HerServant

Well I guess this topic seems a bit touchy to quite a few folks. As it turns out, this was pretty much opposite what I expected. I expected devotees from east and west to rally around SB 1:3:25 as a passage that bridges both traditions, but it looks like I've got a bunch up folks a bit bummed. Once again... sorry 'bout that .. not my intent .. I am much more interested in mellow mellow mellow love among the human family on this planet that we all share. So I will post one more tidbit of interest (to me) on this topic then leave the thread. First to answer Guest's question: The etymology on Visnu has been done expertly by many contemporary (open minded, non sectarian) scholars. Certainly God the Father. For ya and sa together: Purusha? Is not Purusha expansion of God the Father? hmmm. Next It seems to me that the Hebrew folk worshipped Vasudeva (Visnu) and it can even be proved in the (Catholic) Bible: Below is the Heliodorus column. The column proves that an ancient Greek worshipped Vasudeva. How is it that an ancient Greek could come to worship Vasudeva? As you can see above, Mr. Rosen and Mr. Hebner conclude (to the best of their knowledge) that Heliodorus was 1st westerner to adopt Vedic principles. That is an honest conclusion. But the Hebrew scriptures held sacred by Catholic and Orthodox Christians, indicate that Heliodorus was "converted" by GOD to Vedic principles, when GOD appeared at the Temple of Jerusalem! The description of God seems to be that of Krsna and Baladeva with Kalki! Wow. HerServant and yours.

Dear friends, In this (internet) age we are faced with the inevitable reality that cultural and religious boundaries are changing. In the 1960s His Holiness Srila Prabhupada came to the west on the command of his spiritual master to spread the light of the vedas. Any reasonable person in the west needs to bow down and respect him and listen to his message. As I understand Srila Prabhupada made it known that the BG is to be studied first, then the SB, then only study the CC last. I am a middle aged man, being brought up Catholic in a devotional household. I read for the first time BG As It Is about 10 years ago (~1996) I purchased Srimad Bhagavatam 1st Canto about 8 years ago while visiting an ISKCON temple. I confess my limitations. Apart from you devotees, I sat reading these fabulous perfect Holy Scriptures and my faith in Jesus only increased. Being happy inside, I thought it would be nice to share. The devotees here have been really kind and tolerant of me. Therefore, regarding this thread, if you find it offensive, please accept my apologies. But try to understand, in this internet age, we (all of us), and our future generations will have no choice but to acknowledge that God has spoken to the world ... Just seek out a spiritual master, right? But beforehand, people in general need to investigate. This is seeking. Seek and ye shall find, as Jesus said. The fact is, that the SB came west and I sought. I am merely saying what the scripture means to me. So if there cannot be a discussion on this "coincedence" that the name Yas'aa of SB 1:3:25 is related to the name Yahshua, then I accept it an move on. The Vaisnava community however may wish to note, that to a believer in Jesus, the name Yas'a of SB 1:3:25 can only be affirmation that Yahshua (i.e. Jesus' second coming) will return and is prophesied in the Srimad Bhagavatam! I offer all respects to everyone here. I praise the Lord Krsna, Father of All Living Entities. My manner of worship is to praise the Father Krsna through His Son, Jesus. If I can utter one praise word to the Father in perfect unison with His perfect Son, then I am complete. Please forgive my offenses. Hare Krsna!

How? Could Sri Chaitanya even be minimized by anything? Please answer. I am also curious, has Sri Chaitanya asked for you to come to His defense? I don't see how this thread conflicts in anyway with the glories of Sri Chaitanya.

But .. is there actually such a thing as a comma in sanskrit? I've not see one, but (punctuation) point taken.

Dear Theist, I have not yet studied the life of Haridas Thakur or Nityananda Prabhu. The Vaisnava literatures are so many that I have barely scratched the surface. Also, I want to point out that I am not taking an authoritive position for anyone else. I am merely relating what I observe. As members of this forum have noticed, I don't really care about sectarianism. As soon as a devotee goes down that path, it doesn't take long to get covered with external things. I am also saying to the forum members, I have had no vision or revelation of the Kalki avatar's form and identity. All I am saying, is that WHEN I READ the SB 1:3:25, I IDENTIFIED the name Jesus (Yas'aa). I am relaying that experience to each of you as a point of interest. I don't have any desire that anyone "convert" to a particular set of beliefs about it one way or another. I am not a fundamentalist, and even don't pay much attention to the Book of Revelation in Bible. This at the advice of priests because we don't speculate on the hidden meanings of that scripture. Our job as PEOPLE is to be ready for Kalki. He doesn't care what banner we wear. If He is Jesus .. then Amen. If He is not, and I am following Jesus, then I will beg to run to Kalki's side to serve Him. And if He will not have me, then I accept because I love and trust Him. He knows better than me what to do with me. To say, "I don't accept Kalki and Jesus are the same" is of no consequence to the Lord. But to specifically reject Him or His representative, then Kalki will settle it. And should anyone reject Kalki if He be Jesus on account of Jesus, then Kalki will also settle it. The reality is that this verse SB1:3:25 creates controversy on both sides! Christians will reject SB because it boggles their mind that SB is God's Word! And the portion of ISKCON that are fundies will hate that the name Yas'a appears in SB because then they must bow down to Him and cannot no longer claim themselves equal to Jesus. See .. SB 1:3:25 is a sectarianism buster! Come Lord Kalki son of Visnu Yas'a!

