bija

I am a wee leprechaun... And spirit traveller...of middle earth...in a virtual dream;) ^^ Oneday I will finish my service of manifestation in SL...then you can come and visit. All welcome...(to help build Goloka)... http://secondlife.com

hi Smiley, I have one very beautiful friend who is in Ammachi's ashram presently. Probably the nicest fella I have ever met (online). His last trip to India, he lived with Jain's and accepted their philosophy: "ahimsa-parama-dharma". He now teaches others he meets this dharma, by example. He is a powerful man! With a profound internal sadhana... Cherish the earth! Here you go>>>> http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=377595686481237910&ei=08xOScqrLJi6qAOx1eGpCw&q=earth+pilgrim&hl=en <embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com.au/googleplayer.swf?docid=377595686481237910&hl=en&fs=true" style="width: 400px;">

That's it. Even in the concept of Absolute Truth it is inconceivable how form and no-form can co-exist in harmony. If anyone of us has had mystical encounter we will know such things...truly inconceivable...is the origin of the soul. And by the way Jeffster the soul can manifest two bodies...one in Goloka-Vrindavan and one in Goloka-Navadwipa for example. The soul can experience whatever God sanctions. I live near Killarney...you come over to warm next to my fire anytime... I make a good eggplant pasta sauce too!

I look at the teachings this way. The highest ideal is given. Love of God - unmixed. Practically speaking most people are very mixed due to make-up of the mind and various desires. Therefore processes like varna-ashrama dharma are implemented by Srila Prabhupada to gradually place the body/mind in an environment where it can purify. Bhakta Raja Prabhu (which is a play on words - I presume to keep my eccentrics in check:)) has suggested that we be careful of projecting our minds onto the pristine teachings. He is correct. But the fact is that each of us has a certain make-up, and as Krsna says in Gita, even if we try to deny that we will still be forced to act. One thing that I have found very artificial and unconducive in spiritual life is to be a robot. And even worse following programed 'group think'. I feel that is, fake immature spirituality, and not what Gita is teaching. We each follow our own nature in due course. If we do 'robot' our spiritual life, eventually it becomes disatisfying or at worst dishonest to the self and full of denied doubts (lacking soul). Attempting to follow the instructions of disciplic succession is not -artificial-self-amelioration but instead is a self honest journey that cannot be conformed to a stereo-type. So instead we follow our natures, applying ourselves and dovetailing our natures in the best way we can. According to Gita that kind of karma yoga (mixed with bhakti) will purify one. Same with jnana-mishra-bhakti. At some point by Guru's grace, due to our sincerity and honest self-reflection (truthfullness), unnecessary desires of the mind and body will leave...then the instruction 'surrender unto Me' comes into play (in the inner chamber of the heart). As Krsna Raja Prabhu (who is the true raja;)) has pointed out, such an instruction is actually word of love. Because the devotee who has been purified, through applying his own nature (free of false renunciation) has glimpsed what Krsna really is. And once glimpsing that - Krsna has become an intimate friend (like in the case with Arjuna). All these concepts of the material realm, are not evil (that is a warped dualistic 'sectarian' concept), they are simply a part of every human being (John the Revelator in his vision state called it the 'mark'). To be applied and spiritualized, rather than ''magnified" as the supreme moiety! The same is the case with the 'culture', and sectarian beliefs, etc too. The material can be a tool (through mystic vision). But in the end...all material things will be thrown in the fire of sacrifice to be renewed (for the new earth). And what remains will be that which is eternal and true. Even the paper in the holy books will tarnish brown. That is why Srila Bhaktivinoda has suggested man does not need to be stuck in his old religious books...Such is not the way of the Bhagavata.

I don't know. Maybe all the bad people were trees before (now we have less trees;)).. But seriously, I don't know. Maybe the interconnection of energies is beyond the grasp of all schools of thought (scientific and metaphysical). Maybe one day the methodologies we have, will discover common ground, based on verifiable experience that can be expressed in words. There are so many profound synchronicities in this world. Understanding of those things may appear in the heart in due course..that may happen to each of us if it is inbuilt. Enough realization at least, to be peaceful sentient beings and healthy organisms for the whole. Is he? Or is he fully everything anyway. Maybe the question really is, why are tiny sparks of consciousness like us drawn to or attracted to something. Maybe its nature is extreme diversity...and it can't deny itself. I will stick my neck out here, and leave behind all rational process...and say it is LOVE. And by the way...Happy Christmas Subhasish (child)...Santa comes to all good children (like you and me). This year I have decided to believe in Santa (there is more to the story than meets the eye). There is diverse presents under that tree (this christmas morning)....

