JRdd

Sometimes I think the philosophical understanding of our fallen condition can be used to excuse behaviour that really should be effectively curtailed by now. To think that we must be resigned to being entrenched in abusive or fallen behaviour, is simply discouraging. Dis-COURAGE-ing. Does this process work? You bet it does!

It's funny, but I also noticed with shock, when I first went to England, that most devotees seemed oblivious to the guests. Of course this was in 1977, and I am speaking specifically of Bhaktivedanta Manor, not London, where guests were treated wonderfully. But at the Manor! pushing to get the feast, men first (they tended to ignore the women and children first agreement when they hadn't eaten anything all day), then the women with their children--and really, the behaviour looked so ruthless and pushy I was embarrassed to join the queue. I saw the guests, mostly Indians, hanging back, waiting patiently. I cringe just remembering this. That tendency was there for a long time. I'm not saying no one was taking care of the guests, some of us certainly were, but there was this general tendency, which I had never seen it at any temple previous to that, and the only other temple where I saw shameful lack of hospitality was at a large temple outside Florence, in Italy. But now you say you have noticed it a lot, and I can't say I have because I haven't been frequentling many temples over the past few years, but it doesn't surprise me. I mean, look at the lack of urgency about going out on harinam, and look at how book distribution has gone down. There is of course a general lethargy, almost as if the temples are in depression, due to all the corruptions that have happened. Maybe for some the temple is a comfort zone. Just a home for them. It is very very sad. In Berkeley I can't say I noticed any cliquishness, but then I was only a guest myself. During the festivals I do like to mix with Godsisters I haven't seen, but not to the neglect of visitors. During the week visitors were more visible than at these big festivals. I got to talk to guests, serve them prasada, give them garlands, pass the ghee lamps, and engage them in making garlands. I felt truly blessed in having this rare opportunity to serve. I know some devotees are now beginning to take it upon themselves to do what they can, not wait for some mass movement to happen, and not just sitting around complaining about it either. It has been wonderful to read of the harinams and prasadam distributions and the Peace Formulas being passed out for free, just like in the old days, and also see how much in going on on the Internet, which really is bringing in some focus, if we can all just work through the angst of all that has gone on before. I feel we are nearing effectiveness again. ys, JR

Yes the idea of prayer constantly challenges me. In England I was one of a small group of devotees who did healings through prayer and focus, sometimes hands, whatever was needed or accessed at the time. We did healings for indiduals on request, as well as sending our intentions of love all over the world. We did always pray that all would be in accordance with the will of the Lord. Now I see this as at least as valid as going to the doctor for help. Still, the idea of prayer confuses me. When in doubt, I just do as Srila Prabhupada advised, and that is to pray for strength. ys, JR

Such wonderful posts, Madhavi and Audaryalila prabhus! Such fairness, sweetness, balance and truth. I have nothing to add to your comments at this time but wanted you to know I appreciate them. Keep em comin as Mr das says! I am glad you answered Rishi prabhu so wonderfully, Madhavi. Along with the truth in what you say, when we nurture each other by looking at our strengths, and calling for compassion in the face of the hurts so many of us have obviously experienced, as is being revealed in this thread, this goes a long long way in healing and growing spiritually. This is true association among devotees, not trying to tear someone down, and I delight in seeing it. Flowing along the river of this discussion this week, I have come from feeling devalued to feeling once again uplifted, heartened, and encouraged, in the glow of the loving and generous nature of the devotees here. May Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga shine Their mercy on us all! love, Jayaradhe

Hari bol prabhus, I have moved the topic of mysogeny to a new thread called sixism and other topics. I was afraid this thread which has been so useful would get diverted by such sensitive topics. I haven't had time to read Rishi's reply but I want you to know, prabhu, that I felt the post was very harsh on you. Sorry I didn't respond yet about it but have been dealing with some very disrespectful behaviour cast my own way this week. When the going gets rough some very interesting things are revealed about people. wellwishing friend, Jayaradhe

