HerServant

http://www.catholictreasury.info/Ascent/asc4.htm This will help explain "visible" and "invisible" .. read it honestly and carefully Summary: No one can see God with contaminated senses. "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God (Matthew 5:8)."

Thank you for your honest, open heart of sharing. You are experiencing one of the early stages of spiritual life referred to christian mystics as "The dark night of the soul", or sometimes referred to as "the desert". I recommend you study St. John of the Cross' "The Ascent of Mount Carmel" http://www.ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent.iv.ii.html Another, possibly better translation is here: http://www.catholictreasury.info/Ascent/asc1.htm Also, you need to do something nice for someone, anyone. Practice some service or random acts of kindness. Call your mom to tell her you love her. Peace. HerServant and yours.

Did Jesus Christ lived in India? "That is true. I have studied ancient records in the Puri Jagannath Temple archives confirming these facts. He was known as “Isha,” and during part of his time in India he stayed in the Jagannath Temple. When he returned to his part of the world, he expounded the teachings that are known today as Christianity.’" - Jagadguru Sri Bharati Krishna Tirtha, Sankaracharya of Jagganath Puri (1959), source: SRF Magazine Winter 1992 Issue. There is no record of the name Isa for God prior to the 1st century in Hindu literature. It therefore may also be possible that IsaVasya Upanishad was a text authored by one of Jesus' disciples in India. The Isa Upanishad is the earliest historically verifiable scriptural reference of the worship of the Person of God. Om purnamadah purnamidam purnat purnamudacyate purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavasisyate Om santih santih santih The Word which is complete is complete in itself. From it was produced this complete creation. Yet the complete still remains complete. Om Peace Peace Peace Isavasyamidam sarvam yatkiñca jagatyam jagat | tena tyaktena bhuñjitha ma grdhah kasyasvid dhanam || 1 || Jesus is immanent in this entire universe – whatever in this universe, animate or inanimate. By Him is given sacrificially what is given for your enjoyment. Therefore do not try to gain some one else’s wealth.

Of course these sources have undergone "contamination" by way of translation and interpretation. This is the VERY reason that Srila Prabhupada entitles his Bhagavad Gita translation " Bhagavad Gita - AS IT IS" There are many sects in Hinduism that have in fact "polluted" scriptures when viewed from another sects perspective. A good example would be to find a personalist translation of Svetasvatara Upanishad. It is CLEARLY a work of devotion to the Personal God, but among mayavadis its meaning is impersonal. If we sincerely approach Hinduism with the same analytical rigor as is done in academic study of Christianity or Judaism (e.g. archeological, historical, linguistics) ... there simply is no conclusion other than to conclude that there is no one single pure rendering of vedic scriptures (date, origin, translation, etc.) and that various hindu schools have differing renderings of the same scripture. Which one then is pure? For personalists, we will say certainly, "only literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest." Srila Prabhupada, seeing mayavadis as a crisis, "rescues" the Gita from the hands of impersonalists and renders a translation "As It Is". Personally I think the translation should be Personal but without Srila Prabhupada's such free substitution of the Holy Name Krsna with other sanskrit Holy Names. This is because, I believe that those holy names too are personal Nama Rupa revelations of the Lord given to the orginal composer of the Gita. Maybe Srila Prabhupada felt that society was so void of personal worship of Krsna that he felt he had to make many substitutions of other Sanskrit names for God with the name Krsna. None the less, the SB itself says that the scripture is "composed imperfectly" i.e. polluted. In the extreme case of aetheists, they made the Person of God an "it" and a "void" .. the worst pollution.

This is fine with me and recommended by all true seekers of various faiths. "Just approach a spiritual master". So we can go to an authentic Christian saddhu (e.g. monk, hermit, etc.) and he can guide us. We can go to a authentic Vaisnava sannyasi and he can guide us. If we have Vaisnava questions, we should not ask the Christian monk for an authorative commentary on Vaisnavism. We can ask the Christian saddhu for a perspective (christian) on Vaisnava philosophy. That is OK. Also, we should not go to the Vaisnava monk and ask for authorative position on Christianity, but rather we can ask for Vaisnava perspective on Christianity. This way we can help promote peace. Because, it is easy to agree on the high principles .. the perfect principles of bhakti. From Vaisnava side, it should be no problem if I follow Jesus Christ faithfully, because from Vaisnava view, if Jesus leads to Krsna then that is a bonafide approach to reach God. (through guru). From the Christian side, if Krsna is the ultimate goal, and Christian saddhu takes BG as Truth wherein Krsna says "I am the father", then there is no conflict. This is why I point out the monestaries in India that there are both Hindu and Christian sannyasi. They don't care about religion .. they care only about loving and serving God! Everyone's personal experience should be respected. Particularly this poor fallen soul can advise only what the scriptures say. But to the point of this thread, the Bible contains Bhakti yoga and that Bhakti yoga of the Bible is the SAME as the Bhakti yoga of the vedas. Bhakti Yoga is above Christianity religion and Vaisnava religion. That fact I am sure .. Love of God transcends every human conception and all logical contraversy. HerServant and yours.

ok sorry ... I should have wrote ... "The Truth" My position, is that authentic bhakti traditions borrowed from one another over the course of time. Sastra must come from Sadhu. Where does a sadhu live ? (Cave, desert, mountain, etc.) What does a Sadhu have to do with "the Truth"? Sadhu realizes the absolute Truth and they compose a hymn or scripture, and in many cases not written. From this evolves Sastra. Over time and circumstance, all manner of variations may occur. Copies, translations, interpretations, etc. I am not claiming the reference I cited is "the untold Truth" ... I was quoting from that author's web page. But I think it is important that we understand that there are many perspectives that need to be taken into account. Especially in this "Information" or "Mis-Information" Age! Peace, HerServant and yours.

