Sarva gattah

In simple English we are marginal that can choose to serve Krishna's super energy or be covered by his inferior energy “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis, Swami’s Guru’s and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti. The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays. The rays of the sun are compared to the living impersonal Brahmajyoti which is the ‘collective’ individual jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) that are like particles of light that makes up the sunshine and consequently appear in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (Krishna and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu) ‘This in between state is called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman. It is in this way that this Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not and can never represent the full potential or Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of tatastha s’akti (the marginal living entity) because ones genuine self is eternally established in the endless ‘presents’ of Goloka and Vaikuntha that is beyond the influence of mundane time and space. The jiva-tatasthas souls that have projected themselves into the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are for that reason in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness unaware of their perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it is only the lower non <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious condition of the jiva tatastha that has merged into a individual collective called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence and imagination for the jiva tatastha. "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Narasingha Maharaja obviously does not understand what the marginal living entity or jiva tatastha actually is and where we (the marginal living entities) perpetually reside. I have met him on a few occasions and like many of us, the correct understanding of jiva tatastha is still a mystery and not understood. The fact is that many Swami’s and Guru’s and devotees find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their svarupa body is always their as their original rasa bodily form, regardless if they are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti. To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin. Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth. “The fact is the individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently. Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy. "If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal". (See CC Adi 2.96) “Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis, Swami’s Guru’s and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti. The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because Krishna, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays. The rays of the sun are compared to the living impersonal Brahmajyoti which is the ‘collective’ individual jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) that are like particles of light that makes up the sunshine and consequently appear in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (Krishna and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu) ‘This in between state is called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman. It is in this way that this Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not and can never represent the full potential or Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of tatastha s’akti (the marginal living entity) because ones genuine self is eternally established in the endless ‘presents’ of Goloka and Vaikuntha that is beyond the influence of mundane time and space. The jiva-tatasthas souls that have projected themselves into the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are for that reason in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness unaware of their perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it is only the lower non Krishna conscious condition of the jiva tatastha that has merged into a individual collective called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence and imagination for the jiva tatastha. "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Guruvani's understanding of the marginal living entity is incorrect. He says - "So, it appears from these two references that marginal energy is when spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance and becomes a mixture of internal and external energy. This condition does not apply to the liberated devotees of Vaikuntha/Goloka, so it seems that we cannot really apply the “marginal” designation to them". The accurate meaning of tatastha s’akti should be correctly understood. This is explained very nicely by Urdhvaga das "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp. "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp. "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp. In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently. So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul. It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities. If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96) If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy. Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy. Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969. "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease. Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health." A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Comment -In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti. The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays. The impersonal Brahmajyoti or the ‘collective’ jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) consequently can appear also in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu) It is in this way that the Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not represent the full potential OR Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of the marginal living entity that eternally is present in Goloka. The jiva-tatasthas souls situated in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are therefore in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness that, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence.

The accurate meaning of tatastha s’akti should be correctly understood. This is explained very nicely by Urdhvaga das "The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp. "Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. "The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp. "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp. In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently. So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul. It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities. If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96) <FONT face="Times New Roman">If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comMarginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy. Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969. "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease. Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health." A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Comment -In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti. The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays. The impersonal Brahmajyoti or the ‘collective’ jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) consequently can appear also in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (<st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu) It is in this way that the Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not represent the full potential OR Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of the marginal living entity that eternally is present in Goloka. The jiva-tatasthas souls situated in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are therefore in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness that, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence.

This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b. Look at all the paintings of Maha-Vishnu and we see He is lying down sleeping and dreaming and that dream is the mahat-tattva. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, are always together in a similar way that the sun and the sunrays are together. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda or inconceivable one-ness and difference, in relation to the individual marginal living entity and Krishna Achintya means ‘inconceivable’, bheda translates to ‘difference’, and abheda translates to ‘one-ness’. This also means the marginal living entity can be similtaniously in Goloka and the material creation due to the time (mahat-tattva) and no-time (Goloka) phenomenon. This is really not that difficult to understand The full expression and perpetual originality of jiva tatastha is not impersonal in its original perpetual position. This MEANS jiva-tatastha is eternally represented by their endless nitya-siddha body in Goloka AND not as some impersonal inactive state in-between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva that has confused the meaning of the word tatastha. Only in this way does the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, from’ time’ to ‘time’, misuse their free will and choose to forget Krishna and the continual nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, and set in motion their lower nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva and ‘rents’ temporary bodily vessels (dreams that are real but temporary) off Maha-Vishnu that always belong to Maha-Vishnu’s ‘thoughts’, making Him always the doer and not the nitya-baddha consciousness When the Gita says we are not the doer of activities it means that all activities in the material creation are actually the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. He is dreaming all ethereal, biological vessels and their innate surrounding (which is ALL collectively the mahat-tattva except for the visiting nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha, jiva-s’akti etc as Prabhupada explains - “The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature”. Chapter 3. Karma-yoga text 27 “The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Ch 3 txt 27 purport. Also jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity ‘individual influence’ in-between the superior energy (Krishna), and the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) that obviously includes all the ethereal and biological vessels the jiva-tatastha possesses when they choose to miss use their free will and enter the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha body that is ever present in Goloka

My young nephew was Surfing the web and came across http://www.govinddevji.net/ that really attracted him, Its preaching like that that starts making devotees, now he is reading a chapter of Krsna book.. He had a project for school on Jaipur and used this site. Hare Krishna. I just like to add, we all must take a stronger stand that our constitutional position is eternally nitya-siddha without any origin. It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA) Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander. Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness. In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes. They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space. We are always nitya siddha and due to being marginal, we sometimes misuse our free will to choose and forget this fact, we lose track of our original position. From another viewpoint - ‘We are always marginal whether we are as our eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka or as our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness in the material creation. MARGINAL MEANS - The living entities are situated between the material and spiritual potencies yet due to eternal time, which means a creation that is indestructible and imperishable, the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, already has a perpetual bodily (svarupa) relationship with Krishna. The living entity can use their free will (that is a characteristic of being marginal) and decide at any moment to abandon their service to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com]<font face=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the body they really are persistently and enter the material creation or mahat-tattva as a secondary 'dreaming consciousness projection, which then automatically becomes under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu. Therefore every object the living entity encounters within the maha-tattva, like ethereal (subtle secular) and biological (secular) containers and there surroundings, are the inferior energy of the Lord Krishna, facilitated by His Maha Sankarsana expansion Balarama who is the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and creator of the mahat-tattva <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they can be surrounded by the <st1:place>Superior</st1:place> energy or be covered by the inferior energy. <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The inferior energy has no life and is only moved by life, moved by the marginal entities nitya-baddha consciousness and simultaneously Maha-Vishnu as the supersoul that accompanies every jiva-bhutah.(nitya-baddha) <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>In this way both the nitya siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness are expression of the jiva-tatastha (marginal living entity) <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The nitya-baddha consciousness is also fully dependant on Maha-Vishnu like the marginal living entities nitya siddha body is fully dependant in Goloka, HOWEVER NO SOULS ORIGINATE FROM MAHA-VISHNU. <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Only the ethereal and biological vessels (material bodies) are provided by Maha-Vishnu via His representatives like Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and the 33,000,000 demigods so that the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can obtain vessels in Maha-Vishnu's creation according to their Karma.

