Sarva gattah

Quotes from Kailasa Candra dasa "The conclusion is that the jiva, although he does fall from the spiritual world, does not completely fall from it. Just as the jiva is eternally conditioned (because the duration of time is so immeasurable), he is also not forever conditioned. When this perspective is assimilated, the apparent contradiction of both of these terms is very easily removed'. Kailasa Candra dasa - 'The living entity lives out material dreams of his or her karmic choice in body after body after body. But, when the jiva soul, in human form, sincerely, seriously, and intensely decides to perform bhakti-yoga and awaken, he or she will discover within a specific, personal, ever-liberated (non-fallen) eternal relationship with the Lord'. Kailasa Candra dasa- 'If the living entity actually fell completely from the spiritual world, that relationship would have been extinguished. Such is not the case. It is almost totally covered over, but it is not actually extinguished. It can be revived. If the living entity was an eternally conditioned soul, then there could never be any hope for liberation and the promises of devotional service would be a colossal hoax and cartoon'. Kailasa Candra dasa - 'From this perspective, the spiritual master can and does say that the conclusion is that the living entity never actually falls from the spiritual world".

Srila Prabhupada “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Fall down? Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?” Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Such divided time and impermanence do not exist in the eternal pastimes of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com <st1:place>Krishna</st1:place> within the rest of the lotus flower or Spiritual Sky. The only way to 'fall down' into the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and enter that dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky which is one of the petals of the lotus flower as shown above, is by choosing to no longer be Krishna's servant. however, because ones perptual body in Goloka is eternally there, one only falls down in a dreaming state to the mahat-tattva and such ;dreams' are then provided ethereal and biological form, vessels or bodies by Maha-Vishnu's dreams that are all perishable.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.29.2b. The eternal 'reality of sevice to Radha and Krishna' is shown below within the lotus flower abode of Lord Krishna and Lord Chaitanya. The surronding Vaikuntha planets are also within the realms of 'eternal' reality of servitude to Lord Vishnu.. It is only within a dark petal of that lotus flower as shown below, that the 'perpetual reality' of the Spiritual Sky is divided into past, present and future and under the control of Maha-Vishnu who is actually dreaming all the activities within that petal or dark cloud within the Spiritual Sky. The side effect of this phenomenon is everything is impermanent within the mahat-tattva (material creation) dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada writes: “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah 'This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83. The Supreme Lord is absolute. Whatever He does is real. When He dreams His mystic slumber into which we are participating, is also reality. Being part of Maha-Visnu’s dream is so bewildering that it holds ever more surprises for us, and the Lord too. He watches sometimes with amazement what is happening here. “Although the Supreme Personality of Godhead constantly watches the activities of this world, no one sees Him. However, one should not think that because no one can see Him, He does not see, for His power to see is never diminished. Therefore, everyone should worship the Supersoul, who always stays with the individual soul as a friend.” SB. 8.1.11. For those who are awakening, the worship of the Supersoul means accepting and worshipping the spiritual master who is no different from Paramatma. The Gita Mahatmya of the Padma Purana also relates how Maha-Visnu watches His yoga-nidra in action. Srila Prabhupada used a host of words throughout his writings to describe the dreaming condition: illusion, delusion, matter, Maya, distress, birth and death, bewilderment, doubt, fear, material life, sense gratification, sinful activities, misdeeds, temporary, misery, fruitive activities, I and mine, mental speculation, external energy, lusty desires, fallen, false prestige, fools, rascals and so on. Open reading his books one will find matters pertaining to sleeping or waking circumstances because he is after all an awakened soul who came to mingle in our miserable dream world to sound the alarm, and he continues his guidance for sincere awakers. Restricted as we are while traversing our mutual dreamscapes, Krsna is always introducing different waking devices: His unlimited avatars, the Vedas, His pure devotees and His holy names. His kindness knows no bounds. Lord Chaitanya said: “Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [Maya] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.” CC. Madhya 20.117. Our body and the pleasures and pains associated with it, serve to deepen our sleeping condition. Kota nidra jao maya – piscira kole….” We have slept for so long on the lap of the witch called Maya.” If by some good fortune we hear a sound, feel a touch, receive a glance, experience a taste or smell an aroma issuing from an awakened source, it should beckon us to realize only one objective – to awaken to the orders of the spiritual master who will engage all of our senses in Krsna’s service. Srila Prabhupada says: “Thus the change of the gross body is not very important, but the change of the subtle body is important. The Krsna consciousness movement is educating people to enlighten the subtle body.” Purport to SB. 4.29.61. The waking process may take some time. If it is very rare to attain bhava where our true eternally awakened self is developed, shedding the gross and subtle dream body, then only a greedy, hungry effort, anxious to adopt all positive awakening procedures may expedite matters. Lord Krsna states: “After many births and deaths, he who actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knows Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.” BG. 7.19. While we are awakening, any acquirement of mercy can be passed on to other sleeping souls, to sound gentle informed alarm bell talks. When awakened souls gather to converse about the awoken reality personified [Krsna] and His nearest and dearest, such enlivening chatter will keep us awake and entice us towards Krsna Prema. “O Narada, I am not in Vaikuntha nor am I in the hearts of the yogis. I remain where My devotees glorify My name, form, qualities and transcendental pastimes.” Padma Purana. In the meantime while we are here staying awake, perhaps we can also, like Maha-Visnu, observe the incredible workings of this dream world, if even as a reminder to keep alert, or to be interestingly occupied. “Krsna consciousness means constantly associating with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in such a mental state that the devotee can observe the cosmic manifestation exactly as the Supreme Personality of Godhead does. Such observation is not always possible, but it becomes manifest exactly like the dark planet known as Rahu, which is observed in the presence of the full moon.” SB. 4.29.69. The entire millions of Vedic verses though varied in subject matter, really direct us toward sambandha, abhidheya and prayojana. One who knows the real meaning of the scriptures will simply chant Hare Krsna, for this is the alpha and omega of all sacrifices. If we obtain good fortune in this way, we will have progressed from susupti to awakening to awake. “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b. Copied from an article by Kesava Krsna dasa – GRS.