I completely agree with you. The Father can send the Son anytime and for any mission. Would a worthy son ever say he is greater than his father? Yet, the father always wants more for his son than himself. If the Father desires that His Son should carry out the mission of the Kalki avatar, then that is His Will! Also, it is interesting that even this passage references the Son of Visnu! As you know, Sanskrit word play is very common. Like Son of God Jesus .. Son of Vishnu Yas'aa. The Phil 2 quote previously has a greater part than "at the name of Jesus every knee shall bend" .. The whole verse in context says that Jesus renounced His position of "equality" with God the Father. Jesus rejects therefore, the idea of His equality with the Father. Also, it is well known among acharyas that within the hearing of any Holy Name one can hear other Holy Names. It was not my arrangemnt that the name Yas'aa should be included in the Srimad Bhagavatam. Is was not my arrangement that it should be pronounced so identically with Yahshua and it was not my arrangment that the Sanskrit Ya (with Sa) connote Purusha and it was not my arrangement that the meaning of the sanskrit is the same as the Hebrew. The name Yas'aa is there. Sectarianism in not an option. All will be treated accordingly. Yas'aa will not favor Christians or any other sect, but rather His sword will judge by the love of God in each person's heart.

I've found an interesting old thread on this forum debating whether Jesus is Kalki. On the Jesus is Kalki side of the debate, similarities between the mission and appearence of Jesus' second coming and the mission and appearence of the Kalki avatar are referenced. On the opposite side of the debate various objections were raised. While both sides tried to defend their points, neither side referenced the Srimad Bhagavatam. I thought that was strange so I looked up the list of Incarnations in the 1st Canto. In the reading of SB 1:3:25 I observed that the name Jesus (Yas'aa) is there in the verse describing the Kalki avatar. Checking the sanskrit utilization of Yas'aa indicates that this name is a reference to Purusha. The hebrew for Jesus, Yahshua is also based on the same diety name (Ya) and Ya has the same meaning in both languages. Pronouncing the Yas'aa palatial s in Sanskrit makes the pronounciation for Yas'a sound, in my opinion, identical to the name Yahushua, the actual Name of Jesus. I asked a brahmin acquaintance (native of India and student of sanskrit from an early age) about this verse and he told me that the name Kalki is not a name. It is there to indicate the age in which (son of) Vishnu Yas'a appears. In any case, Yas'aa is there in 1:3:25. The name Yas'aa cannot be removed. He is immovable. Hare Krsna. Om Shanti. HerServant and yours.

I will try to answer from my personal perspective and a small bit of official church teaching. The basic position of the church is that we don't pray to saints in place of God, but rather we pray to saints to carry our petitions and prayers to God. To Catholics, devotion to a Saint is analagous to service of a living spiritual master. If one has true devotion to the saint, then one will accept this saint as a patron and follow this saint's footsteps faithfully. At the highest level, we can contact Christ through the saint. In some sense this is kind of a "rasa" teaching, because each saint has a particular flavor that attracts members to their cult. This is particularly true for religious orders (Carmelites, Carthusians, Camaldolese, Franciscans, Salesians, Jesuits, Dominicans, Benedictines, Missionaries of Charity, etc.) in that the founder's (acharya) spirituality and life lay the foundation of spirituality for the order. So in the case of devotion to Mother Teresa, one's personal devotion is particularly styled after her life, and the spirituality in her particular order. Catholics believe Mary is a co-redemtrix and She has holds the position of the "highest saint". While many Catholic theologians (Aquinas) call Mary, "Divine Mother", church theology does not teach that she is equal to the Triune God, only that She is nearest to Him and attracts Him. Marian devotion is widespread across all orders in the church and many orders consider their vocation to "become another Mary". In almost every Catholic church throughout the world therefore, there will be a murti of Mary. Also, very popular are the Holy Family (St. Joseph), and St. Anthony. St. Anthony chanted the name Mary at least 3000 times per day, in addition the prayers required by his spiritual office. His murti always shows him holding the Child Jesus. This is because Jesus would come to him as a child and allow St. Anthony to hold Him in his arms. Therefore, when I pray to St. Anthony, I am hoping to gain his intercession and help in assisting me, to become childlike, innocent, and simple enough to draw near to the tender Child Jesus. "Mary's memories Mary lived with her eyes fixed on Christ, treasuring his every word: “She kept all these things, pondering them in her heart” (Lk 2:19; cf. 2:51). The memories of Jesus, impressed upon her heart, were always with her, leading her to reflect on the various moments of her life at her Son's side. In a way those memories were to be the “rosary” which she recited uninterruptedly throughout her earthly life. Even now, amid the joyful songs of the heavenly Jerusalem, the reasons for her thanksgiving and praise remain unchanged. They inspire her maternal concern for the pilgrim Church, in which she continues to relate her personal account of the Gospel. Mary constantly sets before the faithful the “mysteries” of her Son, with the desire that the contemplation of those mysteries will release all their saving power. In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary." -- ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE , John Paul II From a Vaisnava perspective, I've heard it said that Krsna tries to give to His devotees but they'll take nothing from Him, wanting only to give everything back to Him. So He "tricks" them into getting His Love by way of allowing devotees to give their love to the spiritual masters.

.. hey .. where do I get some fancy clothes?? I am stuck with this poor rag of the body peace! :)