Hare Krsna dear prabhus, I can not post for another hour but just came here quickly to move this post from the True Association thread to a new one, before the topic gets diverted. I feel that we are making good ground on that thread, and there should be a separate thread for these other discussions. I see that in the meantime Rishi prabhu has posted, which I haven't had time to read yet, but judging from his signature (the msot deplorable) I am making some assumptions as to how this psot affected him. Just for the record I think that he is being dealt with much more harshly than he deserves, and that we all are tainted with varying degrees of sexism or misogeny of some kind. It may be useful to point these out when they occur or when we suspect their occurrence, but these are delicate matters and they should be treated sensitively. Otherwise communication shuts off. And I personally have been very much encouraged by Rishi's honest and respectful posts, which are very useful in my opinion. There are ways to communicate with each other, ways to treat each other without disrespect, and I am not pointing the finger at Suryaz here, just saying in general that we will not ever make bridges if certain modes of basic respect are not adhereed to. I myself have been treated most insensitively this week, and while it is useful to have one's eyes opened, good to know who behaves like a jerk and who doesn't, it has not helped in the way of unification of the Vaisnavas, which is what I aim for myself, don't know about the rest of you all. Talk about rudeness, I could tell you stories. But who wants to hear. Just gotta move on, and know when some's association has proved unuseful. I will pick out some points relating to msiogeny from these recent experiences, including some men's hatred of the soft emotions of women. More later, keep your chin up Rishi, you are a good soul. Maybe this discussion here will becme useful too. But not while someone is picking at or on someone else. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga! ys, Jayaradhe dasi

Dearest prabhus, Pictures of the devotees chanting at the candlelight vigil at Union Square, New York, can be seen at: http://preaching.krishna.org/Articles/2001/09/018.html Besides the article which accompanies these pictures, some of which I have posted above, there is also another blissful article describing another group of devotees chanting at Tomkins Square Park. aspiring to be of service, JR

I LOVE your smiles!!! They have spoken a lot louder and more melodically than our words! Keep 'em comin'. Nice to have that wellwishin' vibe around, that sees more in us than we do ourselves. I can really feel it, and as Valaya says, it helps bring out the better parts in me. Plus I feel this bubble of love embracing this thread. I think there are remarkable breakthroughs going on. As for myself, I find these discussions incredibly healing, and intend to stick with this. Because I also think that if it is helping me, it must be helping others too, and that is so inspiring. Amazing how Krsna knows just what we need to hear to become detached from situations which no longer serve our higher good. We are simply surrounded by angels. My gratitude increases daily. Hope I can hang on to it at least a while, use it to establish stronger conections in sadhana and Deity worship and the highest charitable work of sharing this sublime secret of all secrets. ys, Jayaradhe

Well, not really! But sometimes a little break is good now and then. However, don't get me wrong; I consider the subject matter of this thread vitally important. As you often say, we must as devotees somehow become more unified. And although this thread may at times concentrate on one area of unity, in the area of the Particular (i.e., marriage, or friendship, and sometimes a bit of parent/child stuff sprinkled in), in its context of being centred around Krsna, we naturally broaden into the Universal, the love and concern for other conditioned souls who we wish to share the nectar with. So we expand and contract, and weave in and out, creating a tapestry of understanding of cosmic Love. That, as you know, is where it's at. Forgive me if sometimes I turn cartwheels madly singing across the sky, silohuetted by the sun! I just can't help it!