"This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination". (Bhag.11.2.38) "just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. "Oh, Krishna is my eternal master. I am His servant." That's all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 Comment - It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA) Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander. Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks light within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness. In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes. They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space.

"This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination".(Bhag.11.2.38) "just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all," immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. "Oh, Krishna is my eternal master. I am His servant." That's all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. TOKYO 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1 Comment - It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna cause their ‘appearance’ of bodiless consciousness to be a spark, atom, molecule or rays in the sunshine which is the impersonal aspect of Brahman or Brahmajyoti. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness similarly, we find that the rebellious bodiless consciousness or lower self of the marginal living entities, can 'appear' to be an atomic ray or particle of non-differentiated character because of the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body.

At least I know I'm right however - These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas--explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control." Cc. Madhya, 25.42 ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. He also explains that the living entities entrance in the mahat-tattva is also a dream state. “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b. Look at all the paintings of Maha-Vishnu and we see He is lying down sleeping and dreaming and that dream is the mahat-tattva. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda or inconceivable one-ness and difference, in relation to the individual marginal living entity and Krishna Achintya means ‘inconceivable’, bheda translates to ‘difference’, and abheda translates to ‘one-ness’. It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan” as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa or atma (self) vigraha (bodily form) devotional body. The living entity did not originate from THE IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI although ones nitya-baddha consciousness may have visited there on many occassions

Please realise Brahman is held together by Form "The word varnam refers to the luster of one's original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna. "This imaginary experience of a world separate from It is therefore, as all devotees know, impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independently separate effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- <st1:city><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:city> in 1972 Srila Prabhupada "This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination".(Bhag.11.2.38) Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness, is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander. Such ‘consciousness’ is a living spark of consciousness, atom, molecule as part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky and is 10,000<SUP>th</SUP> the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness. <?xml:namespace prefix = o /> In this condition outside the active personal Vaikunthas, the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His eternal pastimes as well as their own endless svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness similarly, we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness or lower self of the marginal living entities, now 'appear' and described by the Vedas as atomic ray or particle of non-differentiated character. This is clearly because of the marginal living entities forgetfulness of their eternal svarupa body and their perpetual master <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. Hey Guruvani me good innocent man (mate) even if I am a 'scoundral', I'm only having a bad 'dream' My genuin bodily form, LIKE YOURS, is in Vaikuntha and when WE choose to AGAIN become Krishna Conscious, then WE can know who WE really ARE in Krishna's pastimes and always have BEEN and always will BE.

It must be pointed out clearly that the living entity is always marginal because of the ability to stay in Goloka or go to the mahat-tattva. Marginal also means the ability to choose as Srila Prabhupada explains. Also jiva-tattva can never become Vishnu tattva, such an idea is impersonalism’. I also like to point out that marginal can be used in different ways. When Srila Prabhupada referred to marginal living entities in Goloka, he meant they had the ability to use their free will and choose serving Krishna, or do their own thing with in the material creation. Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Comment -If that choice and free will to choose did not exist in Goloka or Vaikuntha, then we would be no better than assimilated androids. Free will is there is the constitutional make up of all marginal living entities in Goloka so they can use their own individuality, identity and personality to express a personal service to Krishna, or, if they choose, they can mise use it and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva and forget Krishna and the svarupa body they serve Krishna as. Prabhupada: They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) emphases All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below - “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time." (Bhag. 1.14.36) “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comJanuary 28, 1974</st1:date> “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad Part Two ttp://introduction.krishna.org/Articles/2005/01/034.html "The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11 "These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas--explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control." Cc. Madhya, 25.42 "The word varnam refers to the luster of one's original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48 "So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- <st1:City><st1:place>Tokyo</st1:place></st1:City> in 1972 Srila Prabhupada “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. "This imaginary experience of a world separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38) Comment - It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His unlimited Purusha expansions as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna cause their ‘appearance’ of bodiless consciousness to be a spark, atom, molecule or rays in the sunshine which is the impersonal aspect of Brahman or Brahmajyoti. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness similarly, we find that the rebellious bodiless consciousness or lower self of the marginal living entities, can 'appear' to be an atomic ray or particle of non-differentiated character because of the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body.

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below - “The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time." (Bhag. 1.14.36) “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad Part Two ttp://introduction.krishna.org/Articles/2005/01/034.html "The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11 "These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas--explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control." Cc. Madhya, 25.42 "The word varnam refers to the luster of one's original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate " /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comJanuary 28, 1974</st1:date> [font=/><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srila Prabhupada's Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48 “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. "This imaginary experience of a world separate from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination" (Bhag.11.2.38) Comment - It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and His unlimited Purusha expansions as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna cause their ‘appearance’ of bodiless consciousness to be a spark, atom, molecule or rays in the sunshine which is the impersonal aspect of Brahman or Brahmajyoti. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness similarly, we find that the rebellious bodiless consciousness or lower self of the marginal living entities, can 'appear' to be an atomic ray or particle of non-differentiated character because of the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body.

Akruranatha says - “Srila Prabhupada has said over and over again that jivas remain “marginal” and “fragmental” even in the liberated condition.” Yes, that is correct and very easily understood, Jai Prabhupada! Japa Jim seems to not correctly understand this quote - “The living entity is called the marginal energy because by nature he is spiritual but by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy. Thus he has the power to live either in the material energy or in the spiritual energy, and for this reason he is called marginal energy. Being in the marginal position, he is sometimes attracted by the external, illusory energy, and this is the beginning of his material life.” Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.117 purport, Japa Jim says - "So, it is quite obvious that “marginal” means that the living entity is situated in the material energy due to forgetfulness of Krishna. Yes, that is also true however; you miss the point that the marginal living entities are also situated in Goloka and Vaikuntha in their perpetual <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com <font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious bodily condition or svarupa. <FONT size=3>‘By the grace of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:City><st1:place>Milton</st1:place></st1:City> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.’ Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport <FONT size=3>‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport) <FONT size=3>‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is. <FONT size=3>On the other hand, the following description of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) taken from various other sects, leaves a very strong impression of Impersonalism that makes many believe the jiva-tatastha or the marginal living entity is actually in the appearance of an impersonal sparks, atoms and molecules that has polluted the thinking of many studying the Vedas. <FONT size=3>This is a misleading concept - "The brahmajyoti, the non differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of non differentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms. Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication". <FONT size=3>Such comments are very, very misleading and only cause many to believe the marginal living entity (tatastha s’akti) originates from an impersonal source. This ‘impersonal’ description and origin of the jiva-tatastha is rejected by Srila Prabhupada

