HerServant

<<----- (see theist) But I prefer the "theist look"

Many on this forum know me to be a Jesus bhakta and catholic christian but I will attempt to answer objectively. My realization is yes. But I think we have to understand certain perspectives when religion says no. The answer can be complex as many doctrine/theology must be taken into account: advaita dvaita, viveshstek advaita, zen buddhism, pureland buddhism, christian, orthodox christian, judaism etc. The best way for me to personally understand and help have peaceful relations with all faiths is to accept that the Lord is not limited by our understanding of Him. Each faith should admit and will admit that God cannot be grasped or comprehended by humans. Even the saddhus have said that there is something of God that is completely unknowable and can never be known. Each saddhu in each faith has a particular realization and the realization is absolute. But this absolute realization of God cannot contain Him! Faith is more important. It comes by prayer and fasting. These are the same in any religion.

(post removed) you are thinking of a different person the site referred to in post number three is by a woman devotee Priitaa her home page is http://www.geocities.com/priitaa/krishna_conscious_web_sites.htm

Judaism nor Islam accept that God incarnates and descends here. So the idea of avatar is not accepted. There is no personal Deity worship in either religion. Yes .. Jews worshipped Radha Krsna. But you have it wrong about goddess worship being messed up by Christianity. In orthodox Christianity, it all comes down to taking the shelter of Mary. The practice of chanting the name Mary (Mariam, Maryam) can be documented as far back as the 3rd century AD. There is a 2nd century inscription indicating that Mary house was considered a Holy place (same as heaven on earth) Also, early "converts" to Christianity (gentiles) were largely "vaisnavas", i.e, worshippers of Radha Krsna living in cities with vibrant Radha Krsna worship (Rhoda and Korous Helios) Many palestinian synagogues have been found to have worshipped Helios ( google search: "palestine synagogue helios" ) Helios is the greek name for the hebrew Eli (Eloi is feminine version) Linguistic scholars have proven without question, that Helios Eli/Eloi is the same as Sanskrit Hari/Hare This fact is largely accepted among Indian born vaisnava scholars. The early church understood Jesus to be none other than Helios, which indicates that priests (sanyasis) of the Christianity were Jews that understood Eli to be Helios. See: http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=794 Historical evidence reveals that in ancient cities having Helios centric worship, God as "Divine couple" is worshipped. The church teaches that Mary is Mediatrix .. that She is integral, and in some sense equal, to salvation. The cult of Mary that all spiritual gifts given by the Father (Krsna) are only dispensed to devotees by Her. Also, nothing can be given to Krsna directly, but only by Mary. Also it is completely impossible to understand Jesus, unless in the shelter of Mary. Within Mary are the rasas and only by Mary can we encounter the rasas in Her lila and Jesus lila. Christians do not teach spousal rasa directly, but like I've said in the past, I think it impossible to comment on a spousal rasa experience. In fact, I don't believe anyone can experience spousal rasa and live because it can only be experienced in a very high loka (i.e. you could not return to the body after such an experience) If anyone claims to have experienced spousal rasa, but has not externally shown the external sign that Mahaprabhu showed in the temple Jagganath puri, then they are liars. No ordinary mortal can witness it and stay in the body. So nobody can write about it. Finally, not all of even Sri Caitanya's associates experienced spousal rasa, then why is there so much emphasis on this by Vaisnavas? It sounds like pentecostal born again Christians saying "you have to speak in tongues, or be slain in the spirit, etc. .. "

Guruvani, .. I've read a bunch of your posts and I must confess, you are a pretty funny guy. You know this nonsense has nothing to do with religion. The only reason you haven't lumped in eastern religion just yet is because it still remains relatively "pure". But visit India now and you can see the scourges of materialism are degrading religion there at an alarming rate. As materialism ravages our planet, the numbers of orthodox followers of true religion will fade big time. Church attendance for western religions in industrialized nations (US, Euro, etc.) has steadily faded. The under 50 crowd barely attends. So now what do you think will happen in India once (material) education becomes as pervasive in the population as it is in europe and america? Do you think the 500 million or so non brahman castes, once educated in western ideals and doctrines are going to believe that God is a turtle or boar?