God requires that we have faith in Him. When we experience God we feel the urge share our experience. If someone cannot experience Him identically or similarly, then we are surprised. Sometimes a person who experiences God in a way different than ours will raise an objection about our experience. They may feel the need to defend God, but God does not need our defense as history has shown, this will often to lead to offense. Scripture tells us that if God reveals Himself as Krsna to one, and MahaVisnu to another, their is no conflict between the two realized souls. I read some writings by Jagadguru Swami Sri Bharati Krsna Tirthaji Maharaja, the former pontifical head Sankaracharya of Jagganath Puri in the 1940s and 50s. He was very learned having multiple PhD's in various fields study including the sciences, theology, and mathematics. He made a very interesting observation, as he was schooled in many scriptures of India and the Bible as well. He said "no matter which (religious) path we choose, after careful study, we arrive at faith. That is, in any path, there will be elements or principles, or tenets, that must be accepted on faith. No amount of investigation or study will help us reconcile paradox." Now, faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not. -- Hebrews 11:1 Here, the Holy Scripture teaches us that faith transcends our logic and description, and yet it means the same to all denominations. Therefore, the original question of this thread should be honestly considered by any devotee of any sect. My personal belief is that the nama rupa explanation of Holy Names is the correct one. That is, I believe that the Holy Names (nama) convey/contain the revelation of God's Divine Form (rupa). At the higher level, that the Holy Name is the Divine Form. Name is Form, Form is Name. Names are Personal. Since we have been given so many Holy Names, Krsna, Vasudeva, Bhagavan, Narayana, Mahavisnu, Jesus, Hare, Eloi, Hari, Eli, we can understand all of the mighty revelations of the One Who Is, Ya! So realizing Jesus as YahShua, The One Who Is that Saves, is Seeing God Himself as the Savior. That is Who He Is. Realizing God as Krsna, the All Attractive, is seeing the God of Love attracting Love, realizing God as Ya is seeing God as The omnipresent and omniscient Being, Realizing God as Paramatma is seeing God in our hearts and in the heart of every living entity. This is why, I go to my big brother Jesus and with Him, call God's Name, Abba, "Daddy". Om Shanti, HerServant and yours.

"I must come and disclose the desires of Jesus with regard to your soul: Remember that He did not say: “I am the Flower of the gardens, a carefully tended Rose”; but, “I am the Flower of the fields and the Lily of the valleys.” Well, you must be always as a drop of dew hidden in the heart of this beautiful Lily of the valley. The dew-drop – what could be simpler, what more pure? It is not the child of the clouds; it is born beneath the starry sky, and survives but a night. When the sun darts forth its ardent rays, the delicate pearls adorning each blade of grass quickly pass into the lightest of vapour…. There is the portrait of my little Céline! She is a drop of dew, an offspring of Heaven – her true Home. Through the night of this life she must hide herself in the Field-flower’s golden cup; no eye must discover her abode. Happy dewdrop, known to God alone, think not of the rushing torrents of this world! Envy not even the crystal stream which winds among the meadows. The ripple of its waters is sweet indeed, but it can be heard by creatures. Besides, the Field-flower could never contain it in its cup. One must be so little to draw near to Jesus, and few are the souls that aspire to be little and unknown. "Are not the river and the brook,” they urge, “of more use than a dew-drop? Of what avail is it? Its only purpose is to refresh for one moment some poor little field-flower.” Ah! they little know the true Flower of the field. Did they know Him they would understand better Our Lord’s reproach to Martha. Our Beloved needs neither our brilliant deeds nor our beautiful thoughts. Were He in search of lofty ideas, has He not His Angels, whose knowledge infinitely surpasses that of the greatest genius of earth? Neither intellect nor other talents has He come to seek among us … He has become the Flower of the field to show how much He loves simplicity. The Lily of the valley asks but a single dewdrop, which for one night shall rest in its cup, hidden from all human eyes. But when the shadows shall begin to fade, when the Flower of the field shall have become the Sun of Justice, then the dewdrop – the humble sharer of His exile will rise up to Him as love’s vapour. He will shed on her a ray of His light, and before the whole court of Heaven she will shine eternally like a precious pearl, a dazzling mirror of the Divine Sun" -- St Teresa of the Child Jesus "From the age of three I have never refused our good God anything .. I have never given Him anything but Love and it is with love He repays" -- St. Teresa of the Child Jesus (Carmelite Nun) "Dearest Mother, it seems to me that I am happier than you? I have you for my Mother, and you have no Blessed Virgin to love !?... It is true you are the Mother of Jesus but you have given Him to Me, and He, from the Cross has given you to be our Mother, and thus we are richer than you!? Long ago in your humility you wished to be the little handmaid of the Mother of God; and I poor little creature am not your handmaid but your child! You are the Mother of Jesus and you are also mine!" - St Teresa of the Child Jesus "Titus Brandsma said that the Carmelite vocation is to become another Mary and I think that this sums up our contemplative vocation best of all. She had the most inti.mate relationship with Christ." - from :The Fundamental Elements of Carmelite Spirituality: see http://www.carmelites.ie/Periodicals/citw2000.3.htm

When reading about the rasas (from the Vaisnava sacred literature), it is said that the Madhuraya rasa is the highest stage of realization, and that there are stages of realization, some more advanced than others. There is communion on this point and therefore we agree. It is also clear the Gaudiya has its beatiful and unique teachings (flavors) including Madhurya rasa. We acknowledge, respect, and offer obeisances. There does not directly seem to be something identlcal on the Catholic side. However, Catholic bridal mystic saints communicate that entering the "bridal chamber" is the final stage for our spiritual journey and an experience of intense even "erotic" love for God is present. In fact, the saints that teach on this say that our highest goal is spousal relationship with God. Still the vivid descriptions of the pastimes of the Lord are present in Gaudiya and not directly and similarly there in Christian tradition, and hence beautifully unique to Vaisnavism. The learned Vaisnavas are of the opinion that Madhurya rasa does not exist on the Christian side. We cannot agree. Our opinion is that if Madhurya rasa is Absolute (Universal) Truth, then it must be contained in Jesus Lila. I believe no ordinary person can enter into the fullness of the Mystery of the Annunciation (the effulgent cloud surrounding the bridal affairs of Mary and God) and maintain or stay in the physical body. That is, it could be only by special Mercy of God that such a person realize the Mystery of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ and try to put the experience into words. However, according to our tradition, we can accept the Gaudiya teaching as an "insight into Mystery" that is already present in the Life of Christ. We can accept that Gaudiya Vaisnava teaching on rasas present a unique view of personal relationship experience between devotee and God. That these teachings on relationship with God are shared in Catholic experience. That these teachings are contemporary and assist Catholic aspirants in the way of holiness, and therefore sacred. That these teachings provide insights to Catholic contemplative prayer. Are rasas in Christian teaching? We turn to Mary. " In the recitation of the Rosary, the Christian community enters into contact with the memories and the contemplative gaze of Mary." - John Paul II http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

