Sarva gattah

Only those who desire to enjoy seperately from Krishna are transferred from their svarupa body in Goloka or Vaikuntha and enter the mahat-tattva in a dreaming state. If one is Krishna Conscious they will never 'consciously' fall down "The material body has no factual existence in relation to the eternal soul. It is something like a dream. In a dream we may think of flying in the sky, or sitting on a chariot as a king, but when we wake up we can see that we are neither in the sky nor seated on the chariot " - Contents of the Gita Summarized TEXT 28 purport Hey Guruvani me good mate, any wonder you haven't thrown this one at me "Just as in a dream we may create so many things which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream". Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 16.8

‘Even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will (can) fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Srila Prabhupada Bhag.-gita class, class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

There are many places in shastra that explains svarupa means out bodily form in Goloka<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The word svarūpa-sthaḥ is also very significant. The real identity of the individual soul lies in understanding or attaining the knowledge that he is eternally a servant of Kṛṣṇa. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This understanding is called svarūp opalabdhi. By culturing devotional service, the devotee gradually comes to understand his actual relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This understanding of one's pure spiritual position is called svarūpopalabdhi, and when one attains that stage he can understand how he is related with the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a servant or friend or as a parent or conjugal lover. This stage of understanding is called svarūpa-sthah. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.23.18<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> svarūpa-sthah means being situated in one's constitutional position<o:p></o:p> svarūpa — original form Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.6<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And what is that form?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But with the eyes of love of Godhead one can see its real identity (svarūpa-prakāśa — manifestation of identity) as the place where Lord Krishna performs His pastimes with the cowherd boys and cowherd girls.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.21<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> "These are the principal manifestations and expansions of the Personality of Godhead and His three energies. They are all emanations from Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Transcendence. They have their existence in Him.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.104 svarūpa-gaṇa — means personal forms and not sparks or atoms in some effulgence<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>It must be pointed out clearly that the living entity is always marginal because of the ability to stay in Goloka or go to the mahat-tattva. Marginal also means the ability to choose as Srila Prabhupada explains. Also jiva-tattva can never become Vishnu tattva, such an idea is impersonalism. Akruranatha has also made comments that all the gopis and cowherd boys cannot fall down from Goloka, that is true but what does fall down really mean? The answer is their nitya-siddha bodies are eternally in Goloka but some, who are marginal energy , can, and do sometimes fall down in a sub-conscious non-Krishna dream state, but never as their nitya-siddha body. Many residents of Goloka are Vishnu-tattva and yes, they can never fall down in anyway however, all jiva-tattva’s can fall down from their own nitya-siddha body that eternally serves Krishna, even from Goloka. ‘Even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Srila Prabhupada Bhag.-gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974) comment - When one again begins to becomes fully Krishna Conscious, their nitya-baddha transformation in the material creation begins to dissipate and one’s genuine conscious awareness returns back to their unadulterated authentic svarupa bodily identity. In this way the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve and be as if it never was, or that one never left Goloka or Vaikuntha in the first place. Srila Prabhupada confirms this ‘This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38) comment - In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is dispelled as the awareness of the marginal living entities full bodily potential once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha residents and bodily position in Krishna Lila. It is obvious there are innumerable expansions of Krishna (energetic) who are not marginal but are direct expansions of Krishna acting out in different rasa’s. They include Radha, Balarama. Lord Caitanya (the combination of Radha and Krishna) Narayana, Siva, Luxmi. Everyone in the Panca tattva except Narada muni (he is jiva-tattva etc </o:p>

There are many places in shastra that explains svarupa means out bodily form in Goloka The Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6 The word svarūpa-sthaḥ is also very significant. The real identity of the individual soul lies in understanding or attaining the knowledge that he is eternally a servant of Kṛṣṇa. This understanding is called svarūp opalabdhi. By culturing devotional service, the devotee gradually comes to understand his actual relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This understanding of one's pure spiritual position is called svarūpopalabdhi, and when one attains that stage he can understand how he is related with the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a servant or friend or as a parent or conjugal lover. This stage of understanding is called svarūpa-sthah. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.23.18 svarūpa-sthah means being situated in one's constitutional position svarūpa — original form Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.6 And what is that form? But with the eyes of love of Godhead one can see its real identity (svarūpa-prakāśa — manifestation of identity) as the place where Lord Krishna performs His pastimes with the cowherd boys and cowherd girls.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.21 "These are the principal manifestations and expansions of the Personality of Godhead and His three energies. They are all emanations from Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the Transcendence. They have their existence in Him.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.104 svarūpa-gaṇa — means personal forms and not sparks or atoms in some effulgence