We all must take a stronger stand that our ORIGINAL constitutional position is eternally nitya-siddha without any origin. We are always nitya siddha and due to being marginal, we sometimes misuse our free will to choose and forget this fact, we lose track of our original position. From another viewpoint - ‘We are always marginal whether we are as our eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka or as our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness in the material creation. MARGINAL MEANS - The living entities are situated between the material and spiritual potencies yet due to eternal time, which means a creation that is indestructible and imperishable, the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, already has a perpetual bodily (svarupa) relationship with KRISHNA in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. The living entity can use their free will (that is a characteristic of being marginal) and decide at any moment to abandon their service to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the body they really are persistently and enter the material creation or mahat-tattva as a secondary 'dreaming consciousness projection. Ones non-Krishna Conscious desires and thought then automatically becomes under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu and provided with ethereal and biological bodies (material vessels). Therefore every object the living entity encounters within the maha-tattva, like ethereal (subtle secular) and biological (secular) containers and there surroundings, are the inferior energy of the Lord Krishna, facilitated by His Maha Sankarsana expansion Balarama who is the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and creator of the mahat-tattva <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they can be surrounded by the <st1:place>Superior</st1:place> energy or be covered by the inferior energy. <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The inferior energy has no life and is only moved by life, moved by the marginal entities nitya-baddha consciousness and simultaneously Maha-Vishnu as the supersoul that accompanies every jiva-bhutah.(nitya-baddha) <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>In this way both the nitya siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness are expression of the jiva-tatastha (marginal living entity) <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The nitya-baddha consciousness is also fully dependant on Maha-Vishnu like the marginal living entities nitya SIDDHA body is fully dependant in Goloka. All the ethereal and biological vessels (material bodies) are provided by Maha-Vishnu via His representatives like Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and the 33,000,000 demigods so that the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can obtain vessels in Maha-Vishnu's creation according to their Karma. <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Akruranatha - That is what Srila Prabhupada mean by marginal potency or “tatastha shakti”. It refers to the eternally minute, dependent, subordinate, fragmental characteristic of the jiva. This constitutional attribute of the jiva exists even when the jiva serves the Lord in a perfect spiritual body that is qualitatively just like the Lord’s body. He is always “marginal potency”. <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>I would like to add further and stress the fact - ‘And the full potential of the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha is their eternally nitya-siddha svarupa body that is eternally founded, protected and sheltered in Goloka beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva’s (material creations) temporary and decaying reality. <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?’ <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Year="1971" Day="30" Month="7">July 30, 1971</st1:date> - <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Srila Prabhupada establishes the fact that the original and eternal expression and bodily identity of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) is nitya-siddha. <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>“That is called svarupa-siddhi. You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. Room conversation, <st1:date Year="1977" Day="25" Month="4">April 25, 1977</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. Room conversation, <st1:date Year="1977" Day="25" Month="4">April 25, 1977</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>

We all must take a stronger stand that our constitutional position is eternally nitya-siddha without any origin. We are always nitya siddha and due to being marginal, we sometimes misuse our free will to choose and forget this fact, we lose track of our original position. From another viewpoint - ‘We are always marginal whether we are as our eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka or as our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness in the material creation. MARGINAL MEANS - The living entities are situated between the material and spiritual potencies yet due to eternal time, which means a creation that is indestructible and imperishable, the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, already has a perpetual bodily (svarupa) relationship with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comThe]Krishna</st1:place> and the body they really are persistently and enter the material creation or mahat-tattva as a secondary 'dreaming consciousness projection, which then automatically becomes under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu. Therefore every object the living entity encounters within the maha-tattva, like ethereal (subtle secular) and biological (secular) containers and there surroundings, are the inferior energy of the Lord Krishna, facilitated by His Maha Sankarsana expansion Balarama who is the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and creator of the mahat-tattva [font=]<font size=" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> that is without beginning or end. <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The living entity can use their free will (that is a characteristic of being marginal) and decide at any moment to abandon their service to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the body they really are persistently and enter the material creation or mahat-tattva as a secondary 'dreaming consciousness projection, which then automatically becomes under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu. Therefore every object the living entity encounters within the maha-tattva, like ethereal (subtle secular) and biological (secular) containers and there surroundings, are the inferior energy of the Lord Krishna, facilitated by His Maha Sankarsana expansion Balarama who is the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and creator of the mahat-tattva <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they can be surrounded by the <st1:place>Superior</st1:place> energy or be covered by the inferior energy. <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The inferior energy has no life and is only moved by life, moved by the marginal entities nitya-baddha consciousness and simultaneously Maha-Vishnu as the supersoul that accompanies every jiva-bhutah.(nitya-baddha) <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>In this way both the nitya siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness are expression of the jiva-tatastha (marginal living entity) <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>The nitya-baddha consciousness is also fully dependant on Maha-Vishnu like the marginal living entities nitya baddha body is fully dependant in Goloka. All the ethereal and biological vessels (material bodies) are provided by Maha-Vishnu via His representatives like Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and the 33,000,000 demigods so that the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can obtain vessels in Maha-Vishnu's creation according to their Karma. <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Akruranatha - That is what Srila Prabhupada mean by marginal potency or “tatastha shakti”. It refers to the eternally minute, dependent, subordinate, fragmental characteristic of the jiva. This constitutional attribute of the jiva exists even when the jiva serves the Lord in a perfect spiritual body that is qualitatively just like the Lord’s body. He is always “marginal potency”. <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>I would like to add further and stress the fact - ‘And the full potential of the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha is their eternally nitya-siddha svarupa body that is eternally founded, protected and sheltered in Goloka beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva’s (material creations) temporary and decaying reality. <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?’ <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City><st1:place>London</st1:place></st1:City>, on <st1:date Year="1971" Day="30" Month="7">July 30, 1971</st1:date> - <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Srila Prabhupada establishes the fact that the original and eternal expression and bodily identity of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) is nitya-siddha. <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>“That is called svarupa-siddhi. You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. Room conversation, <st1:date Year="1977" Day="25" Month="4">April 25, 1977</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City> <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3>Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. Room conversation, <st1:date Year="1977" Day="25" Month="4">April 25, 1977</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City> <FONT size=3>

The concept of ‘dreaming’ in the material sense has to be correctly understood as you have clearly explained. The word ‘material dream' simply means mistaken ‘desires’ and ‘thoughts’ that are impermanent and outside the kingdom of a perpetual reality that is imperishable and never decays. It is that 'eternal' place of Goloka and Vaikuntha that all the marginal living entities are perpetually founded in their eternally spiritual body or svarupa. Don’t identify the word ‘dream as explained by Prabhupada in relation to our existence in the material creation,’ with the dreaming of the biological body, for those dreams ARE illusion. On the other hand, the dreams, thoughts and desires of the marginal living entity, or jiva-tatastha, are very real but are temporary, that’s what Prabhupada means when using the words dream or dreaming. They are simply our non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that are excluded from Goloka and can only find expression within the yoga-nidra dreams of Maha-Vishnu. It is there such desires, thoughts or dreams are given ethereal and biological bodies (material bodies) that are the ornaments and decorations of the mahat-tattva. These vessels not only belong to the mahat-tattva, but ARE the mahat-tattva, that the jiva-tatastha possesses with their nitya-baddha secondary consciousness. In this way, just like darkness appears when the sun is no longer visible, the nitya-baddha consciousness appears when one miss uses their free will to choose to ignore <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and their nitya-siddha body they serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as, which is their full potential. Nitya-baddha body therefore is the secondary consciousness where one can experience their self centered mistaken dreams. The reason the word 'dream' is used is because Prabhupada explains that Maha-Vishnu in His yoga-nidra state, is in a trance or dream, and that dream is the mahat-tattva or material universe. Yoga nidra literally means ‘sleep’ ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. He also explains that the living entities entrance in the mahat-tattva is also a dream state. “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b. Look at all the paintings of Maha-Vishnu and we see He is lying down sleeping and dreaming and that dream is the mahat-tattva. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda or inconceivable one-ness and difference, in relation to the individual marginal living entity and Krishna Achintya means 'inconceivable', bheda translates to 'difference', and abheda translates to 'one-ness'. The full expression and perpetual originality of jiva tatastha is not impersonal as some sects believe. This MEANS jiva-tatastha is eternally represented by their endless nitya-siddha body in Goloka AND not as some impersonal inactive state in-between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva that has confused the meaning of the word tatastha. Only in this way does the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, from’ time' to 'time’, misuse their free will and choose to forget Krishna and the continual nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, and set in motion their lower nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva and 'rents’ temporary bodily vessels (dreams that are real but temporary) off Maha-Vishnu that always belong to Maha-Vishnu’s ‘thoughts’, making Him always the doer and not the nitya-baddha consciousness When the Gita says we are not the doer of activities it means that all activities in the material creation are actually the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. He is dreaming all ethereal, biological vessels and their innate surrounding (which is ALL collectively the mahat-tattva except for the visiting nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha, jiva-s’akti etc as Prabhupada explains - “The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature”. Chapter 3. Karma-yoga text 27 “The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Ch 3 txt 27 purport. Also jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity ‘individual influence’ in-between the superior energy (Krishna), and the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) that obviously includes all the ethereal and biological vessels the jiva-tatastha possesses when they choose to miss use their free will and enter the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha body that is ever present in Goloka

