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Referencing post # 62 : Lord Shankara states in the Ramayan : "He(My Lord Ramacandra) is the brahm in the vedas whom the gyanis address by neti neti." Neti neti (Not this Not that) refers to the Purusha Who is beyond maya.Not this Not that means : Not the indriyas,Not the mind,Not the 5 elements,Not the ego,Not even maya. In the end,we stumble upon the Purusha Who is beyond maya.So your explanation that Vishnu is not Brahm is not helpful,for Who is Purusha other than Sri Visnu ?? *** Referencing Sambya's post: Do you accept or not that Bhagavan has a Sat.chit.Ananda body ?? Yes or No.It's very simple question.So instead of skirting around the bush,we should just stay on point. I think it is only fair that your questions should be answered.You raised the point that great Vaishnavas criticise mayavadis and according to you,they are absolutely wrong. So Sambya,it is imperative that you understand the logic behind their behaviour. Now that you have,please consider the Vaishnava stand point every time before whining how the great acharyas have no decency or moral etiquettes.

Actually a person who has even a sattvic mind-even he cannot remember the lord at the time of death. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO REMEMBER ANYTHING at the time of death.The pain is unbearable. Only those who have already attained Bhagavan,who are beyond maya,who leave their bodies through the single vein from the temple,the mahatmas,they can remember Bhagavan.They may chant,they may not chant,their wish.But they always remember Him. Such people enter the kingdom of God.When Sri Krsna says,"Those who remember Me at the time of death,they attain My abode.",He references His mahatmas. It is not a gamble in any way...Mayic people CANNOT enter the region of Vaikuntha. We cannot decieve Bhagavan in any way.He says surrender to Me fully.Mind will become pure,then you come here.I will send My personal associates to get you here !

^ We are not a 'part' of Brahm exactly.Generally,the amsa of Something is of His own nature. So if you say that Jeeva is an amsa of Bhagavan,it actually means Jeeva too should be able to control maya. So the vaishnavas say that Jeevatma is Energy of Bhagavan and not His part as such. So we are never a 'part' of His consiousness or His spiritual body. Sri Krsna's hand is Sri Krsna.Sri Krsna's toe nail is Sri Krsna.So we cannot be part of His spiritual body. Same applies to His consiousness.The Sri Krsna Who stays in an atom down in Hell is completely Indifferent from the Sri Krsna in goloka. So we are not even a part of His consiousness. If this were so,He wouldn't have existed separately in every living entity's heart.He lives almost just within the Jeevatma.Thus the upanishads say,"There are TWO birds." Getting back to the point : I didn't know the bible holds the same stance !!! Omg,this is huge !! Anyway,the body which we have is 100% true.We cannot percieve the spirit soul.Exactly the same way,we cannot percieve the Spiritual body of Bhagavan. But He never leaves His body.That's like saying Jeevatma left His Jeevatma body. Let's go to the definition of cit in gita.Bhagavan says,"You just cannot destroy something that is cit in nature." Sri Maharaj ji says,"Challenge Bhagavan.Destroy us and show !! He cannot destroy the Jeevatmas.It's not possible.Why ? They are cit." Even Shankaracharya says,"Rama,you are sat.chit.ananda." Done. It's signed by Sri Shankaracharya himself.There is not doubt that Sri Rama/Sri Krsna's bodies are eternal.

^ why to spoil the thread ???? Why not just let it be.. ???

So it is all Pure bliss in the spiritual world and wherever Bahagavata and Bhagavan is there...even if they are on the worst hellish planet... Everything is full of bliss for them.

