JRdd

Good old (young) Raghunath. Such a good heart on his shouldeers. I really must get in touch. Love him.

RadhaRani Radha Raman Radha Renaissance Rest and Respite Rip van Rinkle

Death is this world. Life is that world. Today I feel like I went to everybody's funeral. Yours, the victims of the World Trade Center, and all the rest of us. I think the shock of being in this world finally hit me and now I am dying of thirst. Literally. I never cried so hard in my memory. Caranamrta would about hit the spot right now. Which reminds me, my daughter Caranamrta is due here soon and I was gonna make her zucchini bread. Srila Prabhupada said our children are our Deities. Kanea is my main child though. He gets to eat first, but I know He will leave her some. May your plane be made of flowers.

No can't imagine. All I see is death.

I like that, fall to the ground and it lifts us up, missed that somehow. Thanks for all the contributions Prabhus, thanks for taking this seriously, thank you Audaryalila prabhu for taking the time to share; every bit of it is useful, food for thought. For myself I think it was falsa bravado in a very dark moment to entertain the idea of contriving to meet someone outside the devotee community. I really have no taste for it, nor can I approach relationships in such a calculating way. My only other alternative, therefore, is just to surrender to Krsna's will, and only when I succeed in doing so will I be happy, no matter what happens around me or to change my lifestyle. I can see though how this meeting with your wife, Audarylila was natural and compatible, seems to be a match made in heaven, meaning one conducive to spiritual growth. For me, this hankering for association is eating me alive and I have to somehow let go of it. I want my tears to be transformed into tears fo seaparation from Radha and Krsna. I need your prayers and support that I can simply surrender to Krsna's will. And I will pray the same for all of you good souls. Have a good life, filled with consciousness of the Lord in all that you do. aspiring to be of service, Jayaradhe

Oh shush up will you!

Hm. I notice this thread is being (perhaps studiously) ignored. Feelings are pretty scary eh? Hope I didn't ruffle anyone's ridges. Good morning souls. Jiv jago!!!

NO!!! Not Maitreya! He was only joking! He needs to fulfill his Vrindaban adventure! Besides, we need his McAlfisms here.

I have been trying to pinpoint this myself. I am almost sure it took place after he left the planet. But it was so vivid, he was really really there, that it almost in one way seems irrelevant as to whether it was before or after, if you get what I mean. I have heard that when the guru appears in your dream it is truly him (so long as there is no distortion). Does anyone else know of this or if there is an actual quote? I forgot an important point in my prayer before I had this dream. Since years before, when they introduced karmi clothes and other ploys on sankirtan, and began emphasizing money, I found it very difficult to go out, so remained mostly in the temple apart from harinam and visiting FOLK members in their homes, etc. (Of course, in the temple there are many many opportunities also to help others in Krsna consciousness, including the other devotees, but also hosting the visitors nicely). So anyway, at the time of this devotee behaving like this toward me, it was a Christmas marathon. I was frail in health but wished to assist those who were going out, and also wished to do a little book distribution myself. So I went along for a few days on this trip. And immediately got sick. But still I was trying to assist the others in the little group. And that's when this thing started. I began to feel Maya coming in the form of feeling inadequate, feeling frustrated that I couldn't do more. So in my prayer to Srila Prabhupada I asked him to help me be stronger, to overcome the weaknesses in me and develop more taste for this sankirtan movement. But he told me I was fine as I was. I felt he was telling me not to worry. Oh and I remember looking at his feet and wanting to rub them for him. But I can't remember if I actually masaged them or not. So I probably didn't. Let's hear more sublime dreams. Good morning and thank you for helping me remember nice things already as I woke up feeling emotionally challenged, and vulnerable to this world. love, Jayaradhe

Hari bol valaya! (you don't need to hang out down here alone talking to yourself) So where is this little yellow duck of msn? I want one! (gotta take what I can get too) JR