The following is a Room conversation, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:date Year="1977" Day="25" Month="4">April 25, 1977</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City> by Srila Prabhupada to establish that the original and eternal expression of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) is nitya-siddha. Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi. You have got original relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita . That is a... Just like you are son of some gentleman. That is a fact. It is not that the son becomes father or father becomes son. No. The son is son; the father is father. Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under--... That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi. So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal.-- Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, <st1:date Year="1974" Day="7" Month="12">December 7, 1974</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City> Raga-marga is not artificial. It becomes, svayam eva sphuratyadhah. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau... Everything, devotional relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, you cannot establish artificially. Everyone has got a particular relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si--... That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. So svarupa-siddhi is attained at a certain stage. Just like svarupa-siddhi... The desire for sex life is there in every human being, but when the boy and girl come to the mature stage, it becomes manifest. It is... is not learned artificially. Similarly, the raga-marga, svarupa-siddhi, becomes revealed or manifest. Shravandi suddha chitte karaye udaya. Udaya . This very word udaya is used. Just like sun. Sun becomes visible when the sun rises automatically. You cannot force the sun to rise at dead of night. That is not possible. Sun will rise. You just wait. When the time will be right, morning, <st1:time Hour="18" Minute="0">six o'clock</st1:time>, you'll find the sun. Similarly, the devotional service, we have to execute with patience, with enthusiasm.--Nectar of Devotion lecture, <st1:date Year="1972" Day="20" Month="10">20 October 1972</st1:date>, Vrindaban) PRABHUPADA: The change is taking place in this material world. There all tastes are fixed up, rasa, eternal, eternal rasa . Every one of us has a different taste of associating with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and that will be realised when one is liberated. HANSADUTTA: So that's fixed already. PRABHUPADA: Yes. When you are liberated, you will understand in which way you are related with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. That is called svarupa-siddhi. But that is attained when you are actually perfect in devotional service. Just like in our family we enjoy different rasas . We have got one kind of relationship with wife, one kind of relationship with sons and daughters, one kind of relationship with friends, one kind of relationship with servants, one kind of relationship with property. So similarly, <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>... The whole creation is His family, and He has got relationship in that way. So why the son will change his relationship into husband and wife? HANSADUTTA: I see. PRABHUPADA: Yes. Because every relationship is very palatable. The gentleman, the head of the family, his relationship with wife and his relationship with servant is as much palatable. There is no question of changing. Not that "I am tasting this rasa at the present moment. Then I will get better rasas." No. That is not... Everyone thinks, "My rasais the best." Although there is comparative gradation, but everyone thinks. These things are explained in Chaitanya-charitamrita . Why don't you see? HANSADUTTA: And Nectar of Devotion . PRABHUPADA: Yes. Everyone thinks, "My relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is the best." HANSADUTTA: So it's not a matter of aspiring to some-- PRABHUPADA: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Even the trees in Vrindaban, they want to serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ananda. Everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment.-- Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, <st1:date Year="1971" Day="10" Month="2">10 February 1971</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Gorakhpur</st1:place></st1:City> PRABHUPADA: Tirtha-guru, if he's able to take him to the temple, then tirtha-guru. Otherwise he's a goru, cow, tirtha cow, that's all. TAMAL <st1:place>KRISHNA</st1:place>: Say like that? PRABHUPADA: Yes [laughs], tell them that. He's unable to show Jagannatha. Then how he's guru? It is guru's responsibility to bring his to... That is upanayana. Upanayana, this sacred thread, means the guru brings him near God. TAMAL <st1:place>KRISHNA</st1:place>: Yeah. This man gives them some thread, makes them touch his feet, the whole thing, offer coconut-- PRABHUPADA: He's a foolish rascal. What can be done? TAMAL <st1:place>KRISHNA</st1:place>: Yeah. Jagannath, when he was telling us about this babaji, he said that there's also these babajis, they claim to be a guru for giving initiation into their svarupa . PRABHUPADA: Svarupa-siddhi. TAMAL <st1:place>KRISHNA</st1:place>: Yeah, svarupa-siddhi. So we can mention this as also rascaldom. PRABHUPADA: Yes. What can be done? Cheaters there are. If you want to be cheated, who can save you? He has made guru without asking hisguru. He submits to others. Then how we can save him? TAMAL <st1:place>KRISHNA</st1:place>: What does that do to his relationship with his own spiritual master? PRABHUPADA: Eh? TAMAL <st1:place>KRISHNA</st1:place>: How does this affect his relationship with his-- PRABHUPADA: They don't care for his [sic--their] own spiritual master. TAMAL <st1:place>KRISHNA</st1:place>: But what...? This means their relationship is spoiled? PRABHUPADA: Yes. Guror avajña, aparadha . TAMAL <st1:place>KRISHNA</st1:place>: Aparadha. PRABHUPADA: And Chaitanya Mahaprabhu has advised, "Save yourself from aparadha." Some aparadha, and they are going away, just like Nitai. Guror avajña.--Room conversation, <st1:date Year="1977" Day="25" Month="4">April 25, 1977</st1:date>, <st1:City><st1:place>Bombay</st1:place></st1:City>