Some have said - What we were trying to get at earlier is, where is this conception of “jiva tatastha” as a state of impersonal consciousness or a place of origin coming from? As far as I know, Srila Prabhupada only used “tatastha” as referring to the marginal quality of the jivas, in that they can be situated under the protection of internal energy in their constitutional position as pure devotees, but they can also be covered by the illusory energy. As such, he is using the word “tatastha” to refer to what the jiva *is*, not a place it may be or state of consciousness it may undergo. The jiva in Vaikuntha is tatastha shakti, the jiva in sayujya is tatastha shakti, and the jiva in samsara is tatastha shakti. The jiva is always tatastha shakti, but the jiva properly *belongs* in Vaikuntha’<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Comment – ‘The word tatastha by ITS ENGLISH DEFINITION does NOT refer to the jiva - tattva in its full nitya-siddha glory and potential in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, Tatastha means borderline. The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land.. According that description, those who claim we are originally tatastha are wrong. I cannot accept your interpretation because tatastha refers only to the nitya-baddha dreaming Consciousness. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Others have said that the gopis and cowherd boys cannot fall down from Goloka, that is true but what does fall down really mean? The answer is their nitya-siddha bodies are eternally in Goloka but some, who are marginal energy or jiva-tattva, can, and do sometimes fall down in a sub-conscious non-Krishna dream state, but never as their nitya-siddha body. Many residents of Goloka are Vishnu-tattva and yes, they can never fall down in anyway however, all jiva-tattva’s can fall down, even from Goloka.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ‘Even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will (can) fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Srila Prabhupada Bhag.-gita class, class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974) Akruranatha says – ‘I also looked for the part in Nectar of Devotion where Srila Prabhupada talked about jivas being able to manifest a certain percentage of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comJuly 4, 1974</st1:date>)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s qualities, Lord Siva a greater percentage, and Lord Narayan an even greater percentage. I could not find that exact part, but the discussions of the qualities of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> were illuminating’ <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <FONT size=2>Comment – This seems to imply the Lord Siva and Lord Narayana are jiva which is incorrect, they are plenary expansions of Krishna or Vishnu tattva and this comment you have quoted is very misleading’. <o:p></o:p> <FONT size=2>.<o:p></o:p> <FONT size=2>Akruranatha further says - “Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, some hear of him as amazing, and others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all.” (B.G. 2.29) This is a great subject matter and if I can truly understand it my life will be perfect. Throughout Srila Prabhupada’s books and lectures, he has stated that the jivas are tatastha shakti. For example: “As stated in the Bhagavad Gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva.’<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <FONT size=2> <FONT size=2>Comment – ‘Yes I agree with you but this refers to the soul OUTSIDE of Goloka, it refers to the nitya-baddha consciousness and not ones nitya-siddha eternal bodily identity that is perpetually in Goloka or Vaikuntha’.<o:p> </o:p> <o:p></o:p> <FONT size=2>Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <FONT size=2> <FONT size=2>‘You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Year="1971" Day="30" Month="7">July 30, 1971</st1:date> -<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <FONT size=2> <FONT size=2>‘Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being. . . has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of one’s constitutional position… We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one. ...the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity... The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.” Bhagavad-gita, Introduction." Comment means me<o:p></o:p>

Dear Sevabhakta, I am simply trying to present the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. The quotes many of us who believe we are in Goloka and are presently dreaming in the mahat-ttava or even in the impersonal Brahmajyoit are said by Srila Prabhupada as previosly quoted on many postings and threads. It is Srila Prabhupadas teachings and not mine, I am simply repeating what he has told us humbly Sarva, Ps I saw some Narayana Maharaj disciples of about 19 and 20 years of age chanting on the streets today and it was very inspiring, one spoke out to the crowd saying, 'we chant Hare Krishna because we just want to be with Krishna". I thought that was very sweet and innocent.

Finally someone has understood that our 'svarupa body’ is eternally in Goloka or Vaikuntha and cannot be tatastha; I enjoyed reading jappa Jims understanding of Shastra, very interesting points For emphasis I will repeat: jappa Jim - “You belong to Krishna’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency.” The liberated nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna in Goloka are not between the material and spiritual potencies. They are manifested in Vrindavan via hladini-shakti as consorts or sandhini-shakti in the other rasas with Krishna. jappa Jim - Tatastha-shakti is the jiva who is exposed to the material energy with the potential to transfer to the spiritual internal energy. The pure devotees of Krishna in Goloka are not in that situation. comment - It must be pointed out clearly that the living entity is always marginal because of the ability to stay in Goloka or go to the mahat-tattva. Marginal also means the ability to choose as Srila Prabhupada explains. Also jiva-tattva can never become Vishnu tattva, such an idea is impersonalism. Akruranatha has also made comments that all the gopis and cowherd boys cannot fall down from Goloka, that is true but what does fall down really mean? The answer is their nitya-siddha bodies are eternally in Goloka but some, who are marginal energy , can, and do sometimes fall down in a sub-conscious non-Krishna dream state, but never as their nitya-siddha body. Many residents of Goloka are Vishnu-tattva and yes, they can never fall down in anyway however, all jiva-tattva’s can fall down from their own nitya-siddha body that eternally serves Krishna, even from Goloka. ‘Even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Srila Prabhupada Bhag.-gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974) comment - When one again begins to becomes fully Krishna Conscious, their nitya-baddha transformation in the material creation begins to dissipate and one’s genuine conscious awareness returns back to their unadulterated authentic svarupa bodily identity. In this way the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve and be as if it never was, or that one never left Goloka or Vaikuntha in the first place. Srila Prabhupada confirms this ‘This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38) comment - In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is dispelled as the awareness of the marginal living entities full bodily potential once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha residents and bodily position in Krishna Lila. It is obvious there are innumerable expansions of Krishna (energetic) who are not marginal but are direct expansions of Krishna acting out in different rasa’s. They include Radha, Balarama. Lord Caitanya (the combination of Radha and Krishna) Narayana, Siva, Luxmi. Everyone in the Panca tattva except Narada muni (he is jiva-tattva etc NOTE - comment means me