yes. equal. Both have ancient traditions dating as far back as the beginning of the church. The tradition is traced to Jesus' words: "When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home." - John 19:26-27n Mary is also Mother and symbol of the Church in Rev 12:1,5,17. Catholics believe that they greatly benefit from Mary's intercession because of her sinlessness (Jas 5:16) The tradition is there from the beginning. There is a 2nd century inscription on the wall of Mary's home in Ephesus that says "This is the holy place of Mary" . Our tradition tells us that this is the place she settled with John the apostle after Christ ascended. St. Iraneus and St. Ignatius of Antioch formed early Marian doctrine. Ignatius was the successor of St. Paul in Antioch. Historical copies of St. Ignatius' episistles are dated to the 2nd century. Devotion to the Holy Name Mary starts in the bible: "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." - Luke 1:28 The name Mary means "full of grace", hence "Hail Mary". The word Hail means ALL bow down, i.e. obeisances. Consider that the deva is saying "all bow down" to Mary. The saints have said the the angel proclaimed "Hail" for all of heaven as well as earth. Invokation of the Holy Name Mary is therefore in scripture as well as in practice in early centuries of the Church. "The name of Mary is the key of the gates of heaven," in the hands of those who devoutly invoke it." St. Ephrem (circa 350 AD) Devotion to Mary is there at the beginning. Use of the Holy Name Mary is prominent from the beginning.

PAHMO. While Catholic and Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition share many common tenets of theology, Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur's summary above outlines, I believe a distinct difference between the two traditions. First, I think it would be impossible for a Catholic to say any personal rasa relationship with the Lord is superior or inferior to another. So in the case of Dasya Rasa, if one is steeped in Dasya Rasa , i.e., "The Lord is my master, and I am His eternal servant", then he is automatically eternally satisfied. How can one realize a position as eternal servant, if not eternally serving? If one is in the direct company of the Lord as Master then he is also in His company as servant. If the Lord graces a devotee with His presence as Master, could one be dissatisfied? Could a person wish for more than the Lord's company? Could he wish for more than the Lord grants? Secondly, the highest saints in our traditions are those who, by special grace assist Jesus in His Eternal sacrifice. That is, Aspiring to the position of servitor of the Eternal Servitor is a perfect ideal for Catholic and Orthodox. The interesting parallel to Eternal Sacrifice is that Lord Baladeva's position is the Servitor Lord. He is eternally serving Krsna. The theology/dogma of Christian teaching on Jesus is that He is True God and True Man. He is all compassionate toward the living entities and "suffers with them as they suffer". That is, His agony is seeing/experiencing the conditioned souls loss of relationship with God. So many christian saints desire only to assist Jesus in His sacrifice to liberate sinners. Therefore, a certain class of saint in our tradition desire only to mitigate the suffering of the Servitor Lord and assist Him in His sacrifice of bearing the sins of the conditioned souls. In recent time St Pio (Padre Pio) is the most prominent of this kind of saint. See: http://www.padrepio.catholicwebservices.com/ENGLISH/ENGLISH_index.htm This aspiration of eternal servitor is not limited to Christian tradition. This stage of devotion is known in the east as Bodhisattva. http://kyky.essortment.com/whatisbodhisat_rfld.htm Christian "bodhisattvas" however are personalists having intense devotion to the 2nd Person of the Godhead. Padre Pio was a Fransciscan monk (Franciscan order). A religious "order" is analagous to "sampradaya". St. Francis, too was a stigmatist (like St Pio) and desired to suffer in place of Christ Jesus. see: http://www.franciscan-sfo.org/ But persons of Fransiscan order are not only transmitting Dasya rasa. Fransciscans among MANY other orders are Marian devotees. Every Rasa is Her. Our rasa is Mary and Mary is our rasa. We praise thee, O Mother of God: we confess thee, Mary, ever Virgin. Thou art the Spouse of the Eternal Father: the whole earth venerates thee. Thee all angels and archangels, thrones and principalities serve. Thee all powers and all virtues of Heaven: and all dominations obey. Before thee all the angelic choirs: the Cherubim and Seraphim exulting stand. With unceasing voice every angelic creature proclaims thee: Holy, holy, holy: Mary, Mother of God and Virgin ! Full are the heavens and the earth: of the majesty and glory of the fruit of thy womb. Thee the glorious choir of Apostles: praise as the Mother of their Creator. Thee the white-robed multitude of blessed martyrs: glorify as the Mother of Christ. Thee the glorious army of Confessors: style the Temple of the Trinity. Thee the amiable choir of holy virgins: preaches as the example of virginity and humility. Thee the whole heavenly court: honoureth as Queen. The Church, invoking thee, calls thee throughout the whole world: Mother of the Divine Majesty. Venerating thee as the true Mother of the heavenly King: holy, sweet, and loving. Thou art the Lady of Angels: thou art the gate of Paradise. Thou art the ladder of glory: and of the heavenly kingdom.Thou art the bridal chamber: thou art the ark of piety and grace. Thou art the vein of mercy: thou art the Spouse and the Mother of the Eternal King. Thou art the temple of the treasury of the Holy Ghost: thou art the noble throne of the whole blessed Trinity. Thou art the Mediatrix of God, and the lover of men: the heavenly Illuminatrix of mortal men. Thou art the inspirer of the warriors, the advocate of the poor: the compassionate refuge of sinners. Thou art the distributrix of gifts: the barrier against demons and the proud, and their fear. Thou art the Lady of the world, the Queen of Heaven: after God our only hope. Thou art the salvation of them that call upon thee: the harbor of the shipwrecked, the solace of the wretched, the refuge of those who perish. Thou art the Mother of all the blessed, full of joy after God: the comfort of all the dwellers in Heaven. Thou art the promotrix of the just, the one who gathers together those who stray: the promise of the patriarchs. Thou art the truth of the prophets, the herald and teacher of the Apostles: the Mistress of the Evangelists. Thou art the strength of martyrs, the example of confessors: the honor and the festivity of virgins. Thou hast received into thy womb the Son of God: to deliver exiled man. By thee is driven out the ancient enemy: and the kingdoms of Heaven are opened to believers. Thou sittest together with thy Son: at the right hand of the Father. Do thou intercede for us, O Virgin Mary: with Him who we believe will come to judge us. We beseech thee, therefore, help us, thy servants: who have been redeemed with the Precious Blood of Thy Son. Save thy people, O Lady: that we may be partakers of the inheritance of Thy Son. And rule us: and keep us forever. Day by day, O loving one: we salute thee. And we desire to praise thee forever: with both mind and voice. Deign, O sweet Mary, now and forever: to keep us without sin. Have mercy on us, O loving one: have mercy on us. Let thy great mercy be upon us: because we trust in thee, O Virgin Mary. In thee, O sweet Mary, we hope: do thou defend us forever. Praise becometh thee; empire is thine: to thee be power and glory forever. Amen. -- St. Bonaventure (circa 1250 AD) see: http://www.franciscan-sfo.org/ap/bona/PSALTER2.htm http://www.franciscan-sfo.org/ap/bona/PSALTER.htm