Kesava Krsna dasa writes - "When Sri Maha-Vishnu goes into yoga-nidra, this act of sleeping His mystic slumber is real - for anything the Lord does is reality. Within this mystic dream, we the minute living entities are in fact participating in it. How we choose to misuse our God-given independence determines whether we stay or leave this realm. Is it real? If it emanates from the Lord, the answer is yes". The concept of ‘dreaming’ in the material sense has to be correctly understood as you have clearly explained. The word 'material dream' simply means mistaken ‘desires’ and ‘thoughts’ that are impermanent and outside the kingdom of a perpetual reality that is imperishable and never decays. It is that 'eternal' place of Goloka and Vaikuntha that all the marginal living entities are perpetually founded in their eternally spiritual body or svarupa. Don’t identify the word ‘dream as explained by Prabhupada in relation to our existence in the material creation,’ with the dreaming of the biological body, for those dreams ARE illusion. On the other hand, the dreams, thoughts and desires of the marginal living entity, or jiva-tatastha, are very real but are temporary, that’s what Prabhupada means when using the words dream or dreaming. They are simply our non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that are excluded from Goloka and can only find expression within the yoga-nidra dreams of Maha-Vishnu. It is there such desires, thoughts or dreams are given ethereal and biological bodies (material bodies) that are the ornaments and decorations of the mahat-tattva. These vessels not only belong to the mahat-tattva, but ARE the mahat-tattva, sometimes called mother nature, that the jiva-tatastha possess with their nitya-baddha secondary consciousness. In this way, just like darkness appears when the sun is no longer visible, the nitya-baddha consciousness appears when one miss uses their free will to choose to ignore <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and their nitya-siddha body they serve <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> as, which is their (jiva-tatastha) full potential. Nitya-baddha therefore is the secondary consciousness where one can experience their self centered mistaken dreams. The reason the word 'dream' is used is because Prabhupada explains that Maha-Vishnu in His yoga-nidra state, is in a trance or dream, and that dream is the mahat-tattva or material universe. Yoga nidra literally means ‘sleep’ ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. He also explains that the living entities entrance in the mahat-tattva is also a dream state. “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b. Look at all the paintings of Maha-Vishnu and we see He is lying down sleeping and dreaming and that dream is the mahat-tattva. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda or inconceivable one-ness and difference, in relation to the individual marginal living entity and Krishna Achintya means 'inconceivable', bheda translates to 'difference', and abheda translates to 'one-ness'. The full expression and perpetual originality of jiva tatastha is not impersonal as some sects believe. This MEANS jiva-tatastha is eternally represented by their endless nitya-siddha body in Goloka AND not as some impersonal inactive state in-between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva that has confused the meaning of the word tatastha. Only in this way does the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, from’ time' to 'time’, misuse their free will and choose to forget Krishna and the continual nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, and set in motion their lower nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva and 'rents’ temporary bodily vessels (dreams that are real but temporary) off Maha-Vishnu that always belong to Maha-Vishnu’s ‘thoughts’, making Him always the doer and not the nitya-baddha consciousness When the Gita says we are not the doer of activities it means that all activities in the material creation are actually the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. He is dreaming all ethereal, biological vessels and their innate surrounding (which is ALL collectively the mahat-tattva except for the visiting nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha, jiva-s’akti etc as Prabhupada explains - “The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature”. Chapter 3. Karma-yoga text 27 “The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Ch 3 txt 27 purport. Also jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity ‘individual influence’ in-between the superior energy (Krishna), and the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) that obviously includes all the ethereal and biological vessels the jiva-tatastha possesses when they choose to miss use their free will and enter the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha body that is ever present in Goloka

The correct understanding of tatastha “The living entity is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord, and the material energy is called the inferior energy. Due to his material inebriety, the living entity in the marginal position becomes entangled with the inferior energy, matter. At such a time he forgets his spiritual significance, identifies himself with material energy and thereby becomes subjected to the threefold miseries. Only when he is free from such material contamination can he be situated in his proper position”. Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada. “The supreme knowledge of Krishna is exhibited in three different energies–internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy, He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognisance”. Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada. “In the Mayavadi commentary, the spiritual, transcendental form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead has been denied, and the Supreme Brahman has been dragged down to the level of the individual Brahman, the living entity. Both the Supreme Brahman and the individual Brahman have been denied spiritual form and individuality, although it is clearly stated that the Supreme Lord is the one supreme living entity and the other living entities are the many subordinate living entities”. “. Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada By definition we are the marginal energy of the Lord and that marginal energy is tatastha. I believe then that jiva-tatstha is represented first and for most as our nitya-siddha eternal bodily that perpetually serves Krishna Goloka. Marginal therefore means we are separated entities, yet at the same time fully dependant on Krishna, just like the rays of the sun cannot exist without the sun (analogy only, not to be taken literally) Marginal also means we have free will. We are neither the superior energy or the inferior energy and therefore called the inbetween borderline energy or tatastha. However, the eternal expression of the jiva-tatastha is their perpetual a nitya-siddha bodily, which is the marginal potencies perpetual Krishna Conscious expression of their ‘jiva-tatastha’ individuality. Clearly tatastha is not an impersonal state of being, although the jiva-tatasha can enter and be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) in the dress of ethereal and biological containers. There are other interpretations unfortunately that translate the word tatastha as an impersonal beginning for the marginal energy of the Lord; it is that interpretation that is incorrect.

‘Could it be we are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu while our authentic constitutional eternal self or foundation is perpetually a nitya-siddha devotee in Goloka serving Krishna? The answer is yes. “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes” - Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b. You cannot obtain a clearer answer than that.. Many respected devotees in ISKCON like also understand this and appreciate that ‘when we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another, they all tell the whole truth’ comment - What remains 'imperishable' beyond mundane material time and impermanence is ones perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha identity or body that every marginal living entity has had eternally without origin. One just has to wake up from their material dreams within Maha-Vishnu's mahat-tattva and realize this fact by again becoming Krishna Conscious "Lord Maha-Vishnu is the source of thousands of avataras in His thousands and thousands of subjective portions. He is the creator of countless individual souls. He is also known by the name of Narayana, meaning the shelter of all the individual jiva souls. From Him springs forth the vast expanse of water known as the spiritual <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Causal</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>Ocean</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> wherein the material creation takes place. Maha-Vishnu then reclines in the waters of the <st1:place><st1:PlaceName>Causal</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType>Ocean</st1:PlaceType></st1:place> in a state of divine sleep, called yoga-nidra. Thus, it is said that the universal creation is but the dream of Maha-Vishnu"- Brahma-samhita 5.11-12 "The living entity has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies". (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) . 'Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krishna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness”. Caitanya-caritamrta lecture delivered in <st1:City><st1:place>San Francisco</st1:place></st1:City> on <st1:date Month="2" Day="18" Year="1967">February 18, 1967</st1:date> Comment - So what is the real meaning of nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) and nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned)? Srila Prabhupada answers - “We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated <st1:date Month="11" Day="14" Year="1968">November 14, 1968</st1:date>, From Jayadvaita Swami web site he explains that Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall and leave it - . “Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.” “Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.” In another letter, Srila Prabhupada gave further insights. “We are always with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. Where is <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> not present?” But “when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him. In the Isopanisad it is clearly stated, tad dure tad v antike: ‘He is very far away, but He is very near as well.’ (Isopanisad, Mantra Five). So this forgetfulness is our falldown. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately by rising to the platform of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness.” Our relationship with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is never lost, Srila Prabhupada said. “Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya. So it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is eternal, as both <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.” In still another letter, Srila Prabhupada restated this in yet another way: “We are all originally situated on the platform of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world, or Maya.” But when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra sincerely and without offence, our original <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness is at once revived. “So naturally everything about <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> is originally known to us all, and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His holy name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> in different ways.” Our separation from <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place>, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships. This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears. “After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.” Do you understand what the concept of dreaming in the spiritual sense means? Don’t mix it up with the dreaming of your biological body for those dreams ARE illusion, On the other hand the dreams, thoughts and desires of the marginal living entity are very real but are temporary, That’s what Prabhupada means when using the words dream or dreaming. They are simply our no-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that are expelled from Goloka to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and given ethereal and biological bodies (material bodies).

“Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport "sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha" Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 <!-- / message --> Srila Prabhupada – “This love is already there within the heart of everyone (nitya-siddha krishna-prema). http://caitanyacaritamrta. com/madhya/22/…

Akruranatha says - I have no problem with Bhakta Rod’s basic premise that the jiva’s “original” form is his siddha-svarupa, siddha deha, a form with limbs and senses and transcendental activities in the spiritual world. The thing I find strange is that some of the contributors here have a whole complicated philosophy that apparently leads them to conclude that those situated in their spiritual bodies are no longer jivas, no longer Krishna’s parts and parcels, no longer marginal or “tatastha” potency. I think mostly it is a disagreement about terminology only. All of us are devotees. No one seriously thinks that when a jiva attains perfection he becomes the Supreme Lord, the supreme enjoyer, Vishnu tattva. (Right?) I think also that we are a little challenged in our conversation because we are striving for “victory” over opposing views to a certain extent and thus we are not as charitable to each other as we might be, for example, in a friendly, supportive study session. I will be the first to admit that I am still very addicted to foolishly trying to enjoy this “dream” and thus I have little or no practical realization of what it is like to be situated in the spiritual world in my eternally perfect spiritual body. Some (non-ISKCON) devotees may well say we have never been to the spiritual world, we originated in the brahmajyoti, our spiritual bodies have never formed yet, etc. Part of their argument is that anyone who goes to the spiritual world never returns. Such statements do not seem in line with what Srila Prabhupada taught. However, Prabhupada also told us not to argue about such things. Apparently this particular question (about how and when we first became conditioned) is not particularly relevant to helping us make spiritual advancement, and arguing about it just seems to be a waste of time or, worse, a cause for dissention among devotees. I think that is the more impoprtant instruction of Srila Prabhupada about this. Bhakta Rod wants to solve the conflict by pointing out that we never fell, we are not in contact with material nature, we are eternally situated in our perfected, liberated body in the spiritual world. Even though we *can* return, it is not *really* returning because no one ever leaves anyway. It is a noble effort at least, but I cannot embrace it with his enthusiasm. Although we may understand theoretically that the spirit-soul is eternally perfect, we also have to acknowledge that our practical experience is that we really are suffering, we really are unsure, afraid, ignorant of our true position. So, even though it seems like a nice, neat solution, Bhakta Rod’s approach to the “jiva fall” controversy neglects reality as experienced by conditioned souls. Someone could challenge Bhakta Rod, “If you say you and I are really eternally in our svarupa siddhi spiritual bodies, then what specifically is your siddha svarup? What color are you? Are you a boy, girl, cow, tree…what? And what am I?” Krishna may know, Srila Prabhupada may know, but Bhakta Rod and I do not know (and Srila Prabhupada did not tell us in that kind of specific detail). For now we have to focus on practical service and gradually it will be revealed to us. So, if someone challenged us like that, we would be defeated and would not be representing Srila Prabhupada well. One related point: Srila Prabhupada’s mood was definitely not to encourage us to withdraw from the world and philosophize or meditate in a solitary place. He demanded that we serve the preaching mission with our body, mind and words. We should learn Srila Prabhupada’s books together in the spirit of being able to engage in spreading the “gospel” of Lord Caitanya everywhere. To become fully absorbed in such work is “practical samadhi” or, in other words, “Work now, samadhi later.” Akruranatha prabhu says - ‘Our idea is …..’ Sounds a bit supercilious to me. It is not a question of ‘our idea’ but rather what Srila Prabhupada has written and said. The concept of ‘our ideas’ has no relevant weight. It is Srila Prabhupadas teachings that carry ALL the influence of scriptural meaning. Bhakta Rod is also quoting many intimate conversations Prabhupada had with the inner circle of devotees that was possibly not for everyone to understand, due to many devotees of the time, as well as the outside human society, only beginning their pathway in Krishna Consciousness. It is therefore obvious some devotees will have a deeper understanding of the real meaning of scripture than others. Srila Prabhupadas mission is meant to re-awaken and re-establish every living entities ‘old’ or original Krishna Conscious constitutional position back home in Goloka. A few more points in response to Akruranatha posts “The material body has no factual existence in relation to the eternal soul. It is something like a dream. In a dream we may think of flying in the sky, or sitting on a chariot as a king, but when we wake up we can see that we are neither in the sky nor seated on the chariot ” - Contents of the Gita Summarized text 28 purport What is the real source of dreaming? Even though the marginal living entities may choose to leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, it is only a sub-conscious ‘dreaming’ departure like in a mirage; their unadulterated ceaseless svarupa body will always remain eternal founded in Goloka or Vaikuntha. In this way their non Krishna conscious desires, thoughts and dreams can find shelter and an avenue for expression within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu that are real but only a temporary manifestation, WHICH IS His maha-tattva creation. From there the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness can further devolve to the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that exists outside His dreaming mahat-tattva creation. Until the marginal living entity chooses to re-establish and again wake up from their nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness to achieve the shelter of the of their own continuous svarupa body that is ceaselessly serving Krishna unconditionally, they are prone to be defeated again and again by Maya. The unlimited number of conditioned nitya-baddha’s (JIVAS) being defeated by Maya remain under the influence of Her three modes within the three world of the mahat-tattva. Therefore the principle is that only the nitya-baddha secondary consciousness manifests as the jiva tatastha and not ones eternal svarupa body. The atomic conscious nitya-baddha secondary feature of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) that can only manifest outside the realm of Goloka, come out like rays from Maha-Vishnu’s glance and enter within His maha-tattva creation. Being in propinquity to Maya, these jivas, or the dreaming inferior nitya-baddha feature of the marginal living entity, see the effervescent variegatedness of the mahat-tattva. They have all the characteristics of the selfish forgetful secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entity which is self interested sensual gratification and to constantly deny Krishna to be the Supreme Lord and cause of all causes. Therefore because of their minute nature they may sometimes glance slightly towards the spiritual creation where the full eternal potential of their marginal identity eternally exists as nitya-siddha svarupa, and sometimes towards the material creation where they can possess ethereal and biological containers or vessels. In this way the marginal living entities nitya-baddha consciousness is also known as jiva-tatastha that is only relevant OUTSIDE of Goloka and Vaikuntha. In this way they take shelter of ethereal and biological impermanent vessels that are the decorative ornaments of the mahat-tattva. The lowly nitya-baddha non Krishna conscious state individual consciousness (jiva) is weak, because he has been separated from his authentic constitutional body for so long in Goloka that he has not yet recognized the know-how or ability to re-establish, or again reconnect to his legitimate spiritual svarupa Krishna Conscious bodily identity. Out of these unlimited nitya-baddhas or jivas, the ones who desire to enjoy Maya remain eternally bound by Maya because of being attached to sense enjoyment they seek after within the ethereal and biological vessels they possess. Those who engage in pure selfless unconditional devotional service to the Lord reawaken gradually to their eternal nitya-siddha body whom they really are and have always have been. In this way one eventually goes back home back to Godhead as their nitya-baddha ‘jiva’ identity dissipates as the sun disperses darkness. The Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6 The word svarūpa-sthah is also very significant. The real identity of the individual soul lies in understanding or attaining the knowledge that he is eternally a servant of Krishna. This understanding is called svarūp opalabdhi. By culturing devotional service, the devotee gradually comes to understand his actual relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This understanding of one’s pure spiritual position is called svarūpopalabdhi, and when one attains that stage he can understand how he is related with the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a servant or friend or as a parent or conjugal lover. This stage of understanding is called svarūpa-sthah. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.23.18 svarūpa-sthah means being situated in one’s constitutional position svarūpa — original form Śrī Caitanya Caritāmrita Ādi 2.6 And what is that form? “But with the eyes of love of Godhead one can see its real identity (svarūpa-prakāśa — manifestation of identity) as the place where Lord Krishna performs His pastimes with the cowherd boys and cowherd girls.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmrita Ādi 5.21 Akruranatha made the comment i.e. ‘Gauragopala is advancing the opposite proposition that, once the jiva becomes liberated and goes to Vaikuntha or Krishnaloka, it is no longer “marginal”, “minute quantity”, or “fragmental’. This comment is incorrect if one reads my post, I said - “It is therefore very clear that original and perpetually the marginal living entity is NOT tatastha (borderline) because ALL marginal living entities are perpetually established as their nitya-siddha bodily foundation in Goloka and remains that way without beginning or end.” I also agree with Bhakta Rod - ‘It must be pointed out clearly that the living entity is always marginal because of the ability to stay in Goloka or go to the mahat-tattva. Marginal also means the ability to choose as Srila Prabhupada explains. Also jiva-tattva can never become Vishnu tattva, such an idea is impersonalism’. I also like to point out that marginal can be used in different ways. When Srila Prabhupada referred to marginal living entities in Goloka, he meant they had the ability to use their free will and choose serving Krishna, or do their own thing with in the material creation. Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Comment -If that choice and free will to choose did not exist in Goloka or Vaikuntha, then we would be no better than assimilated androids. Free will is there is the constitutional make up of all marginal living entities in Goloka so they can use their own individuality, identity and personality to express a personal service to Krishna, or, if they choose, they can mise use it and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva and forget Krishna and the svarupa body they serve Krishna as. Prabhupada: They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) emphases The other use of the word marginal is a totally different context, the word marginal can also mean borderline or tatastha but this is a different use of the word when referring the freewill and the ability to choose. The foremost meaning of the word ‘marginal’ is the ability for one to use their free will and choose to remain either Krishna Conscious as their endless Svarupa body in Vaikuntha, or material conscious in counterfeit bodily vessels in the material creation or mahat-tattva.

“Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky. “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83. “Actually we are eternal family members of the lord, but due to our misuse of independence we have now forgotten our eternal relationship with Krishna, exactly like a man who is mad forgets his family relationship and loiters in the street. But when he is again in his normal mental condition, he remembers his family members and goes back to them. Similarly this Krishna Consciousness Movement is a treatment for reviving the memory that we all belong to Krishna’s family. 69-06-07. Prabhupada Letter: Uttamasloka “Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’ Bg Introduction Shiva says - The material world and material consciousness is dreamlike, but it is not an actual dream. The metaphor of a dream is used because a dream is temporary and the dreamer has limited mental acuity in the dream e.g. the dreamer doesn’t know that he is in a dream, (lucid dreaming notwithstanding) his mental awareness of the nature of the reality of the dreamscape he is in is limited to varying degrees. The main points in the metaphor is that the person in the dream doesn’t understand reality for what it really is and that eventually he will wake up and live in a more permanent reality. So a person in material consciousness living in the material world is not really “dreaming that he has left Vaikuntha but in reality is living in Vaikuntha” while his “nitya baddha consciousness” dreams it lives in the material world. Those ideas are simply your speculative extrapolations from your misunderstanding of various things you have read”. Comment - Unfortunately your understanding of shastra is incomplete and mostly immature; there are many, many quotes from Srila Prabhupada that have been used on this thread that clearly proves our existence in the mahat-tattva is simply the dream of the soul. This is no metaphor or mental speculation, it is a fact. The truth is, you and no one else can refute what Srila Prabhupada has said. And that is, the material world is not only the dream of Maha-Vishnu, but also the dream of the marginal living entity. Therefore shastric conclusion is that the dreaming of the marginal living entities becomes evident when they misuses their free will and choose to ignore Krishna AND THE NITYA-SIDDHA BODY THEY SERVE Krishna as. This is how one can only fall down, therefore dreaming within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu is NOT A METEPHOR, it is a temporary reality. “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah ‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b. We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu while our authentic constitutional eternal nitya-siddha body ALWAYS remains in Goloka. Therefore, unlike the misunderstanding some pandits have, some of them even Guru’s, caste Brahmanas and Swamis of Indian origin, who foolishly take words literately and claim the original state of the marginal living entity is like atoms, molecules and sparks in some impersonal effulgence, the fact is, such terminologies ARE METORPHOR because originally we are ALL nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna. Therefore the nitya-siddha body that is the full expression and potentail of EVERY marginal living entity, can never fall down and therefore they are not originally jiva-tatastha. “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, 18, 1977 Jappa Jim was right in this assessment however, where he has misunderstood shastra is WE ARE ALL NITYA-SIDDHA and the so called fall down by some marginal living entities (25%) is only in a dreaming state, that state of dreaming is called the nitya-baddha consciousness, we therefore agree on at least one thing and that is nitya-siddhas can never fall down from their perpetual svarupa body. ‘We are right now with Krishna, for Krishna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarupa dasa web site Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in Krishna’s/Gods creation and how each marginal living entity has a two fold reality, one permanent (nitya-siddha) and one impermanent and illusionary (nitya-baddha) that is like the dreams one has at night yet, unlike ones illusionary dreams in a biological body, the ‘dreams’ of the marginal living entity are real but temporary. “Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become… Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity” April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan We must understand that the marginal living entities are by constitution internal energy because all ‘life’ can only enter the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti only after one is transferred from the personal Vaikunthas that is also Known as the spiritual sky or Brahmajyoti. The marginal condition of the living is always known as marginal due to the ability of free will, this is the real meaning of the word marginal, of whom all living entities, Except of course the unlimited numbers of vishnu tattvas (direct expansions of Krishna), are. Many devotees understand these facts of the Shastra, in fact it is a concern that many cannot correctly understand the teachings of the Vedas that Srila Prabhupada correctly understood. Not even many of his Godbrothers and God nephews precisely understood Vedanta and have irrationally claimed we have originated from the IMPERSONAL Brahmajyoti. Srila Prabhupada strongly rejected that nonsense. ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967). Akruranatha states - Bhakta Rod says: “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact.” That could be one answer. It is a highly theoretical answer, not necessarily suited for every time and place. For starters, I did not say that, Srila Prabhupada did - ‘So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

