JRdd

I also notice that things I didn't get "bashed" as you like to call it, until I dared to agree finally with someone in a female body. If someone feels inadequate it is nothing to do with what anyone else says on this thread. Never mind, I don't want to waste any more of my time on unreasonable persons. Rather I will Heed my Father's advice about fools. Be they in female or male bodies, doesn't matter to me. Apologies if any genuine offense has sprung from me. But no apologies if someone's ego ahs been bruised. My ego has taken a lot of brusing lately and I don't expect mollycoddling for it. I want the truth. Nothing less. JR

Okay I'm out of here. this has ceased to be a functional thread because some, while gender-bashing, themselves, whine (a men's word for when women do it) about being emasculated, male bashed, etc, when they have been given examples, and not just of men doing it, and yet refuse to present examples, from this thread, where male-bashing is going on. I am very sorry that our egos have become more important than bridging gaps and reaching higher understanding. What is the biggest shame is that these accusations, these sour grapes, come out of the blue, without any previous discussion about what is dissatisfyng. And it is so immature, to not be able to continue discussing an issue, just because people have different opinions and experiences. We should know by now that when we enter a discussion there will be differing views, and should be prepared to act as gentlepersons. And I am also tired of all these indrect messages, constantly, and you know who you are. It is fear and lust (anger arises from lust) and I am sorry it has interfered with fucntionality. Jayaradhe All Glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.

I truly believe that the success of both threads is due to the input of both men and women; this mix has made it vital and useful. I thank everyone here for contributing. It has been most engaging. Also I apologise (not!) if I have neglected to mention my many anarthas. I did so when it eas relevant. But I will not own others' projections and speculations about what is going on in my heart or mind. I also think this is sexist to cry out accusations of emasculation going on here. I know that my own femininity is not affected by any man's derogatory comments about women. Wish I could say more right now but it will have to wait. But Valaya I thought you were being a kind of on the sidelines good focalizer at times. (Are you on your period?) Though you yourself did not divulge much. Mahaksa prabhu, I am not sure what you think I am protecting in the confidentiality realm, but thanks anyway. Sorry I haven't emailed in so long. Just got caught up in so many things to do! ys, Jayaradhe

Valaya prabhu, I do not see how discussing honestly can disturb a mind, at least not in a way that is detrimental. I see it as auspicious. Also I wonder why you think they will have their claws out when MC returns, and why you think women don't forget wrongs done to them. These sweeping statements against a gender may not be so constructive. I can say for myself that I forget very quickly, sometimes to my apparent detriment, but I have a natural inclination to see the good heart underneath our external coverings. Most devotees don't actually hang on to things, at least as far as I can see. (Some things should not be forgotten however, until they are dealt with, and I mean the big things like the corruptions under the name of Srila Prabhupada's mission.) Now you feel free to also call the shots on me when you catch me doing the same, I don't mind. I think that is Suryaz's intention here to catch it and nip it in the bud. Not, as she mentioned, wait until it has blossomed (manifested on the physical). seeking harmony amongst the devotees, Jayaradhe

Very interesting, Suryaz. I like how you explained how sound is the beginning of external manifestation, and how important it is for us to correct our use of language. Also I appreciate your assessment of seduction. Reading that it occurred to me that I do not actually think of men as seducing me when they make approaches, and that’s because I don’t let it affect me. You make the point that one should seek in oneself where these feelings are coming from, advice which is good for all of us in any instance–I know I can’t be reminded of that too many times–and in this case, clearly it is victim mentality which seeks to accuse someone of seducing them. Oh she/he did it to me. Not taking responsibility for our own feelings and reactions. However, in the case of Rishi prabhu he owned his part in the tango, and I feel as Audaryalila in that his posts have been very helpful, and also reveal a sensitive and fairminded individual. Audaryalila, I also agree with everything you said here. Spot on. We need this balanced input. Valaya prabhu, in my opinion Suryaz's points about calling attention to how we use language is very pertinent to this topic. We have been raised in a sexist culture so we probably all use expressions which do not serve to bridge understandings and release us from unuseful modes of thinking. If we can just keep cool heads about us and not attack when someone makes sweeping derogatory statements about a gender, and instead address those issues as they come up, this could be a good experience for all. I say we keep with it, stay in for the long haul. Too many threads in the past have been abandoned just when we were making headway. Things can get a little scary sometimes. But if we realise the only thing we are really scared of is our own external conditions, which have nothing to do with the beautiful persons we really are, we could make mega strides in shedding our misconceptions and filling ourselves with the good stuff. You know the stuff I'm talking about. Just my opinion. Ys, Jayaradhe