Srila Prabhupada has explained that Arjuna is a perfect soul, eternal associate of Krsna. Krsna's dearest friend. Early in the Gita dialogue Arjuna shows bewilderment and then petitions Krsna for guidance. He surrenders his will. Prabhupada explains that such a pastime (of bewilderment and finally surrender) occurs for the benefit of us, the readers. And that Arjuna is infact fully realized as an eternal asscociate of the Lord. That is why I have suggested that the Gita is an exposition. To cater for all levels of human thought - to raise one's station. As you know Kaisersose, the Gaudiya translations of Gita accept Krsna as a real person, rather than a metaphor. Saying that, metaphor can have several meanings and connotations (and much naieve misunderstanding), some of us see the deeper significance of metaphor in our personal lives and realizations. Not necessarily negative anti faith stuff. Definately not fundamentalism. For me Kaisersose, the myth is very real ...original substance of my soul. Not all will see from that angle, therefore there are other options to choose from. The battle-field of Kurukshetra is not just a metaphor describing the mind...but a living breathing reality within. And once discovered within, it then begins to externalize (Vasudeva conception - the conception of Baby Krsna). For me this is the meaning of living with Krsna consciousness - and the deeper purport of such translations. (saying that - not all are the same as me - supersoul deals with all uniquely) The sastra is pointing to something profound and very deep...some of us call this God. And we live in a realm of consciousness based in Personality. For example earth is a cow etc. Giving up all concepts is the final beatitude...at that point we no longer live in the relative world. The Gita describes the whole perspective. Without beginning or end. Guiding man toward Spirit. The Gita is a treasure chest with the jewels contained in the middle six chapters of that chest. 18 chapters in all>>>> 6>>6<<6 Maybe you would like to study the Book of Revelations..and what (John's vision) matter and spirit really is. The fudamentalists have got it all wrong:burn:. There is no sectarian elite only that is saved and the non-believer doomed:burn:!!! No christian elite! No muslim elite! No Hindu elite! No Hare Krsna elite! There is only One complete absolute non-dual truth. It simply is. Finding that truth is the purport (and reason) of Bhagavad Gita. We are an integral part of that truth. Therefore I suggest we need to integrate the concepts of life....there we will find harmony and deep inner peace. * we are all in this game together mate...it is time to awaken as a collective now...the earth (organism) bhumi is crying....>>>> That is the basis why realized souls teach!

Krsna told him to fight! Fully integrated experience. Like schooling, when you get the diploma it is not that you reject the foundational knowledge received in grade 1. But the knowledge is seen more deeply - as a complete whole. (Srila Prabhupada's perspective is bhakti ofcourse - so the purports express that angle of vision in reference to the whole.) Same with our progression in religion and internal growth, we are fortunate if we can integrate our experiences, making up a wholistic man (on all levels of human encounter). That is how I see life in general (including the Bhagavad Gita), anyhow. This naive idea expressed by some, of throwing everything out with the trash is not what Gita is teaching. Very few can reach a perfectional stage (as humans) without a progression... And from my encounter the perfectional stage is a long way off, so integration is definately practical and realistic. Fight! As Krsna says, 'we each follow our nature'. Do we have the diploma yet? Some of us are still at school (learning what surrender is). Some of us are karma-misra-bhakti yogins or jnana-misra-bhakti yogins, not unnalloyed pure devotees. In this bhakti school of thought - Gaudiya Vaisnavism - (expressed in Gita) - saranagati is held in highest esteem. Yep. He expressed questions on his duty for the benefit of the listeners. A philisophical treatise* isn't it. Bhagavad-gita. * exposition: a collection of things for public display.

Yes Sarva, the plain facts though are that we Gaudiya's do not have such an aspiration as impersonal merging...because we relish the souls potency and potential to manifest spiritual lila (from a vaisnava transcendent view-point, rather than anthropomorphic vision). And that is great and true, even if we do consider the instruction of Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja as having much benefit for sadhana and bhajan (internal vision). Siksa is really for bhajan, and bhajan is the way of manifesting that lila in the heart. And yes, I do understand your point. You see we are not identifying as impersonal, we have moved to super-soul realization and further>>> to Bhagavan realization. All these three aspects make up a complete Person. If the pencil ray (spark) was fully satisfied in a neutral state, it would never have chosen to move outward. But the potency of spirit craves deep rasa founded in bhava. In an indirect way that is how me mistakenly came to this world (of nescience), because of that potency inherent. Now we are here we have learnt that hladhini is the shelter.