References? Let's start with archeological, and historical references which can be authenticated by objective sources. Try reading these to start: http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/articles/Isovasya/Prof_%20M_M_Ninan%20-Isovasya%20Upanishad.htm and this: http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/articles/PDF/Emergence%20of%20Hinduism.pdf and how about this for a real untold truth of Indian History!: http://www.acns.com/~mm9n/articles/dalit/index.htm

Yes! I definitely think it is dangerous and in general do not advocate commentary on prophetic books, particularly Revelations. My post is not a conclusion, realization, or my position. I merely consider this an interesting irony. I posted here almost for levity sake. Wouldn't it be interesting next time you are confronted by Fundamentalists to tell them that you: "Follow Prabhupada because THE BIBLE SAYS SO" LOL

Well this may come as a shock, but it is possible that the bible predicts the coming of Srila Prabhupada. Rev. 7:2-8 - Prophecy of Srila Prabhupada "And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the sign of the living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying: Hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we sign the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them that were signed, an hundred forty-four thousand were signed, of every tribe of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda, were twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Ruben, twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Aser, twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Nephthali, twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Manasses, twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Zabulon, twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand signed: Of the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand signed." Rev 14:1 - And I beheld, and lo a lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads. Angels described in the bible "usually" descend from heaven rather than ascend from earth (the east). Therefore the ascending angel must refer to a human messenger from God. The act of one annointing and consecrating on the forehead would be of the ancient tradition of Angi-rasa. An Angirasa is a Fire priest representative of the Brahma sampradaya who initiates and annoints according to the Rig Veda purusha sukta fire sacrifice tradition. Srila Prabhupada arose from the east and came west annointing and sealing people devoted to God with sign on their forehead. The sign he annointed with the Holy Name of the Living God as the Urdhava Tilaka "U", or "Y", or "V" is the very Sign of the Name of the Living God, each representing the Name Vasu deva. ... I wonder what "christians" will think if the Lord sent Vaisnava Prophet to evangelize them ?

Right. We are all being challenge by Lord Krsna to render authentic service. We have our institutions, big and small, but we can see the sins/crimes of the big institutions (e.g. Catholic Church) even in the small (ISKCON). Do we then condemn all catholics or ISKCON members. No. I see that there are those that try to stay faithful and effect change within. However, I also recognize that this job is almost impossible. In the example of St. Francis of Assisi .. he had to become sadhu first .. he walked out of his village naked and renounced. After many years of austerity he returned to the steps of St. Peters as a beggar demanding to see the pope. The pope refused, but was haunted by dreams of the "beggar". Then the audience was granted and he "converted" the pope! ie. the pope remembered the Lord. We must follow the sadhu! Srila Prabhupada comes from the east to the west to annoint devotees. He challenges everyone to a life of authentic devotional service.

ditto

I am not pushing bible. I did not start this thread. I am pointing out facts that devotees transcend religion/religiousity. It can be proven without a doubt that the Bible is a vedic record from historical, linguistic and comparative aspects. Regarding Jesus, He is unlimited. The historical Jesus is in fact mentioned in the Vedas and many times. He is just called by many different names. The acharyas all mention Him. For example, verse 7 chapter 90 of the 10th book of the Rigveda, the sacrifice of Prajapathy the Son of God, is well explained. ‘At the time of sacrifice, the son of God will be tightly tied to a wooden sacrificial post using iron nails by hands and legs, he will bleed to death and on the third day he will regain his life in a resurrection.” Evidently none of the avatars meets this description. sa paryaghachachukrama virunamsnaviram shudhhama papavittham kavirmanishi : paribhur swayambhur yadhatha ityadhorthan viyadhadhacha chiviyaha samabhyaha” A self realized person visualizes that supreme personality of God head as (1) paryagathaha – omnipresent (2) Shukramaha – omnipotent (3) akayamaha – having no phenomenal body (4) avranamaha – in this person there are no imperfections that of gross physical body (5) Asnaviramaha – without any vein (his actions do not depend upon the viens for emulation of blood to the limbs of his body which is perfect on his own occord, in other words no blood in his veins) (6) shukthamaha – he is pure, perfect, no impurity (7) appapavidhham – he is beyond any mundanity as maya never can have any hold ( dark ness can’t enter him) (8) kavihi – he becomes the efficient cause for the creation and preservation of the universe and therefore he is omniscient (9) manishihi – he is the first philosopher who destroys the darkness of the heart of the soul with his spiritual light (10) paribhuhu – controller of everything (11) swayambhuhu – self-existent, from the beginning, he is not of the father and mother by flesh -isha upanishad .In the beginning God was there and he was a spirit. (Ithereya Upanishad:1/1/1) Kathopanishad says: “ Naiva vaacha na manasaa Praapthum shakyo na chakshusha Astheethi bruvathonyyathra Kadam thadupalabhyathe ” The Holy Spirit of the God cannot be reached with the eyes, mind or words. Only those who believe that He exists and says so, will be reaching Him. (Katham 6:12) “Sa eekshatheeme nu loka Lokaa Paalaanusruja ithi Sodbhaaya eva purusham Samudruthya moorchayaayt” After the creation of the Firmament, Earth and Waters, the Holy Spirit of the God thought like this. “I have created all the Worlds. For them I should create a protector (Savior). With this intention, the Holy Spirit created a Person from His own self. (Ithareyopanishad 1. 1:3) “Hiranyagarbha: samavarthaagre Bhuuthasya jaatha: pathireka aaseeth Sadaadhaara Prudhwivim dyaamuthemam Kasmai devaaya havisha vidhemam.” In the beginning, God and his supreme spirit alone existed. From the supreme Spirit of the God proceeded Hiranya Garbha, alias Prajapathy, the first born of the God in the form of light. As soon as born, he became the savior of all the worlds. RgVeda X:121:1 “Thasmaad virraada jaayatha viraajo adhi purusha: Sjaatho athyarichyatha Paschaad bhoomimadhopura:” From that male the universe came into being. From that body of the universe came the omnipresent Person. That Person thus became manifest, adopted various forms and character and created the earth and other planets along with the creatures to live in them. (Rigveda X:90:5) “Purusha evedam sarvam Yadbhutham yachabhavyam Uthaamruthathwasya esaana Ya daannenathirohathi” This man, the first born of the God is all that was, all that is and all that has to be. And he comes to this world to give recompense to everybody as per his deeds. (Rigveda X:90:2) “Tham yajnam barhishi proukshan Purusham jaathamagratha Thena deva ayajantha Sadhya rushayaschaye” This man, the first born of the God, was tied to a wooden sacrificial post and the gods and the Kings along the seers performed the sacrifice ‘Purushasookta’ Rigveda X:90:7 “Thamevam Vidwanamruthaiha bhavathy Nanya pandha ayanaya vidyathe” This (sacrifice) is the only way for redemption and liberation of mankind. Those meditate and attain this man, believe in heart and chant with the lips, get liberated in this world itself and there is no other way for salvation too Yajurveda XXXI:18, Rigveda X:90:16.