Why should I? I don't want to play on that low level of exchange. The name should go, it's aa simple as that.

NO it wasn't your picture BB, not the Hilaryous one. It was the one that he put the link to. My name should go for sure. That is so creepy, don't care what you say.

Maitreya said: Suryaz said [quoting Rishi]: quote: My "fire and butter" analogy was rejected outright. I was "the man" and I was supposed to "protect". Well, okay, so I decided I would muster up all the strength that I could, to not allow myself to be seduced.” “not allow myself to be seduced”. What ????? poor victimized Rishi Maitreya: Nooo, women don't practice seduction,no way.Ha ha ha.That is evident in the chaste way they dress here in the West....If you want to be real and honest then at least admit that women do try to seduce men.I know men try to seduce women.If that fact isn't the most obvious basic thing to someone then this discussion has no hope. I'm glad you brought this out. I too felt the injustice in Suryaz's accusations, which is why I did not feel like jumping into the discussion. Sometimes even when we think we are being fair we are often too much affected by our pasts to give an objective analysis of the situation. So I think it is good when more speak up about this. The mind does funny twisty things, and I think we shoud be careful how we say things so that a whole gender does not feel unfairly attacked. Not because anyone needs to save face, but because as you say the conversation will not be useful otherwise. I think it would be good to discuss what seduction is, and also what can be interpreted as seduction by someone who may simply be flattering himself (or herself) or have wishful thinking. I know someone whose teacher told her they would not be having any intimate relationships because he was married. She was flabbergasted as, though she very much appreciated his inputs, and thought of him like an older brother, not once did intimacy ever cross her mind. No, that was not me, but I have had it happen too, where a man will accuse me of leading him on when such is not the case. Even when I would out and out tell them I have no intentions, they are too young for me (I'm not ageist but I have had men young enough to be my sons want me to be their girlfriend, and there is something to be said for maturity and experience), I am not interested in them that way, etc. etc., they still objectified me and projected their own intentions into their plans for me. Lust can blind one. Lust can also anger a person. These things I have seen. Admitting to that is not admitting to hatred of the opposite sex.It is just admitting to something every 11 year old already knows. Here is a fact that I have noticed and I'm sure the world may have seen an exception or two, maybe even three. Just because you have noticed it doesn't make it a fact. It means that has been your own observation, from your own point of reference, and not necessarily untainted by your own previous experiences. A woman who has been raped can not say men are rapists. Unless she is still dealing with her own sickness due to the abuse, and thus sees the wrold through those glasses. The woman wants to change the man.If the man changes she will lose respect for him.If he doesn't she will keep trying and complaining that "Oh woo is me,I've tried so hard in this relationship but he is so insensitive, he just won't improve the way I want him too.I guess I just love too hard.I just care too much." Wow. Sounds like you yourself are bringing up things from your past. Maybe projecting it into your present. I only say this because you accuse women of doing this, as well as stating that there may be a couple of exceptions. But leaving aside the unfair assertion that only women do this, and that most women do this, I would like to agree with the fact that the attitude of wanting to change someone else is the biggest mistake anyone ever made in any relationship, and it is something I have always been aware of and have always rebelled against, myself. That is why my daughter gets to be who she is, and evolve as she will. Guidiance, sure, being there for her, sure, even concern, sure--but not being disatisfied with the way she is for goodness sake! And I have never done this in ANY relationship I have been in, never tried to change any of my friends, or my husband, though I have had plenty try to change me. So here is one woman who doesn't do what you accuse us of doing, and I am sure I represent many more. Women, in fact, are generally known for having a yielding nature. That is not to say someone may not be hurt when someone does not treat them as they think a friend would. That is not the same as wanting to change a person. That is when the alarm bells go off, and one gets the heck out of there. And if the person ever does change, then maybe they can be friends again. That is not the same as trying to make the person change. It is being disappointed in the level of the friendship. Just like, when one person in the relationship feels distrusted by the other, then that person is no longer interested in the friendship. Doesn't that make sense? Because even though a lot of men like to ascribe to the principle of "Don't expect anything" (my ex always said this, and always withheld affection, respect, decent courtesy, and anything else he had), one DOES expect at least certain fundamental elements in any relationship, which includes trust, and reciprocation, and respectful treatment. I myself find it very easy to walk away from such a bereft relationship, as I always go for the heart. what's the point, otherwise? Contemplating the sense objects breeds lust.Lust brings frustration and anger.[For both sexes]Then bewilderment of memory intelligence is lost and we fall down deeper into the material muck. That is another reason I did not feel so attracted to this thread, although it could be a very useful discussion. I like the relationship thread because its starting point is where we could all really be by now. Not still stuck on all this bewilderment stuff all the time. Of course, not everyone will agree with that. But from where I stand at this point in my life, I find it more useful to discuss how to BRING devotees together, not all this angst about your gender is this, and mine is that. And I would like to add to that that seeking a suitable partner to share a life of Krishna consciousness with is NOT contemplation of the objects of the senses. It is maturely and honestly and even humbly recognising the present condition and seeking to make the most of it, to offer it to Krsna in the most dovetailing way possible, by associating and serving and enthusing one another in a spiritual way. By not nderstanding this sequence when we experience the anger then the blame for that rotten feeling gets shifted to the opposite party.They failed to make one happy.It works both ways. Yes, and that is why in any relationship the principle of no mental speculation is always most wise, for often people assume they know how another person is thinking, and this is an utter waste of time. One will inevitably project their own way of thinking into the other person's feelings of hurt, and that is where the real illusion lies. Best to dialogue, not accuse. And focus on one's own need for advancement. Nectar in the beginning and poison in the end.[remember this is sexism thread and not the relationship one]. A deep dark forest of bewilderment. Alfred So then how about poison in the beginning and nectar in the end? That is what the process of developing a higher taste, developing taste for the Holy Names, is about. ys, Jayaradhe [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-27-2001).]