copied from http://www.dandavats.com/?p=4275 Akruranatha makes the comment ‘If Srila Prabhupada says the living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, eternally, even while in the liberated condition, how can we deny it? We are not just parrots who repeat without understanding. But we should not go off inventing a new philosophy that is not approved by our acaryas on the plea that their “analogies” are mere “analogies”. We should accept and embrace the descriptions of our acaryas. Comment - I agree with Akruranatha prabhu. So what is the original position of the marginal living entities? Is it atoms, sparks or molecules shaped entities? Or is the original appearance of all living entities perpetually sat-cit-ananda-vigraha? Akruranatha - ‘We should accept and embrace the descriptions of our acaryas’. “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. - ‘Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972 Sri Isopanishad Text 16 “The sun and its rays are one and the same qualitatively. Similarly, the Lord and the living entities are one and the same in quality. The sun is one, but the molecules of the sun’s rays are innumerable. Comment - By this description we may believe that the marginal living entities are like molecules in the sun rays Sri Isopanishad Text 16 ‘The sun’s rays constitute part of the sun, and the sun and its rays conjointly constitute the complete sun’. comment - Here again we may think that we are originally atoms, molecules or rays in our original position, so many teach this as the unembellished meaning. This is because we foolishly take such analogies literally. Yes the Vedas describe the sun as the energetic and the rays are the expelled as energy that emanates from the sun as atoms, but how does shastra explain what that really means? Now, the following is the full revelation or explanation of this text that tells us such descriptions ARE only ANOLOGIES. Sri Isopanishad Text 16. ‘Within the sun itself resides the sun-god, and similarly within the supreme spiritual planet, Goloka-Vrndavana, from which the brahmajyoti effulgence is emanating, Goloka-Vrndavana, (compared to the sun) is really Krishna’s personal abode of unlimited active bodily pastimes The brahmajyoti effulgence is compared to atoms, rays, molecules sparks but is really the Vaikuntha planets and all the inhabitants as their svarupa bodily identities who reside their eternally as servants of the supreme lord. This is backed up as follows - ‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83 This is verified by Brahma-samhita: “I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, the first progenitor, who is tending the cows, fulfilling all desires in abodes filled with spiritual gems, surrounded by millions of wish-fulfilling trees, always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds of thousands of Laksmis, or goddesses of fortune.” (Bs. 5.29) Comment - So many scriptures confirm that in our original condition, we are not some rays or atoms in an impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. in our original perpetual position we are eternal servants of Krishna. The Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky in its full potential is ALL personally devotionally active - sat, cit ananda vigraha. The Impersonal feature is only found outside of the Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha Spiritual sky or brahmajyoti and is the creation of the marginal living entity in their secondary dreaming state. The mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspects of the Brahmajyoti is the creation of the rebellious marginal living entities in their nitya-baddha consciousness, facilitated and governed totally by Maha-Vishnu. Everything can only happen under the Lords plan whether in the Vaikuntha’s or dreaming outside the Vaikuntha’s. “The conception of God indicates the controller, whereas the conception of the Absolute Truth indicates the summum bonum or the ultimate source of all energies. There is no difference of opinion about the personal feature of God as the controller because a controller cannot be impersonal’. Srimad-Bhagavatam – Canto One preface. Comment - The fall down (choosing to forgetting Krishna) state is NOT a bodily plunge from Goloka or Vaikuntha, it is a conscious descend downwards to the lower self or unconscious dream setting where one’s ‘thoughts’ enters and creates the holographic dimension of the material delusional universe, such creations, that are real but perishable, are not factually created by the nitya-baddha consciousness, even though one may think they are creating such facilitates. In actual fact, all the dreams, thoughts and desires of the transmitted secondary self are built into a secondary reality within the mahat-tattva by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu who knows the past, present and future. Due to the nature of eternal time and the permanence of the Spiritual universe or Personal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, past, present, future, space and time that can only exist within the mahat-tattva cloud within the Spiritual Sky, are amalgamated as an everlasting event with no beginning or no end. Everything in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha eternally happens in the present. This confirms that ones original nitya-siddha-svarupa body is always PRESENT in Goloka-Vrndavana, even if one is sub-consciously off somewhere else in some imaginary dream within the maha-tattva or even in a dreamless state in the impersonal Brahmajyoti. That dream world or the non-Krishna conscious mahat-tattva is the material universe and comes under the phenomena of past, present, future, time, space, ethereal vessel, biological vessels, impermanence, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age, and death - all things that do not exist in Goloka or Vaikuntha. This clearly means all of us have an eternal individual vigraha form and rasa relationships that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we may be consciously unaware of this everlasting fact of creation due to our selfishness and egocentricity that create our independent dreaming secondary consciousness, that is transferred to the material universe, as a forgetful condition in an impermanent existence. ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967) comment - Just as a dream is merely a creation of one’s intelligence but has no actual substance, similarly, material lamentation, illusion, happiness, distress and the acceptance of the material body under the influence of Maya are all creations Maha-Vishnu’s illusory energy. In other words, material existence has no essential reality because of its temporary nature. “When one is Krishna conscious, he can realize that material existence, whether one is awake or dreaming, is nothing but a dream and has no factual value.” S.B. 7.7.27 Comment - In the same way, a self-realized soul is completely detached from the material body and the material world around it. He is like a person who has awakened and arisen from a dream. With expert vision sharpened by detachment, the self-realized soul cuts all doubts to pieces through knowledge of the self and completely withdraws his consciousness from the expansion of material variety and engages fully in the service of Krishna and eventually re-establishes his original svarupa identity in Goloka. “The material body has no factual existence in relation to the eternal soul. It is something like a dream. In a dream we may think of flying in the sky, or sitting on a chariot as a king, but when we wake up we can see that we are neither in the sky nor seated on the chariot ” - Contents of the Gita Summarized text 28 purport Comment - The material world is only temporarily “real” because is constantly decaying. After Maha-Vishnu withdraws the Mahat-tattva back into His dreaming Body, the material world is no longer real. Because reality is ultimately defined as something that is eternal and unbroken, the material world does not really qualify as reality in the absolute sense because of its temporary nature. So, no, the material world is not real. It is an illusion. Nonetheless, an illusion can cause many pains and pleasures, much like we experience while we are dreaming in our sleep. The marginal living entities in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness are in the sleeping condition within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu in His Mahat-tattva creation under the spell of His wife Maya and foolishly think that the material world is real, yet in truth it is not real. It is just like a dream. It appears to be real, but actually it is an illusion. It is a real illusion’. Srila Prabhupada also says we must be careful how we understand this concept of dreaming. “Just as in a dream we may create so many things which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream”. Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 16.8 Akruranatha says - ‘Bhakta Rod, you are now saying we cannot fall down because it is only a dream? That’s okay, but that dreaming is what we mean by fall down. It is not a “merrily merrily life is but a dream. . . ” It is very serious, most imperative. I am “dreaming”, you are “dreaming”. We have to be very afraid of this “dreaming.” We have to wake up. It is easier said than done. We cannot simply wish away the horrors of material existence by knowing theoretically that liberated souls see it as a dream. Comment – The fact is our fall down IS only thought generated and we factually can never fall down in our svarupa body, quote -‘So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

We are all already in a matrix style 'show' and as Eric Burden said in his 1967 song San Franciscan nights 'you are the star of that movie' Anyway found this very interesting quote - Kshamabuddhi DASA – ‘The material world is only temporarily "real". after Maha-Vishnu withdraws the Mahat-tattva, the world is no longer real. because reality is ultimately defined as something that is eternal and unbroken, the material world does not really qualify as reality in the absolute sense. So, no, the material world is not real. it is an illusion. nonetheless, an illusion can cause many pains and pleasures, much like we experience while we are dreaming in our sleep. The souls in the sleeping condition of maya think that the material world is real, yet in truth it is not real. it is just like a dream. it appears to be real, but actually it is an illusion. it is a real illusion’. http://www.gaudiyadiscussions.com/lofiversion/index.php/t4243.html