Dear Maitreya prabhu, This is a wonderful post! I appreciate all the thoughtfulness and depth you have gone into here. I also feel as you do, actually, and though I said I prefer the leap method, or at least I was born a leaper, I have learned by now to go slow, generally, although often I get an instant affinity with some Godsisters and it can feel like some old familial stuff. I don't get this with nonVaisnavas. But even so, sure, I have been let down at times, by others' disloyalties, but that is just life here, until we are freed from the modes, and there is no great harm in feeling some pain along the way of connecting with basically sincere devotees. Everyone is an individual and so I expect that I will not have the same relationship with any two people.It is just a question of what depth can be achieved comfortably.It may be casual or somewhat closer.I don't try to structure them too much.These things are really much more natural than that. Yes. You reiterate the same points I have been making on this thread. It is encouraging to get so much feedback on this subject matter. Also I too can't see relationships as being something formulaic, as I stated in one of my first posts on this thread. You don't force anyone; we as devotees know this more than most, when we know that Krsna Himself has given us free will to turn lovingly to Him. However, one can also succumb to a certain resignation, where it is easier to retreat than bother with others. Getting back to the theme of this thread, I think that is what so often happens in marriages. People start taking each other for granted. That is the main malady of our society of devotees. People don't appreciate like they used to. Can hardly blame them or us though, in light of corruptions that we witnessed. But I think it is time for devotees to roll up their sleeves and band together. Not all of us keep a safe distance from each other just because we as conditioned souls are not completely trustworthy. Of course not all people will feel right taking this way as their own. The main thing anyway is to help each other remember Krishna.Krishna is the center.He is Rasaraja.And all relationships with each other should flow around that reality. Yes. You are in line with the intent of this thread. As far as trust goes, I have said on many other occasions that I don't even trust 'myself'.Never trust someone who is not in control of their own senses.We act against our own self interest anytime we make any move that is not directed to Krishna's pleasure. Association of devotees is recommended to remind each other in ways that help us move away from that shaming mind prison. I really think we can get so neurotic (I know this one well!), so self-absorbed in how we fall short of the mark, instead of reflecting in an inspiring, empowering way--how can I serve Krsna? How can I serve guru?--that it really is a hell prison. To the degree that we get connected up to the Lord, to that degree we will be able to be a real friend to someone else. So that is what I am trying to say here.When we become trustworthy in Krishna's service to some degree, to that degree we will be friends to others. That's what I said. And I also said we don't wait until we are one hundred percent there until we start connecting in real ways with devotees. It ain't gonna happen, prabhu. Without that association, that deep and honest association, we will be plodding along from here to eternity. Anything else is just an imitation and I am just sooo tired of my own pretense that it is becoming too hard to maintain. At times such as these a friend has cautioned me to not be so hard on myself. I offer you the same caution back. It is not pure humility so what is it? It is not encouraging so what is it? Brace up brother! Don't let shame get you down. There's a wonderful devotee crying out inside you to the world, and it's beautiful. So please, no one trust me.Not at all.Your friend is Krishna and His servants.I came to this world just to exploit people like you.I have no good intentions towards you whatsoever. I am however thinking about changing my lifeview in this regard.But until I do you would be best to keep a safe distance. This is not self hatred or an attempt at playing humble.Just the raw truth of the matter as I see it. Hare Krishna fellow souls. I have to question this statement of yours, that you say is not false humility or self-hatred; that is, that you have no good intentions toward anybody. If you really beleive that of yourself (I find that an astounding statement) then I could understand why you are so wary of others. It's called mirroring. Oh and what about the rest of us? Only you came to the world to exploit others? So we should all carry ten-foot poles? We should become the antithesis of the mood of Lord Caitanya. Srila Prabhupada said you act that way and you become that way (my wording, but total gist). I saw him lecture in LA about the young wife, for example, how they would get married very young, and the wife would not even know the husband, and yet by serving that husband she would develop love for him, naturally. This example applies to all our associations, whatever they are. We perfrom service and we develop affection. Just like when you mop the temple room floor your affection for Sri Sri Radha Gokulananda increases. So it is with the devotees. We have all tasted this, you included. We shouldn't think our ineptness in this world prevents us from being worthy association if we are on the path and have something to share, be it our words, quotes, realisations, comfort, prasad, etc. etc.; the possibilities are endless. Hare Krsna! Jayaradhe

Huh? Am I missing something here? Emasculate you? I'm having a great time, myself! I am capalce of running circles, you know! Just keep trying me!

Oh do tell little Mr Supersoul! :0

Maitreya, it occurs to me that you may be speaking about someone here on the forum. Forgive me if I am wrong. But if I'm right, have you communicated properly with this person, in private? Seems it may be more appropriate to put this to him one on one than in this indirect way, with no real cross-communication going on. I don't know if that person is reading this but if it was me, I know it pisses me off when someone shuts the door to communication then brings the problem to the public forum, as has happened to me in the past. If my humch is right, that you are indeed addressing this to someone here, it seems strange that you would do such, in light of your complaints about confidentiality. It doesn't help a thing to try and get the last word, and usually shows a person whose communication skills leave something to be desired. Or maybe you wish that person to come here to respond? If so, maybe the assembled devotees will faciliate. JR

LOL mr das! You know what I said about whatever you think is going on it isnt? well it isnt hahaha! So yourself! Where is that contraption thingie that helps the false ego? I wanna knock someoone over the head with it right about now! (no, not myself--i dont have any false ego!)

