bija

It really depends where your level of consciousness is at. For a sadhaka who is somewhat advanced in yoga, he/she will perceive very subtle levels of existence. It is like this: matter is made up of stuff, some gross and some fine - on a scale you could say relatively speaking. The more developed the person is in consciousness, then the more finer principles will be realized. Siddhis is an example, whereas someone in gross bodily consciousness really only see gross matter and some elements of the afflictive mind. So the advanced sadhaka of yoga will be in connection with super-soul. Knowing very well she/he is not the mind, intelligence, and false ego. But instead (in connection with super-soul) the observer of these fine elements of the mahat-tattva. Inter-connection and mystical yoga begins there - non-ordinary states of consciousness. These things need to be realized, in the human form in my opinion, to enter deeper into harmony. Prabhupada has said that bhakti yoga is the top most yoga, because it will bring one through all levels quickly, without having to stay on lower steps of the ladder. Deeper than the sadhaka is the siddha (perfected one). He/she is deeply self-realized in Vasudeva conception - or also called Krsna consciousness. In that state the mind, intelligence, and ego are in beatitude (fully spiritualized) - in harmony with the full non-dual truth. For the Gaudiya Vaisnava such a state will involve raganuga bhakti and the siddha deha. Melvin, it is not so uncommon for human beings to have siddhis, one just need to purify consciousness to a finer principle - then all things are known by super-souls mercy. But if one is attached to these mysteries, like some new age energy folk for example, then bondage is sure. Knowledge of finer principle can entail more suffering (especially if material desire is still prevalent - I see an example of this in american materialistic new age spiritualities and people I encounter in the game Second Life - which extract a little vedanta here and there for some subtle material happiness): That is why it is said in the Veda, that the demigods are always harrased by the demons. When we enter more divine nature, the safest path is devotion. Krsna says in Gita that surrender entails his full shelter. That is Vasudeva conception - as you say Melvin, Krsna takes charge. Please read the big article I posted above on this page, it talks about knowlege of the Mahat-tattva and the dreaming of Visnu, as Theist is alluding to.

There is that kind of reference here: Birth of Lord Krsna - Brahma Vaivarta Purana

That's right Melvin (in a higher sense), there is God. As Paul the Apostle said, 'death has lost its sting.' That which carried the mark is cast away forever - the spiritual body is and always has been. nigh nigh...

Considering the sectarian violence Prabhupada would have saw in Calcutta (hindu/muslim) before the partition.. ... also knowing well the (potential) harmful fruit of sectarianism for future generations.

Unfortunately (can only speak for one), I am still dreaming:sleep:. And it is a not so nice dream. (excepting the peace of knowing Big Fella, that is very nice) :pray:Jiva Jago! ...a merry wanderer thought things was fine, a heart of refined pure gold then he came into the light, and his dreams were not so bold then the man became a child, taking little steps he took hold of the hand that loved and judged him not onward he did roam.... with a melted heart

You see, that which is talked about in the above article is possible for each of us. When we move forward in purification of consciousness, all truths begin to reveal in the heart spontaneously. Infact all entities consciousness from a higher plane will unite with our own minute spark (because we have realized 'service mood'), being freed of false domination and illusory seperation (ahankara)...this eventually opens to the full kingdom of God (Goloka) - the source. To use Srila Prabhupada's words - 'freed from sense gratification'. This is the beginning of Gokula (next birth) and lila... In this birth (now), we can be graced with Vasudeva conception! Step by step the creeper grows and eventually takes full shelter (complete liberation) under the Divine Couple... This is realized knowledge, far different than intellectual speculation. One does not even have to read books for such knowledge to manifest in the heart - simply because such knowledge is adhokasaja (descending from higher plane). The higher plane will admit us in due course. Jaya Nityanananda! Jaya Gauranga! Now lets begin the process and enter into anartha-nvritti.... Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare....

Fair comment this one. Sometimes I think we forget the word 'inconceivable', which is odd really considering how tiny we are and how big It is. Exactly Theist, he gave his undertstandings in accord with siddhanta on an inconceivable subject. But still, I accept Ramanadasi's views that Gopies are not dreaming about drinking in bars and so on... We need to be humble and not think we are nitya-siddhas. Instead we need to take Srila Prabhupada's and the other Acarya's advice that we are presently nitya-baddha. Then with that attitude we are able to take shelter of a higher plane. And in due course admittance into Sri Sri Radha-Krsna lila. And if we were sleepy gopies (or other nitya siddha's ) dreaming about all sorts of woe...then we definately need to take shelter of a higher plane, and wake up:eek3:. (we are not nitya-siddha's and by the way this subconscious dreaming philosophy is not even Iskcon policy, as far as I know. The subconscious and unconscious realms are a part of mahat-tattva, the shadow of the brahmajyoti) The siddhanta for Gaudiya's is 'humility' and not barging into a higher field (Radha-Krsna lila) but instead taking shelter of Gaura-Nitaai (panca tattva). Jiva Jago!

Yeah! Great news...thx Sarva. Great soul!

Prabhupada wrote those things during the cold war, I recall India was concerned about communism and China. Remember Tibet... India was concerned.