This is a little off the point of my thread, BB prabhu. I am not picking at faults. I am talking about (among other things) the futility in false renunciation--among men and women both. Basically I aim to encourage devotees to associate with each other, and in this case, in this thread, because this is something which pains me, personally, so much, I am narrowing that down to the discussion of the merits of marriage. I am sorry if I did not express that clearly enough. I also hope to hear constructive contributions from those interested in the ideas I have presented, that's all. I really don't want to fight. Honestly. (That's your job ) sincerely, Jayaradhe

I cried reading your post, Mr das. You expressed the tragedy and the truth so exactly. then there are those of us, like myself, who have Srila Prabhupada as my center, and who thanks to you have now had much exposure to your wonderful Sri Guru, and I never could bear--and now bear even less--divisiveness. I find myself delighting in the association of other disciples and lovers of my diksa guru, but too often, in the company of some, also a hesitance in bringing up the words of other great acaryas in our line for fear of inviting offense. So I too am an outsider of sorts, rarely finding that place where I can openly, freely say whatever I want. However I have been much encouraged on my visits to Berkeley temple, where I have been grradaully getting to know the devotees better, and I delight now in telling you that i noticed a genuine appreciation of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. Devotees were speaking spontaneously about him, quoting things he had said, in idfferent instances, and one couple I knew expressed regret over not having read more of him earlier on. I think this temple is unusual, however, in so many ways. It is a very very special temple. With many humble joyful souls, whose hearts are open. Thanks for continuing to share your thoughts here and the sublime words of your Guru Maharaja, who is also my teacher. ys, Jayaradhe