But it is interesting that "The Lord's Prayer" starts with describing relationship .. don't ya think? "Our" not "My". "Our" not only being the human family, but the family of Jesus. I think Christian philosophy is definitely more personal. I think what you refer to above is "Christian experience" vs ""Vaisnava experience" I think there is a big bit of irony that that Vaisnavas stress Bhakti, yet have volumes upon volumes PhD material to explain it. That, as in many cases for spiritual science, is a paradox. Also, I should say that WE are the christian experience of contemporary times. and only recently (the last 40 years) have Christians had the gift of Srila Prabhupada's sacrifice. That said, your experience of Jesus and His lila and my experience of His lila are the only "Christian" context we could possibly understand. Regarding philosophy however, Christian philosophy is "possibly" more personal. It lacks the PhD technical terms of contained Vedic literature. For example, Tapas is embodied in persons , e.g. St. John the Baptist If we want to practice austerities, we don't go to a cookbook, but rather seek the intercession of St. John the Baptist. Now if all things are working in vaisnavism, I suppose you could say .. "well St. John is 2000 years back .. " just go find that contemporary "St John" spiritual master and sit at his feet and serve. In that case, I concede .. vaisnavism has the personal edge. thx for the sincere reply as always.

You mean like Iskcon's antichrist teacher's incidents against devotees : USA (VNN) - VNN has received the following letter written to an ISKCON official: (Letter from Swami B.V. Tripurari) September 30, 1997 Dear Bir Krishna Maharaja, Dandavat pranams. Sri Sri Guru Gauranga jayatah. Since we last spoke, I received a copy of a partial transcription of Prithu, your GBC representative here in the Northwest, speaking to Iskcon devotees in Zagreb about my self and my Eugene ashram (Sri Sri Gaura Nityananda Audarya Ashram). After name calling, lies, philosophical distortion, telling devotees to bring my disciples to him to be saved from moral and spiritual degradation, and stressing that only devotees of Iskcon can go back to Godhead, Prithu tells his audience that Iskcon would take great pleasure in cutting off the tongues and heads of my disciples and I. read entire article here: http://www.vnn.org/world/971003-1085/index.html

I am sorry! In atonement, I will start a "Hairy Krishna martyrs" web site. That will be my Christian good will gesture! We should also make the long list of Jesus devotees martyrs exiled from Iskcon who were as good as dead upon professing their faith in Jesus.

Like GBC bogus edits of Prabhupada's words on Jesus. He never said He is Sakti Avesya avatar in public, he said HE is Isvara! Proof: Prabhupada always used Scripture as authority. There is no reference in ANY bonafide Vedic scripture of Sakti Avesya Avatar. Prabhupada would not have made up NEW terms to describe an Avatar.

You said: Are you saying your reference to "slaughter" above does not refer to the body? Ohhh .. I understand now. .. you mean how Christians slaughter foolish arguments and speculations of non Christians .

So your scholarly vaisnava response is that relationship is with reference to the physical body.

Jesus taught His disciples and hence His parampara/sampradaya to pray: "Our Father (Abba i.e. Daddy) , who are in heaven .... " The Vaisnava acharyas taught to pray with maha mantra: "Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna .. " What is a more personal way to call God: Daddy or Krsna ?

Hi The classic "Vaisnava / ISKCON devotee" attack on me throughout the years has been: "You're speculating .. don't speculate .. you are a speculator" So I read this forum .. and this thread .. No speculation whatsover .. no speculation to be found here HS and yours

Proving the existence of God is easy. How can you accept the proof? What limited science shall we use to prove the unlimited? First you reject the transcendental sciences (true religion) which have the formulas for proving. But rather you want limited human science perhaps .. or strings of wordplay (philosophical logic). Perhaps you want contemporary physics? I can prove singularities in wave particle duality momentum distributions transcend the boundaries of time and space and hence, space and time cannot be bounded (infinity .. no beginning, no end) ? But what would that prove to you? Do you want fancy words to prove or disprove He who is inside and outside of time? He who is omnipresent, omniscient, transcendent, etc) Rather than me prove God exists, why don't you disprove the existence of: faith "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen" - Hebrews 11:1 Faith is not blind belief .. to the faithful, faith is known to be beyond speculative powers of reason.

Praise and Glory to the Lord God Almighty. The human beings on this planet have spiritual intelligence (perception) covered by the cloud of sin. This fact is pointed out in the scriptures in many places. See BG Chapter 2:60 - 70 as an example. That is, our senses do not perceive at full God given capacity while under the influence and covering of sin. When the Lord of Lords appears as the Kalki avatar He will obliterate at once, the cloud of darkness covering the senses. By His omnipresent potency everyone, sinner and saint alike, will have their senses purified by the effulgent ray of Love emanating from His Sacred Heart. The Son of Visnu Yas'aa, the Light of the World, will shine into the consciousness of every being on every spiritual planet, including the most fallen souls of the earth planet. Every living entity in the entire cosmic manifestation will see Him instantly and simultaneously. HS and yours.