As Mahak has previously posted in various threads, one cannot fully understand Jesus without devotion to Mary. Being in Mary's presence, one naturally sees Her rasa with God. In some sense it can be said that Her rasas cannot be directly experienced, and at the same time experienced. One does experience Her rasa the same way as achintya beda beda .. direct experience of indirect experience .. witnessing Her rasa is better than experience of the same rasa within me .. I am absolutely certain that vatsalya rasa is in Mary. Like the old saying goes "chant and be happy", then "chant and meditate on Mary in Jesus Lila .. then you can say for yourself about Vatsalya lila. Daysa rasa is there (Jesus' calming the storms and sea and healing pastimes). I am also certain Santa rasya is there ( Baptism of Jesus) . As far as Madhurya rasa, I am reasonably certain that Jesus Lila actually begins with Madhurya rasa, and that this rasa is hidden IN Mary as She is hidden in the God's overshadowing power (the bridal chamber in the abode of God). Even understanding the smallest fragment of this rasa is far beyond my position and worthiness. I don't dare to tread further. I know that Mary's conjugal love affair could only be contacted if one is in a rapt ecstatic state something like the kind Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed upon entering Jagganatha Puri. The Mystery of the Incarnation takes place in God's bridal chamber where His love affairs with Mary are hidden by a cloud of God's power .. far far up in the Spiritual Sky. One cannot even see the spiritual sky unless in ecstatic trance, let alone inside the cloud covered effulgent abode of God. "And the angel said to her in reply, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God." - Luke 1:35 HerServant and yours.

Dear Brajeshwara This is a VERY important topic and I am very happy you want to discuss. Yes. Of course the rasas are there and in many flavors and aspects. We are not teaching quite the same approach however. The rosary devotion is the key and the starting place. We are called to enter into the experience of the Mystery of the Incarnation by contacting Jesus by way of the Blessed Virgin Mary bhava and rasa. We do not teach in these terms, but more simply, that we go to Jesus through the heart of Mary. The name Rosary means "garland of roses (flowers)" which is identical to the meaning mala-japa. In general we ask Mary's intercession as we pray the rosary. Your parents will likely have the rosary beads in the home, and if not, you can get through any catholic church. The rosary is a contemplative prayer and the favorite devotion among catholics. There are 20 "mysteries" of the Holy Rosary: see http://www.pacifier.com/~rosarweb/howto.htm Joyful: Annuciation Visitation Incarnation Presentation Finding in the Temple Luminous: Baptism of Jesus Feast of Cana Proclamation of the Kingdom Transfiguration Eucharist (Lord's supper) Sorrowful: Agony in the Garden Scourging at the Pillar Crowning with Thorns Carrying the Cross Crucifixion of Jesus Glorious: Resurrection Ascension Descent of Holy Spirit Assumption of Mary Coronation of Mary Since I have come to know a little about you I will suggest the following for your own discovery. In the book "Sri Guru and His Grace" by Srila Bhakti Rakshana Sridhar Deva Goswami, you will find a teaching that all the names are contained in the Maha Mantra. So if you are comfortable, I suggest that you think of your favorite rememberence of Jesus, not only from the above list but any is fine. Then chant your rounds and remember Jesus. At the beginning of your prayer, offer your actions to Divine Mother and ask for Her intercession. While you chant, fix your mind and heart on the Lord Jesus in the Lila, and particularly in the presence of Mary. Naturally, chanting the Ave Maria and the Lord's prayer are very powerful, and recommended for Mom and Dad. Since I know you are a devotee, I also know in advance about the graces you will receive. Please contact me via private message and I will provide my email also if you feel the need to discuss mom and dad spirituality and background in a more private setting. I am very interested in hearing about your service, prayer for your mom and dad. I will write as much as I know about this important topic soon. HerServant and yours!