What I find kinda gross in these conversations is when the word brahmajyoti is used in a subtle derogatory way to express some views. Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja never spoke of the brahmajyoti in such gross ways because he knew that the jyoti was the beautiful glowing effulgence of Goloka (Krsna's body). You are right Beggar, it is just semantics, and not worth stamping on even the little jiva's over. Sorry Sarva! I was sitting up last night and thinking about this conversation. And I thought deeply.. Maybe Sarva your own encounter with God is valid, maybe mine is too. And maybe that is a very personal encounter and grace of God...that will be explained to all in due course. The Lord has brought us together for a reason...and for those who love him all good things work together. Are we going up, are we going down, are we going here, are we going there. These things are a great mystery in the process of awakening and self realization (if one knows the depth of his mind). So please forgive me for my insensitivity (toward your spiritual life)...the heart is the field of love. I think aparadha occurs when we stamp on that sacred field. So I will end posting on this subject here. Thanks for your patience. Cheers.

This is talking about an internal process isn't it? A very personal experience with a Personal God. What do you think...

There are some real good observations in this post. I read one time on Audarya some quotes from a Srila Prabhupada conversation. He said he was introducing a Hindu cultural movement to the west. Therefore externals like the dhotis, the styles of cooking etc. These days some devotees from the west under the influence of that cultural movement will say 'Hi Ji! how ya going! Things like that. You are right Lotus, Srila Prabhupada took the position of madyama adhikari devotee and placed his feet in both worlds - both purely spiritual and relative...but his heart was uttama. He never degraded people's tradition, but it seems he wished they could see the essence. Therefore he introduced a hindu cultural movement for specific purpose... He was realistic and practical. I dont think it is such a big deal using the word hindu when conversing with certain people. And by the way, I am not a hindu:). But I do follow the Koori principle that this Great Land is Sacred (and my place to practice)! And I am not koori either...but I respect the turf and values...if ya know what I mean:eek4:.

thank you very much:)

lol:P maybe not enough sugar

Amlesh, that is such a beautiful realization and ornament. We can all find harmony there. Thx.

Hopefully in good faith for me to Jeffster (in need of association, and reading material from others to grow). I never want to tear down anyone's faith by my contribution- therefore am really hesitant about entering this debate. And continually questioning myself if I am doing the right thing (in regards to this topic). All that I am asking listeners, is to use great discernment when considering this 'subconscious nitya-siddha dreaming philosophy'. And always use discernment when reading my posts. As you say Jeff, I am not fully realized either and prone to make error. Sorry. Every move I make commits offence (even if just on a subtle level). The most important thing is the other, and to never hurt them. That is a sadhana that must be cultivated more.

I fully agree with you Theist. The spiritual realm is in the heart...so are our most Beloved's. Definately resonance.

Feeding the animals with prasadam (left-overs) is a good thing. I read this in one of the Goswami's writings some time ago. Sorry I cant recall where. This is considered prasadam distribution. Rather than throwing it in the bin with plastics and other unusable waste, why not put it in a compost and feed the worms, critters, and plant life.

Yes Jeffster, I was thinking the same after reading Theist's suggestion. This world is not false, it is temporary. Nothing is false in the kingdom of God (summum bonum), but some things are of temporary nature and not eternal, orginating in external energy. This sleeping philosophy is so subtle that it enters the heart very easily, and subtly changes the whole Gaudiya vision on a fundamental and esoteric level. This can be seen now at work in its hearers. I would suggest it is so easily accepted because it explains away the gross sinful nature as a phantasmagoria, and in a subtle way psychologically removes the accountability and consequence of sin from the psyche. By placing the fallen sinful nature within the realm of Goloka lila. Infact suggesting that eternal residents of Goloka have subconscious ghastly dreams, generated by Mahat-tattva is mayavada philosophy. Mayavada simply means that knowledge which is extracted from maya. How can the eternal residents (who we are to take shelter of) and who are expansions of Srimati Radha's bliss - come under the influence of maya? According to Gaudiya siddhanta it is impossible. Nitya-baddha jiva's can be swayed by the huge and vast external energy, but if they seek svarupa-shakti (internal energy) - made up of sandhini, samvit and hladhini - they are safe and have entered a positive and progressive immortality. If they do not, then they are considered eternally fallen.

No. Can the particles (situated in the marginal line) within the sun rays (of Sri Krsna's body -Goloka) attain ever-new and expanding bliss (love of God)? Yes, by taking shelter of Hladhini (internal potency). It is stated very clearly that suddha-sattva will arise once we take shelter of nitya-siddha's, because suddha-sattva resides within the hearts of these eternal associates. Therefore we surrender to Guru Tattva and prepare (in full humility) in this human birth, to go to Gokula. There in Gokula we have the association of Sri Krsna and associates, and under the guidance of our guide (nitya-siddha) we attain final purification. Then we enter Goloka. This is the process mentioned by Srila Prabhupada in Caitanya Caritamrta purports, quoting his spiritual master.

