bija

you are a gem:)

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Great question!

yes sir we do need to...

It will come back hopefully. Last year Kula I went to see Amma in the city. The next day went to Melbourne temple for mangala arati and kirtan. I only visit temples a couple of times a year. That mornings kirtan transported me to a place of unity. We were spinning wildly as one...with no dizziness like the whilrling sufi. The trance was very deep...with many subtle insights. I have not met many devotees to discuss these things, but that morning I knew these young bhaktas were on the path to profound substance free God consciousness.. and through that I could see the greatness of the modern sankirtan, and its relevance for intelligent pure young men and woman of today.

I don't see it that way sambya. I see the vedic appearance as a great pinnacle in consciousness evolution as a collective. The indigenous shamanic traditions may have evolved alongside vedic culture...but as we know inter-connection is a truth. Ironically all these manifestations occured at the same point in history...interesting to note also, the evolution of the computer appeared at the same time in west coast 60's. At Berkley there was white robed professors creating the pc, alongside professors in other corridors wearing kaftan and exploring eastern tradition:cool:. And here we are today:rolleyes:... at audarya...online:D...

soma juice, this dvd may interest you: http://www.entheogen.tv/

Indeed, all this is the expanding and evolving noosphere of love... The word noosphere really hits the right harmony lately:).

John was definately out of his 'normal mind' that day...but never the same man again:rolleyes:! Hence-forward the new earth...and all to tell!!

Yes, and maybe as Kulapavana has suggested at some point the plant became extinct. So the tradition moved forward into other realms of consciousness discovery, through meditation techniques, even up to Patanajali. Well possible. Yes.

Many of us have experienced this too.. and know holotropic states are attainable through intensive devotional practice. An experience that correlates to other trance traditions, and in a clear way is very transformative and ongoing. The beauty of yoga and trance is that it is very clear, and activates pineal gland activity naturally, like a naturally opening lotus - without need of the plant activate. * holotropic - moving toward wholeness.

very interesting discussion.. I think so too. It is of deep interest to one day understand, the transition from 'a cult based on soma' toward a vast vedic tradition that has at its centre the trophy of 'expanded awareness'.

Some have suggested soma was made from Argyreia nervosa - bastantri (Sanskrit), native to India. If the soma was grinded then this makes sense as this seed is often ground. Possibly the soma was a blend of various ingredients that were compliments, as is common practice in shamanism and spiritism. Soma must be a very old tradition, predating later vedantic thought? Many of the indigenous cultures utilized sacred plants and discovered their tradition. Would it be too bold to suggest the same for vedanta's roots? *important to note - non-ordinary states are not dependant upon plants. The yoga tradition is an example of this. Also the shaman may enter trance without the plant, once the knowledge of the plant spirit is known.

This what I question. The word primitive has connotations of ethno-centric bias. There is no doubt that shamanic traditions have different perceptions and goals than much of vedanta, but there is definite similarity in the non-ordinary states of consciousness. Whether one is advanced and the other primitive is highly debatable. I would suggest one of the greatest benefits from encountering non-ordinary states is the after effect. That leads to a much broader vision and knowledge, and from that wholeness and healing. This is the goal of shamanic healing...and in some way the goal of non-dual vedanta.

Exactly. The scientific community see a major link in these states and religious mystical tradition (and the experience involved). This opens up a whole new scope for research, discussion, and finding.

That's right primate, what are its users finding out about themselves, that draws them back? In ancient Greece there was elaborate rituals and secret initiations founded around the psychotropic...with followers in the thousands;). The same with intense yoga practice and non-ordinary states, once tasted no come down. 'Stay high forever' was an early motto of the Krsna's in the 60's. As you know in your scientific research Primate, once the particle realizes its function in a greater vision...(there is no reversal). It seems to be a factor in consciousness and evolution... The greater vision may even be myth, founded upon archetypes and other structures revealed in trance. Have non-ordinary states of awareness been a 'key factor' in man's evolution? And move toward wholeness? I think so..

It is a very interesting subject matter. I am sure you have read a little Stanislav Grof. He also makes the link between vedic culture and shamanism (entho-botany), considering the non-ordinary states of consciousness (similarities). Research by these cutting edge scientists is of great importance in my opinion. With possible treatment of various diseases, and psycho-spiritual emergence problems. If modern society could develop a new ritual, then I can see a very important use (amongst society) for sacred plants. Rather than the ritual of sense-gratification and intoxication. It can be seen in Brazil that ayahuasca churches have very spiritual members, who do not drink or use drugs. The ayahuasca brew is non addictive, and holds great spiritual value for its users. I would say that non-ordinary states of consciousness hold a vital role for the future well being of this planet! These states can be very transformative and healing. Whether the states can be induced by either breathing work, yoga, or plant/medicine rituals...may depend on societies acceptance and understanding of the new ritual that it chooses.

I am not suggesting material time exists in Vaikuntha. I am suggesting that the liberated servant in Vaikuntha may have no desire to know such things. But instead live within the Lord's yoga-maya performing pastimes for the Lord's pleasure...rather than simply the 'opulence' of being greater than time. I am suggesting that there are morning and evenings in the spiritual world... I am suggesting that spirit is of a much finer principle than gross experience like time. Therefore activity in that finer energy may have very little resemblance to material affairs.

Maybe that is the case. It would depend upon the souls desire I presume. For example if we seek the opulences of God in union, then Lordship over time would be there... But, if we seek Vraj rasa we come under the influence of yoga-maya. This yoga-maya's purpose is to slowly lift the veil, to allow the supreme opulence to show its face without opulence over-riding. So the devotee in that land - comes under the supreme illusion of time (for sweet lila). Brahma stealing the cows is an example of yoga-maya at work. If the devotee does not desire opulences, then maybe they are not manifest to the heart. I recall when I was a child I wondered if all the mysteries of God would be revealed at death. Now, this childhood fancy has left..

yes, good post theist, I follow you here in these thoughts. It depends on the person hey... and the bhakti.

I have never been to India. But definately feel free to ask questions here, others may know, hey... When you write to people share about your life and hopes for devotion...I am sure good people and teachers will assist you on your journey. And some may share their experiences too. good travels..

as one of his friends...maybe;).

sure can imagine that pankaja...needs good advice and planning hey. maybe oneday you and me will stay in india too, for some time to study:). hari! hari! i hope boldsukh can find a way.

hi boldsukh...you can private message me if you like. My spiritual master lives in Puri...he is 37 yo and knowledgeable in computers and may have good advice for you how to puruse living in India to learn vedic culture. He would be happy to talk with you. private message me and I will give you his e-mail address and internet forum. You may introduce your self at either of these places, the way you have done here, - if you wish to ask questions.. Yes, good idea pankaja, boldsukh may like to ask these questions to find a way. All the best for him. y.s.

Aaah...two different fella's teaching in their unique ways. I think you touched on that in another thread. Interesting in a way, by their teachings and methods, one-day; we may be able to glimpse their personal bhajan.. and discover ours.