Mary, The Theotokos (God bearer) carried within her Him who cannot be contained. "After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him." -- Matt. 3:16 Submersion in the water is the merging of the waking consciousness and the subconscious. In some sense this is the meaning of "love God with whole heart, mind, soul, strength". Every aspect of oneself, one's being is engaged in devotional service. No amount of yoga makes this happen, but rather, humble submission to the spiritual preceptor's directions. The spiritual preceptor can be present spiritually or physically. Therefore, to be baptized one must make a sincere attempt at following the spiritual preceptor in the ways of spiritual life. By grace of God, he will then become baptized. When the baptized comes up (ascends), there appears an opening in the covering over the spiritual sky, and through that opening, the spiritual sky is visible. The spiritual sky's sun and sunlight, beyond bright, is penentrating. High up in a corner of the sky, a cloud can be seen. The cloud itself covers effulgence. The Holy Spirit in the form of a dove emerges from this cloud. The Holy Spirit dove's effulgence is at first covered, by a portion of the cloud's outer layer, then as it fully emerges, It is seen effulgent and descends. The Holy Spirit descends from the Cloud in the Spiritual sky directly into the heart of the living entity, thus he becomes "Twice Born". The Holy Spirit has the power to take you with Him as He ascends back into the spiritual cloud which is the abode of God Himself. "And the angel said to her in reply, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God." - Luke 1:35 The word overshadow means "cloud covered". Mary was taken by the Holy Spirit into the spiritual cloud prior to conceiving Her Son, the Savior Jesus. Therefore, She who contained the uncontainable conceived Jesus in the bridal chamber abode of God. O Blessed and Glorious Theotokos, please intercede on my behalf that I may follow Your Son Jesus, childlike. May Your grace obtain for me that balm of love of God to annoint my senses and every action.

Thanks Mahak prabhu! I came across your above quote several years ago while searching the net. Upon reading your realzations, I was immediately filled with joy! The Marian cults in Catholicism say again and again that the path to the Father is the Son and the path to the Son is the Mother .. you must go to the Son by the Heart of the Mother! Thanks for the Glories to Mary YouTube devotion. Sweet! Hari Bol! Radhe Marie Ki Jai! " Also, Mary is the representation of the energy of God. Either as internal energy Radharani or as external energy Durga, the energy of Godhead can be considered the mother of the living entities. But there is no clash between the Bible and the Vedas, simply some people formulate their personal ideas and cause quarrelings." -- Srila Prabhupada Letter to Sivananda NY April 19, 1968

I've yet to dive into the mysteries of Krsna's pastimes with the gopis, but I think Srila Rupa Goswami said that in order to enter into the most intimate relationship with Radha Krsna, one must be the smallest most tender child. (Pardon my offenses if I am paraphrasing incorrectly or if this was said by another) Y.k maharaja makes a beautiful point that for me is very profound and worthy of contemplation. As child we can lose sectarian thinking all together and enter easily into relationship without the interference of the mind. As children of God we can relate to one another simply and purely. Krsna is unlimited, and HE is dealing with each of us individually, so as children we are free to share our experiences of Him, our stories about Him with one another. As children we listen to our friends stories of Him and marvel of His deeds and activities. As children of God, lovers of God, we are carefree about who joins our play ... we can readily welcome any friend to join our play .. and this is what has made our association on this forum positive and rich .. You who have invited me to play, have been perfectly happy to share your gifts with me, and therefore, like a child I am joyful. I know you are my friends because you have come to my defense when you suspect I may have been wounded by others who have thrown stones at Jesus. Yes .. I have entered your association but you have so mercifully entered mine. So I ask our Eternal Father, Krsna's blessing that I may more faithfully follow His Son. I take shelter under the mantle of Mary, the Theotokos (the God Bearer), known by so many Perfect Names, She is known to the Vaisnavas as, Radha, Durga and so many others. I consecrate my activities on this forum to Her. May She bless each and everyone of you with Her presence. Kindly accept Her graces! HerServant and yours!

Thank you for your kindness and dear association. Yes. I go to mass every Sunday, usually here in OH. When I travel, I often attend morning weekday mass (my favorite time to go) in the city I am visiting. The weekday morning masses are best as only the very devoted are in attendance. I think your profile says you are in CA. When I am in CA I sometimes go to this place: http://www.contemplation.com/Hermitage/home.html I walk up and down the mountain side praying the rosary there. Very transcendental. These monks are very open and non sectarian. You would be welcome there, chant your rounds. If you are an initiatied catholic, you can take maha prasadam Jesus in the Eucharist. There is a Carmelite cloistered convent in Monterey .. I don't know the mass schedule there. There is another place of interest called St. Claire's Retreat off of rt 17 between Santa Cruz and Los Gatos. I used to stop there sometimes when I visited the Seva Ashram in Santa Cruz. Regarding your question about other Christians that share my insights, yes ..I've just met a bunch of them here on this forum HerServant and yours

definitely down with the surfin' .. You da man! Amen Om

Theist prabhu, I assume you meant the Bhakti Ananda I quoted in one of my posts whose articles I found on the internet. I am not that person and like you have never met him. The sannyasi I mentioned previously in my posts (who I met personally at New Vrndavan) is an ISKCON sannyasi in India. I am very happy to be here among the "theists" Praise the Lord! Hari Bol! Hare Krsna! Jaya Srila Prabhupada! HerServant and yours

Dear friends, Thank you for welcoming me here in this place. It is a great service to me to be in the company of beautiful, honest, insightful vaisnavas sharing our common goal, to get back home, back to Godhead. Theist, .. If you know my name, I'd like to know it too. I realized it once but my poor sinful limited mind could not cling to it. I fell down again into the material pool and my memory fades in and out like a boat tossed in a storm. This association with you and the Vaisnavas is cleansing dust from my rememberence and so maybe someday I will hear Him call me by name and remember it! Again Theist please accept my humble obeisances .. Your association has been very very beneficial and enlivening for me. I don't think we've met though. Because I have seen that I am shocking some of the faithful, here on the forum , I am happy to tell a little something of myself. (thankfully I have taken no vow to prohibit me ) I first came in contact with Vaisnavism in the 70s while attending college in Columbus OH. I used to go to the temple on 13th street there for kirtan and the vegetarian feast. About that time, the fundies were very active on campus, and I being a catholic was approached by them. They gave the normal inquiry "Are you saved"? When they asked "where do I fellowship"? I would name a Catholic church at which point the conversation would turn into a judgement fest . They would attack saying : ."Catholics are going to hell .. the Pope is the antichrist, the Church is the "whore of Babylon", etc." Now it was one thing if I was going to hell, but these people were condemning my mother, my grandmother, etc. My mother goes to mass every day and has done so for around 50 years. She prays the rosary constantly. Her preaching to me was very simple .. if she thought I was straying, she would just say .. "A plant without water cannot grow". She taught me my morning prayer which I say to this day: "Good morning dear God, this day is for you, I ask you to bless all I think say and do. Infant Jesus bless me, in my work and play, help me love you Jesus more and more each day" The Child Jesus is very very dear. Yes it is a simple childs prayer .. but perfect. So, when the xtian fundamentalists attacked my mom's faith .. well then I decided I had better learn it .. because I KNEW the fundamentalists spirit was not of God. At that time (circa 1977) I studied the writings of the Church fathers and "The Ascent of Mount Carmel" by St John of the Cross and considered entering the religious life as a monk. I studied the Bible, determined to find proof that the fundies were wrong. This took no time at all, and I have posted previously a quote from Romans that talks about God's law being a law written in the heart! In 1980, at the recommendation of my priest, a devout and pious eastern rite catholic priest, I made my first silent retreat at a Trappist (Benedictine) monastery. The monks in that place take vows of silence .. no speaking .. minimal talking when absolutely necessary. They follow the rule of St. Benedict (4th century) and therefore their food is limited to bread and water. Vegetables are permitted if one is ill. Their day begins at 2:25AM where they congregate in the chapel and sing from Psalms from the Psalter. This service is called "Vigils" .. it normally lasts for 1 hour. One of the monks may give a reflection on a spiritual topic. Thereafter, every 2 to 3 hours the chapel bells ring to summon the monks to prayer where they chant hymn in praise of the Lord. For those interested, the schedule is like this: 2:25 AM Vigils (breakfast -- if you want it, you better show up by 2AM or you'll be late for Vigils) 6:00 AM Lauds & Mass (meditation) 7:15 AM Terce (work) 10:30 AM workbreak 11:15 AM Sext (lunch) 1:05 PM None (work) 3:30 PM end of work 4:30 PM Vespers (supper) 6:35 PM Compline 7:00 PM Retire The bells ring prior to every service, monks gather, and pray and chant in congregation. The hermits living on monastery property do not attend. The abbot or a priest visits them once or twice per week to administer the sacraments. While at this place, I had a revelation about my own stone of pride, namely that, while a Catholic, I would not easily proclaim I was a Christian, because I did not want others to think I was "one of them (fundamentalist christian)". I thought, "I am a fool" I am persecuting Jesus because of intellectual pride. And there, midday as I climb a hillside in the country, His mellow rasa overtook me . .. yes the prodigal son took one step toward the Father .. and the Father ran to the son .. in that time period, my rememberence of Lord Jesus intensified. It is a very beautiful life, but I did not enter into the monastic life after all. My spiritual studies of eastern philosophy increased in the early 90s .. in the early 90s I remembered "The Palace of Gold" and "Back to Godhead" magazines from my college days, and I asked "What happened to the Hare Krsnas?" Where have they gone? What about the Palace of Gold? I wonder if it is still there?" I had to find them. The internet was not yet "live" at that time so it was not an option to search on the network. I seemed to be so resolute on finding the Hare Krsnas. I have no explanation why. Within days, I went to a Borders Bookstore and there on the shelf in the Eastern Religion section was a copy of Bhagavad Gita As It Is! This book was never on that shelf in the many times I visited that store before, and I have never seen a copy of BG As It Is at Borders since... anywhere! ( I have told that story to other devotees and they are certain Srila Prabhupada sent it to me. ) I drank and drank and drank nectar and more nectar from BG As It Is recognizing it (in my conception) as a catholic (universal) scripture, nearly perfectly in line with everything in my beliefs and what I knew about my own faith. In the back of that book were many addresses and numbers of ISKCON temples. I dialed many to find that nearly all of them had non working numbers. but one worked! And from that one, I got contact info about the Columbus OH temple (which had moved from the old 13th street location when I was there) and New Vrndavan .. the Palace of Gold! In addition started visiting temples while traveling for work. I went temples in Northern and southern CA, Boston and a few other places, desiring to chant the Holy Name and proclaim the glories of God. Now there you have it. No more mystery, .. I am a poor fallen miserable sinner in need of the merciful association of you wonderful devotees. I am trying to serve the vaisnavas. Peace and Love, HerServant and Yours ps - Theist .. feel free to send me a private message if you wish to correspond ..