http://www.geocities.com/visoka123/visoka/VCN/VNC.htm A very nice enthusing ezine by lovers of Srila Prabhupada. Contributions of articles, letters, poems, art, messages, etc invited. Current items include an article entitled "My dear sir why are you working so heard?", the amazing story of how Sri Gopal Jui came to Srila Gour Govinda Swami, and many other enlivening things to read. This is a fairly new ezine.

I make an appeal to have ChaitanyaChandra aka Supercow removed. He has now exceeded his own extensions by posting the link to a lewd photo (which he got on Random Axis' website) and to which he (CC) affixes my name. I've had it up to here with the gross remarks that go on from some of the men on these forums (you know who you are), but this takes the cake.

!!! eek!!!

I know. So insulting. Just like there's chocolate, then there's CHOCOLATE. Anyone who doesn't know the difference better sell something else.

OH hohohoho!

Hare Krsna, Audaryalila prabhu, All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga! Dandavats! Your input continues to be so valuable to me, and so I am sure it is to others also. I wish we could all be together I mean in a physical room, where we could speak back and forth as we go along. Anyway I wanted to pull up this post again as it shines like a diamond, which could be the reason why no one has touched it yet. Toxic shame and guilt bind us to this world, bind us to the psyches of our pasts. To top it all off, we often mistake these qualities for humility. It is a very fine line between spirit and matter. I walk that line all too often, and it seems that Krsna will have to carry me the rest of the way as my feet are getting too cut up to make it on my own. I am a bumbling and confused clown in this cosmos. These are my only two realisations: that I am a displaced fool who understands very little, and that Krsna is so kind and it is only by His causeless grace that I may be picked up out of this place. When I understand this I am free from the toxic kind of shame that prevents me from being honest about my position. It makes so much sense to me that there is a great facility in getting freed from the toxic bonds of this world by practicing confiding in one another--even sometimes publicly proclaming it too--about our state of consciousness. Then we know that our symptoms are universal and are simply a temporary condition, and that there is no need or usefulness in trying to pretend we are anything else. Conversely, that devotee who displays humility wins my respect, always. A very funny phenomena. You said: I have had many discussions with my wife with regard to confession and what the Gaudiya Vaishnava's do in this regard - in other words - is there an analogous sacrament in our tradition? What I have realized through these discussions and through taking my daughter to the classes leading up to her first confession is that the sacrament is very beautiful and requires not only introspection but a great deal of humility. It also involves quite a lot of austerity, tapa, which is how I explained the concept to my daughter. I told her about Lord Brahma sitting on the lotus in darkness and ignorance and hearing the word - tapa - and his performance of austerity which led to enlightenment. I don't know how many of you are ex-catholics, but for those that are, I want to tell you that the Catholic church has come a long way in the past few decades. It takes a lot of courage to share with another person the faults we have and the fall downs that we experience in our journey. The rite of reconcilliation is really quite like the concept of revealing your heart and mind to Sri Guru or an advanced Vaishnava in order to make advancement and seek ways of improving your situation. This is extremely interesting to me, and not only because I have a Catholic background too, and remember well the awe with which I received my First Holy Communion. (I was recently given a picture of me that day. Like a little angel.) I would be interested to hear how different it is now, for it does seem to go into more depth, as your post hints at. Who does the child talk with on this journey to making her first confession? And what are the austeries? Do you mean like saying the rosary? I would like to see how we as devotees