Jeffster, my understanding is this: Personally I will not accept that I am a nitya-siddha sleeping in some grove in Goloka dreaming of this ghastly horror. The siddha-deha is incorruptible in my opinion and the subconscious dream states are from mahat-tattva which is manifest for the corruptible. I do accept that all souls here on earth are brahman. Therefore pure spirit souls in connection with super-soul (moving toward home). I do accept that nitya-siddha's souls come to this earth plane to deliver the fallen. I accept my position as a nitya-baddha soul (as suggested by Srila Bhaktivinoda) for one esoteric reason in relation to bhajan: The nitya-siddha realm (Goloka and all that it entails) is my worshipable object (even the trees and grass). I follow the teaching of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and worship from a distance that perfect land. Not rushing in and trampling. Not considering myself nitya-siddha (but instead a follower of a nitya-siddha ). This is the fine nuance of Gaura Tattva that mercy has given the nitya-baddha souls of the the tatashta shakti. Such a position of worship is glorious for the nitya-baddha jiva, and will raise such to the fulfillment of her pure heart. Why, because from such a position we can feel the intense ecstatcy of Sri Radha and her maidens. We can receive that grace because we have taken the correct position of deep humility. Servant of the servant of the servant of the servant.... If I did consider myself a nitya-siddha in that realm sleeping (and dreaming this ghastly dream), my bhajan would be tainted with two flaws. One, the siddha-deha would be colored with maya. Two, the unique esoteric bhava would be lost as I would be identifying myself as the worshipable object (nitya-siddha) (and that object would hence be corruptible). This is a fine nuance and secret of bhajan in the lineage I follow. * On a side note I have only entered firmly into this debate for one reason. To show that this sleeping-jiva philosophy (taught by Sarva) uses quotes from Srila Prabhupada and is infact his (sarva's) philosophy, not fully Iskcons - other devotees (such as realist) who use the same list of Prabhupada quotes are his alt. avatars at Audarya. The dreaming hypothesis seems to be an evolution in thought from the fall from Goloka theory. And I have spoken out against Sarva's philosophy for one reason of good intent: that such a kind of bhajan may possibly remove the fine nuances of worshipping from a distance, and thus minimize spiritual growth. Sarva continually presses this dogma, which then enters the hearts of listeners, and so on. Instead I choose to aspire for the raganuga path, and oneday follow a nitya-siddha (in Gokula) and to worship such a soul as my dearest friend and well-wisher. Following this instruction of Sri Krsna (super-soul): yathecchasi tatha kuru 'As you like you may act' BG 18.63

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WOW... full on stuff.. This culture is a mind-blower. In the Gaudiya tradition one is first adviced to worship the Sri Sri Radha-Krsna murti as if they are Sri Sri Laksmi-Narayana. Surely Devi is the bestower of all good things.

I guess Raghu we each put our chosen faith under scrutiny at some stage too - and if we are fortunate the faith remains alive, and even better, hopefully matured and more accomodating. The non-accomodating people seem to demonize people and beliefs which do not fit their mold. The internet is a ripper for that game - and it is because of that set point that I (personally) almost left the fold of association. But then I wisened up and realized the collective unconscious ignorance is no reason to bail. And the demonizers are just playing a game (with themselves)... Ammachi put it nicely when someone asked her, does she get upset with people? She smiled and said, 'how could I get upset, when no-one is seperate from myself?'. Such comments are based on a deep realization arent they. And that is a sadhana in itself. There is no doubt in my mind that we are one yet unique. I don't know if I could formulate in words why I have faith in Krsna as the Origin of my heart...it must be some form of love. And love can get a person in very deep water (internally)... Love cant be objective reality from the way I see it, it is super-subjective (and personal). And that is why I have decided to throw away the preachers book. But I will express my heart and that which I feel is lovely and good. I feel that is service to others, rather than preaching and force feeding dogma. I will not join people intimately if they force feed...its aweful (and within me too). It pervades all religion, and oneday all will have to acknowledge that it has no place in advanced (purified) consciousness - which is the destiny of the human race. Until then we press on.

I am not interested in tricky dealings like that. Its not about ego today mate...its much deeper... I do not understand in relation to the conversation flow. I would have found the prince? Can you please explain your analogy in relation to what we are talking about. My dull old brain is the problem. We are on internet Theist, there will be some communication gap.