The internet is the new way of also distributing books, web sits like indiadivine.org/audarya are vey important. When Bill Gates presented his computor idea for every home in 1977 to IBM, they told him that no one would ever want a computor in the home - how wrong IBM was!! Any way I distributed 75 BTGs doctors surgerious yesterday and in each magazine wrote http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya encouraging others to see Krishna on the web

Still for a while Prabhupāda continued to chant the first round on the new initiates’ beads. The beads would then be sent in the mail along with the acceptance letter. Similarly he delegated the responsibility of awarding the gayatri mantra, second initiation. Even without seeing the candidates, Śrīla Prabhupāda was accepting the recommendations of the temple presidents, then, for the men at least, Prabhupāda would chant on their sacred threads, and they would also be mailed; and for chanting the mantra in their ear, then Prabhupāda did something else a little revolutionary. He started doing it through his separated energy–he made a tape recording and he sent that cassette to every temple. Every temple president had a cassette of Śrīla Prabhupāda chanting the gayatri mantra which was played in the ear of the new second initiate and that was as good as hearing the gayatri mantra from Śrīla Prabhupāda himself. Separated energy. In this way then Śrīla Prabhupāda was able to expand this movement very rapidly all over the world. But by 1972 there were so many people joining that it even became troublesome to do it through the mail, at least with respect to chanting on the beads. So even that function Śrīla Prabhupāda started to delegate. At the beginning of 1973 Prabhupāda wrote to Revatinandan Swami, who was at that time probably the only sannyasi in Europe, with a solution to this problem: Bombay 4 January, 1973 73-01-04 My Dear Revatinandana, Please accept my blessings. Just now I have received some more requests for giving first initiation from Dhananjaya, and now I am receiving weekly not less than ten to fifteen such requests from new students. So it is becoming very expensive to send so many sets of beads such long distance, and it has become little bothersome for me also, so I think now you may be appointed by me to give first initiations to new disciples by chanting on their beads on my behalf. In America Kirtanananda Swami is going that. So now if there are two of you that will give me great relief. Kirtanananda will chant on the beads for new devotees in America, Canada, like that, you can chant on the beads for the European continent new disciples. They shall, of course, still be considered as my disciples, not that they shall become your disciples, but you will be empowered by me to chant their beads and that is the same effect of binding master and disciple as if I were personally chanting. They may continue to send me their letters of request, along the President’s recommendation, and I shall give them name and it will be entered by my Secretary in our records, only I will send my letter of reply to you and you will purchase beads there and chant them and send, along with my letter to the new initiates. Is that all right? I shall continue to deal with the matter of second initiations. The sacred threads do not require so much postage to send airmail.” A similar letter also sent to Kirtanananda Swami the next day. The following month Śrīla Prabhupāda arrived in Australia. When he did initiations, even though he was personally present, he had Madhudvisa Swami chant on many of the beads. Thus we see that Prabhupāda delegated all the different aspects of the process of giving initiation to his disciples except one: the recommendation, the application, had to come to Prabhupāda and he had to send a letter back approving it. Then in 1977 that also changed, and even that function Śrīla Prabhupāda delegated. What happened was that Śrīla Prabhupāda got very, very sick at the Mayapur festival in 1977. He did do one big initiation ceremony, but he never really recovered from that illness. So around about May-time, Prabhupāda actually stopped giving initiations. For a couple of months, although new people were joining, nobody was getting initiated. This had happened previously that when Prabhupāda had gotten very sick he temporarily suspended giving initiations, because of course, when the spiritual master gives initiation he gets so much of the karmic effect from the disciples; generally of course that goes through to Kishnaa and most of it gets burnt up but there is some effect on the guru also. I saw that whenever Prabhupāda gave a big initiation, just afterwards he would get some kind of physical illness. So on one or two occasions when he got really seriously ill, he stopped giving initiations until he had recovered. In mid-May of 1977 then, Prabhupāda was in Hrishikesh. Then he took a turn for the worse, and they rushed back to Vrndāvana and it seemed like Prabhupāda was going to leave at any moment. That was the week that he made his will. Prabhupāda said all the GBCS should come. When they arrived Prabhupāda told them, “Now, if you have any questions about anything that is not clear, you meet together, you formulate your questions, and then you come to me and I will answer them.” So they did that on May 28. And one of the questions that they asked was, “How will the process of initiations go on after your departure?” Prabhupāda made it very clear, he said he would name some people, and he said “When I give the instruction, then they will become regular gurus.” Whoever they initiate, they will be their disciples, and he used this phrase, that they will be “disciple of my disciple.” And he also said, “They will be my grand disciples.” So that was very clear. Everyone understood perfectly what was going to happen after Prabhupāda left the planet. And of course it was what Śrīla Prabhupāda had been telling was going to happen since the last ten years. It wasn’t anything revolutionary or mysterious. Prabhupāda definitively stated it for the final time. There was however, one remaining problem, that whilst Prabhupāda was still on the planet, candidates that were coming and he wasn’t giving initiations. In early July Śrīla Prabhupāda meant with Tamal Krishna Goswami, his secretary, and he told him, “Now I am going to give you some names and these people will act on my behalf to give initiation.” And so on July 9th the letter was sent, and that named eleven senior disciples, who Prabhupāda said would now be responsible for giving initiations to the new candidates. As I have already explained, all the functions of initiations had already been delegated to his disciples, but the significant part about this one was that it was the final delegation–that Prabhupāda said that now, the new candidates need no longer write to me and the recommendations don’t have to come to me. Rather they write to one of these eleven men, whoever is nearest, and if they accept them, then they become initiated. At the same time he said they will still be my disciples. And the reason why Prabhupāda said that was because previously he had said, on May 28, and also prior to that, that there was an etiquette that as long as the spiritual master is on the planet, then the disciples, who may be doing the preaching, bring the new candidates to him: Letter to Tusta Krsna Swami, December 2, 1975: “Keep trained very rigidly, and then you are bona fide guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bona fide spiritual master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely; that will make me and Krishna very happy.” Śrīla Prabhupāda therefore observed that etiquette. Its clear from this how Prabhupāda delegated to his disciples all of these different aspects of the process for giving initiation into the chanting of the holy names. From the very beginning of ISKCON’s existence he started doing it, and the letter from July was just a final delegation, that’s all. It was in the specific context of Śrīla Prabhupāda still being on the planet but not doing the process himself. It was with the understanding, finalized on May 28, that when he disappeared, then the process of initiation, the acceptance of disciples, that would go to his disciples completely By Hari-sauri Dasa Hari Sauri Prabhu also used to share the driving of the Hare Krishna bus (only for a short time on the way to Adelaide) with Gauragopala dasa in 1972