Absolutely. Otherwise what is that trust? But sometimes, as implied in Valaya's post, a certain amount of leap is required (a term I also used, in my previous post, before I saw his post). We trust unless and until we are repeatedly betrayed. Myself, when I feel a confidence has inadvertantly been betrayed, I ask my friend about it, and if I am assured that it will not happen again, then I continue to trust that friend. If we expect perfection in others we will end up with no close friends at all. And how long does it take to build trust is another point to consider. Longer for some than others. I can appreciate that. Myself I tend to live by the premise of trusting until I have been given reason not to. It's just the way I am. I always approach with an open heart and assume the best in people. For example;if someone is given to gossip,and you know this, are you likely to take that person into your confidence?I think not.The very word confidence implies trust. I am not sure what you mean by gossip. Do you mean when one woman shares her feelings with another woman? Women do this, more than men, so I am not sure if this is what you are referring to, this confiding one's feelings. When we share our feelings with someone we trust, we are then more easily able to move on. Just by having that listening ear. However, I recently confided in someone spontaneously, not knowing that the person would not only speak about this to a third party, but also mix up what was said and thus misrepresent me to that person. She meant well, however, so I forgive that, but I will certainly think twice next time. Now this third person, unfortunately, a friend of mine (or so I thought) chose to abruptly cut off our friendship, and not trust me anymore due to the mistake made by the woman I confided in. I chose to forgive in this instance--even though this "betrayal" cost me a friend (?)--while the "friend" chose not to forgive. This is an illustration of an actual ability to trust, apart from the issue of whether trust has been earned or not. From the American Heritage Dictionary. Confidence 1.Trust or reliance:I am placing my confidence in you. 2.Trusting relationship:took him into my confidence etc. Confide:1.To tell something in confidence.2.To put into anothers keeping;entrust.3.To tell private matters in confidence. It seems you feel betrayed. Did you yourself confide in somebody? Of course, I am not aware of your having confided anything to anyone, least of all me, nor is it my business, but I do hope I am understanding your point enough to be of value in this discussion. Letting off steam is useless if there is no opening for feedback. Trust is an essential foundation stone for true friendship as I see it.More than just sharing the same belief system. Of course! We are so fortunate to be able to trust and to have true friendships, aren't we? For me nothing can compare with the depths of my longlasting friendships with a few gems in my life. Once tasting that, one aspires for no less! People can all work together towards a specific goal without developing this type of relationship. Building a church or temple and being friendly while doing it is one thing. But I feel something much deeper is being meant in this verse.Something not tossed about lightly. I have not seen anyone tossing it about lightly so I am not sure what you are driving at here. It might be useful to share more insights you have gained from your own experiences with deep relationships. thanks, JR

I agree full-heartedly, and am glad you too are reflecting on this. May I add a thought to this: To trust somebody means listening to one's heart, and weighing up what one knows about a friend, before jumping to conclusions about them. Something else I have learned through observation and experience: When one withholds trust, and is suspicious by nature or habit, perhaps due to past experiences, one him/herself becomes untrustworthy as a streadfast friend. This is the self-fulfilling prophecy syndrome. A little side thought: If one's private confidings have been betrayed, one is sorry for having made that mistake, and will not confide in that person again. However, this is not a serious trust issue, nor does it mean that the betrayer is ill-motivated. Things happen. And last but not least: Ultimately, none of us in the conditioned state is fully trustworthy, being prone as we are to the four defects. Therefore it would serve our best interests, for the sake of community, the smaller family, and also our one on one relationships--for the sake of unity, in other words--to let forgiveness and not suspiciousness be our guiding star. Otherwise we miss so much, and devalue what is actually precious. Trusting in others requires a leap for many of us. There are rewards in that leap, however, beyond what our present hearts' conditions can conceive of. Just some things that hit me, pertaining to events in my personal life. Don't know if I conveyed them well enough to strike a chord with anyone else. sincerely, Jayaradhe

