grace. From Prabhupada's Gita intro. Here the Lord clearly tells Arjuna that He is making him the first receiver of a new paramparä (disciplic succession) because the old succession was broken. It was the Lord’s wish, therefore, to establish another paramparä in the same line of thought that was coming down from the sun-god to others, and it was His wish that His teaching be distributed anew by Arjuna. He wanted Arjuna to become the authority in understanding the Bhagavad-gétä. So we see that Bhagavad-gétä is instructed to Arjuna especially because Arjuna was a devotee of the Lord, a direct student of Krsna, and His intimate friend. Therefore Bhagavad-gétä is best understood by a person who has qualities similar to Arjuna’s. That is to say he must be a devotee in a direct relationship with the Lord. As soon as one becomes a devotee of the Lord, he also has a direct relationship with the Lord. That is a very elaborate subject matter, but briefly it can be stated that a devotee is in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in one of five different ways: 1. One may be a devotee in a passive state; 2. One may be a devotee in an active state; 3. One may be a devotee as a friend; 4. One may be a devotee as a parent; 5. One may be a devotee as a conjugal lover. Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend.

Well actually it is the siddhanta as the quote from Prabhupada below confirms. Because the spiritual world is one Krsna, indirect is there but it is non-different from direct. But the point is how to recognize guru. No use talking of Radha if we can't perceive Supersoul in terms of following directions to determine who is Krsna's representative or not. Don't worry about turning me away from GV. That is not in your power.But thank you for the concern. I am learning to rely on the Supersoul to direct me. I'll either learn from the Lord or I won't learn. Please understand that when I say the Lord that includes His representatives, but I won't be able to recognize or hear properly from them without His grace. From Prabhupada's Gita intro. Here the Lord clearly tells Arjuna that He is making him the first receiver of a new paramparä (disciplic succession) because the old succession was broken. It was the Lord’s wish, therefore, to establish another paramparä in the same line of thought that was coming down from the sun-god to others, and it was His wish that His teaching be distributed anew by Arjuna. He wanted Arjuna to become the authority in understanding the Bhagavad-gétä. So we see that Bhagavad-gétä is instructed to Arjuna especially because Arjuna was a devotee of the Lord, a direct student of Krsna, and His intimate friend. Therefore Bhagavad-gétä is best understood by a person who has qualities similar to Arjuna’s. That is to say he must be a devotee in a direct relationship with the Lord. As soon as one becomes a devotee of the Lord, he also has a direct relationship with the Lord. That is a very elaborate subject matter, but briefly it can be stated that a devotee is in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in one of five different ways: 1. One may be a devotee in a passive state; 2. One may be a devotee in an active state; 3. One may be a devotee as a friend; 4. One may be a devotee as a parent; 5. One may be a devotee as a conjugal lover. Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend.

I fear this is too simple transient. It also means my say in the matter is not needed. This whole material world is here because some of us souls want to take Krsna place. This process is a reflection of that desire I'm afraid."Krsna won't or can't do it so I/we better step in and save the day." Actually I see taking part in a system like this to be a disqualification more than a qualification. Shouldn't a real guru at least have enough faith that the Lord is in control and too leave it in His hands?

I fear this is too simple transient. It also means my say in the matter is not needed. This whole material world is here because some of us souls want to take Krsna place. This process is a reflection of that desire I'm afraid."Krsna won't or can't do it so I/we better step in and save the day." Actually I see taking part in a system like this to be a disqualification more than a qualification. Shouldn't a real guru at least have enough faith that the Lord is in control and too leave it in His hands?

Scientists cannot explain it. It drives them crazy and it should.

Scientists cannot explain it. It drives them crazy and it should.

World powers come and go ,rise and fall like waves. Ultimately God is the only power.

Slander? I just asked a question. The above quote was the one I was trying to remember. Since I couldn't remember if you said you worked or just voted for him I thought I would ask. Sorry. Bye

Aren't you the same person who claims to have actively campaigned for Gray Davis for Govenor of California?

It's been tried. Remember Jayatirtha's LSD cult? I have seen a danger in thinking we have reached a stage where we think we can act in contrary ways because "devotees" are free from those restrictions and since I am a "devotee" it follows I am free to do what every I like in Krsna's name. The result has been only so much havoc.

I am presently reading this book called The Saints of Vraja by O.B.L. Kapoor. He gives these short accounts from the lives of some saints of Vraja. I am loving this book so far and am just a little ways into it. I will type out one small section that gives a glimpse into this subject from the high Vaisnava's angle. If someone knows where this book is online please share that info. --------- SRI NITYANANDA DASA BABA JI - chapter 6 Amongst the siddha mahatmas of Vrndavana the personality of siddha Nityananda Dasa Baba Ji, disciple of siddha Krsnadaa Baba of Govardhana, was unique. His lila-smarana(inner experience of the divine lila), whether in the state of jagarana (waking), svapna (dreamimg), or susupti (deep sleep), was continuous like a stream. In his waking state it appeared as if he was asleep, because in waking he controlled his bhava and remained mostly grave, motionless and samadhistha (absorbed in deep meditation). When made to get up by his disciples for essential activities like bathing and eating, he got up like one who was in deep sleep. But in sleep while experiencing lila he laughed, wept, or talked as if he was awake; because in sleep it was not possible for him to control bhava. Therefore, it was not possible to determine whether at any particular time he was asleep or awake. --------------------------- It appears that what I call day and night have no meaning to such souls as Sri Nityanada Das Baba Ji. It seems he lives in a way that reverses these concepts or perhaps day and night really have no meaning to him at all. See Bg 2.69 Hare Krsna