We must remember that Cit (spiritual energy) is one and full of diversity and transformation. This is what Caitanya taught, acintya bhedabheda tattva. The jiva is complete being a part of the complete whole, therefore potent, therefore able to transform (in vedanta sutra it says the liberated jiva can choose to have a spiritual form or not have - not spiritual form means either material (realm of devas) form or impersonal merging). Once fully liberated by hladhini potencies grace the jiva then begins to transform in ever-new love of God in bliss. Not material or not heavenly planet. Love has no end or limit - the supreme liberation. We (the jiva) then no longer identify with material form, but instead we identify with spiritual forms (nitya siddhas). The siddha deha, which has always been in seed form, bhakti bija. That is the real transformation which is able to manifest spiritual form - bhakti. We can practice raganuga bhakti this life, then next birth associate in Gokula in another universe...then home (Goloka). This is confirmed in CC purports by Bhaktisiddhanta and Prabhupada.

Very well done Sarva! I have some questions (more)... Are they? You have quoted Prabhupada to justify your argument>>> Are Gopies Svamsa or Vibhinamsa (extension)? ..... Or are they instead 'the internal bliss/spiritual potency expansions of Radha who is the internal of Krsna...not seperated Visnu forms (or jiva)? The internal is hladhini....all expansions have potential to take shelter internally of that bliss. That bliss is transformative for the surrendered jiva. Remember Sankaracraya does not accept transformation of energy (for that would mean personality exists within the diverse energy). Lord Narayana's internal shakti is Laksmi devi etc. If you could get some Prabhupada quotes or Bhaktivinoda quotes from your Vedabase, it would be appreciated. The diverse energies of God and the unity is really inconceivable without guidance. We (nitya-baddha) jivas are awaiting the supreme transformation (through shelter of hladhini)...then one never falls again, as promised in the Gita. That is our destiny as followers of Srimate Radharani. The nitya-siddha jiva personalities are eternally transformed (nitya)...they never fell. As you say, there is no time in the kingdom of vaikuntha. Thx Sarva.

Decaan Mujahadeen: This word Decaan is like jibe at opposing forces. The word decaan can mean plateau. So really it means the 'highest' mujahadeen. A way to show the opposing forces, that they now have some real stuff to deal with. A very well trained 'elite' mujahadeen. LeT has long had as one of its fundamental goals to set up an Islamic Caliphat throughtout the area all the way up to Russia, with Pakistan as the central base. The concept of caliphat is a foundational princple in Islam; so the militant jihadists take to the manifestation of a caliphat through violence. Islamic extremist movements have always metamorphosed, and such is the case with Decaan Mujahadeen. The last stem of the inspirational root being Al Queda, and the LeT. Infact Al Queda's power will gradually shift to these more elite minor factions or offshoots (the Al Queda ideology being fulfilled). The future of militant Islamism may occur in two ways - either the unity of the factions will move toward one purpose, or some more powerful elite factions will move toward their own agenda and violence. We have not seen Bin Laden for some time, but instead the second in command. I am intuiting that Bin Laden is very ill, or dead. And I feel that Al Queda will not be the main opposition to western forces in due course. As I said the ideology is now in play. But, USA will keep Al Queda as a living dangerous entity in form (to keep focus), until they can find the root and foundation of these new elite mujahadeen, and the diverse manifestation of Islamist ideology. And most importantly how to stop the spread of the ideology.

Beautiful story...

In a way life has alot to do with death. Life also can be a preparation for death - and preparation for death can be life, eternal. It is definately interesting to see these approaches in all traditions (shamanic, vedic, yogic, tantra etc etc), and to see it at work in one's own being also - the esoteric. What to say of the obvious exoteric and external worlds. The materialistic view of society is at a loss if such is cast aside and considered pathology - due to its ethno-centric biases. As you know Ancient, I have had an NDE before. Whether the NDE comes from some physical accident, some psychological strain, some spiritual sadhana, kundalini awakening, spiritual emergence crisis, or some entheogen...there is commonality and each has benefit if guidance is good. One will know what to prepare for internally for the crossover - which can even happen while in the body. Never having to be limited again to a lower sphere of consciousness. Ofcourse saying that, what is known can always be travelled to again - consciousness is vast and pervading. My special interest and study is spiritual emergence crisis and the transpersonal healing potential of such. That is why I have replied to this post in relation to demonic activity and other archetypal realms of the mind/psyche. Apart from being a devotee of Krsna, I am also interested in further study of the works of Stanislav Grof in the future, incuding chemical free holotropic breath work to induce deeper self insight and healing potential. http://atpweb.org/mov/grof/ http://www.spiritualemergence.net/pages/related.html

This a is a great video Kyros and refutes Lover of the Bhagavata's claim that fifth canto is a less important part of Bhagavatam. It is actually a profound section of Bhagavatam...showing the greatness of its thought. Some have suggested fifth canto is an add-on...I consider that thinking as mis-informed, due to lack of understanding of this great cultures thought process and realization of the self - and the medium.

<embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com.au/googleplayer.swf?docid=-538297875584368796&hl=en&fs=true" style="width: 400px;"> Kyros, I like this devotees understandings very much (in regards to exercising faith)...... This video may be of assistance to Lover of the Bhagavata, his claim that myth is inferior (due to lack of empiricism) is a very limited view of self, in my opinion. The compiler of Bhagavatam and the civilization that followed it, definately lived within that cosmology. The myth was infact reality...much different than modern man's understanding of myth. Richard L. Thompson briefly touches on this in the video. One great source (by the way) for understanding myth and its reality is Joesph Campbell, even if he has somewhat impersonal views. An intelligent devotee who knows himself can sort through that.. What interests me is harmonizing my faith in that cosmological view and living in the present time. For me that is the joy of Krsna consciousness and living by God's grace in this present age, free of fundamentalism, and a spirituality not soley based on dogma. An ongoing process of self exploration actually...

What is Visnu's dreaming? What is jiva's illusion? What is jiva's relation to hladhini shakti, to Radha and the gopies? We have already proven from sastra that Radha is not jiva shakti. We have also proven from the words of Srila Bhaktivinoda that the jiva's who fell down did not receive the mercy of hladhini shakti. Therefore in that fallen state we are in contact with Visnu's Mahat-tattva. But when we regain contact with spiritual substance, through buddhi yoga (bhakti yoga) - through Guru in the heart - then hladhini takes effect. Servant of the servant of the servant of Radharani. I think we have our meeting point here. Thanks.

In my opinion sastra is simply to confirm what takes place in the heart. Guru external will confirm the heart activity through sastric evidence. So in once sense Gokulkr is simply serving his fellow souls of similar understanding. It is my understanding that realization was first heard in the heart by Lord Brahma. We are in connection with that Lord Brahma, so the heart is not dependant upon any external factor. The Puranas etc are that which is remembered and written down, so the Gaudiya rasa literature etc is an aid to confirm the process, which will eventually manifest in the heart. That bhava of the heart is the ultimate evidence and manifestation of one's true connection with inner Reality/Truth. Remember Raghu we are talking about the core of man, which is centred in bliss. Sat Cit Ananda - then we have Vigraha which also manifest as sastra and complete Vasudeva conception. ************************************************* There seems to be two types of devotees. The bhajananandi is potent in that his bhajan vibration can benefit others. The other devotee takes up the work of preaching and contacts others hearts with use of tangible forms. These tangible forms are also potent and contain a certain vibration. The preacher may not necessarily effect the others heart with these tangible items, whereas bhava is not dependant in that same way....but can transfer into the heart of the other directly through shakti (or through bhakti devi who is independant). I dont think there is need to split hairs on this subject, or to claim that one manifestation of the heart is higher than another, as that only leads to offence. In a spiritual sense all is one substance, free of relative consideration. Therefore claims that Visnu or Shiva, Radha or Durga is the highest is best to be avoided - or at least dialogued about in a spirit of discussion and openess with respect. We seem to always get into difficulty with extenal forms (words), even ones that contain spiritual substance and truth. The Gaudiya ultimately must remember that the truth he/she holds is Inconceivable - and simulatenously one yet different.

yeps:pray:

Yeah it would be nice if the essence of the cosmology could be taught...and not just the external creationist view. Who knows...that may happen. It is the 21 st century, but the essence of universal man is still constant.

Thanks for replying to my question Raghu... I guess Raghu the area of ones heart and higher self does not need substantiation from an outward source (in due course of one's personal journey). Unless ofcourse one chooses to enter philisophical debate to convince another, then the use of sastric quotes comes into play. To be honest that way is right out of my league. I would rather find my heart more and share from there. Ofcourse, that may not convince anyone else. I know you know (your way)...cheers.

I agree, actually I have been contemplating these concepts alot lately, during my soul searching. I appreciate what you are trying to express... Indeed it is the door way of God and the essence of man (krsna). Some may see the door as seperate from the end game...but as you know the Gaudiya's say Naam is both the goal and the means. I was listening to Joseph Campbell lecture on myth today and he explained metaphor very well... One skeptic said, 'oh, metaphor and myth is a lie'. Campbell said 'no!' He explained it like this, 'In shamanic culture the shaman sees himself as a deer'. Campbell asked, 'is he really the deer?' The skeptic said 'ofcourse not!' Campbell said, 'you are wrong!' 'The shaman is the deer....that is what metaphor really means.' ******************************************************** In the Holy Name of Gauranga (Hare Krsna/Radha Krsna)...is all shakti. Gopies...everything! The bhakta serves these gopies... Is the realized bhakta really a gopi when he chants the Name. Most likely yes (if madhurya is the stayi-bhava). This is what Prabhupada and Caitanya are pointing to in the above verses. ******************************************************** Sambya, studying Joseph Campbell and Myth is helping me to see, many new things...without watering down my faith. Even though it is testing, for me personally it is necessary to expand vision...to be able to accomodate diversity. I have been following on and off (not fully) the discussions lately about Durga etc. We need to follow our hearts and centre of bliss... Om Shanti (Non-Dual Supreme Truth).