Actually there is not much difference between Bhagavan and Bhagavata.He is so kind and merciful,that He gives His bhaktas His own bliss. Meerabai knew Sri Krsna in a more intimate way.While she had the right to the most sweet regions of Goloka,Hanumanji couldn't go there. It's not because it is not possible for him.It is becoz for him,His sole life is Ramcandra. Once,Garuda,Rukmini and Sudarsana got too proud of themselves(Purely Leela.Rukmini doesn't get ego,She is Mahalaxmi.Maya doesn't even come in front of Her.) So Sri Krsna ordered Garuda,go to this and this place (there is a place where HAnumanji still resides even after His lord ascended.) and get that monkey before Me. Garuda flapped his wings and left.Garuda is a HUGE bird.He could put a large chunk of the earth in shadow whenever he used to fly. As soon as he tried his strength on hanuman,he failed to capture him.Instead Hanuman took him in his armpit and flew down,"Let's see who sent you,you bird !" On the periphery of Dwarika,the Sudarsana was standing guard.Hanuman put sudarsana under his other arm and was in a rampage. Sri Krsna smiled and called out,"Rukmini Rukmini !!! come fast !! Hanuman is in a rage !!! You become Seeta and I'll become Rama !!! Otherwise,he will destroy everything and You know how strong he is." Rukmini hurried and tried..But She couldn't become Seeta.Sri Krsna said,"Pray to Radha.She will save Us now." Rukmini prayed and Radha came immediately,innocence REEKING from Her.She immediately became Seeta. Just then Hanumanji entered. "Oh my Lord ! O Mother Seeta !!" He was overjoyed and started dancing. So,Hanuman loves Sri Krsna also.He loves Narayana also.He loves Shankara also.,but it is Ramacandra Who binds him in a spell. Only Ramchandra. Actually,the great bhaktas are not higher or lower.They are just in different rasas. Also,it is important to note that Hanumanji was Shankraji's avatar. Shankarji is perhaps present in almost every rasa.As a gopa,As a gopi,As a servant. He is present as a mountain !!! a mountain for God's sake ! He also became Sri Krsna's flute. So whatever we see,"Arjuna lamenting-Laxmana suffering from wounds-Seeta crying at Her helplessness-etc" is ALL LEELA. They just LOVE doing Leela. In the end,it is not advisable to compare bhaktas...We can only glorify them. Radhe Radhe !

^ dear Primate, Actually it is very bewildering and i personally do not (if i may even say so.But it is in my mind and i might as well say it.) approve the ascension technique of Sri KRsna/sri Rama (I know I know !!! Who am i to even say so but..). But these two....they could've just ascended in front of material eyes as well. This is all very clearly described in Bhagavatam : Sri Krsna ascended to His region with Yogmaya. (Yogmaya is not independent of Sri Krsna but we have to state the fact 'He did this with Yogamaya ' in order to establish the spiritual nature of His being and His work.) However ordinary eyes saw Him 'dead'. It's very simple.The vedas state,"KArtum akartum anyatha kartum samarth." With His para shakti(Para shaktir vividhaivashuyate..) The Lord can do anything whatsoever. To project a mayic body.To make it show getting shot by an arrow...the possiblities are just too many to concieve... It's not known widely that Sri krsna sent the hunter vali,in his hunter's body,to heaven just before departing. You know how stupid that is ??? To send a lowly hunter to heaven...is TRANSGRESSION of all the karma laws...It's not acceptable..When Ravana tried to connect heaven to earth,The Lord descended to kill him and now,He Himself is sending Vali to Heaven...Who will oppose Him.. ?? Yamraj ?? Or Brahma ??? Brahma came and cried making loud noises and touched his head to Sri Krsna's feet. And then when we hear,He got shot,He 'died',doesn't it strike any alarms ??? We should burst in giggles that anyone could think He could 'die'. Sri Maharajji says on this point,"This Personality Who defeated Shankarji,Who can destroy the entire universe by just opening His third eye,can He even die?It is foolish to think so.Yeh dimag se nikaal daalo.He went up,straight to Goloka.Bhagavan ka deh anand hai.Woh nasht nahi ho sakta !!!(His body is Ananda.It doesn't ever get destroyed !).He just didn't go alone.He took everyone-the entire Vrindavan-the Dwarika vasis and the Mathura-vasis."

Since He has the para-shakti(yogmaya),He can grant His own nature to the conscious beings,thus making their intelligence able to grasp His nature. "Brhatvat Brighadtvat tat param Brahm." Brahm is the One Who is Greatest of all and Who makes others great. That means,He is the only one Who can remove the Conscious beings from under the thralldom of maya. Since He is beyond the all the forms of Maya,the nature of His forms is completely different. Tulsidas states,"Binu pag chalat,binu kar karm karat,..." "My lord Ramcandra can smell without His nose,He can see without His eyes He can do anything and everything." So also the svetasvatara upanishad states,"He can run without legs." He also remains formless in His Brahmswarup,where His energies remain unmanifest,thus being unable to perform any work of creation,maintenance and destruction or to execute any other desire. Like maya is His energy,so also,He has a chit sakti,Which is the mainstay of His region(spiritual abode). Since this region is of Cit nature,maya doesn't extend to that region. Since cit means sat.chit.anand by vedic definition,the sipiritual realm is ever existent and blissful. Since the mayic world is "created",it is conclusive that it should reflect the structure of the Spiritual realm crudely. So,to apply all the laws of this world,to the spiritual realm,is short sightedness and speculative.

^ and to think that a complete indivisible Whole divided into innumerable seperate consious beings....is ahem...a bit stupid. If mayavadis say no.They are not divided.Maya is illusion-non existent,then if a soul achieves Brahm gyan,why doesn't every living being get brahmgyan ???? There are innumerable other such problems. Who the hell is the Purusha BEYOND maya Who is described in the vedas. It's understandable that Personalities exist only in the mayic region then Who is this Virat Purusha Who is the Controller of Maya. Who- Not What.He is a Person,Who is intelligent and has a will.Since maya is under His control,He doesn't display 'emotions' as Kaisersose said. It's like saying I own the factory and they manager makes me work in it. The mayic emotions do not even extend to the Purusha's region.The simple reason is,He controls Maya.It is illogical to believe He is subject to ordinary emotions. Since He is independent of Maya,His Personal nature is different from that of Maya. Since He is independent of Maya,He is independent of her temporariness. Since there is only ONE controller of maya,He is Supreme amongst all other conscious beings. Since the Jeevas are clearly affected by Maya,the Supreme Person is Superior to them in terms of Power. Since He is different and superior to them,He is the controller of all that be. Since maya herself pervades the entire creation,the Supreme Lord is obviously all-pervasive,Him being the controller of the energy AT ALL TIMES.

yes,i like the moral of your story. We should practise engagement of our mind in thinking of the Lord...We should always do 'radhe radhe' (sadhana bhakti).Only then it is possible to get detached. MECHANICALLY chanting is NOT helpful.We have seen many cases of Brahmacaris being deviated. Mind has to be engaged.

sati is a vedic practice.The wife of Dhritarashtra went sati.It is a choice.there are certain injunctions for the adherents of karma kanda and this forms a part of it. I Expect a mayavadi to believe that the garuda purana 'can be wrong'. when people slowly stop giving vedas the amoutn of respect and reverence they give now,no doubt,you will discount some sections of the vedas which describe the purusha,etc. obviosuly,you will say that 'these Vedas advocate use of cow dung '

this reminds me when this great Vaishnva constantly tells his disciples,"All your family ties..it is all chaar din ka naatak.It is very selfish.They just want they own happiness and they gather all the saaman of the world and then they decieve each other,"Oh-i love you unconditionally" etc etc. Once Arjuna told Bhagavan,in leela,Damodara ! please show me my son just once.Please !'(Abhimanyu was dead.) Bhagavan told him,"You've seen him and hugged him for so many years ! are you not satisfied ??" Arjuna insisted,"Please." So Bhagavan presented Abhimanyu from Goloka by yogmaya. Arjuna yelled,"My son !" Abhmanyu replied,"Whose son ?? You've become my son so many lifetimes.What is this you are saying ?" Arjuna got embarrassed and Sri Krsna,as usual,smiled. so,don't think you will do some bad karma by detaching from your family.Who says leave them ? Do your duties.Bhagavan just wants your mind.Keep your mind in God and keep your body engaged in your duties.This is how everyone attains bhagavan.You don't have to go to a forest to attain God.Arjuna attained Him during a battle." I love Ramkrishna's way of explaining things.He hits it right on target...Being a Vaishnava follower,his teachings just hit me right in the face, like eg,"Attach your mind to God." etc etc.