False renunciation or true association? Hare Krsna prabhus, Please accept my fallen obeisances. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga! I would like to put to you something that has been strongly on my mind, and in my heart, and deep within my soul, and of which I am so convinced to be true that I feel it is my job to share it. If some are offended or feel the finger is being pointed at them, please forgive me, for that is not at all my intention here, although admittedly many of those whom I associate with, both here and otherwise, contribute to the mix of my learning experiences. I hope there is some light of inspiration, somehow, for others, in what I have to say. About ten years ago the council in England (mostly men, and one token woman), headed by Sivaram Maharaja, invited a handful of women to present their perspectives on why marriages had such a disastrous record amongst devotees, as well as any suggestions we might have to help improve things. The theme I chose was false renunciation, and to make my presentation hit home more vividly, I gave examples from my own failed marriage, which was comprised of eight years of living with a person who criticised me daily, did not offer one word of encouragement, and absolutely withheld affection and solace–not only when I got news of my brother’s sudden death, but even when I was heartbroken the morning after losing my baby. Anyway, after this meeting, Godbrothers came to hug me (deciding then and there that hugs were a beginning in healing the wounds of a family which felt anything but familial) and thank me for my presentation. One prominent devotee man was tearful as he spoke, and apologised on behalf of himself and any man who had ever treated a woman mean-spiritedly, coldly, or offensively in any way. But– I bring this up again because this coldness, this false renunciation, this behaviour which is can often be actually cruel and UNvaisnava-like, is as much (if not more) of a problem now, as it was then. It is apparent to me in different ways these days, however, as I am rarely around devotees, and also times have changed. I will explain in a moment how I see this false picture these days, from where I stand now, but first I would like to say that the marriages which I do see, which have endured over the years, impress me very much. I know that some if not all of these true friendships evolved through trials and hard work, but I would also venture to say it impresses me that there is a common facet in all of them. And this facet is humility. What do I mean by humility? I mean a willingness to admit to oneself and the other that it is damn hard in this world, that I am nothing without my guru, and that knowing this of ourselves we agree to help each other as much as we can, reminding each other to keep on keeping on, encouraging each other in our practices, and to not pretend to be anything other than what we are at this given moment in time. I see joy in the faces of these couples, I see they are also comforted in each others’ association, and I see, despite this comfort, much enthusiasm, for they are among the best association one could ask for–“imperfect” as they (self-admittedly) are. Now the flip side of this approach to relationships is to withhold affection, to not appreciate others, and to prefer hiding in one’s own little world, over committing to creating something wonderful with others. This is what is meant by grhamedhi consciousness. To choose wallowing in one’s anarthas over associating with devotees. And this is what I see today, and it occurs among the unmarried as well as the married. There is nothing renounced about retreating to one’s own little world, if that world is full of anarthas. If one is admitting to anarthas, one is obviously not ready for renunciation--doesn’t that make sense? One will not be more protected from the modes of material nature by suppressing one inclination (i.e. to be with a woman) while indulging in another. Doesn’t this make sense??? I’m not saying those anarthas suddenly disappear–not am I suggesting anyone should shame another for these attachments–but truly, nurturing relationships, which attempts to encourage sadhana and more, have a lot to be said for themselves. Someone tonight was telling me of a dear devotee she once knew, who killed himself. He was a real nice guy, devotional, non-misogynistic, someone a Vaisnavi would have been happy to have married. Now the night before he did this to himself, he poured his heart out to another devotee, about how disheartened he was over the disastrous devotee marriages, and how fearful he was of being married though he was so inclined to be, and how he felt he could not go on as a brahmacari either. Sad, prabhus, huh? What I am driving at is that there are a lot of lonely people, devotees, wonderful souls, who could be sharing their lives with someone else ( I mean face it, who is actually going to move into a temple for association?), and who could gradually be actually growing out of the habits that bind them to this world, keep them in a rut, hinder healthy spiritual growth. Now I will be frank here, risk playing the fool for the sake of getting this message across, and admit that I myself expend a lot of energy just trying to bear up under the stress of being alone for so long. It is not natural, whatever anyone may say. And it is not recommended by our acaryas. So here is the thing: This keeping to one’s own world, of self-admitted anarthas, is not the road to renunciation. It isn’t. This road does not lead to Krsnaloka. If one owns up to anarthas one is not ready for renunciation, and if one thinks he or she is being renounced, or that renunciation will somehow just come, it’s a lie. How can men think it is better to be alone, in that situation, than to associate with a Vaisnavi? I firmly believe that men could COMPLETELY eradicate the sins of all their previous exploits of women just by protecting one devotee woman–just by commiting to one woman. And that this is a service, which is very pleasing to Krsna. It takes a leap, it takes selflessness, but it also has its own spiritual rewards. Please don’t misunderstand me here. I am not expecting anyone to about face change just because of this one little post. Nor am I petitioning here on my own behalf, though I am advertising the advantages and virtues of Vaisnava partnerships. (I myself am going through a process of trying to let go of years of thinking or wishing that Krsna will send someone to me. The marrying kind seem to be married already. I am not at all attracted to “non”devotee men but am mulling over the idea of asking feedback from those who have successfully married nondevotees, simply because I can not be a brahmacari in this lifetime, and may have to roll up my sleeves and take action–Krsna told Arjuna to go for it, didn’t he?-- to go for the lesser of the evils, of trying to cope in this difficult world alone; maybe this is one way we make devotees, who knows?) I am simply putting this out here in hopes that it will begin a process within some, or maybe just food for thought, and also to receive thoughts from others about this and, more than anything, to encourage those younger devotees who seem to have a much more balanced approach to marriage than those of my generation have shown. Be good to your wives, my sons and younger siblings. Appreciate and love them and you will together be able to cultivate a gratifying increase in loyalty, love, and a real blossoming of enthusiasm for spreading Krsna consciousness, in yourselves, and in others. It could be very interesting to hear the thoughts of those in younger bodies as well as the more seasoned. May we all find the good association we need in this lifetime, in whatever way it may come, and not complacently succumb to any ideas that we need drag our existence here out over lifetimes. (Now you can take out your sticks and flog me. I’m ready.) Thanks, Jayaradhe