Part 2 - Let’s humbly try to explain this subject with the help of Srila Prabhupada, so we can understand our Original constitutional position and how we are now in the material creation.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In simply English, not only do we ORIGINALLY come from You can also find so many quotes from Srila Prabhupada that do back up your concept of that all jivas are tatastha, I am aware of them all however, Srila Prabhupada clearly states in simple English - ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam<o:p></o:p> 4.28.54, purport)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Once again could there be no confusion on this issue or argument because by manifesting as our nitya-baddha consciousness, then in that condition all jiva’s are tatastha because it is the lower conscious state of the marginal living entity (the higher state being ones nitya-siddha svarupa perpetual body beyond mundane time and space).<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Now let’s look at this in a clear way. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> If our perpetual body is always in Goloka or Vrndavana as nitya-siddha, then what is the jiva-tatastha referring to? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This word according to its description does not and can never refer to ones higher 'svarupa' self or nitya-siddha body that is eternally situated and founded in beautiful Goloka or Vaikuntha. So what does jiva tatastha and all the descriptions in shastra really referring to? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The answer is quite simple; tatastha refers to the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that only manifests when the marginal living entity is unfit to remain in Goloka and the svarupa body they serve <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com . [font=' alt='> <st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s eternal Kingdom. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations and the marginal living entities secondary conscious dreaming state. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Why do you think Maha-Vishnu is lying down in the mahat-tattva and dreaming? Isn’t scripturally obvious that Maha-Vishnu's dreams ARE the dreams of the marginal living entity in their lower nitya-baddha consciousness?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa: Fall down?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, <st1:place>Cheviot Hills</st1:place> Golf Course <st1:date Month="5" Day="13" Year="1973">May 13, 1973</st1:date> <st1:City><st1:place>Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Ravindra Svarup Prabhu understands this but believes others must personally come to this realization‘‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ‘It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti — love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This verse means our relationship is already there in Goloka beyond the mahat-tattva aspect of time and space.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In other words we are already in Goloka we just have to be selflessly Krishna Conscious to realize our 'svarupa' body that instantaneously eradicates our present mundane nitya-baddha consciousness like light dissipates darkness.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Conclusion - We are not jiva-tatastha in our ORIGINAL position because we are nitya-siddha and always have been. Only in the material creation and impersonal Brahmajyoti can our lower nitya-baddha consciousness appear as borderline or jiva-tatastha<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> There is really no argument because we are always serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> yet sometimes dream we are not, it’s as simple as that.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas ] are eternally associated without any break. . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . . There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation-the six material changes-are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world”. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In other words even when one is off dreaming in the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, their svarupa body is ALWAYS SERVING <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> regardless. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' secondary consciousness or lower self manifests as jiva-tatastha while our ‘svarupa’ or nitya-siddha body remains undisturbed always in Goloka.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee –“Srila Prabhupada, What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?’<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Month="7" Day="30" Year="1971">July 30, 1971</st1:date> - <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’ or dream we have fallen, but actually we are not fallen – it is simply a condition of consciousness. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall. <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. Krishna Consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position" Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Month="8" Day="27" Year="1967">August 27, 1967</st1:date><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This restricted conscious awareness or dreaming condition of the marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa living entity is called the marginal nitya-baddha sub-consciousness dreaming condition. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s/Gods creation and how each marginal living entity has a two fold reality, one permanent (nitya-siddha) and one impermanent and illusionary (nitya-baddha) like the dreams one has at night. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, so <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity"<st1:date Month="4" Day="20" Year="1972">April 20, 1972</st1:date>, in <st1:place><st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha and not ones nitya-siddha body because ones original 'svarupa' form never leaves Goloka.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many Vaishnava sects who wrongly believe that the jiva/soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will. Such Vishnava groups do not understand the two facades of each and every marginal living entity. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Once again, we can not understand this through book knowledge alone; we must have realizations as Hari Sauri Prabhu once explained to me a long time ago.<o:p></o:p>

Part 2 - Let’s humbly try to explain this subject with the help of Srila Prabhupada, so we can understand our Original constitutional position and how we are now in the material creation.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In simply English, not only do we ORIGINALLY come from ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com <o:p></o:p> The answer is quite simple; tatastha refers to the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that only manifests when the marginal living entity is unfit to remain in Goloka and the svarupa body they serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s eternal Kingdom. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations and the marginal living entities secondary conscious dreaming state. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Why do you think Maha-Vishnu is lying down in the mahat-tattva and dreaming? Isn’t scripturally obvious that Maha-Vishnu's dreams ARE the dreams of the marginal living entity in their lower nitya-baddha consciousness?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa: Fall down?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, <st1:place>Cheviot Hills</st1:place> Golf Course <st1:date Month="5" Day="13" Year="1973">May 13, 1973</st1:date> <st1:City><st1:place>Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Ravindra Svarup Prabhu understands this but believes others must personally come to this realization‘‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ‘It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti — love for <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This verse means our relationship is already there in Goloka beyond the mahat-tattva aspect of time and space.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In other words we are already in Goloka we just have to be selflessly Krishna Conscious to realize our 'svarupa' body that instantaneously eradicates our present mundane nitya-baddha consciousness like light dissipates darkness.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Conclusion - We are not jiva-tatastha in our ORIGINAL position because we are nitya-siddha and always have been. Only in the material creation and impersonal Brahmajyoti can our lower nitya-baddha consciousness appear as borderline or jiva-tatastha<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> There is really no argument because we are always serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> yet sometimes dream we are not, it’s as simple as that.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas ] are eternally associated without any break. . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . . There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation-the six material changes-are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world”. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In other words even when one is off dreaming in the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, their svarupa body is ALWAYS SERVING <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> regardless. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' secondary consciousness or lower self manifests as jiva-tatastha while our ‘svarupa’ or nitya-siddha body remains undisturbed always in Goloka.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Devotee –“Srila Prabhupada, What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?’<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Month="7" Day="30" Year="1971">July 30, 1971</st1:date> - <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’ or dream we have fallen, but actually we are not fallen – it is simply a condition of consciousness. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall. <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. Krishna Consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position" Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Month="8" Day="27" Year="1967">August 27, 1967</st1:date><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This restricted conscious awareness or dreaming condition of the marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa living entity is called the marginal nitya-baddha sub-consciousness dreaming condition. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s/Gods creation and how each marginal living entity has a two fold reality, one permanent (nitya-siddha) and one impermanent and illusionary (nitya-baddha) like the dreams one has at night. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, so <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity"<st1:date Month="4" Day="20" Year="1972">April 20, 1972</st1:date>, in <st1:place><st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha and not ones nitya-siddha body because ones original 'svarupa' form never leaves Goloka.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many Vaishnava sects who wrongly believe that the jiva/soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will. Such Vishnava groups do not understand the two facades of each and every marginal living entity. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Once again, we can not understand this through book knowledge alone; we must have realizations as Hari Sauri Prabhu once explained to me a long time ago.<o:p></o:p>