"Actually, it doesn't matter -- Krsna or Christ -- the name is the same. The main point is to chant the name of God." -- Srila Prabhupada (BTG -- Volume 12, No. 12. Dec. 1977) Bob: I asked one this, and he claimed that Jesus was also eating meat in the Bible. Srila Prabhupada: That's all right. He may eat anything. He is powerful. But he has ordered, "Thou shalt not kill. You must stop killing." He is powerful. He can eat the whole world. But you cannot compare to Jesus Christ. You cannot imitate Jesus Christ; you have to abide by his order. Then you are guided by Jesus Christ. That is actually obedience. That is explained in the Bhagavata. One who is isvara, who is empowered, can do anything, but we cannot imitate. We have to abide by his order: "What he says to me, that I will do." You cannot imitate. You say that Jesus Christ ate meat. Admitting that, you do not know in what condition he ate meat. He is himself eating meat, but he is advising others not to kill. Do you think that Jesus Christ was contradicting himself? Bob: No. Srila Prabhupada: He cannot do that. That is real faith in him-that he cannot do that. So why has he eaten meat? He knows, but he has asked me not to kill. I have to follow. That is the real system. You are not Jesus Christ; you cannot imitate him. He has sacrificed his life for God. Can you do that? So why shall you imitate Jesus Christ? You are imitating Jesus Christ by eating meat. Why not imitate Jesus Christ and sacrifice your life for spreading God consciousness? What do you think? Yes, when you preach you can say what you think. They are so-called Christians-but what are they doing for God? Just consider the sun. The sun is absorbing urine. Can you drink urine? If you want to imitate the sun-"Oh, here is the sun absorbing urine. Let me drink urine"-can you? Jesus Christ is powerful; he can do everything. -- Discussions between Peace Corps Worker Bob Cohen and His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. One who is isvara, who is empowered, can do anything Jesus Christ is powerful; he can do everything. -- Discussions between Peace Corps Worker Bob Cohen and His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. isvara — the almighty God; SB 1.8.46 isvara — Supreme Lord; SB 2.1.38 isvara — the controller; SB 2.5.8 isvara — the master; SB 4.22.10 isvara — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; SB 4.23.1-3 isvara — by the supreme controller; SB 5.26.17 isvara — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; SB 7.7.30-31 isvara — O supreme controller; SB 7.9.22 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; SB 8.16.60 isvara — the Supreme Lord; SB 8.24.28 isvara — O Lord; SB 10.14.13 isvara — O supreme controller; SB 10.34.16 isvara — of the Supreme Lord; SB 10.54.12 isvara — the Supreme Lord; SB 10.70.36 isvara — O supreme controller; SB 10.85.8 isvara — O Lord; SB 10.85.16 isvara — O master; SB 10.85.29 isvara — O supreme master; SB 10.85.44 isvara — O Lord; SB 10.87.21 isvara — You who are the Lord; SB 11.12.16 isvara — O Supreme Lord; SB 11.20.4 isvara — O Supreme Lord; SB 11.27.5 isvara — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; SB 12.4.37 isvara — of the great lords; SB 12.10.28 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 1.61 isvara — of the Supreme Lord; CC Adi 2.27 isvara — the Supreme Lord; CC Adi 2.40 isvara — Lord; CC Adi 2.106 isvara — the Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 3.74 isvara — the Lord; CC Adi 4.18 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 5.142 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 5.143 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 6.14-15 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 6.58-59 isvara — the supreme controller; CC Adi 7.7 isvara-tattva — the supreme controller; CC Adi 7.10 isvara — controller; CC Adi 7.10 isvara — the supreme controller; CC Adi 7.45 isvara — the Supreme Lord; CC Adi 7.110 isvara — the Lord's; CC Adi 7.120 isvara — the Supreme Lord; CC Adi 7.122 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 8.21 isvara — ?r? Caitanya Mah?prabhu; CC Adi 10.13 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 10.141 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 11.9 isvara — as the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 12.34 isvara — most influential; CC Adi 13.57-58 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 15.24 isvara — the Lord; CC Adi 16.13 isvara — the Supreme Person; CC Adi 16.106 isvara — the Lord; CC Adi 17.13 isvara — God; CC Adi 17.212 isvara — God; CC Adi 17.215 isvara — the Lord; CC Adi 17.270 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 17.271 isvara — the Supreme Personality; CC Madhya 1.180 isvara — as the Supreme Lord; CC Madhya 1.277 isvara — the proprietor; CC Madhya 4.48 isvara — God; CC Madhya 5.86 isvara — the Lord; CC Madhya 5.113 isvara — of the Supreme Lord; CC Madhya 6.158 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 6.170 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 6.171 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 6.271 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 7.33 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 7.144-145 isvara — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 8.43 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 8.122 isvara — controller; CC Madhya 8.134 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 9.58 isvara — the Supreme Person; CC Madhya 9.128 isvara — controller; CC Madhya 10.13 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 10.15 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead or isvara Pur?; CC Madhya 10.137 isvara — as the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 11.103 isvara — the Lord; CC Madhya 11.239 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 12.26 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 12.29 isvara — the Supreme Lord; CC Madhya 12.49 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 13.22 isvara — the Lord; CC Madhya 13.23 isvara — the Lord; CC Madhya 13.114 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 15.243 isvara — the Lord; CC Madhya 16.206 isvara — the masters; CC Madhya 16.217 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 17.8 isvara — Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 17.79 isvara — Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 17.97 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 17.182 isvara — the supreme controller; CC Madhya 18.115 isvara — the Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 18.196 isvara — the Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 18.201 isvara — the Supreme Lord; CC Madhya 20.305 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 20.320 isvara — the incarnation of the Supreme Lord; CC Madhya 20.363 isvara — controller; CC Madhya 21.34 isvara — the Supreme Lord; CC Madhya 25.50 isvara — the Supreme Lord; CC Madhya 25.55 isvara — the Supreme Lord; CC Madhya 25.90 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Madhya 25.95 isvara — the Supreme Lord; CC Antya 2.95 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Antya 3.13 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Antya 3.212 isvara — the Supreme Lord; CC Antya 4.74 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Antya 4.96 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Antya 4.188 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Antya 7.127 isvara — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Antya 8.4 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Antya 9.44 isvara — Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Antya 11.29 isvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Antya 16.48

You must increase your intake of water, both physically and spiritually. Fill a 1 Liter bottle of water in the morning and try to finish it at least by noon. Do the same thing in the afternoon, and in the evening. The other kind of water is prayer. I recommend you say your rounds or prayers while walking for now. If you work or life is stressful at this time, you must make some in the morning and evening for nothing but God. Try 30 minutes to 1hour in the morning and same before bedtime of only God .. nothing else He Alone. May the Divine Physician grant you peace of mind and body. ys.