Well I hope my confusion doesn't confuse others, but I am beginning to think I don't know what to think. I am just trying to be honest here with this moment of doubt I have. My daughter, who has been living in the woods for a few months, has been having prayer meetings and light focuses with other rainbow kids who arrived in the past few days. That, and the strongly pacifist leanings of most people I know around here, takes little to restimulate similar sentiments strong within me, and then I think: Is it better to pray it away? Hm, even as I wrote that the answer came: both are necessary. Right? Or can it be done without the violence? I mean after all, we're talking miracles here anyway, as far as i am concerned, tryng to ferret out 10,000 people willing to do the suicide thing, and countless thousands of others willing to do all they can to support the terrorism. Then, too, if chivalry is dead, what is it all for anyway? simply gross aggressions and counteraggressions? Not meaning to demoralise, prabhu (or anyone else), just giving you an opportunity to defeat this doubt. Come on, you can do it. JR

NECTAR, Paramaradhya prabhuji!!! Thanks! I pray Krsna blesses you more and more in your efforts! (and yes i know about the Taurus thing, true they always ultimately do what THEY want to do. It's STYLE as you say.)(not stubborness as other say --that's mules they're talking about. Not bulls. I mean cows.)

rolling on the floor laughing my ass off BTW, I noticed you using BTW. Was this some kind of trick?

One time I was being persecuted by someone who behaved as if I needed to serve them hand and foot because they were distributing books and I was "only" doing temple service. The mentality disturbed me, made it harder for me to retain my sense of humility, kind of like the arrogance was contaminating it. I knew from Srila Prabhupada of course that all service is equal, and myself had felt humble even to a new bhakta potwasher. I perceived everyone as having something very special inside them. But anyway as I said, I let this person's attitude toward me get to me, so that night I prayed, crying, earnestly, to Srila Prabhupada, to let me be humble, even to this devotee, and to not feel resentment toward her, and to not let me become arrogant in this resentment that I felt coming on. Srila Prabhupada came in my dream, and he was smiling, so so kindly, so sweetly, and I was at his feet, and he put his hand on my head and said in the most beautifully gentle and loving voice, "You are fine. Just as you are."

Because it's their "OWN". and I mean these are the same people who think nothing of smashing insects, who torture and eat animals, kill babies in the womb.... Right on: {quote]In the eye of the supreme, a life lost is a life lost, whether it be American or otherwise.

I just had to hitchhike home as somehow I missed my bus while talking to someone. I would have had to wait three hours for the next bus and I was, well, hungry (no comments, mc ) and needed to get home and stuff. It was only six miles to my town, and I could have wlaked it if not for all the stuff I was carrying, but no one stopped for an hour! I was starting to question the humanity of man then immediately my petty perspective was put in its place, remembering all the acts of humanity witnessed these past few days. So I told it, No, don't even go there. Besides, Krsna is going to send someone special. And then this really nice man stopped. He had Buddha in his car and was obviously a decent kind of person, and I showed him my temple room and Krsna paintings, etc. Who knows what Krsna orchestrates and why. As I sat there propping up my arm, trying to get a ride, I wondered why I expect things to jsut fall into place. Spoiled American mentality maybe? Or something deeper, some impersonalistic perspective? Don't know, but something really wrong there.... My family, though ignoring me, include me on their list of email grhamedhi katha (guess they like to keep up a semblance of not doing the unthinkable: excluding any blood member). I am astounded to observe their dialogues this week (I mean more astounded than usual), expressing direness about getting dryers fixed and air conditioners installed and sh-- like that. My God. Whew! (edited to fix html) [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-17-2001).]

I bet part of it is peoples' misconception that America is so powerful as to be almost untouchable. My daughter was saying that a friend of her said something like "So what? People are dying all the time". And my daughter said, yes, but this time it is a chance to be reminded of that, like a wake-up call. I agreed with her, and added that you really can't in a sense blame Americans for being complacent when they get so few in your face situations like this. I mean they are largely sans gurus to help keep reminding them of the temporal nature of this world....Thanks God for stepping in though. Always offering opportunities for the soul to turn back toward Him. Sometimes people need a great big jolt. (I say all this as a separate issue from the nonphilosophical side of thess events, fo course--which is that the terrorism should not be allowed to continue, anymore than one would allow an aggressor in the home to take advantage of wife and children.) Just ramblin, as mudmon says....