Let’s all try to humbly and intelligently understand this topic with a cool head, bad mouthing each other is not the way of aspiring Vaishnavas. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> To start with lets not name any other Hindu sect's impersonal beliefs on our origins because there is so many of them and as far as I am concerned any group who claims the marginal living entity comes from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or jiva-tatastha (borderline) are either impersonalists or effected by impersonalism. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> If someone said "I just appeared and had no mother or father" I would be offended, that’s an insult to my parents. In other words all of us come from ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comAlthough that does not mean they cannot become personalist and realize they already have a perpetual 'svarupa' body eternally situated is a rasa relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is forever without beginning and end. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Now let’s look at this in a clear way. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> If our perpetual body is always in Goloka or Vrndavana as nitya-siddha, then what is the jiva-tatastha referring to? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - 'They are to be awakened to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. It does not mean they are actually separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. But they have to be awakened. They say man is not dead, he is sleeping. But he has to be awakened. As soon as he is awakened, he remembers immediately. This is called svapna-citta-nyaya. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila prabhupada - "I am sleeping, forgetting everything. I am in a different place. But as soon as I am awakened I remember, “Oh, I have to do this, I have to go there.” So this forgetfulness is a temporary illusion, that’s all. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually we don’t forget. It is temporary. Ātma-mayam ṛte. It is only it is action of God’s external energy. Because I wanted to forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, therefore <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has helped me in forgetting Him by His own illusory energy. Have sankīrtana. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.9.4<o:p></o:p> by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda<o:p></o:p> Japan, <st1:date Month="4" Day="22" Year="1972">April 22, 1972</st1:date><o:p></o:p> full lecture:http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/720422SB.TOK.htm?i=Japan <o:p></o:p> This word tatastha according to its description certainly does not and can never refer to ones higher 'svarupa' self or nitya-siddha body that is eternally situated and founded in BEAUTUL Goloka OR Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So what does jiva-tatastha and all the descriptions found in shastra, really referring to? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The answer is quite simple. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Tatastha refers to the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that only manifests when the marginal living entity is unfit to remain in Goloka and the svarupa body they serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as, in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s eternal Kingdom. Such nitya-baddha consciousness is therefore transferred to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and His maha-tattva creation. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Please read that paragraph again to understand us, the marginal living entities, DO NOT ORIGINATE FROM TATASTHA because our ORIGINAL position is already established perpetually in Goloka as an individual servant of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in a particular rasa that has eternally been going on. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Factually we will never understand this until we are SELFLESSLY <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious. We will never understand this from only reading books - it can only fully come from personal realizations by the grace of Prabhupada and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The tatastha condition of consciousness is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness, dreaming within the mahat-tattva creation of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu, or within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that is the space in-between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The confusion and contradictions in trying to understand this, is only there is shastra when one cannot appreciate what the Vedas are referring to. In most cases when the shastra refers to the terminology 'jiva' it is referring to jiva-tatastha, jiva-tattva etc which is the nitya-baddha consciousness and NOT ones nitya-siddha higher self. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Understanding this understands the secret of the Vedanta.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations and the marginal living entities secondary conscious dreaming state. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Why do you think Maha-Vishnu is lying down in the mahat-tattva and dreaming? Isn't is scripturally obvious that Maha-Vishnu's dreams ARE the dreams of the marginal living entity in their lower nitya-baddha consciousness?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Paramahamsa: Fall down?<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, <st1:place>Cheviot Hills</st1:place> Golf Course <st1:date Month="5" Day="13" Year="1973">May 13, 1973</st1:date> <st1:City><st1:place>Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport" letter to Australian Devotees 1972<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita.(Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p>