can increase our ability to admit to ourselves, without discouragement, the realities in our thinking and thus move beyond false ego exhcnages with one another, which seek more to defend oneself than to make genuine breakthroughs with each other. One of the problems I have felt exists within Iskcon and the society of devotees in general is that fall downs and detours from the path of devotion are seen in such a negative light that devotees would rather 'pretend' that they don't have problems than deal with their own personal realities and strive for the day when they are truly free from anarthas. I think that Rishi's sharing of his relationship with his fiance serves to illustrate this point. Yes, and I was thinking as I read Rishi's story that how futile (besides being unfair, etc.) to harp on about acting human, for goodness sake. I mean it's not like we are on some perfect platform. Srila Prabhupada said like a toddler who, often falling while learning to walk, picks himself up again and keeprs trying, that is how we should be when we disappoint ourselves by our actions. Just keep going on with the process. It works. The process itself may be the atonement; what do you think? Certainly seems so to me, if the means equals the end. Every moment is an opportunity to be right There. Dwelling on our own or another's imperfections serves no purpose except to discourage us. It removes us from a loving aspect into one that seeks to punish (the self or another). I see harmonious relationships require the ability to love, support, and encourage one another, focusing positively and not on the things of this world, including our own obvious imperfections. My daughter and I have an understanding like this. Sometimes we may start to argue pettily, then one of us may see the ridiculousness of such an exercise, and turn it into a joke, sometimes by exaggerating the issue, other times by satirizing it, and sometimes simply by bursting into giggles. Immediate diffusion of the anger that had us in its thrall. Life is a stage, for sure. Life is ONLY a stage, a stage of real growth if we can just take that bull by the horns and shoot for the rhinoceros and rob the bank and not the corner store. It's a very interesting psychological dynamic. Catholics are told that they are sinners and that all are sinners. Of course we all know that Catholics are also very guilt ridden, but I don't think that they come close to the feelings of guilt and dejection of devotees who fall down. For Catholics there is the sacrament of reconcilliation where they can get spiritual counseling and work with their mentor through the years to improve themselves. Very interesting. My family are only showbottle Catholics who do not take advantage of these opportunites, so I did not know about this. Is the mentor a priest or nun? Or a lay person? I really feel that we could learn a lot from them in this regard. Opening up the heart and admitting our own faults is so hard, but so necessary if we really want to progress in life. You said it brother!!! On a completely differnt note, but certainly related to the topics in this thread, Tripurari Maharaja has commented that if a couple is engaged in serving Krsna and helping each other advance in Krsna consciousness there need not be seperation even in advanced age. The purpose of the renounced ashramas is to facilitate increased engagement in Krsna's service, but if that can be achieved through marriage there certainly is no reason to renounce it. Personally I think it is quite artificial to think that there is some formula that all devotees should follow. Each of us is unique and have unique living situations which requires different approaches. For some of us it will be best to eventually move into monk life, for others that would be a hindrance rather than a help. Your servant, Audarya lila dasa Very important point. We are, after all, personalists. No point in getting stuck on some tenet to the neglect of facilitating our Krsna conscious growth. Following the rules for the sake of following them....If we really care about our spiritual progress, we must understand it is not a cut and dried process, it is a matter of the heart. Thanks for helping me keep my heart and blinkers open, aspiring to be inspiring myself, Jayaradhe