Still for a while Prabhupāda continued to chant the first round on the new initiates’ beads. The beads would then be sent in the mail along with the acceptance letter. Similarly he delegated the responsibility of awarding the gayatri mantra, second initiation. Even without seeing the candidates, Śrīla Prabhupāda was accepting the recommendations of the temple presidents, then, for the men at least, Prabhupāda would chant on their sacred threads, and they would also be mailed; and for chanting the mantra in their ear, then Prabhupāda did something else a little revolutionary. He started doing it through his separated energy–he made a tape recording and he sent that cassette to every temple. Every temple president had a cassette of Śrīla Prabhupāda chanting the gayatri mantra which was played in the ear of the new second initiate and that was as good as hearing the gayatri mantra from Śrīla Prabhupāda himself. Separated energy. In this way then Śrīla Prabhupāda was able to expand this movement very rapidly all over the world. But by 1972 there were so many people joining that it even became troublesome to do it through the mail, at least with respect to chanting on the beads. So even that function Śrīla Prabhupāda started to delegate. At the beginning of 1973 Prabhupāda wrote to Revatinandan Swami, who was at that time probably the only sannyasi in Europe, with a solution to this problem: Bombay 4 January, 1973 73-01-04 My Dear Revatinandana, Please accept my blessings. Just now I have received some more requests for giving first initiation from Dhananjaya, and now I am receiving weekly not less than ten to fifteen such requests from new students. So it is becoming very expensive to send so many sets of beads such long distance, and it has become little bothersome for me also, so I think now you may be appointed by me to give first initiations to new disciples by chanting on their beads on my behalf. In America Kirtanananda Swami is going that. So now if there are two of you that will give me great relief. Kirtanananda will chant on the beads for new devotees in America, Canada, like that, you can chant on the beads for the European continent new disciples. They shall, of course, still be considered as my disciples, not that they shall become your disciples, but you will be empowered by me to chant their beads and that is the same effect of binding master and disciple as if I were personally chanting. They may continue to send me their letters of request, along the President’s recommendation, and I shall give them name and it will be entered by my Secretary in our records, only I will send my letter of reply to you and you will purchase beads there and chant them and send, along with my letter to the new initiates. Is that all right? I shall continue to deal with the matter of second initiations. The sacred threads do not require so much postage to send airmail.” A similar letter also sent to Kirtanananda Swami the next day. The following month Śrīla Prabhupāda arrived in Australia. When he did initiations, even though he was personally present, he had Madhudvisa Swami chant on many of the beads. Thus we see that Prabhupāda delegated all the different aspects of the process of giving initiation to his disciples except one: the recommendation, the application, had to come to Prabhupāda and he had to send a letter back approving it. Then in 1977 that also changed, and even that function Śrīla Prabhupāda delegated. What happened was that Śrīla Prabhupāda got very, very sick at the Mayapur festival in 1977. He did do one big initiation ceremony, but he never really recovered from that illness. So around about May-time, Prabhupāda actually stopped giving initiations. For a couple of months, although new people were joining, nobody was getting initiated. This had happened previously that when Prabhupāda had gotten very sick he temporarily suspended giving initiations, because of course, when the spiritual master gives initiation he gets so much of the karmic effect from the disciples; generally of course that goes through to Kishnaa and most of it gets burnt up but there is some effect on the guru also. I saw that whenever Prabhupāda gave a big initiation, just afterwards he would get some kind of physical illness. So on one or two occasions when he got really seriously ill, he stopped giving initiations until he had recovered. In mid-May of 1977 then, Prabhupāda was in Hrishikesh. Then he took a turn for the worse, and they rushed back to Vrndāvana and it seemed like Prabhupāda was going to leave at any moment. That was the week that he made his will. Prabhupāda said all the GBCS should come. When they arrived Prabhupāda told them, “Now, if you have any questions about anything that is not clear, you meet together, you formulate your questions, and then you come to me and I will answer them.” So they did that on May 28. And one of the questions that they asked was, “How will the process of initiations go on after your departure?” Prabhupāda made it very clear, he said he would name some people, and he said “When I give the instruction, then they will become regular gurus.” Whoever they initiate, they will be their disciples, and he used this phrase, that they will be “disciple of my disciple.” And he also said, “They will be my grand disciples.” So that was very clear. Everyone understood perfectly what was going to happen after Prabhupāda left the planet. And of course it was what Śrīla Prabhupāda had been telling was going to happen since the last ten years. It wasn’t anything revolutionary or mysterious. Prabhupāda definitively stated it for the final time. There was however, one remaining problem, that whilst Prabhupāda was still on the planet, candidates that were coming and he wasn’t giving initiations. In early July Śrīla Prabhupāda meant with Tamal Krishna Goswami, his secretary, and he told him, “Now I am going to give you some names and these people will act on my behalf to give initiation.” And so on July 9th the letter was sent, and that named eleven senior disciples, who Prabhupāda said would now be responsible for giving initiations to the new candidates. As I have already explained, all the functions of initiations had already been delegated to his disciples, but the significant part about this one was that it was the final delegation–that Prabhupāda said that now, the new candidates need no longer write to me and the recommendations don’t have to come to me. Rather they write to one of these eleven men, whoever is nearest, and if they accept them, then they become initiated. At the same time he said they will still be my disciples. And the reason why Prabhupāda said that was because previously he had said, on May 28, and also prior to that, that there was an etiquette that as long as the spiritual master is on the planet, then the disciples, who may be doing the preaching, bring the new candidates to him: Letter to Tusta Krsna Swami, December 2, 1975: “Keep trained very rigidly, and then you are bona fide guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bona fide spiritual master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely; that will make me and Krishna very happy.” Śrīla Prabhupāda therefore observed that etiquette. Its clear from this how Prabhupāda delegated to his disciples all of these different aspects of the process for giving initiation into the chanting of the holy names. From the very beginning of ISKCON’s existence he started doing it, and the letter from July was just a final delegation, that’s all. It was in the specific context of Śrīla Prabhupāda still being on the planet but not doing the process himself. It was with the understanding, finalized on May 28, that when he disappeared, then the process of initiation, the acceptance of disciples, that would go to his disciples completely By Hari-sauri Dasa Hari Sauri Prabhu also used to share the driving of the Hare Krishna bus (only for a short time on the way to Adelaide) with Gauragopala dasa in 1972

Śrīla Prabhupāda introduced the chanting of Hare Krishna immediately, both collectively and individually. As soon as some people became attracted to the chanting and they started taking a serious interest in Krihna consciousness, then he introduced them to chanting on beads. We have seen the pictures of the devotees when they started coming to the store-front at 26 2nd Ave., he got them to make sets of beads for themselves, and then very quickly, on Janmastami day September 6, 1966, he initiated them into the chanting of the holy names. Of course that is what initiation is all about–it means that one’s individual chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra is sanctioned or empowered by the spiritual master. When we chant Hare Krishna that means that literally we have Krishna dancing on our tongues. Through public kirtana Krishna is available to everybody. Nevertheless, if one wants to be really serious about chanting, then the process is to take initiation, because it is at that point that one makes an actual commitment to the Supreme Lord to begin rendering service to Him. Casual chanting is also beneficial but one makes more rapid advancement when one makes a formal commitment. We see then that within two months Śrīla Prabhupāda started to initiate devotees. There is a whole process to initiation. In the beginning Śrīla Prabhupāda was doing it all by himself: he was picking the candidates, approving them; he was giving them their new spiritual names, he was chanting the first round on their beads, he was doing the fire yajna. In this way he began to guide them into the science of chanting. And then after a few more months then he started to give brahṁana initiation. Again chanting, but the gayatri mantra this time, with Prabhupāda sitting personally with the candidate and speaking the mantra into their ear, and giving them their Brahmana thread. In this way Prabhupāda began the process, the sadhana of chanting. Casual chanting was also going on, but it was in this very specific science of sadhana bhakti that Śrīla Prabhupāda was interested in getting people committed to. So then what happened? Krishna consciousness started to expand. By early 1968 there were five temples in N. America and there were about 50-60 initiated devotees. Then from 1968–1971, four years, at the end of 1971 there were nearly 60 temples, and there were about 600 initiated devotees. Kṛṣṇa consciousness had spread from America to Europe; Śrīla Prabhupāda went to Africa; he went back to India with a large group of devotees; Australia and Japan started up etc… Krishna consciousness suddenly exploded. It increased ten times its size in four years. And then from 1971–1977 the number of disciples increased from 600 to over 5,000, and the number of temples went from 60 to 108. This rapid expansion prompted Śrīla Prabhupāda to introduce some innovations into the whole process of initiating people into the chanting of the holy names. He started to delegate all the different aspects of the process of giving initiation. By 1968 he had made a few Brahmana disciples and had started to install Deities. He also started structuring ISKCON; we see that the first real asrama structures started growing up from 1968 onwards, with the appearance of New Vrindaban, and then some of the bigger temples like Los Angeles. The brahmacari, brahmacarini and grhastha asramas became distinct, and by 1970-71 Śrīla Prabhupāda started giving sannyasa initiation to several devotees. Prabhupāda therefore devised some systems to help him to cope with the very rapid expansion of ISKCON around the world, and to facilitate that expansion also. It became obvious that he couldn’t travel to every single temple. But people were joining in all these places, and they wanted initiation. So Prabhupāda started to delegate the responsibilities of giving initiation to some of his disciples. He started something quite revolutionary–giving initiations through the mail. I don’t know whether SBSST ever did that but Prabhupāda was doing it. He instructed the temple presidents that “Now whoever you recommend and whose name you send to me, I will accept them.” He accepted them without even seeing them. He started having the presidents perform the fire yajnas; and as soon as he got someone a little qualified as his personal secretary, he delegated to him the business of choosing the names. Just like when I got initiated in 1972 in Sydney. There were about sixteen of us, Śrīla Prabhupāda was personally there and when each candidate came up, Prabhupāda was asking his secretary ‘Now what is his name?” So the system was that the secretary, or at that time his Sanskrit editor Pradyumna prabhu was on his party, had some books with different names of Krishna or Radharani, or the Visnu-sahasra-nama etc. Whatever the beginning letter of the candidate’s name was, he would find an equivalent Sanskrit name. For example, my karmi name was Denis Harrison, and when I grew up everyone used to call me Harry, because my name was Harrison. When I joined the temple I was Bhakta Harry. So when I got initiated, because my name was Harri-son, the secretary, Shyamasundar prabhu, picked out the name ‘Hari-sauri.’ Similarly Bhakta Phillip became Partha, Bhaktin Anne became Ambika, and so forth. [There were one or two occasions, fairly rare, where it did occur that Prabhupāda didn’t actually accept the name the secretary gave. In Vrndāvana in 1975, at Janmastami time, Bhakta Richard from Australia was accepted for initiation. When he came up the secretary gave his name. And Prabhupāda looked at him and he shook his head and said, “No.” And he gave a name of his own choosing–“Bhagavat Asraya.” So there were one or two occasions when Prabhupāda wouldn’t go along with what the secretary picked out, but on the whole that was the system. The point was that the secretary was actually doing that.]

Śrīla Prabhupāda introduced the chanting of Hare Krishna immediately, both collectively and individually. As soon as some people became attracted to the chanting and they started taking a serious interest in Krihna consciousness, then he introduced them to chanting on beads. We have seen the pictures of the devotees when they started coming to the store-front at 26 2nd Ave., he got them to make sets of beads for themselves, and then very quickly, on Janmastami day September 6, 1966, he initiated them into the chanting of the holy names. Of course that is what initiation is all about–it means that one’s individual chanting of the Hare Krishna mantra is sanctioned or empowered by the spiritual master. When we chant Hare Krishna that means that literally we have Krishna dancing on our tongues. Through public kirtana Krishna is available to everybody. Nevertheless, if one wants to be really serious about chanting, then the process is to take initiation, because it is at that point that one makes an actual commitment to the Supreme Lord to begin rendering service to Him. Casual chanting is also beneficial but one makes more rapid advancement when one makes a formal commitment. We see then that within two months Śrīla Prabhupāda started to initiate devotees. There is a whole process to initiation. In the beginning Śrīla Prabhupāda was doing it all by himself: he was picking the candidates, approving them; he was giving them their new spiritual names, he was chanting the first round on their beads, he was doing the fire yajna. In this way he began to guide them into the science of chanting. And then after a few more months then he started to give brahṁana initiation. Again chanting, but the gayatri mantra this time, with Prabhupāda sitting personally with the candidate and speaking the mantra into their ear, and giving them their Brahmana thread. In this way Prabhupāda began the process, the sadhana of chanting. Casual chanting was also going on, but it was in this very specific science of sadhana bhakti that Śrīla Prabhupāda was interested in getting people committed to. So then what happened? Krishna consciousness started to expand. By early 1968 there were five temples in N. America and there were about 50-60 initiated devotees. Then from 1968–1971, four years, at the end of 1971 there were nearly 60 temples, and there were about 600 initiated devotees. Kṛṣṇa consciousness had spread from America to Europe; Śrīla Prabhupāda went to Africa; he went back to India with a large group of devotees; Australia and Japan started up etc… Krishna consciousness suddenly exploded. It increased ten times its size in four years. And then from 1971–1977 the number of disciples increased from 600 to over 5,000, and the number of temples went from 60 to 108. This rapid expansion prompted Śrīla Prabhupāda to introduce some innovations into the whole process of initiating people into the chanting of the holy names. He started to delegate all the different aspects of the process of giving initiation. By 1968 he had made a few Brahmana disciples and had started to install Deities. He also started structuring ISKCON; we see that the first real asrama structures started growing up from 1968 onwards, with the appearance of New Vrindaban, and then some of the bigger temples like Los Angeles. The brahmacari, brahmacarini and grhastha asramas became distinct, and by 1970-71 Śrīla Prabhupāda started giving sannyasa initiation to several devotees. Prabhupāda therefore devised some systems to help him to cope with the very rapid expansion of ISKCON around the world, and to facilitate that expansion also. It became obvious that he couldn’t travel to every single temple. But people were joining in all these places, and they wanted initiation. So Prabhupāda started to delegate the responsibilities of giving initiation to some of his disciples. He started something quite revolutionary–giving initiations through the mail. I don’t know whether SBSST ever did that but Prabhupāda was doing it. He instructed the temple presidents that “Now whoever you recommend and whose name you send to me, I will accept them.” He accepted them without even seeing them. He started having the presidents perform the fire yajnas; and as soon as he got someone a little qualified as his personal secretary, he delegated to him the business of choosing the names. Just like when I got initiated in 1972 in Sydney. There were about sixteen of us, Śrīla Prabhupāda was personally there and when each candidate came up, Prabhupāda was asking his secretary ‘Now what is his name?” So the system was that the secretary, or at that time his Sanskrit editor Pradyumna prabhu was on his party, had some books with different names of Krishna or Radharani, or the Visnu-sahasra-nama etc. Whatever the beginning letter of the candidate’s name was, he would find an equivalent Sanskrit name. For example, my karmi name was Denis Harrison, and when I grew up everyone used to call me Harry, because my name was Harrison. When I joined the temple I was Bhakta Harry. So when I got initiated, because my name was Harri-son, the secretary, Shyamasundar prabhu, picked out the name ‘Hari-sauri.’ Similarly Bhakta Phillip became Partha, Bhaktin Anne became Ambika, and so forth. [There were one or two occasions, fairly rare, where it did occur that Prabhupāda didn’t actually accept the name the secretary gave. In Vrndāvana in 1975, at Janmastami time, Bhakta Richard from Australia was accepted for initiation. When he came up the secretary gave his name. And Prabhupāda looked at him and he shook his head and said, “No.” And he gave a name of his own choosing–“Bhagavat Asraya.” So there were one or two occasions when Prabhupāda wouldn’t go along with what the secretary picked out, but on the whole that was the system. The point was that the secretary was actually doing that.]