Let’s all try to humbly and intelligently understand this topic with a cool head, bad mouthing each other is not the way of aspiring Vaishnavas. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> To start with lets not name any other Hindu sect's impersonal beliefs on our origins because there is so many of them and as far as I am concerned any group who claims the marginal living entity comes from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or jiva-tatastha (borderline) are either impersonalists or effected by impersonalism. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> If someone said "I just appeared and had no mother or father" I would be offended, that’s an insult to my parents. In other words all of us come from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s personal pastime in Goloka or Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Although that does not mean they cannot become personalist and realize they already have a perpetual 'svarupa' body eternally situated is a rasa relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is forever without beginning and end. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Now let’s look at this in a clear way. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> If our perpetual body is always in Goloka or Vrndavana as nitya-siddha, then what is the jiva-tatastha referring to? <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - 'They are to be awakened to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. It does not mean they are actually separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. But they have to be awakened. They say man is not dead, he is sleeping. But he has to be awakened. As soon as he is awakened, he remembers immediately. This is called svapna-citta-nyaya. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila prabhupada - "I am sleeping, forgetting everything. I am in a different place. But as soon as I am awakened I remember, “Oh, I have to do this, I have to go there.” So this forgetfulness is a temporary illusion, that’s all. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually we don’t forget. It is temporary. Ātma-mayam ṛte. It is only it is action of God’s external energy. Because I wanted to forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, therefore <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has helped me in forgetting Him by His own illusory energy. Have sankīrtana. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 2.9.4<o:p></o:p> by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda<o:p></o:p> Japan, <st1:date Month="4" Day="22" Year="1972">April 22, 1972</st1:date><o:p></o:p> full lecture:http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/720422SB.TOK.htm?i=Japan <o:p> </o:p> This word tatastha according to its description certainly does not and can never refer to ones higher 'svarupa' self or nitya-siddha body that is eternally situated and founded in BEAUTUL Goloka OR Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So what does jiva-tatastha and all the descriptions found in shastra, really referring to? <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The answer is quite simple. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Tatastha refers to the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that only manifests when the marginal living entity is unfit to remain in Goloka and the svarupa body they serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as, in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s eternal Kingdom. Such nitya-baddha consciousness is therefore transferred to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and His maha-tattva creation. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Please read that paragraph again to understand us, the marginal living entities, DO NOT ORIGINATE FROM TATASTHA because our ORIGINAL position is already established perpetually in Goloka as an individual servant of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in a particular rasa that has eternally been going on. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Factually we will never understand this until we are SELFLESSLY <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious. We will never understand this from only reading books - it can only fully come from personal realizations by the grace of Prabhupada and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The tatastha condition of consciousness is simply the dreaming condition of the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness, dreaming within the mahat-tattva creation of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu, or within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that is the space in-between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The confusion and contradictions in trying to understand this, is only there is shastra when one cannot appreciate what the Vedas are referring to. In most cases when the shastra refers to the terminology 'jiva' it is referring to jiva-tatastha, jiva-tattva etc which is the nitya-baddha consciousness and NOT ones nitya-siddha higher self. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Understanding this understands the secret of the Vedanta.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations and the marginal living entities secondary conscious dreaming state. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Why do you think Maha-Vishnu is lying down in the mahat-tattva and dreaming? Isn't is scripturally obvious that Maha-Vishnu's dreams ARE the dreams of the marginal living entity in their lower nitya-baddha consciousness?<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Paramahamsa: Fall down?<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, <st1:place>Cheviot Hills</st1:place> Golf Course <st1:date Month="5" Day="13" Year="1973">May 13, 1973</st1:date> <st1:City><st1:place>Los Angeles</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport" letter to Australian Devotees 1972<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita.(Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p>

Because Krishna is the Supreme Personality of God and the cause of all causes, He anticipates the choices of His marginal energy when they choose to enter the material creation or mahat-tattva. In this way, for Krishna to be complete, the marginal potency, including their secondary nitya-baddha transmitted consciousness, actually make Krishna the absolute-whole or simultaneously one and different (acintya-beda-beda-tattva) It is because Krishna allows individuality, He knows in advance that some will choose to reject Him and their own Krishna conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha body and apt for the secondary option which is the mahat-tattva or material universe. For Krishna to be complete, He creates this secondary option via His Maha-Vishnu expansion (technically Maha-Vishnu is an expansion of Balarama who is Krishna’s brother). The mahat-tattva is created ironically out of love for His marginal vigraha devotee’s because He would rather they choice to love or serve Him than be like a slave or ‘mindless’ servant without free will. Therefore one can stay in Krishna’s Autocratic Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm if they choose, or they can ‘consciously’ enter the impermanent mahat-tattva (never as their authentic bodily form as that body is perpetually part and parcel of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky). All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. The marginal potency or sparks emanating from the whole categorically means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form. Sometimes this is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from. It’s only a metaphor, a allegory, a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and bodily form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna). In other words every living entity (marginal potency) has an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. As explained, it is important to understand that Krishna’s marginal potency bodily personalities are the Brahmajyoti!! It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals’ forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, that a secondary non-Krishna conscious phenomenon may sometimes ‘consciously’ leave or be projected from their Krishna conscious authentic original bodily self within the imperishable abode of Krishna (Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). This is how the living entity (a secondary projected non-Krishna conscious self, enters or falls down to the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a inferior non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti existing in the mahat-tattva cloud. <!-- / message -->

Above in quotes are the crazy words of confused 'nitya-baddha' soul forgetful of his genuine nitya-siddha body that is eternally in Goloka Thank you for pointing that out