Visoka Das Mon Sep 24, 2001 2:46 pm funds needed for prasadam in NY I am making appeal to those of you who want to help relieve suffering in New York City. Kapindra Swami and the devotees at the Prabhupada Sankirtan Society in the Lower East Side in NYC have been tirelessly and steadily providing prasadam comfort and counseling to the stunned people in the closed down area of NYC. Kapindra Swami's first response to the tragic events in NYC was to get out on the streets, distribute hot prasadam and provide encouragement and counseling to the people there. (Krsna prema devi/PADA newsletter) Dear Puranjana Prabhu and dear godbrothers and dear godsisters, All glories to Srila Prabhupada who lovingly reaches out to us in this cycle of birth and death. Please accept my most humble obeisances. I am making appeal to those of you who want to help relieve suffering in New York City. Kapindra Swami and the devotees at the Prabhupada Sankirtan Society in the Lower East Side in NYC have been tirelessly and steadily providing prasadam comfort and counseling to the stunned people in the closed down area of NYC. Kapindra Swami's first response to the tragic events in NYC was to get out on the streets, distribute hot prasadam and provide encouragement and counseling to the people there. They have been serving non stop since Tuesday afternoon and are depleting available funds. If you want to make a transcendental difference in the struggle to fight demoniac mentality please send a check or money order made out to Prabhupada Sankirtan Society. You can send those much needed funds to their efforts at: Prabhupada Sankirtan Society/ 48 Avenue B/ New York, New York 10009 Though they did not ask me to make this appeal I am sure they won't mind. In fact it would be a touching affirmation to the devotees that we care about their service. Thank you Prabhus. All glories to His Divine Grace and your service to him, obliged, your servant, Krsna Prema dasi you can access this article on harekrsna.org and use donation button- http://www.harekrsna.org/article.php?sid=66&mode=thread&order=0 (Note from editor: You may also use the "Make a Donation" Button on the left on this website for the Vrindavan Festival and donate via Paypal. The donation goes to the Prabhupada Sankirtan Society. Write something like "FOR NEW YORK PRASADA DISTRIBUTION" into the comment of your donation.)

Fixed! (except the last line) Guess I was feeling too much love....

I just had a hopeful thought I would like to share. All of us are suffering due to the modes of material nature, which we are simply compelled to act under. What hit me in a flash was how lucky I really am to experience this world as it really is; as Srila Prabhupada has said repeatedly, Krsna takes away from those He loves the most. Not that Krsna shows favoritism, but it IS a special favor, very special mercy, when Krsna does not allow His devotees to be very comfortable here. It appears ironic that those who worship Lord Shiva can prosper, while those who worship Visnu, the Lord of all Opulences, one can have nothing. That is because we are striving to go BEYOND this world. So Krsna, fulfilling those desires, orchestrates our movements to most effectively faciliate our distaste for, and detachment from, this world so we can head along, unimpeded, the progressive march back to Godhead. Anyway, we've all heard this all before, and we all know it is true, but I thought I might be able to capture in words the fresh moment of realizing it. I'm not sure if I conveyed it so profoundly as I feel it. But right now, I am feeling ever so grateful! May Lord Balarama lend us His strength, to endure this hellish material existence, and to surrender to the will of Lord Krsna. aspiring to be your servant, Jayaradhe [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-24-2001).]

Prabhus, I am trying to stay fresh here, write honestly and naturally without feeling daunted by this public platform and by the piercing arrows that I know are there because I feel them: those arrows of judgements by others. That is one of my great anarthas: to be affected by other people's thoughts. And the curse on top of that is that I am psychically sensitive to these thoughts and intentions of others. So this is a personal battlefield for me, meaning I am really trying hard to be brave here by speaking forthrightly, by giving it all I've got and not watering it down due to fears and false ego and a tendency to lethargy. I am so encouraged when someone posts clearly and frankly as has Rishi prabhu, and others too, and it in turn heartens me to consider that my frankness may also be speaking to someone out there/in here. So please will any more soldiers step forward and help us here with the onslaughts of Maya's tricksters? Of course in this battle even if you are reading but not posting you are helping the cause, for in this realm it's all equal under the flower-strewn umbrella of devotional service. So with that diversion out of the way....Well I may have run out of stream now; it is quite late but I got this burst, that I had to come write down. I so look forward to the day when we are all part of a most powerful and functional family, visible again on the streets of the world, shining to compete with the Sun. We will distribute barrelfuls of prasadam in meadows in the sun, perform plays and dances, sing bhajans and harinam, distribute Peace Formulas and wonderful books, take mahaprasad, attend all the places of learning and give talks and kirtans and demonstrations, hold japa workshops, eat lots of prasadam, make garlands for the Deities, and be full of smiles and hugs. All of this will happy, when we become simple again, like children, and open our hearts. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga! All glories to the devotees! aspiring to give this (and all my rightful endeavours) all I've got, Jayaradhe

Hari bol Gaurachandra, I just read your second to the last post and was about to reply to it when I saw this resonse to me. I wanted to say that after reading your post I see that you explained quite vividly what you meant by "idiot", and that is fair. What I didn't like, earlier, was some blasting him instead of explaining. That did not seem very intelligent to me, and would not encourage a mind to remain open. People are not all on the same level of understanding and I wish we had more patience with each other. Sorry if I offended you. Did not mean to, though I was surprised when I glanced over the fray and saw you saying idiot, without (I thought) explanation. thanks for explaining, that's all I wanted, Jayaradhe

Paul, it means that these "gentlemen" get to call you names rather than intelligently addressing your points. Although I was far from ecstatic about the World Trade Center tragedy and all that followed, I am ashamed of my brothers' behaviour here. And more than a little appalled. respectfully, Jayaradhe

I dont have TV but I followed that link and the pictures were awful! I had to stop after I saw the series showing the children digging through the garbage for food. that just broke my heart. I felt physically sick to my stomach for a long time today after seeing that.

Is there no where we can go without being bombarded with all these world events? Not that I wouldn't read it, necessarily, but it's a bit of a downer to see it in the spiritual talks forum. thanks, JR

Dear Rishi prabhu and other devotees, You brought up important points, not least of which is that all-time marriage breaker: faultfinding. I find it interesting too in these discussions that one can often replace the word “marriage” with “spiritual growth” and the truths still hold. Indeed when marriage has Krsna at its center it is the vehicle for, and is therefore nondifferent from, spiritual growth. I’m glad this thread is evolving from its starting point of my perspective to a wider perspective. Sometimes our points are valid from all sides (both genders) and sometimes they are seen more in one gender than the other. Discussing this from these various angles contributes to a greater understanding of the problems and, hopefully, solutions to those problems. And even if some of us will never again be married, we may come up with ways to help those who will. At the very least, our experiences or concerns may trigger thoughtfulness in others. In any case, it is our job to share our experiences and wisdom. The stories of your friends who have been treated badly are moving. (Also frustrating, as how I would appreciate a loyal supportive husband--so long as he was kind and affectionate too!) The attitude that a husband should have an outgoing nature is ludicrous. This same person would criticise her outgoing husband for his particular qualities. Good combinations can come from outgoing wife/ shy husband, or shy wife/outgoing husband, or shy wife/shy husband, etc. This grass is always greener attitude is most immature and people who have it should never have married in the first place. They are living in a dream world. Anyone seeking the perfect Cinderella or Prince Charming best stick to their comics or better yet invest in a door-sized mirror. Their unrealistic, immature attitudes are self-serving, the very antithesis of bhakti, the process of serving the Lord and His devotees. How shallow can a person get? And what blows my mind is that devotees do this–supposedly deep-thinkers, people you would expect to be less superficial. To me people seem beautiful when they are serving Krsna or His devotees. How someone could criticise external personality--especially when we are personalists, supposedly embracing each other’s individual expressions of Krsna--is beyond me. This shallow attitude affects me to the point where I sometimes feel as if no one will want me when my body starts looking old (I look young for my age but it’s only a matter of time), and then I wouldn’t want to be with someone with that attitude anyway. If this bodily-consciousness disease is to be the focus you can leave me out. I would find better association in my self than with such a person. Your story of the other blaming you for her own part in falling short of the mark also shows the denial of this other person. Relationships end because someone is acting out of false ego, pointing the finger, rather than looking inward. There has just GOT to be more cooperation than this, and more care for each other. Or we will not get very far in our advancement. We are certainly not pleasing Sri Guru when we remain on this platform. Faultfinding is the big illusion of the ego and the crux of why there is rampant disharmony both im marriages and relationships in general. When you are endeared to someone--that is, when people are bound to each other with their core aim to make spiritual progress, making God their center--mutual appreciation grows rather than diminishes. It is a truly tragic misunderstanding to construe growing closer to Krsna as growing away from those one engages devotionally alongside. Devotees should be able, then, to gauge their emphasis by their attitudes toward their spouse, or other devotees. This is why marriages fail, friendships do not endure, and families are dysfunctional, spiritually bereft. Yes marriage is about serving each other. We don’t get to decide what level the other person is on, or whether that person is worthy of our service. We simply serve without cluttering our hearts