Use of the Internet, finances the mercedes driving, speedboat racing womanizing atomic, molecular physicists and engineers who created it.

Guruvani .. please share with us how you claim the following: I hope you are not trusting burger headed scientists for your claim. If so, you should cleanse your colon immediately.

The "church" is under attack post JP II. Study JP II and we see, big time, the embodiment of "give up all varieties of religion" mood. JP II's open embrace is very big. Look at this fundamentalist catholic site attacking his mission .. unity in diversity. Browse around the links on this right wing catholic site and you will see a rather amazing testimony. You will also appreciate that Our Lady of Fatima is apparently the focal point of Our Lady's mission to bring her children together. It looks like the Holy Father has instructions from Mary to unite the church in the embrace of diversity. Even impersonalists can be embraced because the Person of God the Persons of the Holy Trinity, we cannot lose and He will awaken them in our loving embrace. It seems that Our Lady has ordained that the mission of the Catholic church is just that .. to become truly catholic "universal". Of course there will be a big battle between christian (including catholic) fundamentalists and devotees of all sides, as this site (a fundamentalist one) shows. Hmmm .. We also have this prophecy within the Marian movement of the "Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary". It is said that she promises and era (1000 years or 10000 years I think) of Peace .. To bring this about, we are called to pray the rosary. The pope was shot on May 13th, feast of Our Lady of Fatima. There is also the "secret of Fatima" that no one really knows about. He consecrated himself to her and his mantra of consecration to her was Totus Tuus. Also Muslims revere Mary! http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/spirituality/mary-worship.htm She is our shelter! Amen. Om. Peace.

Turn the other cheek .. its the Jiu Jitsu move of Love!!!

Good Friday is spent quietly. I try to maintain a spiritual focus around the house. My daughter and I watched an excellent movie on the life of John Paul II. ( http://www.cbs.com/specials/pope/ ) . Today was the first time I'd seen it and I'd have to recommend it to our "transcendental entertainment" list. It is a very interesting movie for any and all. As a family we try to maintain evening rosary (japa) in rememberence of Jesus life in the mysteries. Good Friday is a day of deeper reflection and rememberence of Jesus' passion. I also played "blizzard ball" with my son .. its a game we made up here in midwest .. outdoor basketball in the snow and ice. He won. On Easter we will go to church then visit grandma .. All pretty ordinary activities .. But as I reflect, in the ordinary, even amid chatter, it seems extra quiet today, Good Friday .. ... this is a day of interior silence.

Regarding the sins of the establishment church there are many .. I don't think I have the answers for all the political crap that goes on in organized religion. In fact it shocks me. I ask myself, are some of these people even reading the same scriptures as I? I try my best to look through the flaws and see what is at the heart. .. there is the sattvic and there is the tamasic and everything in between. So when a "by the lettercatholic" disagrees with me .. I shrug and move on ... same for a "vaisnava" that lusts more after arguing every small principle of spiritual life, as opposed to just put intelligence aside and lets love God together by chanting Hare Krsna. The craziness is the same. I have no doubt scriptures were hijacked by unqualified egoist devotees and edited , hacked etc. There are many examples .. the King James Bible threw out Macchabees, Sirach, etc. MANY church fathers refer to the other "Gospels" as sacred, e.g. the Gospel of Thomas .. I don't buy into the demonizing of St Mary Magdelena, she was the first witness of the Resurrection .. There are other very interesting and inspiring books not in the bible. But the Catholic church is NOT a sola scriptura church. We don't say that the Canonized scripture are the ONLY authoritive texts in the church. This is an area that the Church takes huge criticisms from "sola scriptura" protestants. These sola scriptura protestant christians are also VERY Pauline centric in their arguments. The Catholic church rejects that position. So in many ways Mahak prabhu .. " I feel 'ya" .. but I stay in the church because for me, as I've said, the real church is Mary, the saints, and the sacraments. When I walk into any catholic church in the world, it is a definite place of shelter for me .. the politics of the church cannot deny me the maha prasadam Jesus Holy Eucharist .. I hide in the shadows of the saints and cling to them to shelter me from religionists as such, I have been fortunate and have encountered numerous saintly, priests and monks along my journey .. therefore, I am grateful for their shelter. Thanks for your association. Peace peace peace. HerServant and yours.