Above in quotes is the crazy words of confused 'nitya-baddha' soul forgetful of his genuin nitya-siddha body that is eternally in Goloka Sevabhakta and Shambhuddhi dasa (Guruvani) are having a bad dream, yet foolishly think their dream is who they really are The barking dogs will always bark but who care's, the caravan of truth that we ALL originate from Goloka will forever go on, no matter how loud them or any other fools barks that we originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti sevabhakta and Shambhuddhi dasa are polluted with mayavardi philosophy. They are unfortunately polluted by Impersonalism!! The secret of understanding this be first being a devotee of Krishna and not an IMPERSONALIST, only then can one realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young. There is nothing missing because everything is already there in Goloka, Krishna, Radha, Balarama, Caitanya, the gopis, the cow herd boys, etc and ALL the marginal living entities as their nitya-siddha bodies. To remain dreaming in the mahat-tattva denying who we really are is missing out - Try to understand that ALL marginal living entities have a nitya-siddha body that is and always has been without beginning or end in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna. This is what is really going on The marginal living entities in their inferior nitya-baddha dreaming alternative secondary-self bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva temporary material universe. It is there such dreams are provided with ‘real but temporary’ bodily vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha dreams are an illusion however, when Maha-Vishnu provides such dreams and desires with ethereal and biological bodies, such delusional dreams became part of the temporary mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. While the marginal living entity is dreaming as their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, that also can be called the jiva-tattva or jiva s'akti etc, one forgets the superior Krishna Conscious personality of their marginal character (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or the superior personality of their marginal character, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is gradually dissipated like light dissipates darkness so that the marginal living entities superior genuine Krishna Conscious self is re-established We therefore enter the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu as our lower conscious awareness forgetting our actual constitutional position as eternally nitya-siddha and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being's dream, or a display of His thought energy. Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed "beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state. Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38) When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila. Further more the marginal living entities billions of lives, as their embodied inferior nitya-baddha secondary self within the material creation will appear totally insignificant to their superior nitya-siddha bodily aspect of their disposition to the point that it never happened, just like when there is light there is no presents of darkness. In addition, there is also no evidence that darkness exists while there is light. Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist, similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist. Additionally, due to time difference in Vaikuntha, which is devoid of past and future, ones existence in the mahat-tattva, will be insignificant, as if one never left. It will be as if one never left the light so to speak, once back in the light (just an analogy). Therefore ones nitya-siddha svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna Srila Prabhupada - “Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krishna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on. Srila Prabhupada - "And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krishna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So KrishnaYe yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is... " Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity"April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world? Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 - Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen or dream we are somewhere else’. Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”. Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

The secret of understaning this is to realize their is no time as we know it in Goloka, everything there is for ever there and has always been there, nothing comes and nothing goes because every living entity is already there in their full Krishna Conscious constitutional position - this is the meaning of perpetual, never ending and forever young. There is nothing missing because everything is already there in Goloka, Krishna, Radha, Balarama, Caitanya, the gopis, the cow herd boys, etc and ALL the marginal living entities as their nitya-siddha bodies. To remain dreaming in the mahat-tattva denying who we really are is missing out - Try to understand that ALL marginal living entities have a nitya-siddha body that is and always has been without beginning or end in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna.

Sevabhakta you do not understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada or Vedanta Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) , but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comNovember 14, 1968</st1:date>,<o:p></o:p></b> <o:p></o:p> . <b><font face=" /><st1:place><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <FONT color=black><FONT face=Verdana> <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>Sevabhakta, Guruvani whoever, you are dreaming your existence in the material creation while your genuine Krishna Conscious body is eternally devotionally awake in Vaikuntha. <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=4><FONT color=#800080>http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo6wxJmAvfA </st1:place>

Hari Bol Shambhuddhi dasa’s G'day mate, how are ya, you're a bit of a yobbo aren't ya? Or maybe more like a blowie? You can't be Fair dinkum and dinky-di with with all the bodgy things you write on about can you ?You've got Buckley's chance with the blues your makin. She's apples mate? According to Srila Jiva Goswami the living entity may be designated as jiva-maya, whereas matter is called guna-maya. The living entity places his living potency (jiva-maya) in the grip of the mundane qualitative potency (guna-maya) and falsely dreams that he is part and parcel of the material world. Such an artificial mixture is called illusion Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38) Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position” This is what is really going on The marginal living entities in their inferior nitya-baddha dreaming alternative secondary-self bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva temporary material universe. It is there such dreams are provided with ‘real but temporary’ bodily vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha dreams are an illusion however, when Maha-Vishnu provides such dreams and desires with ethereal and biological bodies, such delusional dreams became part of the temporary mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. While the marginal living entity is dreaming as their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, that also can be called the jiva-tattva or jiva s'akti etc, one forgets the superior Krishna Conscious personality of their marginal character (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or the superior personality of their marginal character, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is gradually dissipated like light dissipates darkness so that the marginal living entities superior genuine Krishna Conscious self is re-established We therefore enter the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu as our lower conscious awareness forgetting our actual constitutional position as eternally nitya-siddha and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being's dream, or a display of His thought energy. Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed "beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state. Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38) When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila. Further more the marginal living entities billions of lives, as their embodied inferior nitya-baddha secondary self within the material creation will appear totally insignificant to their superior nitya-siddha bodily aspect of their disposition to the point that it never happened, just like when there is light there is no presents of darkness. In addition, there is also no evidence that darkness exists while there is light. Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist, similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist. Additionally, due to time difference in Vaikuntha, which is devoid of past and future, ones existence in the mahat-tattva, will be insignificant, as if one never left. It will be as if one never left the light so to speak, once back in the light (just an analogy). Therefore ones nitya-siddha svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna Srila Prabhupada - “Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krishna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on. Srila Prabhupada - "And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krishna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So KrishnaYe yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is... " Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity"April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world? Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 - Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen or dream we are somewhere else’. Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”. Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada - "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38) Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban) What is time? What is really going on in the mahat-tattva or material creation? The marginal living entities in their inferior nitya-baddha dreaming alternative secondary-self bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva temporary material universe. It is there such dreams are provided with ‘real but temporary’ bodily vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha dreams are an illusion however, when Maha-Vishnu provides such dreams and desires with ethereal and biological bodies, such delusional dreams became part of the temporary mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. While in the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, also can becalled the jiva-tattva or jiva s'akti etc, one forgets their superior Krishna Conscious personality of their marginal character (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or the superior personality of their marginal character, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is gradually transformed and dissipated so that the marginal living entities superior Krishna Conscious self is all that exists. When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila. Further more the marginal living entities billions of lives, as their embodied inferior nitya-baddha secondary self within the material creation will appear totally insignificant to their superior nitya-siddha bodily aspect of their disposition to the point that it never happened, just like when there is light there is no presents of darkness. In addition, there is also no evidence that darkness exists while there is light. Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist, similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist. Additionally, due to time difference in Vaikuntha, which is devoid of past and future, ones existence in the mahat-tattva, will be insignificant, as if one never left. It will be as if one never left the light so to speak, once back in the light (just an analogy). Therefore ones nitya-siddha svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna

NONSENSE!! Just because you and Guruvani cannot understand that technically we are always with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and presently WE are only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking” we are not with Him, does not mean other devotees can clearly understand this and have actually realized this truth of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s creation. Just because other Vaishnava’s up the road from Mayapur also cannot understand this, you think no-one can understand this.. Why believe their nonsense misconceptions that we all have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti? Srila Prabhupada has told us - :Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”.Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p>A realization of what the mahat-tattva is </o:p> <o:p>The mahat-tattva or material creation of Maha-Vishnu offers the marginal living entity the facility to experience their own desires of splendour without Krishna, The mahat-tattva is made up of dead matter and living matter. The living matter or bodily containers are generated by the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva s'akti that has simultaneously possessed and created an ethereal vessel to begin their journey within the mahat-tattva that can later expand to a biological vessel. In this way all dead matter originates from the presents of life within the mahat-tattva</o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>The ethereal container that are possessed by the nitya-baddha consciousness can further manifest a grosser biological covering, generated by consciousness however, behind the dreams of marginal living entity is the real creator and facilitator that gives bodily form and surroundings to those dreams. </o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>In other words the nitya-baddha consciousness does not create anything because everything is being provided by Maha-Vishnu. </o:p> <o:p>The nitya-baddha consciousness is simply the mistaken bodiless dreams of the marginal living entity when they use their free will to choose to forget their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body that is endless, imperishable and free of the influences of mundane (mahat-tattva and Impersonal Brahman consciousness) time and space. </o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>In this way all marginal living entities (not to be confused with expansions and the billions of different bodily personalities that are Krishna in different moods) have the ability to activate their nitya-baddha secondary consciousness (or jiva-tattva) when they are not desiring to serve and please Krishna selflessly in the personal active devotionally Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha’s. Such ‘non-Krishna conscious dreams’ cannot exist in Goloka and are therefore provided imperishable bodily forms outside the gates of Vaikuntha within the mahat-tattva. </o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>The ethereal and biological vessels they are been provided with. are also created by their dreams yet given facility to experience by Maha-Vishnu. These body forms in the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu, that imprison the nitya-baddha consciousness, are also a component mahat-tattva. </o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>In this way the fulfilment of non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha dreams of the marginal living entity is only possible by the arrangement of Maha-Vishnu who provides the vessel that the nitya-baddha consciousness thinks they are creating. </o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>The mahat-tattva or material creation is therefore the perishable Planets, Moons Suns, Solar systems, Galaxies, innumerable universes as well as the 8,400,0000 species of ethereal and biological vessels under the phenomenon of past, present and future. </o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p>All bodily vessels are part and parcel of the mahat-tattva that is devoid of life until life comes from the Impersonal characteristic of the Brahmajyoti. (Those who had previously found a false liberation from the mahat-tattva by becoming a dormant or dreamless dream state as part of the Impersonal Brahmajyoti) or those who leave Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha in their dreams (not as their perpetual identity or body) and have such dreams be given bodily form by Maha-Vishnu. </o:p>

