gHari

Falling down. Here, I am the expert. It is the great ahankara. Since before recorded time we have been subjected, conditioned by life after life in 8,400,000 different forms to scratch and claw out a living, barely able to lift our eyes beyond the next meal. Conditioned to the dictates of the bodies one after another we stand in this human form a mass of attachments, prejudices and whims - completely tied up by ahankara. It has taken eons to make us really believe that we are this body so we can truly enjoy as if separate from Krsna. Now we are to undo all that conditioning and fall in love with Krsna from scratch. It is an insurmountable task, one that is only possible in the final analysis through receiving the rare gift of Krsna's special causeless mercy. Somehow we must attract Him, His heart. They talk about a fan that keeps spinning for a time even after the plug has been pulled out of the wall socket. It is not an easy thing, yet it is an easy thing because all these so many attachments and false conceptions and goals are not really part of us, not part of our eternal self, our true self. They are like mushrooms that have no real root in our soul. They are born in matter and fall away as the soul stands up. Stand and fight, O Mighty-armed one.

So dangerous.

If you stop scratching, it won't itch anymore.

Of course we have some explaining to do with the strictly-no-fall scenario when we consider that jivas are constantly entering the Kingdom of God forever and ever. Do we ever run out of jivas in maya to save? Are the new ones less eternal than the ones who entered the Kingdom zillions of kalpas ago?

Here's a video that addresses this topic: http://www.indiadivine.org/support/index.php?_m=downloads&_a=viewdownload&downloaditemid=4

We came up with that some years ago, not really caring either way; but a third position may dilute the fury of the poles. In my experience, if it is a triangle AND it is a circle, then I am looking at a cone. That is, fall AND no fall are both TRUE. Not that it matters, here or there.

Srila Prabhupada was a follower. They were all followers. Like the man said, this is the way. That was the humble perspective we all needed, Mahaksadasa. We sometimes get too great.

ALIENS ARE COMING TO ABDUCT ALL THE GOOD LOOKING SEXY PEOPLE. YOU WILL BE SAFE, I'M JUST POSTING TO SAY GOODBYE.

18.66 is beautifully preached in the Sermon of the Mount. Essence seekers can easily see the truth in both. There needs to be no further discussion. The gospel message is the essence of the Gita. The son tells the same truth as the Father ... or he is not a son.

Being at a temple the midnight before is an unforgetable experience.

But his dreams can wake him up.

What happened to Caitya-guru, surrender, buddhi-yogam, Caitanya's sankirtana? I hate it when I'm being played.