In the past this was understood by many great devotees of Krishna, jnani’s and scholars but rarely discussed due to the inability by many to understand and therefore has been dismissed as speculation and Impersonalism however, one can understand that the nature of the mahat-tattva from the Srimad-Bhagvatam and other Vedic texts is a place of Impersonalism, after all the nitya-baddha consciousness has no permanent body and is always changing bodies because the extended consciousness or bodiless consciousness, that originates from ones nitya-siddha perpetual rasa or svarupa body in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, has no factual body because it is only made up of non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts of self importance which is the legitimate right of all marginal living entities if they desire to pursue. Krishna never forces anyone to stay in His perpetual Kingdom, if they want to leave Krishna and their nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, Krishna will not stop them however, everything they achieve after possessing the ethereal body of Brahma and spending many life times in the heavenly planets, only to further fall to the middle secular biological planets where their biological vessel becomes further covered by a biological human form. From that biological human platform, every pleasure and painful situation is based on their own actions. The mahat-tattva is already set in an eternal atmosphere of past, present, and future that has the left over effect of impermanence and decay. Even so, the mahat-tattva is part of the perpetual Spiritual Sky and is also eternal.. It is the nitya-baddha consciousness that perceives the material universe as a temporary phenomanon goverened by past. present and future, moving through the material energy like a tidal wave moves through the ocean.

As you think you think the whole world thinks? Just because you cannot understand, it doen't mean others, including myself, have understanding of the mahat-tattva. Do you understand what the material world is or are you still a closet Christain who think they are their bodily vessel. Your out of your league Gurvani, this subject is way, way too advanced for your megger intelligence and mind to comprehend - don't critize what you cannot understand. You cannot even understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada when he clearly tells us we all come from Vaikuntha. "It may come as a surprise to some that the present bodily vessel we are passengers in are also available in another time and place when the mahat-tattva is again recreated for other nitya-baddha consciousness to ‘lease’ off Maha-Vishnu. Very few devotees even understand this fact in our present primitive 21st century irreligious materialist age and is frankly, not meant for all devotees to understand. For most of us it’s like trying to understand PhD level quantum physics at Harvard University from the 3<SUP>rd</SUP> grade in primary school". Maybe your not ready for this absolute truth because your present advancement 'can't handle the truth' That body YOU ARE IN has not only been your body over eternity. Its only on loan from Maha-Vishnu.

Guruvani you will not even accept the fact we all originate from Goloka and not from some Impersonal Brahmajyoti as other nonsense so called Vaishnava camps believe. Srila Prabhupada - "So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking". Taped Converation with Pusta Krsna Swami 1976 Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krishna, therefore we may fall down from vaikuntha at any moment. iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. find out this verse” . Taped Converation with Pusta Krsna Swami 1976 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972 <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. formerly we were with Krishna in his lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krishna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

I don't expect a mundane bodily attached fool like you to understand! Go and annoy some elses thread with your bogus ideas! Your body and mind is no better than a low life barking dog!!!