Right on Valaya, another wonderful post from you. I love how you are right here with us, on these forums, giving it all you've got, not half-hearted, and this is how we go places in our discussions. This cyberspace is a real gift from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, a facility to inspire ourselves and others as we skip dance and stumble along the path back to Godhead. You are a good mediator and I like how you encourage the discussion to progress and not digress, when you make the points you have made here. I may not say much on this thread myself, but I am reading it. ys, Jayaradhe

Uh oh. what's that supposed to mean? I hope you didn't misunderstand me, Rishi prabhu, when I suggested developing the discussion of how WE use language. No way does that mean I take issue with anything you have said or are offended by antyhing you said. I don't even understand what was meant by "violence" in the context, nor other points being made. I tend to stay out of the fray, well as much as I can manage to, because I find discussions using "I" statements are less volatile that those which point the finger outward. In your resp[onses, you are using "I" statements. You are explaining yourself, your reasons and motivations. And I want to reiterate once again that I and others very much appreciate your input. You shed light on many important issues. Very rarely do we get such open stories from the men, and as a result, the discussion may appear also to be a malebashing fest, even when that is not the intention. We are all so sensitive, in different areas. So I hope you did not think I was trying to encourage anyone to bash you. I was thinking to pull it away from the personal into a more general discussion, which may or may not be as useful as the one currently under play here. I know that I could use an adjustment in the way I use language. That's all. Please keep them coming prabhu. ys, Jayaradhe

Also there are these: http://homepages.stayfree.co.uk/antardwp/cool/appndex/appendex.html A [page on the care of Gaura Nitai deities. http://www.avatara.org/chaitanya/links.cgi?2,f online Sri Caitanya Upanisad by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura http://www.webcom.com/~ara/col/books/CLAS/cc/ff.html online Lord Caitanya in Five Features by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada http://www.iskcon.net/prabhupada/deity.html Deity Worship in the Home Also my website has a few images: http://www.geocities.com/theopenheart Happy looking, Jayaradhe

Hare Krsna (above post got in here twice) [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-26-2001).]

More risks. I would like to bring up a subject that may well land me in the hall of notoriety for naiveness. Can men and women be friends? I have always believed so, and have always had male friends. But something that recently happened is giving me pause for wonder, not for the first time either. So I will offer a bit of background: The other day a friend asked how I felt about male friend. I told her I felt comfortable around him, that it was like being with a long lost brother. Nothing more, at least not at this point in time, I told her. However, she is a more conventional devotee than I, and as devotees often tend to jump to conclusions about male-female relationships, I have strong reasons to believe that she projected some of her own assumptions onto this person in a subsequent conversation she had with him. But as he will not talk to me directly about it, has cut off the communication channels, I can only guess that something like this happened. I have caught some comments of his that cause me to believe that he thinks I have intentions for him in my life. Although I am sad about this loss of friendship, if that is what it was, it is not a crippling sadness, for it was centred around Krsna consciousness, which is unaffected by external circumstances and remains with me (I was going to say “paltry as it is”, but immediately realized what an offensive thought that was–not humility at all–to believe that even a drop of Krsna consciuosness could be paltry!). Okay that is the background, which spurs me to write this. Now here is the next: I want to explain how I feel about friendships, and attractions to others. If anyone can feedback on this I will listen. My stance (flexible to change of course) is this: To become attracted to someone does not equal being out of control in that attraction, or projecting some future (such as marriage) in that attraction, any more that being attracted to or drawn to someone of the same gender means one has homosexual tendencies. I get enthused about my friendships, guess I go for it full hilt, like I do most things in my life, have never had time for boredom, and find acquaintances and grha-katha much less interesting. Now since I get attracted only to devotees, I see that attraction as being there due to the Supreme Lord’s all-attractive nature. I think I make mistakes in judgement when naively thinking that my enthusiasm in a friendship with a male will not be taken as anything other that what it is at that moment. And especially naive when applying it amongst the extended family of devotees. I am unconventional, but I forget that we have backgrounds of brahmacari-brahmacarinihood which must influence at least to some degree the attitudes of many of us toward the opposite sex (or is this only a devotee thing?). But even in my devotional life I have had such a mix of associates to do service alongside; in the early days this was due to the more innocent brother/sister lifestyles in the temples, but also I have worked on creative projects, plays, and other services involving a freer mix of devotees. So I tend to see male devotees as my brothers, and until and unless anything develops to indicate another aspect to the relationship, I treat it as such–like siblings. A women friend here or there may sometimes like to tease, or press me for more information about such a friendship, because they really don’t understand that about me. I may even be attracted to that male friend, but it does not mean I have some intentions I project. That is not to say that the thought of marriage never occurs to me; yes, it does at times, but it is not a thought that carries me away with it. I do feel that I gain some benefit out of the yangness that comes from having a male friend. That I will admit. Being unmarried, one can use a bit of that, for balance. I often get sense talked into me by one of the opposite sex, or other feedbacks which are helpful. Men think differently than women. And have a different kind of intelligence. Just like, I have friends who have wives. These friendships are safe, for both of us. For my part, I have always considered it most despicable when a woman comes between a husband and wife. Most despicable. In my long life of experience, I can say with confidence that you would never find me behaving in such a way as to attract a husband away from his wife. Though I have not had the opportunity for a real marriage, I consider marriages sacred. Similarly, you would not find me pushing myself at anyone, no matter how attracted I am, who makes it clear they are not interested in that way, and/or I don’t see them as marriage material, even though I am or have been attracted. Attraction is there among devotees. That’s the way I see it. Some affinities are stronger than others. We gravitate toward “our own kind”. These are my feelings on friendships in general as well as friendships between male and female. So whenever I am fraternizing with the devotees, here or elsewhere, that does not mean I have plans or motivations in the friendships (even if I am not closed to the idea of marriage), I simply find some of you very attractive–actually all of you are, just some more than others, as per my own taste or inclinations (birds of a feather kind of thing)–and rest assured it is because you are devotees that makes you attractive to me. It makes all your other qualities, strengths, quirks, weaknesses alike, endearing to me. I apologise with all my heart to anyone who feels I have represented myself differently from what I am attempting to convey in this post. I am the first to admit I may be at fault in regards to what very well may be a naive (unwise or unrealistic) outlook. And I invite anyone to offer their views on this particular matter of loving exchanges–friendships--between the genders. Is it playing with fire? Thank you so much for listening. aspiring to be increasingly useful, Jayaradhe (html edit) [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-26-2001).]

Excellent post, Swan. And welcome to the forums. Seems you have the skeleton for it, keep 'em em comin'. Interesting post too, Suryaz. It might be useful to develop the discussion of how we use language. Great other inputs too. I just wrote a post offline, I'm putting on the true association thread, so do not have time to respond to anything here now. later, JR

I see!!! Brother, for this you will not be sorry. I will come up with something better than the last. This is my vow.

Yeah well you oughta go see what I did to yours!!!

and giving all they have a ball (tee hee) (oops! sorry!) continue! (giggle giggle!)

Hare Krsna, Stoney! I just saw this gem post; don't know how I missed it. Well it's sure great to hear from longtime married people on this thread. And glad you appreciate the candor and vulnerability, as I think when we get to that place we are connecting in rare and special ways. It can sometimes seem frightening maybe, to some anyway, but the rewards! Well without honesty, what would even be the point in opening our mouths in such a theme as this one. Really, it seems the only possible way to really dig into the issues covered, right down into them, deep. right to the very roots if we're lucky. How did this thorny bush grow? And how do I make this lovely creeper grow stronger? what do the thorns feed on, and what makes the flowers bud? Sometimes I get these wonderful little glimpses of some devotees here as being cute little babies, fresh and new, on the threshold of something new and soaring. That just makes me feel good all over! Oh I hope Maitreya has the sublime time of his life in Vrindaban, where he is going on the first of October. He has never been to India. Well, it's great to hear about Shaktimati and Turiya prabhus, and I wonder if they would have stayed so strong if apart. Somehow I seriously doubt it. I remember them from Berkeley. Turiya was so equa-magnanimous. I think he is a good example of the hard to imagine mixture of kindness and detachment. Those two waulities stand out for me in him. How can someone be detached yet warm simultaneously. Look at Turiya, and you will understand. We need acharyas in each other--to see the aspects of a devotee. If we look on everyone as a teacher--and that is true humility--we will always be learning something about ourselves. It is strange to me how much egos get in the way. that is what I am learning about myself on this thread, among other things. And marriage is particularly conducive to learning humility and generosity of spirit; you are right there with that other devotee. Being constantly mirrored. Supported. Serve. Serving. If that isn't a way to make advancement--constantly associating with and serving another devotee--I don't know what is. Stoney, you mentioned feeling reticent about mentioning your reticense. ( play with that one) But I have talked to so many devotees who feel as you do, from all over the world. It is not uncommon to hesitate to a communal land situation. I myself woudl feel more comfortable if it was separate parcels, each owned individually. If you brought up the subject of your hesitation, you might find others feeling the same way (that's the way it usually works, I have found--me being ever the fool willing to open my mouth and admit things first). And once it is brought up, people will then be able to discuss it and find solutions if it is of general concern. It certainly seems, to me, to be a valid feeling you have, and an intelligent feeling too. I loved this; it's so positive, and demonstrates at least two people who obviously put alot into their marriage:

I think we're rolling around nicely, Valaya, also with thanks to you. As for attakcing any particular genders, I don't think that is happening on this thread, although sometimes examples may come up, such as when Rishi was honestly telling the experiences of his friends' abusive wives. But I don't consider that attacking. But sometimes it seems like when an example of a husband's abuse comes up, people think it is male-bashing. it's not. It's individual. and I hope you are feeling fine and mellow tonight, with a heart that glows pink and warm and fuzzy.... Jayaradhe [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-25-2001).]