This is all wonderful to hear. I remember in Bhaktivedanta Manor we used to have wodnerful celebrations of Jesus birthday. Really, unforgettable. Christmas revues, Christmas dinner, extended family, etc. I keep a little picture of Jesus with children on my altar, and am seeking a frame for a larger print I got at a thrift store, also with children, that I just love. I am glad to hear that about Prabhupada saying that about Jesus on the altar. Makes it even better. Of course knowing Jesus is a pure devotee and shaktavesa avatar, I already felt my own inpsiration in making him more visible to me. JR

I too believe in the power and importance of laughter. Even when it seems inappropriate it is often just the exact medicine needed, or triggers off some deeper understanding, or heals on some level. Or even gives jsut a moment of respite, often necessary for re-energizing oneself. Thus the role of the heyoka in truly civilised societies.

I also have been impressed with Valaya's perspectives, and think of him as a moral comander in an army. Great views too, Mr das, solidly said, with accolades to the shastric, far more approriate here than the merely sattvic (although that is included in anything of right). Today I was with five women, we were writing and sharing poems (coincidentally none of us have television, thought I was the last of the oddballs), and of course at the end the discussion came up, that is on everyone's minds now. And they were unanimous in their disappointment at a poll taken Tuesday morning in Mt Shasta claiming that 70 percent of those polled were in favor of full retaliation. I did not know what to say in the face of such taken-for-granted pacifism. I would have had to provide much background, including my own life and beliefs in pacifism, and then the whole Vedic viewpoint, or at least that is the way it seemed to me, and this was a short chat before we dispersed. I was suprised in turn, to see the adamancy of these good women, who were into like holding the energy, focusing the light, etc. And I have to admit I felt a little wavery in myself \, as their positions spoke to my soul, which is why I am bringing this up: to reiterate Valaya's point that this must be unified as much as possible, for morale and focus. but like Mr Das I see the different sides of view too, and understand them well. thanks, JR

Thanks Atma, when I read that last night I was speechless. If we can't turn to the devotees for consolation who then do we turn to? Personally I would rather it be the devotees. And I would rather believe that the devotees, being personalists, would know how to nurture at such moments. Krsna never lets me fully enter that dark night of the soul, guess it's a case of Krsna never giving you more than you can take, though sometimes it feels like it. He sure is a real edge-pusher. But Reality the Beautiful can not be escaped. I thought I would try to forget about Him but He is just so out there, how can I? It's not possible. He is under my skin and I can't shake Him off. I can't wind back the pages to previous forgetfulness and try to assimilate myself into this emphemeral place we so often try to convince ourselves is home. Never did feel comfortable here anyway, so it would be very hard to fool myself that way. Well when Krsna pushed this fool to the edge and I looked out over the vastness, I saw Him smiling at me, with so much love that I knew He was not judging me, as I was so harshly doing for myself. He knows it is so hard for one who has been so envious, for so long, to pull oneself up by the bootstraps. He knows it is in fact impossible. Superhuman. Beyond the capabilities of a puny being such as myself. So He is not expecting much from me. Just like a good parent does not project their own wishes onto their children. All they want is love, and for their children to be happy. Krsna just wants our sincerity, our humility, and He wants us to become lowly beggars for His association. That's all. Srila Prabhupada and others in our Vaisnava line are showing us how to become such beggars. Yes, let's bring CC too! Of course! and can I bring Nectar of Devotion? We could leave out the microwave? yes, Jayaradhe

Thanks Valaya. I checked out the site. I think I will focus on visualising a prtective bubble around me though. It's much cheaper. GC, dunno how much sunlight is recommended and by whom, but I do know you need a lot of something, to counteract that awful lighting. Seems so primitive that in this day of high tech they still subject workers to that. It's cruel. I had to work in that as correspondence secretary for the BBT in England and it really made my system sick. I think if I were you I would download some info about how mad it is for you and casually sprinkle printouts all around your workplace, so workers, and bosses read it. I do that for doctors, give them printouts on alternative medicine, don't care if it ruffles their feathers or not, something is bound to hit hme, sometime. JR