Yes. Causeless mercy The readers of my threads may find it interesting that I too battled fundamentalist "christians" on a daily basis in the late 70s. I had to because they condemned me and my entire family to hell as often. But then while visiting an authentic monestary where "Christian" monks take vows of silence (for life), I realized that I was rejecting Jesus Christ because I wanted no affiliation with these bogus "christians". So I just decided to surrender to Jesus in spite of the ignorant who claim Him as their own because I was only rejecting Him because of these "so called" Christians. Then my heart and eyes started to open. "Seek and ye shall find" as He said. As for me, I hope to be an authentic seeker and I know there are those on this forum who also aspire the same. To seek the feet of Krsna with authentic humility and loving worship. For me, I approach the Son, by taking the shelter of Divine Mother, otherwise there is no other way I can stay with Him. And to worship the Father Krsna, I can only go to His feet by His Son Jesus. There is no other way for me to go. "He who constantly rules the world is verily the cause of bondage and Liberation. Established in His own glory, He is the Immortal, the Embodiment of Consciousness, the omnipresent Protector of the universe. There is no one else able to rule it." - Svetasvatara Upanishad - 5:17 "If these truths have been told to a high-minded person who feels the highest devotion for God and for his guru as for God, then they will surely shine forth as inner experiences-then, indeed, they will shine forth." - Svetasvatara Upanishad - 5:23

A Pastor and his community of believers have been humiliated and beaten up for refusing to partake in the meat offered to a Hindu goddess near Nirmal in Andhra Pradesh. The residents of Krishnaraopet, a Lambadi tanda, near Nirmal in Adilabad district of Andhra Pradesh, had organised a puja on Dasara on 21 October 2007 in which they scarified a goat to goddess Durga. While distributing the meat among the devotees, they also offered a share to Pastor Bikku Lal and some of his Christian believers. When they refused to accept, the organisers of the puja started to manhandle them. The Pastor and other victims approached the police station at Mamidala to file a complaint against the attackers. Even at the police station, some sympathisers of the attackers started to abuse the Pastor and other believers. They were joined by Sub Inspector Jairaju who openly supported the attackers. Since there was no help from the police, the Pastor and the believers returned to the tanda where the attackers indulged in manhandling them, including tearing up of their clothes. They also insulted them, making fun of the Christian faith. Then the Pastor sought the help of David and Rev Prabhu Das, All India Christian Council leaders from Adilabad. They approached the police officers concerned and brought the matter to the notice of the Superintendent of Police in Adilabad. Upon this, the local police filed a FIR against the attackers. source: http://indianchristians.in/news/content/view/1655/45/