Srila Prabhupada in San Francisco 1967:<blockquote>If you want to enjoy this material world by changing different... Because you have to change your body. You are making your next body in this body. There is no certainty what kind of body you are making, but you are responsible for making your next body. As I have several times discussed that the, at the time of death, the mental condition will help you to have another next body, mental condition. So if your mental condition is very nice, whatever you think, God has given you chance: you get next immediately. Similarly, if you think of KRSNa, then your next body is like KRSNa. Therefore KRSNa consciousness is so important. What is the advantage of KRSNa consciousness? If you acquire the body like KRSNa, sac-cid-Ananda vigraha [bs. 5.1], eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, then your botheration of this constant change of bodies, bhUtvA bhUtvA pralIyate [bg. 8.19], you become relieved from this business. Nobody wants this, but because we want to enjoy this material world, so we have to accept it. So this is going on. Sarvasya cAhaM hRdi sanniviSTo [bg. 15.15]. buddher jAgaraNaM svapnaH suSuptir iti vRttayaH tA yenaivAnubhUyante so 'dhyakSaH puruSaH paraH [sB 7.6.25] Now he's giving another hint, that "We have got our three stages of activities." What are those? Intelligence. We are working intelligently while we are awake. Just like we are not asleep, so whatever we work, oh, we work very intelligently, as far as we have got intelligence. Then when we sleep, our intelligence stops. Then mind works. So according to the mind, mind is taking me sometimes somewhere. I am thinking that "I am flying." I am thinking, "I am on somebody's place" or "I have become king." Or "I have become poverty." Or "Somebody is... Some tiger is eating me," and so many things, you sleeping, you dreaming. This is another stage, active stage. Then sleeping stage. And then another stage is which is called deep sleep, deep sleep. Just like you are under chloroform or LSD. That is a kind of sleep only. It is not, does not mean that you have become free from this material bondage. You are simply under some mental condition, sleeping condition. SuSuptiH. Just like our death. What is this death? Death means a sound sleep for seven months. That's all. A sound sleep for seven months. As soon as I give up this body, I enter into another body in sound sleep. And sound sleep, just like you are sleeping sound, somebody is taking you away to another place. You do not know. I have got experience. I have got, underwent some, some surgical operation. So I was under chloroform. So I did not know when I was operated, when I was in the operation table, then who brought me again to my bed. And in this way I did not... But when gradually I got my consciousness, I remember still, that I am sleeping, and then I am dreaming. Then I come to consciousness, active consciousness. This is the position. So there are three stages. So when you are very sound sleep, you do not know what is happening, but you are still there. You are not dead. Therefore soul is never dead, even it is unconscious. Just remember this chloroformic condition. You were not dead. Similarly, when you change your body, by nature's way, you wanted certain kind of body, so nature takes you. Nature takes you to such a father and mother and you are placed into the semina of similar father, and by sexual intercourse the father puts the semina in the mother's body, and the mother develops your body, particular. If you are put into the mother dog, then you develop the body of a dog. And if you are put in the mother god, then you develop the body of a god. This the process. Daive, uh, daiva-netreNa. That carrying out, from this body to another body, that is not in your hands. That is not scientific, scientist's hand or experimental, I say, philosopher's hand. It is completely under the hand of the material nature. Therefore Bhagavad-gItA says that daivI hy eSA guNa-mayI mama mAyA duratyayA [bg. 7.14]. The material nature is so powerful that your so-called fighting against the material nature is simply waste of time. You cannot. You cannot, by material science, transfer yourself from this planet to another planet or according to your desire. No. That will be managed by laws of nature, material nature. So you are transferred. You are transferred to a certain body, and you develop a similar body, and then you come out and enjoy. Because you wanted to enjoy certain type of things, so unless you have got certain type of body... Just like the hog: it wanted to eat certain types of nonsense, so therefore it has been given the body so that it can very pleasantly eat stools. You see? Without that hog's body, nobody can eat stool.</blockquote>

It may cause people to think about what the difference is between them and the creatures. The truth may be too frightening for them. They seem to have no difficulty killing humans to satisfy their greed; I guess there's not much chance that they will reconsider killing the creatures for their avarice.

Melbourne 1975: PrabhupAda: Because the whole world was merged into water. So evolution takes place from aquatics, fish. Then, as the water dries up, there was vegetation, plants. Plants, creepers, trees. Then, gradually, the insects, moths, reptiles, serpents, they come out. And then, from insects, the birds, varieties of birds, and aquatics, 900,000. And eleven hundred thousand, 1,100,000 species of these insects and reptiles. And one million varieties of birds. And then beasts, animals, four-legged, there are three million varieties. So all together this is eight million. Huh? No? [gHari's note: in another conversation Srila Prabhupada mentions "Then trees, plants, two millions, twenty lakhs" thus totalling 8,000,000 non-human forms] Australian devotee: 400,000. PrabhupAda: No, total human being, 400,000 species. Altogether, 8,400,000 species of living entities. So these are coming, evolution, by the laws of nature. You cannot stop it. The laws of nature, you cannot interfere. In this way we come to the human form of body, and especially civilized human being. Supposedly, it is the Aryans. The Aryan family, they are the topmost civilized group amongst the living entities. Now, in this life one has to enquire about himself that what is the difference between me and the dog? Why I am claiming a better position than the dog? What is the difference? The difference is that a human being, if he endeavors, he can understand his real constitutional position and he can understand God also. God. Therefore in the human society, civilized human society, there is some sort of religious system. It does not matter whether it is Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion, or Buddha religion. There is some religion in the civilized human society. Journalist: Civil what, sir? PrabhupAda: In the civilized human society there is some system of religion. So that system of religion means try to understand God. Religion means the law given by God. So civilized human beings, they are trying to understand God and His laws. That is called religion. Now the difference between dog and me is that I can try to understand what is God, what is my position; the dog cannot understand. Dog means the animals. They cannot understand. So that is the difference between a human being and a dog. If we give up religion or the method to understand God and our relationship with Him, then we will remain dog. Then we remain dog. We are not human being. So at the present moment the so-called human society, civilized human society, is giving up the conception of God, understanding God, especially the Communist party. They are openly declaring that "We don't believe in God." But those who are not Communists, they, lip sympathy, they say that "Yes, we believe in God," but actually they do not believe. So practically the entire human society is now becoming godless. That is very dangerous position. And we have already come to that dangerous position. There are so many problems, and recently we have heard that New York City, the most important city in the world, they are in a problem, that they cannot keep the city very nicely maintained and clean, and they asked for help, some millions of dollars, and the federal government has refused. In this way the godless society will have to meet so many problems of life, and if they want solution of all these problems, they must take to God consciousness or KRSNa consciousness. So that is our sum and substance of the movement, KRSNa consciousness, the International Society for KRSNa Consciousness. So we are trying to... It is very simple method. Anyone can accept it by chanting and dancing and eating. And if one does not like this method--he wants to understand the philosophy--we have got fifty books of four hundred pages, you can see all these books. Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.24.29: <center> sva-dharma-niSThaH zata-janmabhiH pumAn viriJcatAm eti tataH paraM hi mAm avyAkRtaM bhAgavato 'tha vaiSNavaM padaM yathAhaM vibudhAH kalAtyaye </center> sva-dharma-niSThaH--one who is situated in his own dharma, or occupation; zata-janmabhiH--for one hundred births; pumAn--a living entity; viriJcatAm--the post of Lord BrahmA; eti--gets; tataH--thereafter; param--above; hi--certainly; mAm--attains me; avyAkRtam--without deviation; bhAgavataH--unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; atha--therefore; vaiSNavam--a pure devotee of the Lord; padam--post; yathA--as; aham--I; vibudhAH--demigods; kalA-atyaye--after the annihilation of the material world. A person who executes his occupational duty properly for one hundred births becomes qualified to occupy the post of BrahmA, and if he becomes more qualified, he can approach Lord Siva. A person who is directly surrendered to Lord KRSNa, or ViSNu, in unalloyed devotional service is immediately promoted to the spiritual planets. Lord Siva and other demigods attain these planets after the destruction of this material world. PURPORT This verse gives an idea of the highest perfection of the evolutionary process. As described by the VaiSNava poet Jayadeva GosvAmI, pralaya-payodhi jale dhRtavAn asi vedam **. Let us begin tracing the evolutionary process from the point of devastation (pralaya), when the whole universe is filled with water. At that time there are many fishes and other aquatics, and from these aquatics evolve creepers, trees, etc. From these, insects and reptiles evolve, and from them birds, beasts and then human beings and finally civilized human beings. Now, the civilized human being is at a junction where he can make further evolutionary progress in spiritual life. Here it is stated (sva-dharma-niSThaH) that when a living entity comes to a civilized form of life, there must be sva-dharma, social divisions according to one's work and qualifications. This is indicated in Bhagavad-gItA (4.13): cAtur-varNyaM mayA sRSTaM guNa-karma-vibhAgazaH "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." In civilized human society there must be the divisions of brAhmaNa, kSatriya, vaizya and zUdra, and everyone must properly execute his occupational duty in accordance with his division. Here it is described (svadharma-niSThaH) that it does not matter whether one is a brAhmaNa, kSatriya, vaizya or zUdra. If one sticks to his position and properly executes his particular duty, he is considered a civilized human being. Otherwise he is no better than an animal. It is also mentioned herein that whoever executes his occupational duty (sva-dharma) for one hundred births (for instance, if a brAhmaNa continues to act as a brAhmaNa) becomes eligible for promotion to Brahmaloka, the planet where Lord BrahmA lives. There is also a planet called Sivaloka, or SadAzivaloka, which is situated in a marginal position between the spiritual and material worlds. If, after being situated in Brahmaloka, one becomes more qualified, he is promoted to SadAzivaloka. Similarly, when one becomes even more qualified, he can attain the VaikuNThalokas. The VaikuNThalokas are targets for everyone, even the demigods, and they can be attained by a devotee who has no desire for material benefit. As indicated in Bhagavad-gItA (8.16), one does not escape material miseries even if he is elevated to Brahmaloka (Abrahma-bhuvanAl lokAH punar Avartino 'rjuna). Similarly, one is not very safe even if he is promoted to Sivaloka, because the planet of Sivaloka is marginal. However, if one attains VaikuNThaloka, he attains the highest perfection of life and the end of the evolutionary process (mAm upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate). In other words, it is confirmed herein that a person in human society who has developed consciousness must take to KRSNa consciousness in order to be promoted to VaikuNThaloka or KRSNaloka immediately after leaving the body. TyaktvA dehaM punar janma naiti mAm eti so 'rjuna (Bg. 4.9). A devotee who is fully in KRSNa consciousness, who is not attracted by any other loka, or planet, including Brahmaloka and Sivaloka, is immediately transferred to KRSNaloka (mAm eti). That is the highest perfection of life and the perfection of the evolutionary process.

I am a servant of ahankara, and a servant of his servants. Pity me.

A new approach to establishing vedic-tattva - the courts may decide this question: Monkey battle for 'person' status VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- In some ways, Hiasl is like any other Viennese: He indulges a weakness for pastry, likes to paint and enjoys chilling out by watching TV.But he doesn't care for coffee, and he isn't actually a person -- at least not yet. In a closely watched test case that could set a global legal precedent for granting basic rights to apes, Austrian animal rights advocates are waging an unusual court battle to get the 26-year-old male chimpanzee legally declared a "person." Hiasl's supporters argue that he needs that status to become a legal entity who can receive donations and get a guardian to look out for his interests. "Our main argument is that Hiasl is a person and has basic legal rights," said Eberhart Theuer, a lawyer leading the challenge on behalf of the Association Against Animal Factories, a Vienna animal rights group. "We mean the right to life, the right to not be tortured, the right to freedom under certain conditions," Theuer said. "We're not talking about the right to vote here." The campaign was launched earlier this year after the animal sanctuary where Hiasl (pronounced HEE-zul) and another chimp, Rosi, have lived for the past 25 years went bankrupt. Activists want to ensure the two apes don't wind up homeless if the shelter closes. Both have already suffered trauma: They were captured as babies in Sierra Leone in 1982 and smuggled in a crate to Austria for use in experiments at a pharmaceutical research laboratory. Customs officers intercepted the shipment and turned the chimps over to the shelter. Their food and veterinary bills run about 5,000 euros (US$6,800) a month. Donors have offered to help, but there's a catch: Under Austrian law, only a person can receive personal donations. "If we can get Hiasl declared a person, he would have the right to own property. Then, if people wanted to donate something to him, he'd have the right to receive it," said Theuer, who has vowed if necessary to take the case to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France. Austria isn't the only country where primate rights are being debated. Spain's parliament is considering a bill that would endorse the Great Ape Project, a Seattle-based international initiative to extend "fundamental moral and legal protections" to apes. If Hiasl gets a guardian, "it will be the first time the species barrier will have been crossed for legal 'personhood,"' said Jan Creamer, chief executive of Animal Defenders International, which is working to end the use of primates in research. Paula Stibbe, a Briton who teaches English in Vienna, petitioned a district court to be Hiasl's legal trustee. On April 24, Judge Barbara Bart rejected her request, ruling that Hiasl didn't meet the two key tests: He is neither mentally impaired nor in an emergency. Although Bart expressed concern that awarding Hiasl a guardian could create the impression that animals essentially enjoy the same legal status as humans, she didn't rule that he could never be considered a person. Martin Balluch, a scientist who heads the Association Against Animal Factories, since has asked a federal court for a ruling on the guardianship issue. "Chimps share 99.4 percent of their DNA with humans," he said. "OK, they're not homo sapiens. But they're obviously also not things -- the only other option the law provides." Not all Austrian animal rights activists back the legal challenge. Michael Antolini, president of the local Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, said he thinks it's absurd. "I'm not about to make myself look like a fool" by getting involved, said Antolini, who worries that chimpanzees eventually could gain broader rights, such as copyright protections on their photographs. But Stibbe, who brings Hiasl sweets and yogurt and watches him draw, paint and clown around by dressing up in knee-high rubber Wellington boots, insists he deserves more legal rights "than bricks or apples or potatoes." "He can be very playful but also thoughtful," she said. "Being with him is like playing with someone who can't talk." A date for the appeal hasn't yet been set, but Hiasl's legal team already has lined up several expert witnesses. Theuer said they include Jane Goodall, the world's foremost observer of chimpanzee behavior, who revolutionized research on primates during the 1960s when she studied them at close range in Tanzania. "When you see Hiasl, he really comes across as a person," Theuer said. "He has a real personality. It strikes you immediately: This is an individual. You just have to look him in the eye to see that." http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/05/04/austria.chimp.ap/index.html

Guru is neither Krsna-tattva nor Vishnu-tattva. Guru is in the Jiva-tattva category, as Srila Prabhupada clarifies here: <BLOCKQUOTE>Japan 1972: Devotee: <b>On ekAdazI, we can offer the Deity grains</b>? PrabhupAda: <b>Oh yes. But not guru. EkAdazI observed by jIva-tattva, not by ViSNu-tattva.</b> We are fasting for clearing our material disease, but RAdhA-KRSNa, Caitanya MahAprabhu... Caitanya MahAprabhu also may not be offered grains because He is playing the part of a devotee. Only RAdhA-KRSNa, JagannAtha can be offered grains. Otherwise, Guru-GaurAGga, no. And the prasAdam should not be taken by anyone. It should be kept for next day. What is that? </BLOCKQUOTE>

SrIla PrabhupAda: Whether on this planet or on another planet, that is not the point. The point is that all species exist and keep on existing by the arrangement of nature. We learn from the Vedic texts that there are <B>8,400,000</b> species established. They may be in your neighborhood or they may be in my neighborhood--the number and types are fixed. But if you simply study your neighborhood, it is not perfect knowledge. Evolution we admit. But your evolutionary theory is not perfect. Our theory of evolution is perfect. From the Vedas we know that there are <B>8,400,000</b> forms of bodies provided by nature, but the soul is the same in all, in spite of the different types of body. There is no change in the soul, and therefore the Bhagavad-gItA [5.18] says that one who is wise, a paNDita, does not see the species or the class; he sees oneness, equality. PaNDitAH sama-darzinaH [bg. 5.18]. One who sees to the bottom sees the soul, and he does not find there any difference between all these species.

8,400,000. Modern science is still only part way there in counting them (seems i remember that they're at a few million now on planet earth).

Perspective beyond. In case anyone missed it the first time (like I did):

Like sooo holier than thou, dude. The truth is that both religions, all religion, religion involves surrender to Krsna. Period. Very few can do this - whether Vaisnava, Christian or Muslim. If we cannot see the few hundred surrendered souls who outwardly act like Vaisnavas, then how can we expect to see the few surrendered souls who act like Christians externally?

What was he smoking? The rasta man docta of sock: http://www.rastafarispeaks.com/cgi-bin/forum/archive1/config.pl?read=46475

Ha! He admits he's from Venus? Will we listen to an alien? Neither the Martians nor the Venusians can be trusted. Everyone remembers Zoran, the planet that is now the asteroid belt ... the Martians never actually found weapons of mass destruction on Zoran.

That was so distasteful. Devotees should not 'clarify and correct' it, but rather burn it. Only an uninformed idiot can entertain even a word of it. It reminds me of the 'Mohammad is Kalki' idiots.