This inferior nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness exists at the same time as ones nitya-siddha body; yet in a different dimensions of time, (the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka adjacent to the ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva’) actually there is never a time when the nitya-siddha-svarupa body did not exist as its originally fullness serving Krishna. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Just like one is dreaming in their present and so absorbed in those dreams that they forget their present body, in a similarly way the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness is thedreaming state of the marginal living entity when they forget their nitya-siddha body. Such nitya-baddha dreams are out of sync with the eternal time their nitya-siddha body serves Krishna in which is also known as the‘perpetual present’. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> When the nitya-baddha consciousness extends from one constitutional nitya-siddha marginal identity, it enters into the mahat-tattva (material creation) and into the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. The nitya-baddha consciousness is then provided first with an ethereal or celestial containment and then eventually the further covering of biological vessels so one can seek out their independent desires and dreams. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> All ethereal and biological bodily vessels in the mahat-tattva are like ornaments and decorations that are part and parcel of a lounge room or house. In a related way such vessels or containers that carry the nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva soul, are also permanent fixtures that not only decorate the mahat-tattva, bur ARE the mahat-tattva or material creation. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Such vessels or decorative ornaments like Brahma; the demigods and all ethereal and biological bodies that contain the soul, are actually eternal posts in the sense that the vessel housing the jiva soul, is always reiterating its existence in every new creation of the mahat-tattva. The embodied jiva souls or nitya-baddha consciousness however, is not part of the mahat-tattva and therefore do not reiterate as the bodily garments they are temporarily absorbed in do.In other wordsit is only the ethereal and biological vessel that contains the jiva soul, which is eternally repeating its existence over aeons of time due to being controlled by past, present and future. A time so, so longs that all the material elements eventually repeat themselves.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It must be made clear though that each time the mahat-tattva is re-created by Maha-Vishnu and repeats its existence, there is always a different jiva soulpossessing the bodily containers we are presently in because such vessels have ultimately nothing to do with the jiva soul, the jiva soul has only possessed such bodily containers. In actual fact such ethereal and biological bodily vesselsare eternally the property and therefore part of Maha-Vishnu’s impermanent mahat-tattva creation. Such vessels, containers or bodies are repeatedly given out by Maha-Vishnu to an unlimited number of visiting nitya-baddha consciousnesses over multiple creations. Many before us in another time and space have passed through the body we are presently in and have lived the exact same life we are presently living. All vessels in the mahat-tattva therefore are part and parcel of the mahat-tattva, non-different from the mahat-tattva. In this way the mahat-tattva is created then annihilated then recreated again and again and again and again only to eventually repeat itself. This is possible and a fact due to time having no beginning or end. The mahat-tattva appears, disappears and reappears in one corner of the Spiritual Sky with all its bodily vessels, eternally. Such vessels are already in place for the mostly dreaming marginal living entities nitya-baddha consciousnesses to visit and live out their non-Krishna conscious fantasies. Entering the mahat-tattva is like entering a clothing shop or fantasy dress shop that hires out clothing, one wears them for a while then returns them and eventually someone else hires out those same cloths. Our ethereal and biological bodies are like the cloths in the dress shop or fantasy dress shop. This clearly means the bodily vessel one is in now has had an unlimited number of other nitya-baddha consciousnesses pass through it on their journey to where ever their desires and dreams lead them too. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This also means that Srila Prabhupadas pure bodily vessel is also a post for a visiting nitya-siddha every time this universe is re-created, rather than the mostly nitya-baddhas who come to the mahat-tattva. The nitya-siddha devotees are always in their original form when they come, but disguise themselves with an external garment or vessel so they can play out their role for Krishna’s pleasure in the mahat-tattva. Such great souls are never under the spell of Mayadevi like the nitya-baddhas are. In time, when an aspiring devotees or sanyasi become genuine and pure, such pure devotees reveal who they really are however, that is on the highest level of advancement in Krishna Conscious selfless devotion and must be earned with humility, selflessness, devotion and understanding the vessel you are presently in is not who you are, in fact many before you and others after you in another time, place and space in a another mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu, will also experience the exact same ‘bodily’ life you have lead, also falsely believing the bodily vessel you are in is exclusively ‘you’. This is all possible and actually completely natural because of the two aspects of time without beginning or end. The eternal presents in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, that same eternal presents IS divided into past, present and future within the maha-tattva or material creation. However if a nitya-baddha is qualified to take on the post of Brahma or even the vessel purely dedicated to spreading Krishna Consciousness, then they too can also play out that role of a pure devotee in that vessel and begin to spread Krishna Consciousness all over the world as Srila Prabhupada has done. For those who find this hard to believe or understand this explanation, remember, in Goloka Srila Prabhupada has a youthful eternal imperishable body, the bodily vessel he spoke through while on this earth, even though pure, was only a garment, a vessel or a container that carried a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna. The real identity, name and spiritual body of ‘Srila Prabhupada’ is presently a mystery to the majority of us until we are genuinely pure enough for him to reveal himself to us.No one other than Srila Prabhupada can give us such a gift of knowing his relationship with Krishna and who he really is. Those Gurus, who genuinely represent Srila Prabhupada in the disciplic succession, can also reveal the absolute truth to their disciples when they are ready or advanced enough to understand. Unfortunately our Spiritual understanding at the beginning of the 21<SUP>st</SUP> century is extremely primitive, fanatical and sentimental and what is written here is not be appreciated by such so called devotees because they cannot understand they are not the biological bodily vessel they are in and that Srila Prabhpada’s vessel is also a garment and is not who he really is in Goloka.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The concept of ‘bodily posts’ possessed by the visiting nitya-baddha consciousness is exactly what is happening from Lord Brahma’s ethereal vessel right down to the lowest biological form of life. In the case of Brahma a nitya-siddha may take that possession or if no nitya-siddha or nitya baddha is available, then Maha-Vishnu will perform that role. It is not so bizarre when you understand how the mahat-tattva works in divided time of past, present and future, knowing that in time a time comes along when everything is repeated. This understanding is probably not meant or ready for such a young immature simplistic and materially addicted pioneering primitive spirituality of the early 21<SUP>st</SUP> century nevertheless, for those who are knowledgeable enough to understand, it is a perfectly legitimate and natural way the mahat-tattva is eternally repeating itself with different souls playing out those ethereal and biological posts eternally. This is certainly another twist in understanding – ‘You are not that material body’<o:p></o:p> <o:p>The secret book of origins 2007</o:p>

Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to recur in the exact same self-similar form an incomprehensible and unfathomable number of times. In Western culture the concept has roots in ancient Egypt, and was subsequently taken up by the Pythagoreans and Stoics. With the decline of antiquity and the spread of Christianity, the concept fell into disuse, though Friedrich Nietzsche briefly resurrected it. In addition, the philosophical concept of eternal recurrence was addressed by Arthur Schopenhauer. It is a purely physical concept, involving no "reincarnation," but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is viewed as being not linear but cyclical. The basic premise is that the universe is limited in extent and contains a finite amount of matter, while time is viewed as being infinite. The universe has no starting or ending state, while the matter comprising it is constantly changing its state. The number of possible changes is finite, and so sooner or later the same state will recur. Physicists such as Stephen Hawking and J. Richard Gott have proposed models by which the (or a) universe could undergo time travel, provided the balance between mass and energy created the appropriate cosmological geometry. More philosophical concepts from physics, such as Hawking's "arrow of time," for example, discuss cosmology as proceeding up to a certain point, whereafter it undergoes a time reversal (which, as a consequence of T-symmetry, is thought to bring about a chaotic state due to thermodynamic entropy). The thought of eternal recurrence is central to the writings of Friedrich Nietzsche. As Heidegger pointed out, Nietzsche never speaks about the reality of "eternal recurrence" itself, but about the "thought of eternal recurrence." Nietzsche conceived of the idea as a simple "hypothesis", which, like the idea of Hell in Christianity, did not need to be true in order to have real effects. The thought of eternal recurrence appears in a few parts of his works, in particular 125 and 341 of The Gay Science and then in Thus Spoke Zarathustra.. It is also noted for the first time in his posthumous fragment of 1881 (11 [143]). The experience of this thought is dated by Nietzsche himself, in the posthumous fragments, to August 1881, at Sils-Maria. In Ecce Homo (1888), he wrote that the thought of the Eternal Return was the "fundamental conception" of Thus Spoke Zarathustra All the above mundane speculators have missunderstood the most important aspect of existence in the material world and that is we are not the biological bodies or vessels we presently and briefly possess, such vessels always remain the property of the maha-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu. The mahat-tattva’s innermost secrets revealed that reveals the Vedic truth of eternal recurrence. As already explained, the marginal living entities in their nitya-baddha dreaming bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva (real but temporary from the nitya-baddha’s perspective or view of reality) and in the process, forgets the higher self of their marginal personality (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious svarupa body, the experience of billions of lives absorbed in material bodily costumes will be totally insignificant to the point that it never happened. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist. Therefore ones svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna and not even aware that their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness even exists because factually it does not exist if one is fully Krishna conscious. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> When ones nitya-baddha consciousness dissipates on its journey back to its nitya-siddha body origins, the nitya-baddha consciousness begins to fad as it its layers of self interested dreams desires and thoughts in the mahat-tattva (remember the nitya-baddha jiva-tattva is an bodiless consciousness) are replaced with Krishna Consciousness. When the nitya-baddha consciousness has been fully dissipated, that instance coincides with ones entrance into Vaikuntha and the simultaneous event where one becomes aware of their genuine nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa bodily personality and identity to the point they are concerned or even possibly remember that they had been in a dreaming condition in the first place. This is due to the perpetual concept of the ‘eternal present’ that is eternally devoid of past and future in Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha, beyond material time and space born from the existence of the phenomenon of past, present and future that can only exist in the mahat-tattva. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Keep in mind when absolute knowledge is realized, all the ethereal and material bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva or material creation are not only counterfeit bodies or vehicles the nitya-baddha (jiva/soul) consciousness is provided with by Maha-Vishnu, but also are ‘posts’ or ‘rented costumes outfits worn in Maha-Vishnu’s stage drama of material existence’ where the nitya-baddha consciousness wears to act out the already conceived part according to the script (dream) of Maha-Vishnu that eternally exists already as part and parcel of His maha-tattva creation. In other words such costumes worn by the visiting nitya-baddha consciousness are always there in blue print every time the mahat-tattva is re-created by Maha-Vishnu after its annihilation. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It must be clearly understood that the perpetual present exists in the entire Spiritual Sky that includes the mahat-tattva except within the mahat-tattva the eternal presents is divided up into past, present and future that ‘appears’ to have a decaying effect on all ethereal and biological bodies and their surroundings. Like frames in a movie film where each frame always exists together and at the same time as a part of the over all film canister or cylinder similarly, the material ethereal and biological costumes always exist from its birth, to youth, middle age and death. Each step of the vessel or body is like the frame in the film canister and that canister is compared to the mahat-tattva. Just like a film is made up of frame by frame pictures, the bodily costume and their surrounding that are both decorations and ornaments that are part of the mahat-tattva, are also divided into frame by frame realities that are within the perpetual blue-print of the mahat-tattva that the nitya-baddha consciousness simply passes through. The facilities or bodily costumes and their entire pathway from birth to death, is provided by Maha-Vishnu. We are simply passengers in His bodily creations playing out His dreams that simultaneously are also our dreams that cannot be fulfilled without the provisions of Maha-Vishnu. . It may come as a surprise to some that the present bodily vessel we are passengers in are also available in another time and place when the mahat-tattva is again recreated for other nitya-baddha consciousness to ‘lease’ off Maha-Vishnu. Very few devotees even understand this in our present primitive 21st century irreligious materialist age and is frankly, not meant for all devotees to understand. For most of us it’s like trying to understand PhD level quantum physics at Harvard University from the 3<SUP>rd</SUP> grade in primary school.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the past this was understood by many great devotees, jnani’s and scholars but rarely discussed due to the inability by many to understand and therefore has been dismissed as speculation and Impersonalism however, one can understand that the nature of the mahat-tattva from the Srimad-Bhagvatam and other Vedic texts is a place of Impersonalism, after all the nitya-baddha consciousness has no permanent body and is always changing bodies because the extended consciousness or bodiless consciousness, that originates from ones nitya-siddha perpetual rasa or svarupa body in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, has no factual body because it is only made up of non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts of self importance which is the legitimate right of all marginal living entities if they desire to pursue. Krishna never forces anyone to stay in His perpetual Kingdom, if they want to leave Krishna and their nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, Krishna will not stop them however, everything they achieve after possessing the ethereal body of Brahma and spending many life times in the heavenly planets, only to further fall to the middle secular biological planets where their biological vessel becomes further covered by a biological human form. From that biological human platform, every pleasure and painful situation is based on their own actions. The mahat-tattva is already set in an eternal atmosphere of past, present, and future that has the left over effect of impermanence and decay. Even so, the mahat-tattva is part of the perpetual Spiritual Sky and is also eternal.. It is the nitya-baddha consciousness that perceives the material universe as a temporary phenomanon goverened by past. present and future, moving through the material energy like a tidal wave moves through the ocean. Technically because the mahat-tattva is also in the Spiritual universe, it is eternal and it is simply the consciousness of the of the nitya-baddha passing through just like how one views the frame by frame vision of a moving picture. The implications of this knowledge are extraordinary and not easily understood and even perilous and dangerous to those who continue to think they ‘own’ their material body (ethereal and biological container the nitya-baddha consciousness is absorbed in) or think they ‘are’ their material vessel nevertheless, one thing is certain – we are certainly not the ethereal and biological bodies supplied to us by Maha-Vishnu that so many nitya-baddhas before us have travelled through and so many after us will travel through for all eternity within the mahat-tattva. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The occurrence of 'moving time' outside of the 'eternal present' (Goloka) only appears to exists from the view point of the inferior nitya-baddha secondary self in the perishable mahat-tattva due to that phenomenon of past, present and future whose fruits are decay, forgettfulness and impermanance, where as only the 'imperishable presents' exists in the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha. This devotional reality is the full potential and genuin identity of the marginal living entity which is their full superior krishna Conscious nitya-siddha or nitya-mukta self.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The fact is the mahat-tattva is not only real but is also perpetual like the Vaikunthas however, due to its Impersonal aspect, it actually does not move at all, it is only moved by the nitya-baddha consciousness or life force according to the overall plan of the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. Every aspect of the mahat-tattva is eternally in place and the nitya-baddha consciousness just passes through what is already there yet experiences the phenomena of ‘time division’ past, present and future and its by product of impermanence, birth, disease, old age and death. If one can step out of their biological body, it is possible to see the entire pathway that the ethereal and biological body traverses in both direction of past and future as Arjuna was shown by Krishna.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> ALL marginal living entities have a two fold consciousness; one is the nitya-siddha perpetual body which is the real permanent fullness of all marginal living entities, being their genuine svarupa personality, identity and bodily form in Goloka in the perpetual present, while the other is the inferior nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming non-Krishna consciousness that can only exists in divided time of past, present and future in the mahat-tattva or unaware of past, present and future in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or tatastha condition of consciousness. The secret book of origins 2007

Devotees of Krishna are the devotees. And what do you mean by ISKCON? There is the legal aspect recognized by wordly governments and then there is the absolute aspect that is beyond all that. If we take the word ISKCON as it is - The International Society For Krishna Consciousness as established by Srila Prabhupada, then ISKCON means those who follow the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, be it in the Temple or ones home or on the road - The actual word ISKCON is way, way beyond the concept of an institutionalized 'religion'. There are many branches that make up Srila Prabhupada's real ISKCON movement that is hard for many to understand during these pioneering years.If ones understanding of Spiritual life is solely based on Srila Prabhupada's teachings, then that is the real ISKCON.

Srila Prabhupada - Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world, but when we want to take Krishna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state due to those non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state, we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable dark reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation. While in the mahat-tattva or material creation, we forget our actual body and position in Krishnas abode and thus are free to act out our non-Krishna conscious desires in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or dreams are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> Hare Krishna.

Agree on this subject at least, the present version of ISKCON is nothing to what it was when I joined in 1971. Back then we had Prabhupada and after his departure the leaderships attempt to follow him was imitation and so many got hurt with dictorial ignorance and arrogence. It is those humble few who genuinly follow the program of chanting and Diety Worship who are the heart of ISKCON because they carry Prabupada with them. A friend of mine went to an ISKCON program in Mentone (Melbourne Australia) recently and he thought it was mundane as a T.M. gathering. They preach Iskcon yet their adult kids are rude puffed up materialistic karmis - those versions of ISKCON are best avoided. I liked it when their was 6 hours of street chanting and distributing books every day. Thats the real ISKCON. You ask so many young people today who the Krishnas are, and most do not know, where as everyone new who the Krishnas where when Prabhupada was here in the early 1970s before the immitaters took over. PURITY IS THE FORCE. In all fairness ISKCON will survive because it is Lord chaitanya's Movement. Those few sincere devotees will carry it to the next level and this will slowly happen as the 'old regemented proud lazy arrogent materially motivated leadership simply dies off' Hare Krishna have a good day

Morning Walks with His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Recorded on May 3, 1973, Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh and Brahmananda Svami. Srila Prabhupada. Almost everyone in the world is under the false impression that life is born from matter. We cannot allow this nonsensical theory to go unchallenged. Srila Prabhupada "Life does not come from matter. Matter is generated from life". This is not theory; it is fact. Science is based on an incorrect theory; therefore all its calculations and conclusions are wrong, and people are suffering because of this. When all these mistaken modern scientific theories are corrected, people will become happy. So we must challenge the scientists and defeat them; otherwise they will mislead the entire society. Matter changes in six phases: birth, growth, maintenance, production of by-products, dwindling and death. But the life within matter, the spirit soul, is eternal; it goes through no such changes. Life appears to be developing and decaying, but actually it is simply passing through each of these six phases until the material body can no longer be maintained. Then the old body dies, and the soul enters a new body. When our clothing is old and worn, we change it. Similarly, one day our bodies become old and useless, and we pass on to a new body. As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita (2.13), dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara/ tatha dehantara-praptih: "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death." And a little later (2.18): antavanta ime deha nityasyok-tah saririnah. This means that only the material body of the indestructible and eternal living entity is subject to destruction. The material body is perishable, but the life within the body is nitya, eternal. 14.18: Those who are steadfast in Sattva go upward (to heaven); the Rajasic stay in the middle; and the Tamasic immersed in the meanest guna, go down or sink low. The following is within the scope of Upanishads: It appears that material originating from Akāsa (Imperishable Ether) infused with the all-pervading Self, undergoes an evolutionary process from a plant or an amoeba to an animal to a human being". This evolutionary compulsion carries the being from an amoeba to a sannyāsi, who reaches the world of gods on gaining Brahman. At human level, the individual soul displays Buddhi, which is absent in the animals".

Well written, its not easy attempting to be an aspiring devotee. I've learnt many things from theist and I will take this on board also. Frankly I'm weary of being to0 humble because as soon as you show weakness people kick you while you are down, I experienced that during the pioneering years of ISKCON. Despite what I believe and what others believe, I'm here to also learn, to break down my own impersonal barriers and have my faults exposed and my the understanding of Spiritual life corrected. I'm learning that EVERYTHING has to be backed up with quotes from Srila Prabhupada that others can look up and check - I' m still learning this as I write this post and I thank you guys for just now making me undertand that. Hare Krishna

Interesting post and well presented however, the difference between the Goloka Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm and the mahat-tattva is Goloka is full of life (sarva-ghatah) while the mahat-tattva is both, sarva-gattah yet is aways also dead matter even with the presents of the jiva soul. This is the difference between Goloka and the mahat tattva. Personalism is the original and only possition of the conditioned soul. In 1974, at the ISKCON center in the countryside near Frankfurt, West Germany, Srila Prabhupada: "It's not the person who has died, but the body. According to Vedic knowledge, the body is always dead. For example, a microphone is made of metal. When electric energy passes through the microphone, it responds by converting sound into electrical impulses, which are amplified and broadcast over loudspeakers. But when there is no electricity in the system, nothing happens. Whether the microphone is working or not, it remains nothing more than an assembly of metal, plastic, etc. Similarly, the human body works because of the living force within. When this living force leaves the body, it is said that the body is dead. But actually it is always dead. The living force is the important element; its presence alone makes the body appear to be alive. But "alive" or "dead," the physical body is nothing more than a collection of dead matter". The first teaching of Bhagavad-gita reveals that the condition of the material body is ultimately not very important. asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti panditah "The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead." [bg. 2.11] The dead body is not the real subject for philosophical inquiry. Rather, we should concern ourselves with the active principle -- that principle which makes the dead body move -- the soul. Prof. Durckheim: How do you teach your disciples to become aware of this force which is not matter, but which makes matter appear alive? I can intellectually appreciate that you're speaking a philosophy which contains the truth. I don't doubt it. But how do you make a person feel it? Srila Prabhupada: It's a very simple matter. There is an active principle which makes the body move; when it is absent, the body no longer moves. So the real question is, "What is that active principle?" This inquiry lies at the heart of Vedanta philosophy. In fact, the Vedanta-sutra begins with the aphorism athato brahma-jijnasa -- "What is the nature of the self within the body?" Therefore, the student of Vedic philosophy is first taught to distinguish the difference between a living body and a dead one. If he is unable to grasp this principle, we then ask him to consider the problem from the standpoint of logic. Anyone can see that the body is changing and moving because of the presence of the active principle, the soul. In the absence of the active principle, the body neither changes nor moves. So there must be something within the body that makes it move. It is not a very cliffficult concept. The body is always dead. It is like a big machine. A tape recorder is made of dead matter, but as soon as you, the living person, push a button, it works. Similarly, the body is also dead matter. But within the body is the life force. As long as this active principle remains within the body, the body responds and appears alive. For instance, we all have the power to speak. If I ask one of my students to come here, he will come. But if the active principle leaves his body, I may call him for thousands of years, but he will not come. This is very simple to understand. But what exactly is that active principle? That is a separate subject matter, and the answer to that question is the real beginning of spiritual knowledge.