^ you are the one who raised questions about the behaviour of Vaishnavas- you are the one who has 'support of thousands' of others who feel Vaishnavas behave wrongly.

Why do view it like that ??? can't it be that the human body is fashioned after the eternal form of God? ? Isn't that most sensible answer ??? That an intelligent Supreme Being created a specific form after Himself....it's almost common sense. To think that the Ganpatyas worship a form of half elephant and half man,clearly indicates that the deity forms are not manufactured concoctions of the mind.The Ganpatyas strongly believe that Ganesh is God-Brahm. It is quite naive to think that devout followers could ever 'design' a form decorated with human skulls on one hand and a beautiful,calm form on the other. If i design a car,i want it to look the best-it should be marketable. So your idea that the form of the Lord was only so-marketable,is flawed. Maybe we should look into the vedas-the Purusha is described clearly with thousands of heads and thousands of hands. To think that the vasihnavas 'created' the form of Mahavishnu is quite a rational thought. But then,why didn't shankarites 'create' Mahashankara as having a form that conforms with that of Purusha ??? So,yes,we DO repeat what our acharyas have said.But we have also THOUGHT IT THROUGH. In india...we have mahatmas-great souls-Who actually see this great form situated permanently in the sky and so they describe Him in their works. Be it bhagavatam or a poem of Surdas,the form is the same.Be it a Sri Vaishnava or a Madhavite,the form of Narayana is the same. Sampradayas are very strict and usually proclaim their own doctrine to be the greatest.If the form of Narayana was 'concocted',it is FOOLISH to think it would be the same in any two sampradayas. Also,the vedas have stated that Puranas are the fifth veda.So to think that the Bhagavatam lies,is another foolish thing.Obviously,there have been 'scholars' who think otherwise and who constantly try to date the inclusion of a PErsonal God in vedic religion...but that's hardly anything compared to the actual experiences of the practising devotees(people who are,in many cases,more intelligent than 'scholars' and more rational too). So when the 'scholars' keep trying to establish the 'date' when Sri Krsna was invented,the devotees just laugh on them silently. What else can be done ??? You tell a person whose mother is well alive in her native town,"I read in the newspaper that your mother is dead.Her name was this this.She lived in the same town.It can't be anyone else." You feel you are right.You've got the facts straight.You've drawn an obvious conclusion.But the person has just spoken to his mother a minute ago.He knows How well his mother's health is. She is well and alive.The proof of her existence is SOLID.He can't do anything but try to make you talk to her to convince you she is alive. But the catch is,the mahatmas can't make any tom dick and harry see that God is actually a Person with a beautiful,eternal form.

and sant,plz. first atleast tell us if your a vaishnava or shakta or whatver. unintentionally,you cause havoc.

actually,it seems some of you don't even care about the Lord. It's all about maintaining decorum in the 'spiritual forum'. I can only imagine what people would have said when all the great mahatmas(pandavas-bhisma) slaughtered people(a 'immoral' act) on the battlefiled-that too on The lord's direction !! No one has considered my point...some of you have derided me,called me things...that's fine.. but at the end of the day,if you people fail to see the most basic thing...the fact on which 4 jagadgurus have established superexcellent doctrines...the point that Sri krsna/Sri Ramcandra are Spiritual.Sat.Chit.Ananda,then I'm sorry to say,it all amounts to nothing... It's just plain insulting to even think something along those lines.I'd rather be banned from this forum than have not tried to establish that the Lord is Beyond maya and without even a slightest scent of even sattva guna,what to speak of rajas and tamas.

Oh,now i think i do...I have indeed wasted time before...but when one of you raised a finger on the behaviour of the bhagavatas,it was important to establish some things... i never called myself a pure devotee.I am talking about the bhagavatas-the Mahatmas. anyway,i am sorry for the language.I believe rascal is not even a cuss word.Bhaktajan has already explained how. My parents worship all gods.I don't even say anything to them.They have the deepest respect for Tukaram,Dyaneshwara,etc. but whenever i tell them,Follow what they SAID,they will still worship Ganeshji,Hanumanji,etc. etc. BUT My parents will only get angry if someone even dares to say that Shankarji has a material body. THAT's the difference. This angers you,i suppose ??? Yes ?? It does. Now,please tell me how can you still say that vaishnavas cannot critisize mayavadis??? know this,it is wrong to say that God has a material body.So all those mayavadis who say this are wrong. Imagine you,who haven't even had a vision of the spiritual Durgadevi,are calling me 3rd class. what should those mahatmas say-those mahatmas who have seen Durgadevi or Sri Krsna- to the mayavadis ???? Why can't you see it this way ??? Is it so difficult ???

It should be very clear to all hindus and not just mayavadis : To even think that Sri Ramacandra has a sattvic body or that shyamsundara has a sattvic body is detrimental for any kind of success- in the way to achieve wealth or mukti. Mayavadis who offend Bhagavan in such a way obviously never even come close to overcoming maya.Bhagavan says,"It My Maya and she works according to My will." So there is no question of the offending mayavadi ever becoming a gyani/mahatma. And here,some people are demanding why we criticize such '"great" mayavadis.If a mayavadi is not even a mahatma,there is no question of even giving him the respect that is reserved for the great Brahmgyanis of satyuga,dwapara yuga etc.

tell me what grudges can a advaitist nurse ?? That his nirguna Brahm is getting offended by "Limiting Him to a Form" ??? Who is getting offended ??? His hands ?? His legs ??? His mind ??? Or his nose ??? Everything is BRahm,according to him.The words "Brahm has a form Strictly." is also Brahm.So where is the question of offense ??? I will chastise a person who thinks that the Lord has a material body as I'd do the same to a person who declares that Brahmadeva is a menial chandala. It's COMMON SENSE actually. You call a supremely pure Person as merely being equal to the lusty devas and you DESERVE chastisement. Is it clear ? Which scriptures,my dear ??? The vedas address the Supreme Person. Like sant rightly revealed and Ramanuja pointed out : "Satyam Gyanam Anantam Brahm." Brahm has infinite Paraphernalia.To think that Brahm is NOT A PERSON is plain short sightedness. Obviously,demons nowadays reject the vedas.So i can understand....But then again,which hindu scrptures are more accepted than the vedas? The Supreme Lord to advaitist is Nirguna Brahm ??? fine.But won't the realised jnani have FULL knowledge that the 'offending' bhagavata and himself are essentially the same ??? Where is the question of offense ???? The Mother of the Universe,is tamasic as Rudrani ???? How sweet.Equating Her to demons,now,are you ?? Ignorant people believe that Lord Shiva,being in charge of destruction,is "bewildered" by Tamas guna and is thus situated in it. Even you seem to feel somewhat similar. Great. You call her nothing short of a demoness by saying she is tamasic. for eg ????? I strongly believe in Acintya Bheda abheda which resolves all the doctrines and which is self sufficient and supremely independent. It is the ocean where all the doctrines approach and empty themselves. whatever that means.

under the banner of hinduism,you are all spreading nonsense... for kali upasaka : How would it feel if I say the Mother of the Universe,Durga has a sattvic body.Oh,it will be maintained till long,but the body gets destroyed just like any other human body. How does it feel ??? It is downright insulting,isn't it ??? Now reconsider your position before even trying to analyse the behaviour of the Bhagavatas who are the personal associates of the Supreme Lord and who constantly see His infinitely Blissful Form. This is how it is..These are the implications of mayavada. As for the anger they display...it is related to Bhagavan..It's not that the mayavadi called the Bhagavata a cheat and that's why he got angry...No...They DESPISE personal honour...And as the Bhagavatam states,everything in relation to the Lord is beyond maya...so whatever emotions/leelas/desires these vaishnavas express on earth are free from the slightest scent of maya.. So if they show anger doesn't mean they are under maya.Maya runs away from them the moment they attain the vision of the Lord.

why are you people so overexcited and 'outraged' when SP called the mayavadis(some of them insist they be called Narayana.Others just plainly denounce deity worship.He called SUCH people) rascals ??? Do you even know how it is ??? WHo are THESE mayavadis we talk about ??? Mayavadis CAn NEVER achieve Brahmananda if they even think that Sri KRsna is mayic..I challenge to your face. In the geeta,Sri Krsna states,"This is MY maya.No one can overcome her without My approval." So you ALL think you've got it all figured out...But,basically,you all reject Bhagavad Gita,thus rejecting Hinduism itself. And if you are so sure...get me one single mayavadi(who strongly declares that Bhagavan is mayic) and who is situated in Brahma samadhi. The truth is,a person who even thinks in the slightest that Bhagavan is sattvic,can NEVER EVEN achieve a slight advancement . Which are the advaitists you talk about who have gained jnana while fully maintaining that Sri Krsna had a material body ???? Produce just one name here...don't try to even think that you can get away with this.

oh God... referencing Sambya's good mimicry of my hypothetical conversation between a bhagavata and a mayavadi... it is not the same... The bhagavata purana states that mayavadis offend the Supreme Lord by declaring Him to be Mayic. That's like saying Brahmadeva is a chandala. You expect bhagavatas not to criticise the mayavadis when they call Sat.Chit.Ananda. Sri Krsna/Sri Rama as sattvic ???? Sattva guna is worse than garbage in front of the nature of Bhagavan. You won't understand this.To you it's not important...You may be a great kali bhakta or whatever..but it doesn't help even one bit when you think that Bhagavan has a sattvic body...It's an offense...blasphemy... Like saying Jagadamba is like an ordinary woman of Mumbai...You just don't get it do you...?? If you say that Bhagavatas are wrong when they criticise the mayavadis,then so be it. at the end of the day,whatever you believe is JUST mayavada.. for you,sab chalta hai...mix everything and then just keep on speculating on it.

Hello Sambya. No.Not BOTH material and spiritual sufferings.ONLY material sufferings.There are no spiritual sufferings. I understand your doubt and i'll try my best to clarify it. When a beggar is suffering,both the rich,kind man(Say X) feels sad for him BUT X doesn't feel sad for a criminal who suffers in jail. Now we're talking about mahabhagavatas like Prahlad etc. here. So Mahabhagavatas feel sad even for the criminal.They see the Supreme Lord everywhere(paramhamsas) and even in the criminal.They KNOW, "Ah-this jeevatma is suffering due to illusion-he has forgotten the Lord.Just look how he is trying to find happiness in money and getting frustrated over and over.Only if somehow i could make him cleanse his heart then Shyamsundar will make him fully blissful like Himself." THIS is their line of thinking.They don't feel sad that a person has lost his house/car.They don't Sympathise becoz the car was a source of "happiness" for that man. They sympathise even with the rich man and ALSO with the poor man becoz house/car or not,BOTH are in misery. This is not a taunt,just a way of making you understand, Mayavadi : Brahm has no form.All forms are of maya. Bhagavata in his mind,"Oh I have seen MYSELF the eternal,Blissful form of My shyamsundara and I SEE the eternal Vaikuntha ever fixed and yet this mayavadi is speaking like this.No doubt he speaks about the formless aspect of My Lord,but still this is not beneficial for the devotees.If i don't criticise him,they will be confused and UNDERMINE the form of Shyamsundar." So Bhagavata to mayavadi : You are a rascal.

I have seen so many like you(devgopaldas).Whenever a mahabhagavata appears,unscrupulous people are always there. It doesn't matter if your from Sri Sampradaya or Madhva sampradaya,an offense to a mahabhagavata is irreparable..beyond any hope. I won't say much to you but I will remove the link. The fault is mine.Whenever someone posts a link or a vid of any great mahatma,people think it is advertising. I presumed all the great vaishnavas which were there on this forum before,would still be here now...and that this might help THEM. But i see lots has changed here.

I'm just overwhelmed rite now... Hope this is a great inspiration for all the devotees. radhe radhe