26th October 2007 Five Franciscan Clarists Nuns Attacked in Indore , Madhya Pradesh Bhopal : A group of people wearing khaki shorts and white shirts with sticks barged into Mr. Anil ‘s house. The sisters along with people were praying in the house of Mr. Anil who is a catholic and driver of the Franciscan clarist sisters. The incident took place at around 8.30 pm. A mob allegedly lead by Mr. Mehra, Mr. Shivcharan and Manju began to beat them falsely accusing them of attempt to convert. The incident took place at shukliya ,15 kilometers away from Nanda Nagar Indore city in Madhya Pradesh. The sisters were reached back to the hospital with the help of district collector of Indore. The sisters who were beaten are Srs. Jincy (4o), Sr. Sayujia (27), Sr. Pavitra (26), Sr. Sweta (26) and Sr. Anna Maria (27). All of them are injured, the condition of Sr. Jincy is said to be serious with head injuries. She is still in the hospital. Shukliya area comes under the Banganga police station. The Police refused to file FIR till 7 pm in the evening on 26th October. The Additional S.P and CSP Mr. Parasor said to have threatened the Christians of dare consequences of filing the FIR. By evening around 6 pm Fr. Joseph Vallasery informed the Regional Public Relations Office , Bhopal, of the worsening situation in Indore. He said, “Due to Global Industrial Meet no police officer or any senior officer is ready to listen to any thing, even the media refused to cover the news from Indore sighting this.” After discussions with Archbishop Dr. Leo Cornelio, Chairman, Catholic Bishops Council of Madhya Pradesh and Chattisgarh, Fr. Anand Muttungal, Regional Public Relations Officer & Spokesperson, spoke over the phone to Shri. A R Pawar IPS, Director General of Police, Madhya Pradesh, about the dawn to dusk hunger strike that church plans for 27th October in Indore which is also the day of the Global investors meet in protest against the inaction of the police and their refusal to file FIR.” The DGP assured immediate action and registration of the FIR. Around 8 pm the DIG and SP Indore spoke to us and assured us of immediate action. They also requested to withdraw the hunger strike planned for 27th October. Police immediately sprang in to action. Taking into consideration of the larger interest of Madhya Pradesh in terms development expected through Global Industrial Meet , Catholic Church of Madhya Pradesh differed the date to 28th October 2007. We request you all to keep us in your prayers. Fr. Anand Muttungal PRO & Spokesperson Catholic Church, M.P & C.G

Who is Christian? An institution or the saints genuinely inspired by Jesus Lila? How about these "Christians" " Kurisumala Ashram is a community of spiritual seekers who have become one in the spirit. The spiritual light of Kurisumala is the Acharya, the leader of seekers. The history of Kurisumala Ashram is the history of Acharya. It was in 1955 that John, at baptism, a Belgian by birth, but brother Francis as a Cistercian monk, and an Indian citizen since 1968, reached Kerala. He was prompted by an inner call, a call to a new life. He had travelled all over India to have a direct knowledge and experience of Her people. He felt, as by touch, the spiritual nature of India through learning, travelling and spiritual seeking. He visited and stayed in most of the great Ahrams of India. In 1950, Abbe J. Monchanin (Swami Parama Arubi Ananda), a French missionary priest and H. Le Saux(Swami Abhishiktananda), a Benedictine monk, had founded the Christian way of life on the bank of river Kaveri, near Trichy (Tiruchirappally). Saccidananda Ashram, Shantivanam, was a Christian Ashram, based on Indian spiritual tradition. Br.Francis joined them and studied with them for a long time. He was specially interested in the Ashram life-style. John had come under the influence of Mahatma Gandhi when he was studying in London in1931. Gandhiji who had come for the Round Table Conference of the British Dominions had been contemptously spoken of as a half-naked fakir, yet it was in his simple Inidan dress that he led the delegates into Bucckingham Palace for an audience with Queen Mary. The nobility of his character and the simplicity of his life deeply touched John's heart. This influence promoted John to study the ancient culture of India to which he was from now on looking as to the land of Promise for him. It was in 1955, after clebrating Chritmas night in a small village at the fiitgukks if tge mountains, that Zacharias Mar Athanasios, Bishop of Tiruvalla, a Syrian Catholic Church, invited Fr. Francis to make a monastic foundation in his diocese. It was therefore quite procidential that a few months later a gift of 88 acres of virgin land, in the Sahya Mountains was offered to him by Shri. K.V. Thomas Pottenkulam. Fr. Francis was then still alone but there was no delay in the fulfilment of his dream. Soon an English Benedictine monk offered to help him and, when they had settled on the land and built a small monastery for some twenty monks, in spite of the isolation and quasi-inaccessibility of the place, within three years, the community counted 15 members. At present they are 20; 16 'sannyasis', 1 'brahmachari' and 3 'sadhkas'. Acharya does not wish the number of members to exceed twenty. Their life is dedication to God and neighbour. They ignore their own likes and dislikes. Five of them are priests. Ordination is given only when a priest is needed for Holy Eucharist and other sacramental ministries. He who is to receive ordination is selected by Acharya. They depart form their house and family for ever, there are no official home visits, but their families come to visit them at the ashram. Acharya was not interested to develop the community into a non astic order. It is so, that the number of members is restricted. Several 'sannyasis' founded Ashrams in other parts of Kerala, in Tamil Nadu and Karanataka, some who were members of this Asharam joined the Missionaries of Charity of Mother Teresa, working in leprosy colonies and homes for mentally handicapped. But, with a view to assure the future of the community they sought affiliation with Acharaya's former monstic order and were officially incorporated in the order od the Cistercians of the Strict Observance on May 24, 1988." Do you think Krsna does not like them because they study Bible? http://www.vagamon.com/kurisumala/kurisumala.htm It is interesting to know the day to day life of the Asharam. They join meditation and devotion, study and service in life. A day is divided almost equally in hours for prayer, study, work and rest. Prayer starts at 4.00 a.m. in the morning. As was common in the early monastic tradition they maintain the spirit of prayer in the various works of the day. Prayer with the Harp of the Spirit, in 4 vols., is their main prayer book. Immersed in asceticim and prayer for 25 years Acharya translated this from the Syriac Penqitho of Mosal in the Anthiochen liturgical tradition. Satsang, in the evening is a common feature in Indian Ashrams long practised at Krisumala. This is an ooccasion for a, monks and guests, to join more freely in bhajans and spiritual songs. The traditional Upasana meditation, consisting in sravana, the inner listening, manana, the active reflcetion, and nididhasana, the contemplative concentraction is also used. The Sadhakas who recite all the day, Om Shri Yesu Bhagavate Namah (I bow before you, Jesus) in their heart and on their lips, pray to that beloved : Om, Lokah Samastha, Sukhino Bhavantu', (Om, May all the world be happy!). The formation of the sadhakas takes place in the community with the help of the experienced senior members. ASHRAM TIME - TABLE 04.00-05.00 Night Vigil, Meditation 05.00-06-00 Yoga, Bible Reading, Reflection 06.00-06.45 Eucharistic Celebration On Sundays and Feasts at 10.00 07.00 Breakfast 07.30-08.30 Meditative Reading, Study 08.30-10.45 'Bread-Labour' 11.00 Study, Spiritual Reading 12.00 Mid-day Prayer, Meal, Rest 02.15 Prayer, Sundays and Feasts 02.30 03.00 Tea "Bread-Labour" 05.30 Bath, Study, Reading 06.30 Evening Prayer, Meditation, Supper 08.00 Satsangh 08.30 Night Prayer, Retiring

