bija

it would be great if you can post some quotes amlesh...to open this discussion further from the vedic viewpoint.

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the christian idea of eternal damnation, or the idea of nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned)...may simply mean an inconceivably long time!

yes it is sonic...infact it is our destiny as a collective spiritual organism. it is already perfect...we just need to see.

The Gaudiya tradition recommends no intoxication. The reasons are evident, and the bhajan is the proof. But why degrade another culture as primitive to prove the validity of our own belief? That is what turns me off lately Theist. Using a tradition as a viewpoint to look down...that is really immature spirituality IMO. Very narrow, and far from the absolute truth. I dont see the Vedic culture as 'the greatest of the great' and most advanced human expression any more.. it is not what I want in my consciousness and expression of bhakti. Those divisions are something that are of this world and not spirit.

I am not suggesting a Krsna conscious psychedelic revolution:rolleyes:. Some days Theist talking with you I feel like a movie screen, that you can project your ideas upon. With a narrow lense. Please explain where the fallacy lies? And how you see Shamanic culture as existing in false identity? Lets leave Jayatirtha and other 60's freaks out of an intelligent conversation:pray:. Using such examples and projecting those things is a weak ploy in debate (conversation). The two traditions are different, and may not be mixed. But as seekers of truth surely we can harmonize the world we see. I don't see a bright future for the world with narrow thinkers seeking position (saying how things are)... *** there is many parallels between non-ordinary states and trances of various traditions. That is what I am suggesting is worthy of further investigation. If we have had minimal realization of subtle realities...then what authority do we hold on the subject.

Resentment, what a strange idea. I don't think Sonic is suggesting that. God desires reciprocation, relationship, and love. Maybe it is only natural that some of his parts situated in santa rasa, move into friendship etc. The Gaudiya philsophy has suggested that - see Brhad Bhagavatamrta. Love is progressive and ever-new. Soul is dynamic and potent, not inert. As Beggar is suggesting vision of this world may depend on our angle of vision. If we are conditioned and suffering the world may appear as a prison house. If we are Krsna conscious the world may be seen as Vaikuntha (realizing the Supreme Person's design). The teachers have presented various angles for us to contemplate. Remember, we are parts and parcels of that great Personality. How can God resent himself?

aaah...the wisdom of God and his great plan Sonic. Love. Nice post, thx.

if you are not a big eater with poor appetite try chewing small amounts of calmus root. It increases appetite and has even been used in treatment of anorexia nervosa. The calamus stimulates stomach muscle movements and inspires appetite. But small amounts only should be used as in larger doses the muscle movments may cause vomiting. The calamus also has very beneficial anti-anxiety properties and a mild non-addictive stimulant which promotes activity and good muscle tone. A very delicate beautiful plant.

I found from my own personal experience, difference between intense yoga practice with regulation, and ingestion of psychotropics. Here is some observations: Over the last decade I have practiced Naam Yoga, more deeply for the last six years. The unfoldment in the heart has been gradual, subtle, and profound. Even entering different states of consciousness naturally. A wonderful experience. I am of the opinion that this gradual unfoldment is natural and very conducive for the human organism. The plant ingestion for me was very different. Rapid profound insights over several hours. In a way more insights than years of yoga practice. But, different, not greater. This rapid unfoldment needs processing, and that is where the real work begins...after the experience. Then we enter a more natural flow like the yoga and its gradual awakening as we process day to day our new self insights. I appreciate Theists and Amlesh's views, because yoga is so natural! Not without danger though, as awakening for certain individual can be a challenging process with various spiritual emergence crisis. As they say, 'the narrow path is not easy'. If western man pursues the shamanic path, it must understand what it is doing. Therefore the need of a guide, and a well founded ritual. What ritual can man as a collective embrace in this global village? That is yet to be seen. Divided sectarian religion may one day be a thing of the past. As man yearns for unity, he may find. Thank you for opening this thread Soma, this subject is very interesting and worthy of dialogue.

If you abuse something ofcourse there will be damage to the body...same as if you eat ghee fried pakoras (prasadam) everyday by the dozen;). Ayahuasca brew which contains various alkaloids and dmt is quite unique, in that extensive tests have been performed on it (this is not the case with some other drugs). An indepth study in Brazil was performed on a Santo Daime Church in Brazil by professionals. The tests found positive results. No negative brain function...and even elevation or no depressant moods were found. Instead a general well being. What to say of the over-all psychological improvments as Soma Juice has pointed out. This substance has blessed thousands, even children. Ayayhuasca was also found to be non-addictive. Now, the shaman tradition is thousands of years old, and these plants have been used within the cultures, studied by the cultures, and methodically ingested by the cultures. This is enough proof that there is no demon side effects. Infact the heritage of shamanism is vast, and a real treasure for humanity. The tradition has always warned that the plants should not be abused. As the 'plants are conscious spirit soul' that interact. If the plant is abused madness will ensue. Just like the degrading effects of marijuana upon the addict. Years ago I met one man in my travels, he had abused the Ayahuasca brew while in Brazil. He was mad. He did not listen to the teachers. Maybe he needed that madness, and after some years realized his mistakes. Ayahuasca contains DMT, which is also within the human body. The pineal gland activates large doses at death or other major stressful times. NDE's, OBE's, Visions etc may all be related to DMT release. The beneficial use of DMT is that it allows us to die beore dying. To really see the mind...and to be able to walk through the valley of death. Rather than being led by false imagery and hellish visions of the unconscious. Modern psychiatry is in the process of studying and desiging new psychotropic medications from DMT etc. A new drug that will open the suffering patient toward healing, rather than tranquilize and shut down. We as a world don't necessarily need a new drug (soma)...we need a new ritual! One that makes life sacred. Before earth perishes...by the degradation of our minds. Presently modern man is disconnected from himself and the environment... Because you abused drugs to a max threshold. Now your bad experience is projected upon something very different. Abuse is far different than spiritual healing work...but at least you learned the karma and gained insight into your drives and material impulses. <embed src="http://blip.tv/play/AeS2PAA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="352" height="286">

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (author of Phenomenon of Man) and jesuit priest spent six years in exile in China when his home country was beseiged by Nazi Germany. Teilhard as early as the 1930's saw a great hope for the future. He could perceive that east and west would converge. Each complimenting each other. Srila Prabhupada held the same vision, and was one of several pioneers who worked tirelessly bringing that vision of harmony into fruition. The fruit of these great pioneers is seen in today's modern world. A divergent world has hope, if it can converge toward a single destiny. East and west as brothers keepers. Right up until the 80's and 90's shamanic indigenous culture was perceived as primitive by the western scientific mind. A sceintific culture stemming from the early enlightenment of middle ages Europe. Today the world has moved forward into the 21st century. Knowledge is accessible, and learning has been made easier. The depths of ancient cultures are within the finger tips and key boards of the seekers for truth. Man as late as the 1930's or 40's did not have that luxury. We do! I perceive in the future east and west will converge with shamanic culture. The wise are now ready to learn from the meek... And in due course man will have integrated enough to converge in common unity of purpose. The purpose of the Whole. While retaining the unique gift of individuality. With deep respect for earth, each other, and love of God! Rather than a sectarian affair and divided nations.

Yes it is perfection (love of God). I have been contemplating this thread and there are some things I wish to express. Firstly, Soma Juice has expressed his present interests and understandings of spiritual life. I am of the opinion that another's spiritual understanding should be nurtured. Infact shamanism is the reality that a spirit can move through various levels of being. Honoring Soma Juice and his choice is giving him room to move through those various levels, on the journey. That space has been granted each of us. Love of God is such a high ideal, way up there in perfection. Until that time I now choose to allow space for others because I need space to travel too (within the realms). My mothers family is originally from Chile, and there is some specific generic insights that point to our past. As people from the forest. The wonderful thing about Shamanism is that it holds no dogma. And it moves in harmony with nature. To place shamanism in a category of some primitive thinking is a persuasion of the past. Modern thinkers can now see the great treasures held within the forest traditions. Now if we come to theology, doctrine and dogma - then one may suggest that the forest dwellers (aboriginals) worship in the mode of ignorance (spirits). The same old same old, polemics have been long held in this forum even within the vedic tradition itself. ie shiva durga krsna threads. For these reasons I can no longer hold to these narrow views. I see very little use of such thinking anymore. Going on two years ago I had the good fortune of associating with a very special person. A member of a Brazillian Ayahuasca Church. I learned, by her good example, that Ayahuasca and other substances do not deserve the label 'illicit drugs'. Only our perverted western culture of gratification has made the sacred plant an object of lust and desire. Addiction and abuse. It is here, if only for one reason, that shamanism has something to teach us. Respect. Respect for nature and the sacred. Respect for sacred medicine that Great Spirit has given. This knowledge can be of great benefit for us in the west...drugs will not go away. Maybe a new soma (whatever that may be) is in call! As I have suggested, deep states of non-ordinary consciousness are deeply healing and transformative...there are numerous non-drug practices to enter these trances.. The western religious mind and to some extent various forms of hinduism have seen this earth as a ghastly prison...with need to get out of the mess. Whereas the forrest dweller considered the land to be sacred. The aboriginal holds the land as the sacred place. With a wide vision of sacredness the shaman offers healing to those whose energy carries foreign matter. Once that energy is cleansed the individual is healed. The sacred plants have been used to give deepr insight for healing purpose. Much different than drugged out youth in the streets of suburbia, without any appeal for the song-bird! After reading so many ideologies and divisive arguments at Audarya, I have began to question where is the harmony? I have decided now, that harmony is not found in dogma or shadow (love of God). And holding contempt toward others is a sign of that shadow. That supreme position is rejected... I choose now to accept the forest-dwellers, my ancestors. For healing of sacred earth - mother. Anything that does not promote healing needs to be left behind...even if that means accepting earth as sacred, rather than aiming for some other place (place in the sky) that is far from the heart. I see this earth and consciousness that pervades it, as the greatest of all treasures for someone fallen like myself. A place to apply, learn, change, grow, utilize, feel gratitude for.... Goloka is within the heart, not out there somewhere. Whole and integrated. Full of longing. Follow your heart Soma Juice. It will guide you well. Respect for the sacred medicine is something addicts and users never understood. Ironically Ibogaine may be the cure for such a serious illness. The plant will help one see. This is the meaning of Santo Daime. Daime means 'give me'. The sick can be given insight...an overview from the giver that guides the seeker upon the way of good intent... and eventually full empowerment to choose life. All medicine is within the sacred forest. Nice post. Good mood for bhajan.

Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> The Lord is served by all His parts and parcels, as the complete machine is served by its parts and parcels. Any part of the machine removed from the whole is no longer important. Similarly, any part and parcel of the Absolute detached from the service of the Lord is useless. The living beings who are in the material world are all disintegrated parts and parcels of the supreme whole, and they are no longer as important as the original parts and parcels. There are, however, more integrated living beings who are eternally liberated. The material energy of the Lord, called Durgā-śakti, or the superintendent of the prison house, takes charge of the disintegrated parts and parcels, and thus they undergo a conditioned life under the laws of material nature. When the living being becomes conscious of this fact, he tries to go back home, back to Godhead, and thus the spiritual urge of the living being begins. This spiritual urge is called brahma-jijñāsā, or inquiry about Brahman. </td></tr></tbody></table> so being integrated is the go then...?

...One tenant of shamanism is: Everything is a dream, and all dreams are real....

........ width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value=" "></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src=" " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> more heroic than william wallace...

If you have questions about this siddhanta and why he said it (who he heard it from)...go to the forum and ask him. He will answer you when he has time. Bye.

It has been suggested by some Gaudiya Vaisnava teachers that areas of that sky have very few spiritual planets. And that is where we have fallen from. I guess once samvit functions with sandhini, and hladini - the bigger picture is revealed to the heart. Then we gain understanding of our closeness to the Lord in our constitutional position (wherever that may rest). Closeness by serving the Lord's intimate associates.

Bhakti can be cultivated throughout the day. Set times can be made for meditation and jaap. I like to utilize the back yard for some yoga on a sunny day. Routine can develop this way. Cooking can be done in devotion, washing the pots, cleaning. A lifestyle of devotion. Everyday activity... Internal prayer and contemplation - in relation to God. Manifesting a spiritual environment, beginning with internal life and sadhana (the objects of the senses). Appreciating nature and seeing God's presence. Gratefullness and devotion compliment each other. These are some ways I have cultivated my bhakti lifestyle over the years. Mindfullness has helped alot. Being at peace and present within - Krsna consciousness..

Yes, they do not...some have eight arms, skulls and fangs;). I think Beggar makes a good point here: This is a sensible approach when talking about this nitya-siddha thing. The important thing for us is to accept an appropriate mood for bhajan (full of subtle nuance)...then we can awaken to deeper aspects of our person rapidly. This is the key reason why I reject half the cake philosophy, bhajan requires the full pudding. The summum bonum - big picture. In that way all things in due course become spiritualized...rather than maya (fragmented philosophy). If the nuances are not taught correctly (by inadequate bhajan) then the process will lead to a different internal mood than a tradition aims for. This is why factional points of philosophy are completely harmonized by the wise sadhaka. Rather than just attempting to enjoy the cherry ( a fragment)..it is a process and correct bhajan is essential. Harmony also leads to less offence.

Yes. This is the high point of Bhagavata Philosophy...for example the characters Rahu and Tulsi are persons (one a planet the other a plant). The list goes on. Infact, this point that Beggar has made shows that the Gaudiya tradition is founded upon 'Personalism', and personalizing all things has been a way handed down in tradition for centuries. Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja points to this in various lectures and in his printed books. He suggests the Person is the real substance, then things like shadow (rahu) eminate from that Original plane. Conditioned we see Rahu, when infact the descending adhoksaja plane sends down the correct view (evident and eternal). We attain that union (eternal nature) by close proximity to that Person - the adhoksaja realm is full of nitya-siddha personality - the internal potency activated by hladhini. We are to take shelter of that transcendental plane. In this earth plane we cultivate through application (dovetailing) - in deep humility. As has been suggested in a previous post, in that humility we cultivate that all persons and our environment are spiritual substance, except me (who is fallen). The way of personalizing all things is much deeper ingrained in Sarasvata lineage than the argument suggesting we are all spark. The Original nature is deeply personal according to Gaudiya Tattva. And the spark is sheltered by Hladhini manifesting form for lila.

beggar, I appreciated some of your thoughts in post 14. thx.

there is some preparation of herbs in africa that is pounded until a white foam appears...the foam is then ingested.

your welcome....the video has a good message worthy of sharing.