Two questions?. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p> </o:p> 1.Are we dreaming the material world that is a real but a temporary phenomenon? <o:p> </o:p> 2.And has the marginal living entity a twofold reality, one as a ‘svarupa bodily form’ that is eternal (nitya-siddha) and the other a dreaming secondary consciousness called jiva tatastha, jiva tattva, jiva s’akti etc (nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness) that is also eternal, yet can only exist in a temporary changing atmosphere devoid of any bodily form until provided a vessel from within the unpreserved maha-tattva creation by Maha-Vishnu, His expansions and demigod represenatives? <o:p> </o:p> No offence Guruvani prabhu, but in all humility your ‘cut and paste’ presentation of shastra can only be realized by personal realizations as well and not only book knowledge; could it be possible that some devotees have those realizations that can be explained in a simple way in English that does not deviate from Srila Prabhupada's personal intermit teachings? <o:p> </o:p> Bhakti yoga or loving devotion to Lord Krishna and His dear devotees is not based on jnana (knowledge) or imitation; it is purly based on the simplistic teaching of Lord Chaitanya and the congregational chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha Mantra meant to deliver us back home back to Godhead in this age of Kali-yuga – from whence we originally came from. <o:p> </o:p> In this corrupt day and age it is hard for us judge how <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> gives out his causeless mercy and realizations to His dear aspiring devotees? Is it based on our external appearance and show, or is it based on being helplessly and unconditionally attached to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> from within our heart? Very few can claim to be so selflessly advanced, except the genuine book distributors, pujaris, pot washers etc who are like the humble cobbler in the story of the 'Brahmana and the cobbler' All they know is that book distribution brings the highest pleasure to Srila Prabhupada and Krishna, they are so absorbed in service that they are already nitya-siddha, already aware of their svarupa body in Goloka. <o:p> </o:p> In other words, just because we may not understand that technically we are always with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and presently WE are only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking” we are not with Him, does not mean other devotees do understand this and have actually realized this truth of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s creation. Just because other Vaishnava’s up the road from Mayapur also cannot understand this, do we believe their misconceptions that we all have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti? <o:p> </o:p> Many devotees firmly believe that their claims of shastric interpretations explaining the jiva-s’akti, jiva tatastha, jiva-tattva, jiva maya etc, etc (170 terminologies of the word jiva) are ONLY referring to our secondary or lower conditioned state of consciousness outside the Personal Devotional Active Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky, where we are perpetually serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as our genuine nitya-siddha bodily identity. Such a svarupa personality can never perish and therefore has no beginning or end. This is because our genuine perpetual ‘raza’ relationships serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> are always going on in Goloka, even if we choose to consciously drift off into some self indulgent dream. <o:p> </o:p> The introduction of the Bhagavad-Gita as it is tells us <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi--perfection of one's constitutional position” <o:p> </o:p> What is that state of secondary consciousness called? <o:p> </o:p> This secondary conscious state is called the nitya-baddha consciousness that can ONLY actively take shelter temporarily transmigrating through billions of ethereal and biological containments within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. <o:p> </o:p> This secondary conscious state can further take shelter temporarily in an inactive state of individual consciousness within the Impersonal Brahman aspect of the Spiritual Sky that separates the perpetual energetic (active) IMPERISHABLE Vaikuntha’s from transitory PERSISHABLE energetic (active) maha-tattva (material creation) <o:p> </o:p> In between the active ‘endless’ Vaikunthas and the ‘actively continuously ending’ mahat-tattva, is a dormant state of inactive individual consciousness that is the impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti characteristic of the eternal Spiritual Sky. <o:p> </o:p> According to Srila Jiva Goswami the living entity may be designated as jiva-maya, whereas matter is called guna-maya. The living entity places his living potency (jiva-maya) in the grip of the mundane qualitative potency (guna-maya) and falsely dreams that he is part and parcel of the material world. Such an artificial mixture is called illusion <o:p> </o:p> Question : - What is the meaning of marginal? <o:p> </o:p> Answer: - Subsidiary, supplementary, secondary (in relation to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>) minor, insignificant, accompanying (as individual living entities), subordinate, inferior, lower, lesser, derived, unoriginal (because <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the original) <o:p> </o:p> Therefore it can be said that the marginal living also entity has two characteristics to its existence, the first and foremost is their perpetual nitya-siddha bodily identity established within eternal time in Goloka, the second is their nitya-baddha consciousness that can only exist outside Goloka. <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "When a living being is thus graced by the Lord, he is placed in his proper constitutional position to enjoy eternal spiritual life" .Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.3.34 <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "You are right when you say our past life is a dream only. Just like at night we see so many dreams and in daytime we forget everything. Similarly we forget everything of our past life and as such so long we do not be reposed to our spiritual factual life, all these changes of lives one after another are considered to be dreams" Letter to Nandakisora, <st1:date Month="12" Day="24" Year="1967">Sunday, December 24, 1967</st1:date>

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Year="1971" Day="30" Month="7">July 30, 1971</st1:date> - <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall. <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. Krishna Consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position" Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Year="1967" Day="27" Month="8">August 27, 1967</st1:date><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> This restricted conscious awareness or dreaming condition of the marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa living entity is called the marginal nitya-baddha sub-consciousness dreaming condition. <o:p> </o:p> Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s/Gods creation and how each marginal living entity has a two fold reality, one permanent (nitya-siddha) and one impermanent and illusionary (nitya-baddha) like the dreams one has at night. <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, so <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity"<st1:date Year="1972" Day="20" Month="4">April 20, 1972</st1:date>, in <st1:place><st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place> <o:p> </o:p> Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha and not ones nitya-siddha body because ones original 'svarupa' form never leaves Goloka.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many Vaishnava sects who wrongly believe that the jiva/soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will. Such Vishnava groups do not understand the two facades of each and every marginal living entity. <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The ‘Impersonalist Brahmajyoti-origin believers’ also incorrectly believe the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha or jiva/souls have never previously seen Krishna, in this way their Impersonal understanding obstructs them from understanding that long, long, long before their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness entered the mahat-tattva and then, after much struggle in the maha-tattva (material creation) , entered the temporary borderline jiva-tatastha condition of consciousness, they were with Krishna, not as their insubstantial nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha consciousness, but as their endless beautiful perpetual nitya-siddha- Svarupa body that can never ever fall down from Goloka. <o:p> </o:p> Nitya-siddha can never fall down from Goloka, therefore non of us fall down however we do sometimes dream or think we fall down, such dreaming and thinking creates the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness that is also called the jiva-tatastha, jiva-bhutah, jiva-s'akti and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on the condition of consciousness the nitya-baddha sub-consciousness 'dreams' to be in outside of Goloka and Vaikuntha. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The nitya-baddha dreaming lower consciousness state of the living entities caracture can also appear to resemble an Impersonal inactive spark of consciousness as part of a collective in the Brahmajyoti or Brahma-sayujya (individual dormant consciousness as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness, they had first chose to extend from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha serving Krishna, as an unconscious dream called the nitya-baddha sub-conscious desires, thoughts and non-Krishna conscious dreams that first enter the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu, going on for millions upon millions of births until eventually reaching that Impersonal Brahmajyoti aspect of ones nitya-baddha consciousness, or by the mercy of a pure devotee of Krishna begins to re-establish the connection to their genuine identity. <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, so <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this.April 20, 1972, in <st1:place><st1:City>Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region>Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place> <o:p></o:p>

We are always marginal regardless of being in Goloka or 'dreaming" we are in the mahat-tattva or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. Only the nitya-baddha 'dreaming' consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha and not ones nitya-siddha body because ones original 'svarupa' form never leaves Goloka. Srila Prbhupada - "The conditioned soul is the marginal potency overpowered by the external potency. However, when the marginal potency comes under the jurisdiction of the spiritual potency, it becomes eligible for love of Godhead." Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.