Scholars agree that the book of Moses is written by at least 5 distinct authors. It is interesting to note that the sacrifices of Melchisadek as recorded in these books is written in a style completely foreign to the rest of the 5 books of Moses. Also intereting is that Melchisadek's sacrifice was "vegetarian" i.e. wine/grapes and bread. So I think the proper perspective on Bible study is that it can only be properly understood in CONTEXT of Vedic teachings. We should also "look" to allegory in the bible, for example, a "house" or a "tree" is often a reference to the human being. And a child is often a reference to an "offspring" of a virtue or vice. Hence the offspring (child) of greed, should be killed just as greed needs to be killed. Some believe that the bible was written in allegory (parables) to punish the prideful. So let's not be as prideful as bible bangers .. maybe we can extract or take only the nectar and enlighten those with less understanding. Peace, Her Servant and yours.

Smiley Prabhu, Studying the bible under whose guidance? We should understand that in each tradition and culture, we have those in the mode of passion, darkness or goodness. All are worshipping God even if unconsciously. We particularly see this in context of proper sacrifice offered to Him, the Supreme Lord. Those in ignorance are offering even self sacrifice as in suicide bombing. Those in passion often offer money but carry on their lives steeped in passionate activites. Those in goodness are actually offering correctly. We must not become a fundamentalist to "spite" fundamentalists. For example, Isaiah 2 : 2And it hath come to pass, In the latter end of the days, Established is the mount of Jehovah's house, Above the top of the mounts, And it hath been lifted up above the heights, And flowed unto it have all the nations. 3And gone have many peoples and said, `Come, and we go up unto the mount of Jehovah, Unto the house of the God of Jacob, And He doth teach us of His ways, And we walk in His paths, For from Zion goeth forth a law, And a word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. 4And He hath judged between the nations, And hath given a decision to many peoples, And they have beat their swords to ploughshares, And their spears to pruning-hooks, Nation doth not lift up sword unto nation, Nor do they learn any more -- war. 5O house of Jacob, come, And we walk in the light of Jehovah.' 6For Thou hast left Thy people, the house of Jacob. For they have been filled from the east, And [are] sorcerers like the Philistines, And with the children of strangers strike hands. 7And its land is full of silver and gold, And there is no end to its treasures, And its land is full of horses, And there is no end to its chariots, 8And its land is full of idols, To the work of its hands it boweth itself, To that which its fingers have made, 9And the low boweth down, and the high is humbled, And Thou acceptest them not. 10Enter into a rock, and be hidden in dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency. 11The haughty eyes of man have been humbled, And bowed down hath been the loftiness of men, And set on high hath Jehovah alone been in that day. 12For a day [is] to Jehovah of Hosts, For every proud and high one, And for every lifted up and low one, 13And for all cedars of Lebanon, The high and the exalted ones, And for all oaks of Bashan, 14And for all the high mountains, And for all the exalted heights, 15And for every high tower, And for every fenced wall, 16And for all ships of Tarshish, And for all desirable pictures. 17And bowed down hath been the haughtiness of man, And humbled the loftiness of men, And set on high hath Jehovah alone been in that day. 18And the idols -- they completely pass away. 19And [men] have entered into caverns of rocks, And into caves of dust, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth. 20In that day doth man cast his idols of silver, And his idols of gold, That they have made for him to worship, To moles, and to bats, 21To enter into cavities of the rocks, And into clefts of the high places, Because of the fear of Jehovah, And because of the honour of His excellency, In His rising to terrify the earth. 22Cease for you from man, Whose breath [is] in his nostrils, For -- in what is he esteemed? The above verse in NOT actually a Vengeful God but one who is Mercy. Mercy because He promises to shatter and destroy (mayavadi) self pride. Also, there is much allegory used in the Bible. It CAN be studied as a vedic text, .. but whether in the mode of goodness, passion, or darkness is based on the condition of the students heart.

Well, if you are pointing your arguments at fundamentalists, they I am sure would be happy to defend everything in the Old Testament. But I think if you are trying to discredit an entire body of devotional tradition (Jewish and Christian) by pointing out the "crazy" things in the bible, you are wasting precious devotional time. Why? The same can be done by bible thumpers. Vedantists hold that all the Vedas too are sacred, including Yajurveda which details the Ashvamedha sacrifice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yajurveda The Vedic sacrifice The Ashvamedha could only be conducted by a king (r?j?). Its object was the acquisition of power and glory, the sovereignty over neighbouring provinces, and general prosperity of the kingdom. The horse to be sacrificed must be a stallion, more than 24, but less than 100 years old. The horse is sprinkled with water, and the Adhvaryu and the sacrificer whisper mantras into its ear. Anyone who should stop the horse is ritually cursed, and a dog is killed symbolic of the punishment for the sinners. The horse is then set loose towards the North-East, to roam around wherever it chooses, for the period of one year (or half a year, according to some commentators). The horse is associated with the Sun, and its yearly course. If the horse wanders into neighbouring provinces hostile to the sacrificer, they must be subjugated. The wandering horse is attended by a hundred young men, sons of princes or high court officials, charged with guarding the horse from all dangers and inconvenience. During the absence of the horse, an uninterrupted series of ceremonies is performed in the sacrificer's home. After the return of the horse, more ceremonies are performed. The horse is yoked to a gilded chariot, together with three other horses, and RV 1.6.1,2 (YV VSM 23.5,6) is recited. The horse is then driven into water and bathed. After this, it is anointed with ghee by the chief queen and two other royal consorts. The chief queen anoints the fore-quarters, and the others the barrel and the hind-quarters. They also embellish the horse's head, neck, and tail with golden ornaments. The sacrificer offers the horse the remains of the night's oblation of grain. After this, the horse, a hornless he-goat, a wild ox (go-mrga, Bos gavaeus) are bound to sacrificial stakes near the fire, and seventeen other animals are attached to the horse. A great number of animals, both tame and wild, are tied to other stakes, according to a commentator 609 in total (YV VSM 24 consists of an exact enumeration). Then the horse is slaughtered (YV VSM 23.15, tr. Griffith) Steed, from thy body, of thyself, sacrifice and accept thyself. Thy greatness can be gained by none but thee. The chief queen ritually calls on the king's fellow wives for pity. The queens walk around the dead horse reciting mantras. The chief queen then has to mimic copulation with the dead horse, while the other queens ritually utter obscenities. On the next morning, the priests raise the queen from the place where she has spent the night with the horse. With the Dadhikra verse (RV 4.39.6, YV VSM 23.32), a verse used as a purifier after obscene language. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha

Every person-ality of the Lord is revealed to devotees in Nama Rupa. In this revelation too is the devotees real identity, i.e. relationship with the Lord. So if the Lord grants Shiva nama rupa revelation you will also understand yourself (self realization) in relationship. Each Person of the Lord is unique, i.e. simultaneously one and different with other forms. So to is each devotee God given realization of His form. Specifically, that there will simultaneous and oneness difference of the Lord in His revealed form and the devotee's realization of himself in relationship with Him.

Then you are saying that Srila Prabhupada is not an authority on Bible or Jesus. This I can agree with. However, this means that everything he ever "wrote or said" about Jesus must be a forgery purveyed by antichrist ISKCON devotees and BBT. If your statement is true that must be fact if indeed Srila Prabhupada knew nothing of Bible, because if he is "thoroughly honest" he could not make ANY comment about something of which he had no familiarity. Thank you Guruvani for this clarification. There can be NO Vaisnava authority on Bible and Jesus without serious study of the New and Old Testament. Since you do not study either, this means that you of course are not an authority and will further remain silent at the Holy Name of Jesus as you admittedly profess rejection of study of any account of Him.

Blessed be the Lord Narasimha, destroyer of demons and God haters. "HARE KRISHNA! SRI SRI GURU AND GAURANGA KI JAYA! ON THE LEFT IS ONE OF THE SCORES OF JEWISH-RELATED AND PROTO-CATHOLIC ICONS THAT I COMPARED WITH VAISHNAVA AND PURE LAND BUDDHIST ICONS IN MY INTERDISCIPLINARY MASTER'S DEGREE PROJECT. ON THE RIGHT IS A NARA HARI RUPA FROM SILPA SHASTRA FOR COMPARISON. THEIR JEWISH AND VAISHNAVA NAMES ARYEH AND HARYEH ARE EVEN RELATED. THEY ARE BOTH ASSOCIATED WITH THE WRATHFUL FORM OF THE LORD ELI / HARI AS TIME. ONE IS THE “LION OF JUDAH” AND THE OTHER IS THE LION OF THE YADUS, THE WRATHFUL FORM OF HARI / ELI AS YHVH TZABAOTH IN EXODUS! IN EXODUS (IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE AND JEWISH SCRIPTURES), THE WRATHFUL FORM OF ELI (HARI) AS YAHU TZABAOTH, THE LION OF JUDAH, INTERVENES BETWEEN THE FORCES OF THE PHARAOH AND THE MIXED MULTITUDE OF DEVOTEES LEAVING EGYPT. LIKE SRI KRISHNA'S WRATHFUL FORM IN THE GITA, HE IS REMEMBERED IN THE WESTERN TRADITIONS AS THE LORD OF TIME, DEVOURING THE WORLDS! ONE OF NARA HARI'S NAMES IS KALAH! IN THE GITA, SRI KRISHNA SAYS “KALO SMI.” “TIME I AM, DESTROYER OF THE WORLDS.” THE LION HEADED FORM OF ELI / HARI AS TIME (SEARCH ART HISTORY REFERENCES FOR "LEONTOCEPHALOS TIME," CHRONUS, SATURNUS, ZERVAN, APADAMEK, ETC.) WAS WORSHIPED THROUGHOUT THE ANCIENT WORLD. I HAVE SEEN SCORES OF NARAHARI MURTIS FROM THE MEDITERRANEAN AND OTHER NON-INDIAN AREAS, IN MUSEUM AND OTHER ANTIQUITY COLLECTIONS. DO NOT CONFUSE THE LATE ASTROLOGICAL ASSOCIATION OF SATURN THE PLANET, WITH THE EARLIER WORSHIP OF JUPITER SATURNUS AS TIME. IN WESTERN MYTHOLOGY, ALL THAT IS LEFT OF THE GITA'S THEOPHANY OF KRISHNA KALAH (TIME) DEVOURING THE COSMOS IS THE LATE MYTH OF SATURN / CHRONUS (TIME) DEVOURING HIS CHILDREN." - The above excerpt is taken from B.A. Goswamipost at: http://www.saragrahi.org/Header%20Links/Articles%20By%20Author/Bhakti%20Anand%20Goswami/936%20Haryeh%20as%20Aryeh%20Yahu%20Tzabaoth,%20The%20Lion%20of%20Judah.htm

here is an interesting article I found on the net: The Bible as Veda Genesis/Janus/Ganesha/Gnosis by Bhakti Ananda Goswami Hare Krishna ! Sri Sri guru and Gauranga Ki Jaya ! I have studied the Old Testament in both the Hebrew and the Greek (Septuagint and Apocrypha), and can tell you that these are both Krishna Balarama (Vishnu) centric Vaishnava texts, and Shaivite-related texts. The 'Jewish' scripture in either form (Hebrew or Greek) is absolutely a Vaishnava record, with additional strong Shaivite associations. In fact the very word for God's revealed knowledge in the Hebrew is Yeda / Yada and in the Greek is Oida. This is Veda ! Just as the supreme Deity's names Yahu / Yeshi and Yishma in Hebrew are Vasu and Vishnu in Sanskrit, Yeda is Veda. Because the Hebrew characters for yod and vau (y and v) are nearly identical, and there was a confounding of the Phoenician and archaic Greek letters for y and v, ancient Hebrew and Greek y and v words were often confounded. The soft 'y' and 'v' could also yield to a 'u' (or double-u - ‘w’) sound, or initial vowel, thus becoming Oida or Eido etc. The Jewish ('Old') Testament Yeda / Oida tradition is continued in the Christian New Testament where Eli-Yahu / Hari-Vasu God's knowledge is again called Oida / Eido ( the English word 'idea' is from Oida / Eido) hundreds of times. Together the yd / Oida word is used for knowledge, especially what is directly perceived or seen, over 900 times in the Hebrew and Greek Bible. This word is also specifically used in reference to God's self-revelation. In fact, like Sri Krishna’s name Vedayah, the Jewish Deity is also called Yedayah ! So when Sri Krishna says "by all the Vedas I am to be known" and that he is the knower of the Vedas, it is clear that this includes the Biblical tradition of Yeda / Oida as well. This ‘vd’ root for directly revealed or perceived knowledge has come through into modern English some very interesting ways. For example: video (fun to compare with vidya), vision, witness (one who has seen), vista, visual, visible, id-ol ( from id-latria or adoration of what is seen, a misreading of id-latria where id means 'self' , thus the properly condemned 'idolatry' / id-latria is idio-try or 'self adoration'), idea, ideal (what is seen), wise, wizard, wisdom, wit, witty, unwitting, and guise. There are scores of related words in other languages. Knowledge, Genesis, and Ganesha The other Sanskrit-related Greek Biblical word for knowledge is related to the root of the word 'knowledge' itself. ‘Know’ is related the Greek ‘Gnosis’ and the Sanskrit ‘jnan’. The ancient root jn, gn, kn had several meanings. Prominently, two meanings were associated with knowing and beginning. The Greeks called the first book of the Bible 'Genesis', because it told the story of the beginning. This is the superficial common understanding. 35 years ago I began a word-by-word analysis of the Bible in both Hebrew and Greek. In the Greek I began with the title of the first book 'Genesis' and soon discovered that there was another reason that this title is highly significant. Who is associated with holy scholarship and the recording of the Vedas? It is Ganesha. The worship of Janus / Ganesha / Gana-pati as the 'patron' of all beginnings and endeavors was very prominent among the ancient Mediterranean Vaishnavas. At Rome the sanctuary of Janus was associated with Mars, just as Ganesha is associated with Maru gan among the Shaivites. The rites of Ian / Janus were similar to those of Ganesha; he was even especially offered sweets like Ganesha ! Janus was the protector of all beginnings, and doors, gates, thresholds, etc. The word jamn / jamb, as in door jamb, is therefore not from gamb, but is rather from doorways being sacred to Janus / Ganesha. Janus has three faces. One sees all the past, one sees all the future, and one looks right at you in the present. Thus he is tri-lok-atma, the Lord of past, present and future. A loka is a locus or location, so he is the Lord, the soul / atma or self of the tri lokas or three worlds or realms. Ganesha's three faces see past present and future. There are various stories throughout the ancient world explaining Ganesha's change of heads, different heads, or multiple heads. Like Brahma, Ganesha is associated with the Vedas, all Divine revelation and jnan, so like Brahma, he is revealed with many heads in different traditions. His worship on thresholds like doorways extends to the astrological and seasonal changes / thresholds of time, and to life-changing personal and collective events. In ancient Rome, during times of war, the door of the temple of Janus was kept perpetually open, to invite the new hope, a new beginning of peace back into the city. The month of January is named for Janus, who is invoked to bless the beginning of every year with peace and prosperity. The festival of Janus has now become a global event with the popular pan-cultural 'new years' celebrations world-wide derived from the Roman calendar. Even the Chinese, who use an entirely different calendar, celebrated the arrival of January 1st in a huge way this year. This reveals the deep attraction of the festival for all kinds and classes of humanity. Ganesha and Gnosis / Knowledge Gana / jana in Sanskrit has the same meaning as in the Greek