Thanks Mahak and Sanatan. I am in agreement with Mahak's response on Judas. My viewpoint is slightly different but I believe the same. I take "word made flesh" of John's Gospel as the "formula" by which to understand the Gospels. Therefore, in Jesus' life we can find all vedic knowledge (the Word). Judas indeed plays an important role. Sadly, in the Passion play, he gets to play "greed". But we can see as many sins going on in other disciples. Peter denies Jesus (3 times), others couldn't pray with Him in His most difficult moment (sloth) .. So this is the reason in a previous post, I mentioned that the Passion Play is like Bhagavad Gita 2:63 .. from lust anger, etc... Sin is like a house of cards, or a steep slippery slope .. you can't just make a little slip, without expecting the whole consequence of sin to unfold. So Judas gets to play original sin, something we all have in common with him .. aka greed/envy of God. Greed in Judas' story comes forth in the '30 pieces of silver' exchange for Jesus, and Judas shows envy when he dips in the same bowl as Jesus (he wants the same portion and position as Jesus). Every person on the planet that is sinful starts by "being Judas"... at somepoint, Judas had to engage his senses in material activities, then attachment was formed, then from the attachment lust comes .. ka boom .. the whole house of cards falls down .. and this is portrayed in Jesus Lila. All manner of sin unleashes against Him just like BG 2:62-64. In this regard, then Jesus represents jiva of all of humanity. Jiva's true identity is part and parcel child of God, but greed betrays (judas) pure jiva and pollutes then hands over to anger, clouded judgement, loss of rememberence, etc. (pharisees, pilate,) then bondage (chained to a post and beaten, attached to a cross) and death ensue (crucified). This why we say all of our sins are crucifiying Jesus, and this is why we say He is shelter of all jivas. By His everlasting patience, He suffers along with us. As we move from the last supper to the crucifixion, we see that sin becomes darker and darker. So the passion drama of Jesus lila in one aspect is teaching the effects of sin on the living entity. Just as BG Chapter 2 describes. We also say Jesus bears the sins of the world. This is because this nature of sin is the same in anytime and for any person, that the sin is the same for any person. This is also why we say that if we sin today, we are Judas betraying, Peter denying, disciples fleeing, pharisees spitting and slapping, pilate's indifference, and the scourgers and crucifiers. Now if we look as Jesus in the Divine drama, we also see all the vedic knowledge of spiritual master, .. 'equanimity is yoga', etc. and beyond. Beyond because, the culmination of His sacrifice is His offering of Himself to the Father on behalf of us .. no limits .. as we have seen, He is even rescuing the poor lambs from the slaughter. His heart is so wide open no limits or boundaries can be place on Him. Finally, I must say from my heart of hearts, I could not understand the cross for decades. Why did He have to die? The answer is "for us" because the human heart covered with sin is VERY HARD .. like a boulder. And if we can "look upon Him" in crucified form, and see Him as He Is, childlike and relating to His torturers as relatives He deeply deeply loves .. and seeing the tragedy of those relations not knowing they are murdering their very own "little one" ... then we can be saved .. because our hearts may finally open .. Then we move from the vision of ourselves and to the vision of service of others ... real compassion and real empathy for the suffering human family emerges. Then we can follow our spiritual master ... when everything about our former false ego self is stripped, when we endure with Christ the scourgings of our passions , all troublesome thorns of anxiety and worldly troubles rest upon our head, and carry the cross of human existance in service of to God to assist our fallen, bewildered and entangled human family, then we can be united with Christ and once and for all, our sin will be crucified forever. For the Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born." - Mark 14:21 The above passage often is used to debate the fate of Judas. But here again, Judas is assisting Jesus in His teaching. Judas here clearly shows that he is a devotee like us. He is really remorseful that he traded life with God for sin. And this is what WE do when we fall down .. we are all full of guilt after we sin, then we go running out from the presence of God and "hang ourselves"... So Jesus is telling us, better for us if we don't let "greed" be born because its going to be an ugly fall down and wind up in self lynching. Now the book of Acts indicate that Judas fell down .. so many historian/scholars have debated plenty that his suicide attempt failed! Our guilt hanging of ourselves after falling down too will fail .. the rope will break .. God will call us back again .. we'll get up and try to do better. We look at the saints, and they often related to Judas as sort of an older child in Jesus' family ... that is .. as a child gets older, when he does something wrong.. he runs and hides ... but the younger the child, the most tender child will cry remorsefully right away .. the moment he does something wrong and will run back right away tearful to receive consolation. So lets not hang ourselves for our offenses .. that will certainly punish others around us also .. lets become small and run back right away into the arms of our forgiver. HerServant and yours . Harebol! Jesus Ki Jaya!

Thanks brother. My favorite folks are here in this place. So I have a little different conception than you or Murali, Theist, etc. You all are nice enough to keep me around. Very nice. Well Mahaprabhu is very tolerant and seems to like me just fine,.. Lets just look at Murari's exclusive devotion to Rama, even after Mahaprabhu told him to worship Krsna, he could not. Y'all know that I ain't never giving up Jesus' feet .. never ever ever ever .. So kindly accept my friendship. And no lie, this realization I can share .. I remembered Him in His crucified form .. I can't even describe .. and I tell you true, time stops there and the Crucifixion is Sesa Naga .. I don't know why and I don't know what it means, but He is there .. . I may never understand in technical, scientific terms ... but I know what I witness is impossible to imagine .. unimaginable. As for the servant of Dismas there, I know His Mother's arms are open to him and wanting to embrace and give him Her complete shelter. He does not have to go off in abandonment. May we rise with Him in our glorified true self, sanctified and worthy to be in His company and may He bring us to the feet of Our Father. Hare Krsna! HerServant and yours.

Today, Holy Thursday, the Christian world commemorates the Last Supper of Jesus. Most historians fail to catch the significance of Jesus' "paschal sacrifice" though it is obvious and staring us right in the face. Some consider the priestly ritual of the Catholic religion largely a Pauline invention that propogated after Jesus. This is not a fact. The celebration of the eucharist, (commemoration and rememberence of Jesus Life in the Paschal sacrifice last supper), was instituted by Jesus and developed independent of Paul. The chaldean, and syrian, syro malabar churches had no contact with St. Paul, and in fact the Thomas Christians in India practically had no contact with with the west for 200 years between 52AD and 250AD, yet had a priestly tradition and eucharistic tradition. So Paul cannot be "responsible" for this priestly institution. But rather, prove by history and facts, I will attempt to point out the absolute obvious and leave the rest to the reader. The fact is, Jesus ended the bloodiest sacrificial, innocent bloodshed ritual of religion in history, and in order to end it, He Gave His Holy Life! During Jesus' life on earth, Jewish priestly ritual performed the "sacrifice" of Passover. This consisted of each and every Jewish family being required by Law, to bring an innocent, spotless lamb to the priests to be slaughtered on the eve of Passover. After the slaughter, the flesh of the lamb had to be eaten and the blood had to be used in various ritualized ways. Even Vegetarian Essenes that were Jewish had to comply, and therefore, the Passover "Law" was almost a kind of curse for those practicing ahimsa because it demanded that massive amounts of innocent lamb's blood to be shed. Historical evidence suggests that Passover was a horrific, bloody event, wherein thousands upon thousands of lambs were slain. This event is an unquestionable historical fact, as is the old testament (covenant) scriptures that mandated its practice. On this day, Holy Thursday, Jesus' sacrifice is remembered and His command of remembering Him in the breaking of the bread is celebrated. It is also, the Institution of the core priestly ritual of the Roman communion Catholic, Orthodox, and sacramental protestant (Anglican, Lutheran, etc.) catholic churches. So now to point out the obvious: Jesus was very popular. He could not just be lynched without a very big reason. If the religionist political wing wished to eliminate Jesus from their midst, then they needed a VERY BIG reason. One that could be used against Him to take away His popularity. Therefore, Judas conspired with the establishment to watch Jesus and find this big reason for marginalizing Jesus. There is the reason Judas was looking for! Jesus said "new covenant" !!! That meant Jesus was saying He had the authority to END PASSOVER's ANIMAL SACRIFICE" and replace it with Bread and Wine (fruit of the vine). That is the reason Judas betrayed Him. Jesus ended the Law that required the innocent lambs be slaughtered, and He ended by giving Himself in their place! It is easy to see Judas' reaction: "Now Jesus, this you cannot do! You cannot end thousands of years of tradition. You cannot end the "Law" and establish a new one" This was the straw that broke the camels back. That is why the Church teaches that the bread and wine are the actual Body and Blood of Jesus. The Sacrifice of His Body and His Blood cannot be seperate or indifferent from this moment of uttering the words "this is My Body .. this is My Blood .. of the New Covenant". He Gave His Body and His Blood in the moment He uttered these words as He knew that by His establishing the new covenant Judas would immediately not accept, then hand Him over to be murdered! In other words, He knew by saying the bread was His Body and the wine was His Blood, it would cost His mortal self. Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ .. the Lamb of God! HerServant and yours.