and minds with such speculations or trying to play Supersoul. This is the opposite of fault-finding. Upon entering that sacred relationship, centered around God, one assumes the perspective of appreciating the devotee-ness in that other person. External, temporary conditions are forgiven, overlooked. (Not that there won’t be some angst, arguments, or searches for how to compromise and improve, but that is another point, that could also be discussed in this thread). I don’t have the exact quote at hand, but I remember as a young devotee being told that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta (I think it was) said that “While I am finding fault with my Godbrothers, they are all making advancement, while I stay behind.” (Paraphrasing that, and of course we know the acarya says such a thing as an example). That always stayed with me. Do we want to cut off our noses to spite our faces? One cuts off one’s own nose when finding fault with another person. This may be more clearly understood when we look at how children are impressed, at an early age, with the feedback they are given, and how this shows later in life when they are adults. A good parent doesn’t concentrate on the child’s shortcomings but rather focuses on his/her strengths, while also offering positive feedback and positive engagement. I’ve quoted this many times but feel I can’t quote it too many times, as in the Beatles’ song “All You Need Is Love”; here is a definition of love according M Scott Peck, in his book The Road Less Traveled: Peck elaborates on this for several pages, and here is one of his comments: “...it may be noticed that, as defined, love is a strangely circular process. For the process of extending one’s self is an evolutionary process. When one has successfully extended one’s limits, one has then grown into a larger state of being. Thus the act of loving is an act of self-evolution even when the purpose of the act is someone else’s growth....” I like this thread because if we look again at the title, False Renunciation or True Association, we can see how it applies universally, not just in marriage relationships, an issue which was my springboard in starting this thread. So anyone can benefit by delving into these matters, and hopefully more will give input on the overall theme being discussed here. We talk about community, well it doesn’t happen, in a functional, lasting and effective way without these basic things, about how we relate with each other, healed. Healthy relationships make healthy community. There is just no getting around it. Healthy relationships nurture everything that is good. I have a strong feeling about this, and this is backed by the teachings of our line, which encourage healthy God-centered relationships and discourage other types of mingling in this world. We only have to look at Nectar of Instruction, Text Four, to immediately see the truth in this. (That text alone is worth analysis–what is meant by association, confidentiality, etc.–and deserves its own thread.) The theme of that text is sharing. Sharing the best that we have–the process of reawakening our dormant love for God. Just look at the sweetness of that! We don’t have to wait until we are one hundred percent pure to experience the mood of Caitanya’s pastimes. Srila Prabhupada said charity begins at home. So come on, folks, let’s put our actions where our mouths are. {b]LOVING EXCHANGES! People living together, whether as roommates, or communally, or as spouses, should be willing to both tolerate and compromise. It’s great hearing from longtime married people like Stoney, who give experiential perspective on cooperation within marriage. People must be realistic. It is a given, and this must be understood by both, that every one in this world has quirks, expectations, and anartha. Good partners do not dwell on these shortcomings or shame each other for having them, but rather strive to offer something better, understanding that with higher taste, the lower drops away. And especially now when so many devotees are dispersed and find themselves in varying lifestyles and levels of surrender to the process, I would say that it is important, before marrying, that they be familiar with each other’s weaknesses as well as strengths, and decide how much and what they are willing to live with, and if their lifestyles and attitudes match closely enough to be manageable. For example, if my prospective spouse insisted I had to rise at three every morning, I would find that a bit threatening. Less threatening, and more natural, would be to follow his lead, being inspired by his example. No one should ever try to force another person. One should consider how staunch or laid-back each is in relation to the other, and consider if they can--or are willing to--work with this or not. So many things have to be looked at. But fault finding should never be indulged in. I lived with it daily for eight “soul-killing” years, and even lost the heart to cook, which I was known for, due to the prasadam being regularly criticised, even as we partook! Once again I have gone on longer than I meant to, so I’ll close for now. So many things can be discussed. I am thinking of the topics of self-centeredness, springing from this fault-finding process, the topic of fighting as not to be taken seriously, of loyalty, so many things to talk about concerning enriching relationships. Thanks, Jayaradhe (edited to add the phrase LOVING EXCHANGES!) [This message has been edited by JRdd (edited 09-23-2001).]