word ‘gene’. There is a pun in the European root ‘gen’, between the meaning found in ‘generation’ and ‘Genesis’, and that meaning of ‘gen’ related to Gnosis, or knowledge. So the connection of Ganapati or Ganesha to Gnosis or jnana-yoga, the path of knowledge and books, is clear. To this day Ganesha is invoked at the beginning of one's lifetime or daily studies. Ganesha is Gnosis. When they open the scriptures, students and masters alike pray to Ganesha before beginning their labors. As Gan-eshvara, he is gen, jnan, Gnosis, know-ing personified, the very being and spirit of knowledge or jnan. These Holy Name puns are not to be overlooked or taken lightly, for there is great, profound revelatory depth in the Names of God. Each Holy Name is a priceless self-revelation of the Divine ! Language properly understood and respectfully approached is a treasure-trove of the Holy Names, and revelatory truth. We must recover the sacrality of language, and restore sacred meaning where it has been lost. This is consciousness-raising, to re-consecrate our speech (and thus our thought) to God ! Ganesha / Gnosis is the patron of scribes and scholars ! Gana-eshvara, Ganesha is associated with generation and the beginning of all things and peoples. Thus it is no accident or coincidence that the Greeks used the word 'Genesis' for the first book of the Bible. Again it is important to note Ganesha's universality. His icon is found on the altars of both Vishnu and Shiva. He is worshiped by the Shakti worshipers as the beloved son of Parvati, and in the Skanda-Murugan tradition he has a prominent place. Later I hope that I will get the chance to describe his worship in the Mediterranean and Levant. Ganesha and Genesis If someone wants to claim that there was no religious association in the Greek mind of a 'Deity' or spirit with 'Genesis', then they will be denying the most basic fact of Greek religion, namely that everything concrete or abstract had a Deity, spirit, or being associated with it. There was a masculine and feminine pair, a patron and patroness, or Theos and Thea, Deva and Devi associated with everything. Thus the Graces, Charities, Muses, love, time, war, health, river nyads, trees, cities, order, peace; absolutely everything in Greek religion was 'personified' or had its 'idea' or 'spirit' or daemon. So Genesis must also have had, like absolutely everything else, a spirit or patron being, or masculine and feminine pair of beings associated with it. Gana-pati is the 'father' or generator patron of all beginnings. 'In the beginning' is the translation of the first words of the Bible (Jewish scriptures). In the Greek Septuagint version, these first words are "en arche.". If the name of the book is supposedly the words 'in the beginning', then why is it not "en arche" ? The root 'gin' in the words be-gin-ning and ori-gin gives a clue. ‘Gin’ in the northern European languages, like ‘gen’ in Greek, is originally associated with the spirit of generation and all beginnings, the Lord's form as Gana-pati or Gan-eshvara / Ganesha. At very ancient Rome he was called Janus. If the Bible in Greek starts with 'en arche' then the book was titled 'Genesis' for another reason. Clearly it was a religious reason associated with the auspicious invocation of Ganesha before any reading, copying, remembrance, or recitation of the word of God. In this way, the entire Greek or Hebrew Oida or Yeda can be commented on word-for-word from the 'Vedic' Vaishnava and Shaivite spiritual-theological and historical perspective. I have been trying to tell 'Hindus' about this for 30 years, but due to some leaders' extreme prejudice against Judaism and Christianity, my work has been suppressed. I have been in fact very badly treated by some 'Hindus' for even being involved with Judaism and Christianity. If anyone is serious to get beyond Aryanist racism to learn the truth about our ancient past as one people of God, please put aside any prejudice against ancient Semitic tradition and read the Bible in the original languages of Greek and Hebrew. Compare what you find with both Vaishnava and Shaivite Sanskrit and Dravidian Bhakti sources, and if you are honest, you will have to admit that there are profound connections on every level. When will we overcome prejudice ? Lord, please save us from our mundane, proud Id-Latria, our blind and blinding self-adoration ! Aspiring to serve all of the devotees of the lord, Bhakti Ananda Goswami reference: http://www.saragrahi.org/Header%20Links/Articles%20By%20Author/Bhakti%20Anand%20Goswami/939%20The%20Bible%20as%20Veda.htm

Love is the cosmic fire brahma weapon. Love is not only an experience but a spiritual ray which can be guided by the devotees. That is why Jesus taught "Love your enemies". Your love of God in your heart of hearts can be directed at whomever and whatever you wish. The relatives that need killed in BG are first within you. (Though they were manifested as persons in Arjuna's time). That is why Jesus said your enemies are members of your own household. (your senses and the demons that possess them) Matt 10:36. - "And a man's enemies shall be they of his own household." Matt 5:44 - "But I say to you, love your enemies" Matt. 12:43-45 - When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation."