Sarva gattah

No matter how many times you tell Guruvani this, his little brain cannot understand No one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka!! Please understand that once and for all. It is only because of the absence of the time factor that there is no disappearance of ones 'svarupa' in Goloka, therefore it is always there serving Krishna regardless. Eventually when one one’s 'dreaming imaginary self or the nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated, and one has returned to their full spiritual potential and awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna. Once one has reverts, one realizes themself as their endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body and ones so called fall down will be as if it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know and experience it in the mahat-tattva, that exists in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine (our svarupa) with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Avinash So, you are saying that we are in Golok. We feel we are on Earth because we dream of being on Earth. What about those living in Vaikunth? Are they really in Vaikunth or are they in Golok and dreaming of being in Vaikunth? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Avinash, the ISKCON movement do not except the impersonal maya-vardi nonsense delusions of Guruvani, Begger and buddies. Here is the offical ISKCON BBT understanding on this subject and that we ALL came from Goloka http://www.jswami.info/jiva Since the early 1970s, Jayadvaita Swami has served as an editor or assistant editor with the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust, working on nearly all the books which his guru, Srila Prabhupada, published throughout his lifetime<SUP>[1]</SUP>. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> "Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens”. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.107

Srila Prabhupada tells us that our original position is nothing less than being a fully developed perpetually nitya-siddha devotee eternally serving Krishna as our eternal self (svarupa) in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness that is restricted by the past, present and future within the mahat-tattva cloud in the far corner of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky. <o:p></o:p>

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Avinash So, let us consider the possibility that we are still in spiritual world but dreaming ourselves to be in material world. Those who are in Golok at present are not dreaming but we are dreaming. Suppose those residents look at what you are doing in 2007. What do they see? They see that you are dreaming. Of course, they are not dreaming. But they see you dreaming. They see that you are factually in spiritual world but you are dreaming of being in material world. If we are factually not in material world and we are only dreaming to be in material world, then is it possible that material world does not even exist in fact? Its existence is merely a dream? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Srila Prabhupada clearly explains here how the non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) that are sub-consciously separate from ones marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body, are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. This secondary (conditioned) extension of the marginal living entities is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted self centred thoughts and awareness manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - 'There is possibility (falling from Vaikuntha), if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down'. Bhag.-Gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up Krishna.” <o:p></o:p> T<o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada therefore clearly tells us that we have never been always conditioned because factually our svarupa body is always in Goloka, only our 'dreaming' consciousness comes to the mahat-tattva from Vaikuntha, although as complicated as it may be to understand, our nitya-baddha conscious condition is only temporarily exists. In this way just as the sun dissipates the darkness, when one is fully established as their nitya-siddha authentic eternal body, the darkness or the nitya-baddha counterfeit consciousness, will simply not exist. This is because our non-Krishna conscious desires or the nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity can never exist in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.<o:p></o:p>

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: From the Teachings of Lord Caitanya Chapter 25: Personal and Impersonal Realization "I - The original energy of the Supreme Lord is spiritual and nondifferent from the Supreme Absolute Personality of Godhead. 2 - The living entity is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. 3 -The material energy is called the inferior energy. Due to his material inebriety (temporary state - a state that continues for a limited time), the living entity in the marginal position becomes entangled with the inferior energy, matter. At such a time he forgets his spiritual significance, identifies himself with material energy and thereby becomes subjected to the threefold miseries. Only when he is free from such material contamination can he be situated in his proper position. According to Vedic instructions, one should understand the constitutional position of the living entity, the position of the Lord, and the position of material energy in their interrelation. First of all, one should try to understand the constitutional position of the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead. That Supreme Lord has an eternal, cognizant, blissful body, and His spiritual energy is distributed as eternity, knowledge and bliss. In His blissful identity can be found His pleasure potency, and in His eternal identity He can be seen as the cause of everything. In His cognizant identity, He is the supreme knowledge. Indeed, the word kṛṣṇa indicates that supreme knowledge. In other words, the Supreme Personality, Kṛṣṇa, is the reservoir of all knowledge, pleasure and eternity. The supreme knowledge of Kṛṣṇa is exhibited in three different energies — internal, marginal and external. A - By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; B - By means of His marginal energy, He exhibits Himself as the living entities. C - By means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance. (awareness, consciousness, cognizance, cognisance, knowingness) 1 - The conditioned soul is the marginal potency overpowered by the external potency. 2 - However, when the marginal potency comes under the jurisdiction of the spiritual potency, it becomes eligible for love of Godhead. The Supreme Lord enjoys six kinds of opulences, and no one can establish that He is formless or that He is without energy. If someone claims so, his contention is completely opposed to the Vedic instructions. Actually the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of ali energies. It is only the living entity, who is an infinitesimal part and parcel of Him, who is overpowered by the material energy".End of quotes from the Teachings of Lord CaitanyaCopyright © The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International, Inc.

You have completely misunderstood my post. I was trying to be simple and short thinking you would understand - read the reply to Beggers post. <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist I still maintain this puzzle cannot be solved philosophically and that we must take Bhaktivinodes advice and realize it rather than bat it about between those with opposing opinions. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Very honest and intelligent point, you have the weight of Srila Prabhupada's teachings to back you up Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Ashvatama Mathematically then if there is no past, present or future as we are acquainted with it, can we take for granted we are likely already in Goloka, is that your aphorism? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> With all due respects I will not go into this however, it is a sincere question answered clearly by thiest, I'm with him on this now. When I am genuinly Krishna Conscious, then I will understand and not before that through philosophical debate. When we are 'sincerely and dedicated to our Spiritual Master', only then will he reward us, and our service to Krishna will be revealed Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Posted by theist In a land where everyone is the servant of everyone else in the service of Krsna. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Servant of the servant of the servant - the greatest devotees, nice posting theist

1- The residents of Goloka are as good as Krishna because of their Krishna consciousness but they are sill jiva-tattva although their are so many Vishnu tattva's playing different roles as well as the Caitanya Caritamrita reveals, it is explained there that so many expansions of Krishna Himself play out different roles for example only Sri vas (Naradha Muni) is jiva-tattva, the rest in the Pancha-Tattva are Vishnu-tattva and their are many many more also that are Vishnu tattva<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 2 - Yes you are right that the marginal living entities are part of the superior energy in ‘bodily nitya-siddha form’ however, because they are jiva-tattva they serve as individual devotees and are not on the same level as Krishna who is the embodiment of the internal potency. Our disagreement on this issue is with the use of words only.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> 3 -The nitya-baddha’s jivs are also part of the marginal energy (a characteristic of the superior energy (life force) yet become covered and slave to the inferior energy or material creation<o:p></o:p>

1 -Internal or Superior energy is Krishna and the Vishnu-tattva's in Goloka and Vaikuntha 2 -Marginal is the jiva-tattva's 3 -External or inferior energy is the material creation or the mahat-tattva What do you mean by internal devotees? Are they marginal (jiva-tattva's)?

Thank God your a Prabhupada man Guruvani, actually I read every one of your posts and all of us have to read Prabhupadas books more and more and eventually, if we stand our ground with all the tests maya will throw at us, we will attain the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada and Krishna.

Just go back and read the 20 or so other threads on this subject. I will keep answering this thread but I suggest the moderators put an end, not to the thread. but any tit-for-tat chewing the chewed "Just as the embodied spirit soul loses external consciousness when his senses are overcome by the illusion of dreaming or the deathlike state of deep sleep, so a person experiencing material duality must encounter illusion and death". "The living entity's desiring is like dreaming of a golden mountain. A person knows what a mountain is, and he knows also what gold is. Out of his desire only, he dreams of a golden mountain, and when the dream is over he sees something else in his presence. He finds in his awakened state that there is neither gold nor a mountain, and what to speak of a golden mountain." - Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto Two, "The Cosmic Manifestation". The living entity is only dreaming as their nitya-baddha consciousness in the material creation and even the impersonal Brahmajyoti, while their genuine nitya-siddha bodily identity is firmly established eternally within the pastimes of Lord Krishna in Goloka

Read Srila Prabhupadas books properally and stop just looing for what you want to believe in. Also if you really want to understand Srila Prabhupadas books, avoid the Gaudiya math Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.11.8 “One who is enlightened in self-realization, although living within the material body, sees himself as transcendental to the body, just as one who has arisen from a dream gives up identification with the dream body. A foolish person, however, although not identical with his material body but transcendental to it, thinks himself to be situated in the body, just as one who is dreaming sees himself as situated in an imaginary body”. Purport by Srila Prabhupada In a dream one sees oneself in an imaginary body, but upon waking one gives up all identification with that body. Similarly, one who has awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness no longer identifies with the gross or subtle material bodies, nor does he become affected by the happiness and distress of material life. On the other hand, a foolish person (kumati) does not awaken from the dream of material existence and is afflicted with innumerable problems due to false identification with the gross and subtle material bodies. One should become situated in one's eternal spiritual identity (nitya-svarūpa). By properly identifying oneself as the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, one becomes relieved of his false material identity, and therefore the miseries of illusory existence immediately cease, just as the anxiety of a troublesome dream ceases as soon as one awakens to his normal, pleasant surroundings. It should be understood, however, that the analogy of awakening from a dream can never be applied to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is never in illusion. The Lord is eternally awake and enlightened in His own unique category called viṣṇu-tattva. Such knowledge is easily understood by one who is vidvān, or enlightened in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

jiva-jati -- species of living entities is refering to the nitya-baddha conscious aspect OR LOWER CONDITIONED SELF of the living entity who is/was trapped in the material world or the impersonal Brahmajyoti. sukshma-jivA -- the undeveloped living also refers to the secondary conscious condition (nitya-baddha) that has been trapped for so long in the material world they have no memory of who they really are.

Maya is always testing us to see if it’s Krishna we really want to serve or if there is some hidden motive. The material 'itch' we have been attached to deep in our heart will be tested the closer we get to Krishna. This is why as soon as we are puffed up and think we are advanced, immediately we are tested by sex in all it's varieties, opulence and adoration or Krishna may even take everything off us – This happens to see if we turn to Krishna or run back to mummy and take shelter of family, friends and the T.V. set

Interesting post suchandra prabhu, the paintings are fantastic Different States of reality exist within the material universe Modern materialistic science is has no idea how to explain psychic phenomena. This information can be found in Vedic scriptures. Srimad Bhagavatam 6.16.53-54, 7.7.25 or 7.15.61 describes three material states of consciousness: 1. jagrata, awakened state (beta, 14-40 Hz, alpha, 7-14 Hz) 2. svapna, dreaming state (theta, 4-7 Hz) 3. susupti, deep sleep (delta, 0.5-4 Hz) Beyond them is the fourth state (turya) which is non-material (SB 6.5.12, 7.9.32, 7,15.54). On this level the Supreme Lord can be perceived. Gaudiya Vaisnavas describe another, fifth state (turyatitah), dimension of love between the jiva and Krsna. What follows are paraphrases of Vedanta-sutra (by Suhotra Prabhu) and corresponding Srimad Bhagavatam verses: Dreams are created by the Supersoul to award the living entity with the results of insignificant karma. (Vs 3.2.1) SB 6.16.55 The Supersoul causes objects of desire to appear in dreams as they do in other situations (e.g. the waking state). (Vs 3.2.2) SB 11.13.32 Dreams are features of the Supreme Lord's maya. (Vs 3.2.3) SB 11.13.33 Some dreams are omens; sastra and experts so declare. (Vs 3.2.4) SB 10.42.26-27 Question When one awakes from dreaming, he knows that his dreams were unreal. Therefore no value should be imparted to dreams. Answer: The manifestation and the withdrawal of the dream world within the consciousness of the living entity is effected by the Lord. In the same way, bondage and liberation proceed from him also. (Vs 3.2.5) SB 3.7.10-12 The state in which consciousness is focused on the physical body (the waking state) is created by the Supreme Lord. (Vs 3.2.6) SB 6.16.53-54 Different statements in the Upanisads indicate that deep sleep is the result of the soul entering 1) the nadis (subtle channels that pervade the body from the center of the heart), 2) the pericardium, or 3) the Supersoul. The resolution is that the soul sleeps within the bed of the Supersoul, after having entered the palace (the pericardium) through the door of the nadis. (Vs 3.2.7) SB 11.3.35, 1.10.21

He did not mean that, what he wants to know is what his Godbrothers were doing when Prabhupada was preaching around the world, why didn't they also travel and preach instead of sitting around their <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>Temples</st1:place></st1:City> in <st1:country-region><st1:place>India</st1:place></st1:country-region>. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The fact is most did not expect Prabhupada to succeed, they actually gave him a hard time in the beginning, not only did they not help him, they critized him but where too lazy to get off their backsides and travel abroad Only Srila Prabhupada had real preaching mood of his Spiritual Master. They thought at first he had made some hippie devotess and were embarrassed by his 'western devotees' chanting 'their' Hare Krishna.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Even Narayana Maharaj was given the invite to come as early as 1968 but the fact is was not spiritually advanced enough to even understand what Srila Prabhupada was doing. He never ever had any belief back then that Srila Prabhupada would be successful. As the years past he did eventually have some understanding simply due to the enormous success ISKCON was having. Only then did he see what Srila Prabhupada new all along. By then Srila Prabhupada never again asked them for help and avoided them.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In 1976 I had a huge argument with a 'Gaudiya math sanyasi' who tried to minimize the preaching of Srila Prabhupada. This old Indian Sadu and Guru was boldly told by a young white Westerner in, a humble, yet committed way, that only Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has proven to be the real Jagat Guru of the world, the only real preacher following the mood of Lord Caitanya in this day and age, and that credit belongs to him and only him and you sir should read his books and learn how to preach the mission of Lord Caitanya instead of sitting around in you Temple trying to take credit for something you had absolutely nothing to do with and in fact in the beginning only criticized. You had to be there to realize how envious these Gaudiya math men were.

Pass this on to your 'friends' at the Gaudiya math. In actual fact NO-ONE FALLS DOWN, but not in the way Kundali/Satyanarayan explain in their nonsense book. Why? Because we are now only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking’ that we are not there in Goloka or Vaikuntha when in actual fact our svarupa body is ALWAYS there regardless. This understanding is for the benefit of those who are not polluted by such drival as "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall". Srila Prabhupada explains clearly to us that our original position is ALWAYS in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen OR NOT THERE. In fact we are not fallen, we only 'IMAGINE, BELIEVE or have convienced ourselves that we are fallen due to our mistaken selfish desires. There present day 'non-eventful' Gaudiya math and their followers argument is with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

"Regarding the Gaudiya Math, our position has nothing to do with them. They cannot do anything and if somebody does something, they will be envious. That is the nature of third class men." Srila Prabhupada's Letter to Yamuna 11/18/70 The only real threat CAN ONLY COME FROM WITHIN And that is if ISKCON leaders today start compromising, listening too and foolishly associating with the Gaudiya math.

I new Tripurani Maharaj back in the mid seventies, in fact I used to go on book distibution with him in 1974, so many books he distributed yet turned his back on Prabhupada's ISKCON. The GENIUN truly dedicated devotees will never turn their back on ISKCON and the teachings and PREACHING mission of Srila Prahupada, regardless of the difficulties or of the over zealous charismatic dictatorial devotees of the past like bhavananda, Bhagavan, Hansudutta, Ramesvara etc. ISKCON will always remain. They were wrong in the way they goverened, we all know that, they and devotees like them come and go because no lie can live forever, but Srila Prabhupadas ISKCON has continued on and expanded. The only real threat CAN ONLY COME FROM WITHIN And that is if ISKCON leaders today start compromising, listening too and foolishly associating with the Gaudiya math. When things became too difficult for Tripurani Maharaj, he ran off like a scared jack rabbit to the Gaudiya math which means he never really new Srila Prabhupada at all. Those who know Srila Prabhupada will never leave his ISKCON in their own hearts NO, THIS IS THE CORRECT STATEMEANT - To put things in proper perspective, it's is very clear Srila Prabhupada instructed his genuine disciples to avoid the Gaudiya math completely. ISKCON has nothing to do with the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math that has been mundane since Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur departure from this world in 1936, Srila Prabhupada never liked staying with any of his Godbrothers because they where not serious nor understood the preaching aspect of Spiritual life. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p>

Nonsense! It is Sridhara/ Narayana/ Tripurari/ Gaura govinda/ BV and BP Puri/ B. B. Visnu / Narasingha Maharajas etc who foolishly teach with their nonsense philosophy that we all originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. Also many of the ‘we all originated from a plane sheet of consciousness gibberish” do not even know what the word vardi means. We are certainly not fall- vardis or dream-vardis <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: - Vadi means those who are aspiring to merge into the impersonal Brahman effulgence. <o:p></o:p> To put things in proper perspective, it's is very clear Srila Prabhupada instructed his genuine disciples to avoid the Gaudiya math completely. ISKCON has nothing to do with the present mundane version of the Gaudiya math that has been mundane since Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Thakur departure from this world in 1936, Srila Prabhupada never liked staying with any of his Godbrothers because they where not serious nor understood the preaching aspect of Spiritual life. <o:p></o:p> I would like to correctly point out to the authors who wrote the nonsense and absurd book "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall" that we ARE eternally situated in Goloka. <o:p></o:p> In actual fact <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place><st1:PlaceName>NO-ONE</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>FALLS</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> DOWN, but not in the way Kundali/Satyanarayan explain in their nonsense book. <o:p></o:p> Why? Because we are now only ‘dreaming’ or ‘thinking’ that we are not there in Goloka or Vaikuntha when in actual fact our svarupa body is ALWAYS there regardless. This understanding is for the benefit of those who are not polluted by such drival as "In Vaikuntha Not Even The Leaves Fall". Srila Prabhupada explains clearly to us that our original position is ALWAYS in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen OR NOT THERE. In fact we are not fallen, we only 'IMAGINE, BELIEVE or have convienced ourselves that we are fallen due to our mistaken selfish desires. <o:p></o:p> There argument is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Month="7" Day="30" Year="1971">July 30, 1971</st1:date> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s servant.- Eternal servant. That’s all. Lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Month="12" Day="27" Year="1972">December 27, 1972</st1:date> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only” <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) <o:p></o:p> This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky. <o:p></o:p> In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explain very clearly to his disciples and grand disciples to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka. <o:p></o:p> There is no region, place or plane called tatastha, the jiva souls ARE the jiva-tatastha's. Also they are NOT inbetween the material and Vaikuntha realm but rather choose between SERVING the <st1:place>Superior</st1:place> energy (<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His expansions) or being COVERED by and a slave to the inferior energy (maha-tattva) <o:p></o:p> In other words, one can stay in Vaikuntha as their 'svarupa' body or 'dream' of an imaginary self COVERED by the material energies ethereal and biological vessels within the mahat-tattva. All glorious to Srila Prabhupada <o:p></o:p> Hare Krishna. <o:p></o:p> <o:p>http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:WIvVOAhL-vsJ:iskcon.krishna.org/Articles/2001/06/00320.html+avoid+gaudiya+math&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au</o:p>

I think the final say in all of this is humbly explained as follows- “In absolute reality there is no such thing as three features of time. The problem with this discussion is that we are trying to filter God through the limits of three aspects of time. If there was no past and if there is no future, then the question ceases to exist.In the Bhagavatam's description of creation, the time factor only influences material existence from the point of the Mahat-tattva (i.e. after the agitation of the pradhana). Vishnu, who exists beyond material influence has no limiting connection to this three fold illusory time. And since time only manifests at the point of material creation, when we return there we would never have been gone”. Jahnava Nitai Das Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur explains in this way, “Actually it should be understood that Drona and Dhara, who were sadhana-siddhas, entered into the nitya-siddha forms of Nanda and Yasoda at that time.” Therefore not only do we all have our nitya-siddha bodily form in Goloka, but our 'rasa' can change however we can only understand that when we are Krishna Conscious. With that comment I sign out and if anyone needs to know how Prabhupada explains the truth of how we are all originally nitya siddha and came down from Goloka, then visit http://religion.krishna.org/Articles/2000/08/00083.html or http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4275 Hare Krishna I'm going to go out to distibute some BTG's, I think thats what Prabhupada would rather I do. Hare Krishna

<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Spiritual life is full of apparent contradictions. Please HUMBLY inform EVERYONE that there is absolutely no difference between Srila Prabhupada's books, class lectures and morning walks. HE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THIS FACT <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Also, in all due respects, he is wrong by saying - "Srila Swami Maharaja has never written in his books that the jiva has come from Goloka" <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada told us - “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are NOT fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “We came down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago” letter to Madhuvisa Swami 1972 <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada "The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban) <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada: “Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

Many have misunderstood the meaning of tatastha and how the jiva soul originally 'came' down from Goloka. Nararanya Maharaj is right - no-one falls down from Goloka we NEVER falldown from Vaikuntha as our genuine identity or svarupa body however, we can 'think' or 'dream' we are fallen as Srila Prabhupada has explained to us. Srila Prabhupada: - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently". Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia Srila Prabhupada: - "This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972 Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 Many also quotes Srila Prabhupada saying - "This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.' SB 5.11.12 Purport However Srila Prabhupada explains this verse in this way = Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968 Srila Prabhupada – "In further reference to your question about the form of the spirit soul of the conditioned living entity, there is a spiritual form always, but it developes fully only when the living entity goes back to Vaikuntha. This form develops according to the desire of the living entity. Until this perfectional stage is reached, the form is lying dormant like the form of a tree is lying dormant in the seed." (Srila Prabhupada's letter to Rupanaga in 1969) Many 'literally' believe, just as they foolishly believe we are actual atoms or sparks in some living effulgence, that our siddha ’svarupa’ is currently in seed form only”. Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally. The correct understanding of 'seed form' realy means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within the eternal imperishable realm Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become ‘Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it’ Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) Srila Prabhupada “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 We (the jiva-tatasthas) have never manifested because we have always existed, we (the marginal living entities) are not a region, PLANE or place in creation. The marginal plane IS the individual independent living beings, the marginal energy, jiva-soul or tatastha-s’akti therefore is NOT a position or area in creation as Akruranatha prabhu also correctly explained to us. The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serving the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires. Someone humbly present this to Narayana Maharaj - "Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires, or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place or plane in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation as a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti, or some 'plain sheet' of uniform consciousness, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand by all of us. Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels) How have we fallen to the material world? We have all attained our present condition of existence in the material creation due to firstly choosing between the Lord’s two energies. We all have our genuine place or full Krishna Conscious potential in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is everlastingly there, yet also always have the choice to remain aware of our perpetual svarupa body and genuine identity in Vaikuntha that is constantly serving Krishna. We therefore can use our God given ‘marginal’ free will to foolishly enter the perishable universe of imagination and fleeting dreams as our mistaken desires and thoughts to achieve absolute power over all I purvey. However, in our forgetful state we forget that all our desires, dreams and thoughts are given the facility to exist only by the mercy of Maha-Vishnu who is the great facilitator of His maha-tattva creation. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy or plane because they ARE the marginal energy and are therefore ETERNALLY called jiva-tatastha. The marginal living beings (jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti) are autonomous expansion of Lord Krishna that has no beginning, no origin, or ending. They can choose to remain Krishna Conscious in their full devotional potential or transcendental body under the loving supervision of the superior energy (Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in Vaikuntha), or be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) In both cases the Supreme Lord is the origin and maintainer of the living entities, whether in their perpetual natural ‘svarupa’ Krishna conscious devotional service in Goloka or Vaikuntha, or if they have chosen to miss use their free will to abandon who they really are by entering the transitory illusionary dreams of greatness and chasing such desires within Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming temporary creation (mahat tattva). " If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96) “The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time”. Bhaktivinoda Thakura. The statement above clearly explains how the imperishable higher feature of the jiva-tatastha is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ which is ones perpetual constitutional position that is eternal present in Vaikuntha. The permanent characteristic of the jiva tatastha is ones eternal svarupa body which is the perpetual constitutional original position of all marginal living beings. Consequently the secondary conscious characteristic of the jiva tatastha that becomes covered by the inferior energy or mahat-tattva, is nothing other than a dreaming condition that temporarily exists while the one unconscious of their full constitutional bodily foundation in Goloka. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entities (jiva-souls) have always existed without beginning or end. Srila Prabhupada explains this - “For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?”Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.20 - 21 “The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same”. Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.23 - 24 In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka. Tatastha s’akti refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being (you and I) and IS ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality and desires that communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please Krishna in a selfless manner, that remains that way for all eternity. This loving exchange or reciprocation with Krishna and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotion service and gratitude to Krishna, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of expression and free will, then how can there be love? We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable superior energy (Lord Krishna), where our authentic everlasting genuine bodily self is always serving Krishna, or we can ignore Krishna and who we really are altogether, and take shelter (not as a perpetual svarupa body) within the perishable inferior energy (mahat-tattva material creation) of Maha Vishnu.

Somaka Swami has also stated in the past that there are abundant quotes in Prabhupada's books stating that Vaikuntha is a place from where there is no fall down <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p> </o:p> We should not be confused here because Somaka Swami is right, we NEVER falldown from Vaikuntha as our genuine identity or svarupa body however, we can 'think' or 'dream' we are fallen as Srila Prabhupada has explained to us. <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada: - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently". Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia Srila Prabhupada: - "This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972 Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 Somaka Swami also quotes Srila Prabhupada saying - "This ordinary living being is of two kinds -- nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings, are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.' SB 5.11.12 PURPORT <o:p></o:p> However Srila Prabhupada explains this verse in this way = <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated <st1:date Month="11" Day="14" Year="1968">November 14, 1968</st1:date>,

Each JIVA-SOUL is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair IN OUR dimension of awareness within the maha-tattva and impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> in 1972 Srila Prabhupada<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In the Śrī Caitanya Caritamrta the nitya-baddha condition of the marginal living entity is clearly described in the following quotes - "<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "My dear Rūpa, please listen to Me. It is not possible to describe devotional service completely; therefore I am just trying to give you a synopsis of the symptoms of devotional service" Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.137<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Then Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu then went on to explain the jiva’s fall down and being covered within the mahat-tattva (material creation) only.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> 'Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ‘the ocean of the transcendental mellows of devotional service is so big that no one can estimate its length and breadth. However, just to help you taste it, I am describing but one drop. In this universe there are limitless living entities in 8,400,000 species, and all are wandering within this universe. The length and breadth of the living entity is described as <st1:time Hour="13" Minute="10">one ten</st1:time>-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kaṇa, particles of spirit, not matter. If we divide the tip of a hair into one hundred parts and then take one part and divide this into another one hundred parts, that ten-thousandth part is the dimension of the living entity. This is the verdict of the chief Vedic mantras. [Lord Kṛṣṇa says:] 'Among minute particles, I am the living entity. "Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.138- 142<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In this way Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is describing our secondary 'dreaming' nitya-baddha consciousness that has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature of ones marginal identity, and not the position or bodily foundation of the jiva soul which is their perpetual svarupa bodily identity in Vaikuntha, therefore each individual living entity that chooses to project their conditional non-Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha conscious characteristic of their marginal identity to the mahat-tattva 'dreaming' creation of Maha-Vishnu, IS 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada then 'cleary' explains this phenomenon - "We have come from God. Just like one man is put in the prison house. He has come from his free home. By his work he is criminal; therefore he is put into the prison house. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Our real home is Vaikuntha”,. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.12.2 <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Month="4" Day="13" Year="1976">April 13, 1976</st1:date><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu “The length and breadth of the living entity is described as <st1:time Hour="13" Minute="10">one ten</st1:time>-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA) <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander.<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light particals within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness (nitya-baddha secondary consciousness) has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His eternal pastimes. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space. <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below -<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Srila Prabhupada's Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – <st1:State><st1:place>Hawaii</st1:place></st1:State>, <st1:date Month="1" Day="28" Year="1974">January 28, 1974</st1:date> <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada “The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada “These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> “Srila Prabhupada "The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48<o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> in 1972 <o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada "We have come from God. Just like one man is put in the prison house. He has come from his free home. By his work he is criminal; therefore he is put into the prison house. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Our real home is Vaikuntha”,. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.12.2 <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Month="4" Day="13" Year="1976">April 13, 1976</st1:date><o:p></o:p> <o:p> </o:p> Srila Prabhupada “But we have come here. How we have come, that is a very mysterious thing; but we are part and parcel. Why you are jumping with a jet plane to go to the moon planet? If you prepare yourself… There are methods; otherwise, why <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> says, yānti deva-vrata? “If you want to go to the higher planetary system, you prepare yourself in this life. You’ll be next life…” Tyaktva deham: “You shall go there. Or if you want to remain, go to the planets of Pitrloka, you can go there. And if you prepare yourself to come to Me, back to home, back to God, you can do that.” So what should be our aim of life? We shall go to the higher planetary system or back to home, back to Godhead? “Back,” we say, because we have come from God. Just like one man is put in the prison house. He has come from his free home. By his work he is criminal; therefore he is put into the prison house. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God. Our real home is Vaikuntha. But we have come here. How we have come, that is a very mysterious thing; but we are part and parcel. Somehow or other… Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung, anadi karama phale, padi ’bhavarṇava-jale. Somehow or other we have fallen this. Therefore the real aim of life, how to get out of this bhavarṇava, nescience, that is the aim of life. If we remain again like the monkeys and cats and dogs, eating, sleeping, mating, and dancing, that is not very responsible life. Every man should be responsible." Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.12.2 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda<o:p></o:p> <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Month="4" Day="13" Year="1976">April 13, 1976</st1:date><o:p> </o:p>

You and Guruvani plus the’ so called’ swamis and guru’s who support such nonsense do not understand that ‘seed form’ means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become Krishna consciously 'realized' enough to realize who we genuinly are for all eternity as our imperisgable svarupa or nitya-siddha body. The real offensive Mayavadis are those who cannot understand the simple teachings of Srila Prabhupada who has said on many occasions we are eternally in Goloka and only think or dream we are not there. <?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<o:p></o:p> <font face=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> "Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> Hansadutta - "It’s not a matter of aspiring to some – <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – "No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with <st1:place>Krishna"</st1:place>. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada –"When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay) <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated <st1:date Year="1967" Day="27" Month="8">August 27, 1967</st1:date> <o:p></o:p> This 'clearly means' our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. <o:p></o:p> The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972 When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream. <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>, <st1:date Year="1972" Day="27" Month="12">December 27, 1972</st1:date> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada - "Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> <st1:country-region><st1:place>Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 <o:p></o:p> In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka.