Beggar

If you can honor (take) some real (high quality) prasadam (food offered to the Lord or His pure devotee) then the desire to eat meat will fall away.

Have lawyers, judges, justices, doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists shaped the development of the bureaucracy of GBC ISKCON in the U.S.?

Arjuna Prabhu, go easy on the author of "you are in for a real treat". He's obviously a person who has much experience with ISKCON and somehow became jaded and cynical. Maybe he's even an ex-ISKCON guru or sanyassi and he's just projecting his own experience on that of current sanyassis.

I completely disagree. I think that the GBC bureaucracy is hoplessly mired in the muck of ISKCON (post-Prabhupada lila). And there is a light at the end of the tunnel. In fact its time to put away my laptop and catch the subway.

Here's an example of how the "ten thousand year theory" is often applied. Its from a VNN article from 1997 about "book changes" by Gauri das Pandit das: "Srila Prabhupada translated the spiritual law books for the next 10,000 years, day and night, until his dying day. He translated constantly despite his busy preaching schedule. He did this to live on in the books. He said before he left the planet that he had given us everything in his books. He said the books were the manifestations of his ecstasy. He said if we read his books and cooperated together, every thing would go on nicely. To edit his books without his sanction is risky business. We should try to be absorbed in the ecstasy of the spiritual master and not try to alter it, thinking we can 'improve upon' his ecstasy." I also do not like the "book changes" so that is not why I'm posting this and quoting him. Its just to show how pervading the "ten thousand year theory" really is. And besides even if Prabhupada had said, "these books are the law books for the next ten thousand years"; then what exactly did he mean? Since he was really the message bearer of the "Goswami Literature", SB, BG and their commentaries, why isn't he referring to these literatures no matter who translates and purports them, as long as its bonafide? Of course Swami Narasingha says it a lot better than me. I guess I'm just trying to digest all this and its implications.

EDITORIAL January 10, 1999 VNN2820 The Golden Age Of The Sankirtan Movement <hr> BY SWAMI B.G. NARASINGHA EDITORIAL, Jan 10 (VNN) — The Golden Age of the Sankirtan Movement: Is Srila Prabhupada the Acharya for the Golden Age? In a manuscript entitled Srila Prabhupada, The Founder Acharya of the Golden Age, Part One, presumably written by an ISKCON member, it is consistently emphasized that "ISKCON is the Golden Age predicted by Sri Caitanya, and Srila Prabhupada is the Acharya for the Golden Age." Furthermore, the oft-quoted phrase, "For ten thousand years my books will guide the world," is repeated. Are we to regard such statements as authoritative for all Vaishnavas, or could the author have been carried away by his own sentiments? Indeed, the author was carried away by sentimentality. In the manuscript of reference, many statements are out of context, or rather statements are made with the bias of ami-guru jagatguru: my Guru is Jagatguru. Such statements have no universal application, however well intended their author. In any event, the phrase attributed to Srila Prabhupada, "For ten thousand years my books will guide the world," is actually not verifiable. He might and he might not have said it. Obviously, some devotees think that he did, otherwise they would not quote it. But it is not mentioned in any of the main writings, books, lectures, letters, room conversations, morning walks and so forth which have been recorded and preserved in the archives. Therefore, we do not accept such hearsay as an absolute or authoritative statement. (There are 484 references by Srila Prabhupada in VedaBase to "my books." None of them includes the famous quote about the 10,000 years, even remotely. In the Lilamrta we find the quote. Satsvarupa Maharaja writes: "One day in the car he had said, 'My books will be the lawbooks for human society for the next ten thousand years.'" It is not mentioned where Srila Prabhupada said this, or when, or who was present.) Nevertheless, let us consider the possible truth of the statement, for surely it has its validity in transcendental arrangements. What were Srila Prabhupada's books in the first place? Were his books his own creation, or were they something else? Srila Prabhupada's books were for the most part translations of, and commentary on the already existing books written by such empowered personalities as Srila Vyasadeva, Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, and Srila Rupa Goswami. Srila Prabhupada did not take credit for his own writing, but rather took pains repeatedly to proclaim that he was following in the footsteps of the previous Acharyas. In fact, the Bhaktivedanta purports are so much in line with the purports of previous Acharyas that, in many cases, one could say they are translations of those of previous Acharyas. Indeed they are, but one would never know it unless one took the trouble to examine the texts of the previous Acharyas. (In a recorded room conversation, Feb 26, 1973 Srila Prabhupäda says: "They are not my books. I am simply translating.") The intimate relation between the Bhaktivedanta purports and those of the previous Acharyas is the true glory of Srila Prabhupada. He did not add anything or take anything away; he simply repeated the words of previous Acharyas. Therefore, how could the previous Acharyas be any less important? We should remember that Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that anyone who does not recognize his 'Swami' is a prostitute. Mahaprabhu made this statement as an admonishment to Vallabha Acharya, who failed to recognize the importance of Sridhar Swami, the original commentator on Srimad Bhagavatam. Srila Vyasadeva was directly empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and the mature product of the samadhi of Vyasadeva was Srimad Bhagavatam. We find also that Srila Rupa Goswami was directly empowered by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to distribute bhakti-rasa throughout the world, and he was specifically instructed to write books on the science of Krishna consciousness. Actually, it is Srila Rupa Goswami who heads our sampradaya. sri-caitanya-mano-bhistam sthapitam yena bhu-tale svayam rupah kada mahyam dadati sva-padantikam "When will Srila Rupa Goswami Prabhupada, who has established within this material world the mission to fulfill the desire of Sri Caitanyadeva, give me shelter under his lotus feet." (Bhaktivinode Thakura) Srila Rupa Goswami established the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu in this world, and thus it is he (Sri Rupa) who is the actual Acharya for the period of the Golden Age. Hence, all members of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sankirtan movement are called 'rupanugas', the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami. mahaprabhu sri-caitanya, radha krsna nahe anya rupanuga-janera-jivana "Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Who is the undivided form of Sri Sri Radha Krsna, is very dear to the followers of Srila Rupa Goswami." The test of a genuine disciple lies in how well he has understood the purpose of the spiritual master. It is surprising, even alarming, that some devotees ignore that the goal of being a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is to become a rupanuga. This is confirmed in the Bhaktivedanta purport to Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya-lila, 19.132) as follows: "That was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati's opinion, and he specifically told his disciples to write books. He actually preferred to publish books rather than establish temples. Temple construction is meant for the general populace and neophyte devotees, but the business of advanced and empowered devotees is to write books, publish them and distribute them widely. According to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, distributing literature is like playing on a great mrdanga. Consequently we always request members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness to publish as many books as possible and distribute them widely throughout the world. By thus following in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Goswami, one can become a 'rupanuga' devotee." The Six Goswamis (headed by Sri Rupa) scrutinizingly studied all the revealed scriptures with the aim of establishing eternal religious principles for the benefit of all human beings. Srinivasa Acharya establishes this conclusion, as follows: nana-sastra-vicaranaika-nipunau sad-dharma-samsthapakau lokanam hita-karinau tri-bhuvane manyau saranyakarau radha-krsna-padaravinda-bhajananandena mattalikau vande rupa-sanatanau raghu-yugau sri-jiva-gopalakau "I offer my respectful obeisances unto the Six Goswamis, who are very expert in scrutinizingly studying all the revealed scriptures with the aim of establishing eternal religious principles for the benefit of all human beings. Thus they are honored all over the three worlds, and they are worth taking shelter of because they are absorbed in the mood of the gopis and are engaged in the transcendental loving service of Radha and Krsna." (Sad Goswami-astakam, text 2) Therefore it must be concluded that the books of the Six Goswamis are indeed intended to 'guide the world.' Srila Prabhupada's translations and commentary on them must also be of the same quality - 'my books will guide the world.' A similar position is held by Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami, in that he was empowered to write the Caitanya-caritamrta. more ajna karila sabe karuna kariya tan-sabara bole likhi nirlajja ha-iya "By their mercy, all these devotees ordered me to write of the last pastimes of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Because of their order only, although I am shameless, I have attempted to write this Caitanya-caritamrta." (CC. Adi-lila, 8.72) In the Caitanya-caritamrta we also find mention that Vridnavana dasa Thakur was the Vyasadeva of Caitanya-lila, and therefore no intelligent devotee could possibly dismiss the writings of Vrindavana dasa Thakura as nonessential. Actually, without being empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, no one can write transcendental literature. And the fact is that the Gaudiya-sampradaya has thousands of such literatures, written by hundreds of empowered personalities. It is the super excellent characteristic of the Gaudiya-sampradaya that it has the greatest collection of transcendental literatures the world has ever known. All such literatures are meant to 'guide the world.' kali-kalera dharma krsna-nama-sankirtan krsna-sakti vina nahe tara pravartana "The fundamental religious system in the age of Kali is chanting of the Holy Name of Krsna. Unless empowered by Krsna, one cannot propagate the sankirtan movement." (CC. Antya-lila, 7.11) It is a most glaring defect in certain sections of contemporary Vaishnava society that some devotees want to replace Srila Rupa Goswami, who was appointed as the Acharya of our sampradaya by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, with Srila Prabhupada. Discounting the contribution of all Acharyas and missions since the time of Sri Caitanya, some persons declare that ISKCON marks the beginning of the Golden Age. It is a foolish proposal and Srila Prabhupada would certainly not sanction such inappropriate conclusions. It is a fact that during Srila Prabhupada's lifetime, ISKCON (as a united preaching effort) did perform wonderful service to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's sankirtan movement. This is the eternal credit of all those souls who participated. Yet pride seems to have been the greatest enemy of those souls who once served the lotus feet of Srila Prabhupada, and who once received the blessings of Mahaprabhu on their humble heads. It is truly unfortunate that, in the two decades since the disappearance of Srila Prabhupada, some proud and arrogant disciples have brought about more disgrace to Srila Prabhupada, to ISKCON, and to the Gaudiya-sampradaya than fell upon the whole of Vaishnavism during the past 5,000 years. It is sad, it is unfortunate, but it is true. And all in the name of ISKCON and its Founder Acharya! .. If the stubborn insist that ISKCON is the Golden Age then the dismal conclusion would hence be that the present day marks the end of Kali Yuga and we should be expecting the Kalki Avatar in the year 2000 (Y2K)! There is indeed a Golden Age within the age of Kali Yuga, but that age began with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the advent of His sankirtan movement, and not with the forming of any institution in modern times. There is no monopoly on the sankirtan movement by any institution; the parampara itself retains all rights. Whosoever takes up the sankirtan movement will prosper spiritually, and whosoever deviates from the principles of pure devotion will reap a harvest of mixed results. We find in the Brahma-vaivarta Purana the mention of a ten thousand year period in which Vaishnavism and the cult of Sri Caitanya will flourish in the world. Afterwards, darkness and ignorance will consume the world. In the Brahma-vaivarta Purana the Supreme Personality of Godhead, while speaking to Mother Ganges, describes the dawn of the Golden Age by first mentioning those who worship the Lord by mantra. This reference to those who chant mantras as the central focus of their worship indicates Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhvaite Brahmins. man-mantropasakasparsad bhasmibhutani tatksanat bhavisyamti darsanacca snanadeva hi jahnavi "Thereafter by the sight and touch of those who worship me by my mantra, all those sins will be burnt." (Text 51) Next, the Brahma-vaivarta Purana directly indicates the advent of the Golden Age inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu with the performance of hari-nama-sankirtan (the chanting holy name) and the recitation of Srimad Bhagavatam. harernamani yatraiva puranani bhavamti hi tatra gatva savadhanam abhih sarddham ca srosyasi "There will be chanting of the name of Hari and reading of the [bhagavata] Purana. Reaching such a place, attentively hear." (Text 52) It is thoroughly indicated that even the most sinful persons will become Vaishnavas by the chanting of the holy names, and due to the presence of such purified Vaishnavas the whole planet will become a place of pilgrimage. tathapi vaisnava loke papani papinamapi prthivyam yani tirthani punyanyapi ca jahnavi "O Ganges, the whole planet will become a pilgrimage site by the presence of Vaisnavas, even though they had been sinful." (Text 55) Such a blissful condition is then predicted to last ten thousand years. kaler dasa-sahasrani madbhaktah samti bhu-tale ekavarna bhavisyamti madbhaktesu gatesu ca "For 10,000 years of Kali-yuga, such devotees of mine will fill the whole planet. After the departure of my devotees there will only be one varna [outcaste]." (Text 59) madbhaktasunya prthivi kaligrasta bhavisyati etasminnamtare tatra krsnadehadvinirgatah "Devoid of My devotees, the earth will be shackled by Kali. Saying this, Krsna departed." (Text 60) Srila Prabhupada mentioned this same concept of the ten thousand year-period of the Golden Age in his Bhagavatam commentary (Bhaktivedanta purports) canto 8, chapter 5, text 23, as follows: "When Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared He ushered in the era for this sankirtan movement. It is also said that for ten thousand years this era will continue. This means that simply by accepting the sankirtan movement and chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the fallen souls of Kali-yuga will be deliveredŠ ...the ten thousand years of the sankirtan movement inaugurated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu 500 years ago provide the opportunity for the fallen souls of Kali-yuga to take to the Krsna consciousness movement." The fact that there will be devotees of the sankirtan movement spread throughout the planet is also an indication that there must be someone, or several personalities, who will spread the Holy Name around the world. prthivite ache yata nagaradi-grama sarvatra pracara haibe mora nama "In as many towns and villages as there are on the surface of the earth, My Holy Names will be preached." (Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Caitanya-bhagavat, Vrindavana das Thakura) It is a fact that Srila Prabhupada was the one who conducted a preaching mission beyond the borders of India, which would marvel the Vaishnava world. Many of Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers remarked, 'We could not imagine how the prophecy of Mahaprabhu was to be fulfilled.' The Godbrothers were simply wonder-struck that 'Swami Maharaja' (Srila Prabhupada) had done it! Srila Sridhar Maharaja commented, "It is wonderful that Krsna always acts through someone. Swami Maharaja has done a miracle! We are happy, we are glad, and we are proud." Locana Dasa Thakura mentions, in the beginning of his book Sri Caitanya Mangala, that in the future there will appear a sena-pati (a great general), who would cause an inundation of Krsna consciousness throughout the world. In the opinion of many devotees, that personality was Srila Prabhupada, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Yet it is doubtful that Srila Prabhupada would agree with them, as he always considered himself a humble servant of his Guru Maharaja, Srila Saraswati Thakura. Indeed Srila Prabhupada was a humble servant of his Guru, and this is simply one among his many qualifications. It is why he was chosen and empowered by Guru and Krsna to perform the service to the sankirtan movement that he accomplished. However, greatly learned scholars and pure devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who know the purport of the scriptures, have understood the 'sena-pati' in Caitanya-mangala to have been Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Between 1918 and 1936, he caused a wave of Krsna consciousness to swell up in Bengal that would indeed inundate the whole world. The sound of the kirtan raised by Saraswati Thakura conquered all ten directions, silencing the atheist non-believers, the impersonalist speculators, and the imitationist sahajiya sections of pseudo-Vaisnavas. Saraswati Thakura orchestrated a great preaching movement for eighteen years, awarding the triple staff of renunciation to his disciples and then sending these sannyasis to preach throughout India, and eventually to western countries. Before passing away from this world, Saraswati Thakura commented that he desired to spend at least ten years preaching Krsna consciousness in the western countries. This Saraswati Thakura was unable to do before his disappearance in 1936. However, through his intimate disciple, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Saraswati Thakura's last desire for preaching Krsna consciousness in the west was fulfilled. Hence, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada continued the work of the sena-pati foretold by Locana Dasa Thakura. And Saraswati Thakura's numerous disciples and grand disciples carry on the same work up to the present day. Some persons might object that we do not concede that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the sena-pati spoken of in Caitanya-mangala. Such an objection shows an utter lack of understanding of the guru-parampara and of the position of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura in contemporary society and in aprakata-lila, the eternal pastimes of the Supreme Lord. Saraswati Thakura appeared in this world by the prayer of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, who implored the Supreme Lord (Jagannatha) to send His personal representative to fulfill the prophecy of Mahaprabhu that the Holy Name would be spread in every town and village. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura prayed for the Supreme Lord to send such a personality from among His eternal associates. In response, Saraswati Thakura appeared as the fourth son of Bhaktivinode. Devotees often overlook this ecstatic piece of transcendental knowledge (mentioned above) when trying to establish the greatness of Srila Prabhupada. We should remember that the greatness of Srila Prabhupada does not reside in our concocted ideas. Certainly, it does not reside in putting Srila Prabhupada in the position of Srila Rupa Goswami (the sampradaya-acharya), or in the position of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura (the sena-pati who appeared in this world as a direct response to the prayer of Bhaktivinode Thakura). Such concocted attempts at glorifying Srila Prabhupada fail miserably, due to being tainted with the kanistha mentality of ami guru jagatguru, my Guru is Jagatguru. The actual greatness of Srila Prabhupada is beyond challenge. Yet he reserves the right of disclosure: the right to reveal his eternal identity to those who are free from envy. What Srila Prabhupada did in this world is written in eternal history. Yet to separate him from the very root of his greatness in an attempt to glorify him, denotes a lack of real transcendental vision of His Divine Grace. Such kanistha disciples are all too often found to be in the category of guru-bhogi (one who tries to enjoy the property and mission of the Guru), rather than in the position of guru-sevaka (one who serves the vision of the Guru). The greatness of Srila Prabhupada is not understood or expressed by the methods of concoction or sentimental exaggeration. The transcendental position of His Divine Grace can only be realized when one attempts to see how Srila Prabhupada was accepted (connected) in the parampara of great masters, and what qualifications earned him that illustrious position. The bona fide disciple earns this right of divine vision of the Guru through a lifetime of service and dedication at the lotus feet of the spiritual master, and not by any amount of mundane speculation. There is no other way to the truth than this.

Thats an interesting point. Could every guru in ISKCON be dishonest? What if every guru in ISKCON is not dishonest? But what if dishonesty is encouraged because the GBC bureaucracy system is run like microcosmic democracy. In other words you cover your asana by how much dirt you have on others in positions of power. This is generally the mechanism by which guru and sannyas falldowns have been covered up. The same mechanism has been at work in the cover ups of child abuse in ISKCON. Of course layered upon this mechanism is the mechanism of the "good old boys" network. There are several theories as to why this happens. The Gaudiya Maths and their spin offs believe that ISKCON leaders lack sadhu sanga or higher association. The rtviks believe it's because the ISKCON gurus and GBC are oversteping their authority. The cause can be debated. The problem is obvious. Unless, of course you are afraid to admit that "the emporer has no clothes".

Am I doomed without a Guru? At one time I thought that it was a locked in rule. But in Oct. of 2004 I learned that anything is possible in Krsna's creation. Maybe Red Sox are the exception to the rule.

From the external viewpoint what your saying has some relative truth. But the Bhagavatam deals with the Absolute Truth and it is meant for those who are nirmatsaranam, completely pure and honest. After Srila Vyasadeva compiled the Vedas and many supplementary sastras he felt depressed and unfulfilled. Then Narada came to him and explained that he had not properly glorified the All Good Personality of Godhead. After that Vyasadeva manifested the Srimad Bhagavatam. In the Bhagavatam we find that the biggest asuras of all are actually Jaya and Vijaya who were the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha. We find this theme woven throughout the Bhagavatam that the asuras can actually be covered devotees or become devotees of Bhagavan. And what was the basis of the teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu? <center> aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa-tanayas tad-dhama vrndavanam ramya kacid upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena va kalpita srimad bhagavatam pramanam amalam prema pum-artho mahan sri-caitanya mahaprabhor matam idam tatradarah na parah </center> The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krishna, the son of Nanda Maharaja, is worshipped along with His transcendental abode Vrndavana. The most pleasing form of worship for the Lord is that which was performed by the gopis of Vrndavana. Srimad Bhagavatam is the spotless authority on everything and pure love of Godhead is the ultimate goal of life for all men. These statements, for which we have the highest regard, are the opinion of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. ( Caitanya-matta-manjusa by Srila Viswanatha Cakravarti Thakura) Srimad Bhagavatam is the spotless authority on everything and pure love of Godhead is the ultimate goal of life for all men. So note that here it is stated, "Srimad Bhagavatam is the spotless authority on everything and pure love of Godhead is the ultimate goal of life for all men." (means men, women etc.) Are you aware of the pastime in Gaura lila where Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu delivers, with the assistance of Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Srila Haridas Thakur? Here is a synopsis of this pastime emphasizing the mercy of Sri Nityananda Prabhu. It is written by Sripad Indradyumna Maharaja: Deliverance of Jagai-Madhai Five hundred years ago, Sri Krishna descended as Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in His most merciful incarnation, to deliver the fallen souls of Kali yuga. Principal amongst His associates was Lord Nityananda, Who was none other than Lord Balarama, the incarnation of Anata-sesa. Even though Caitanya Mahaprabhu distributed the love of Godhead freely to any one willing to partake, Lord Nityananda was more merciful and gave His mercy even to unwilling, sinful and atheistic people. Jagai and Madhai One day Lord Caitanya instructed Nityananda Prabhu and Haridasa Thakur to go to every one's house in Nadiya and request them to chant Krishna"s name. The two great devotees eagerly set forth and began to knock on each and every door with the request, "please chant Krishna"s name, worship Krishna and teach others about Krishna." They were happily received by the pious people, while the envious would blaspheme them. Completely unconcerned by favorable or unfavorable reactions they proceeded around the town. In Nadiya there lived two very sinful brothers called Jagai and Madhai. Though they born in pious Brahman families, by bad association they had become meat eaters, drunkards, thieves and arsonists. There was no crime that they had not committed, including the most abominable sin of killing cows and Brahmans. The entire town was terrified of these two persons who seemed to be the very personification of all sinful activities. On the day Nityananda Prabhu and Haridasa Thakur were moving in the town, these two brothers, completely intoxicated were alternatively fighting and embracing each other. After observing them for some time Nityananda Prabhu compassionately decided to deliver them and thus approached them. Despite the warnings of the town people Lord Nityananda and Haridasa Thakur, approached the two drunkards instructing them to chant the holy name of the Lord. Hearing these words the two sinners looked up and seeing the two saintly figures roared in anger. They leapt up and ran to catch the two sannyasis. Playing their pastimes, the two devotees fled at the sight of the attacking brothers. Apparently terrified they shouted, "Krishna! Save us!! Govinda!," and ran. Haridasa complains about Nityananda Prabhu While running, Haridasa Thakur proclaimed that all this trouble was because he was in the company of a trouble maker, a charge that Nityananda Prabhu hotly denied. In this way, pursued by the cursing Jagai-Madhai, Lord Nityananda and Haridasa Thakur, laughed and ran. They finally disappeared into the home Srivasa Acarya, leaving the bewildered brothers searching for them in vain. The pastimes of these exalted devotees are full of sugar and spice. While they all understood each others exalted positions, they would also have many loving and teasing exchanges. This was specially true for Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita Acarya. In this mood, Haridasa went to Advaita Prabhu to complain about Lord Nityananda. He recounted how in the past Nityananda Prabhu would calmly swim the waters infested with crocodiles, or how he would milk other's cows and drink the milk, or steal their butter and yogurt leaving Haridasa to face the angry crowd. When Advaita Prabhu heard about the pastime with the two drunkards, He laughed and commented, "it is all right that these three drunkards should stay together." However in their hearts they knew that Nityananda Prabhu was only intoxicated by the love of Godhead and that Jagai-Madhai were already delivered by His mercy. Nityananda Prabhu attacked In the meantime the two brothers began to reside near Ganga where Caitanya Mahaprabhu bathed. Constantly drunk, they started harassing and terrorizing the devotees. At night, they could hear the sounds of the kirtans coming from the house of Srivasa Acarya and would playfully sing and dance with the melody. One day while Nityananda Prabhu was returning in the dark He was accosted by the two brothers. On learning His identity, Madhai became furious and struck Him with a broken earthen pot. When Jagai saw the blood flow from the wound, he became compassionate and restrained his brother. While Nityananda Prabhu patiently stood, looking at the brothers with compassion, tolerating the pain and humiliation, people ran to tell Caitanya Mahaprabhu about the incident. Hearing that Nityananda Prabhu had been hurt by the brothers, Caitanya Mahaprabhu ran towards them with the intention to kill them. He summoned His chakra which looked like death personified to the two terrified brothers. However Nityananda Prabhu quickly intervened and begged Caitanya Mahaprabhu to stop. He reminded Him of His mission to kill the sinners by saturating them with love of Godhead. Thus appeased the Lord took back His chakra. Jagai-Madhai delivered Nityananda Prabhu told Caitanya Mahaprabhu that it was Jagai who had saved Him from further harm at Madhai's hand. Hearing this Caitanya Mahaprabhu said to Jagai, "Lord Krishna be merciful to you. By protecting Nityananda you have purchased Me. You may ask any desire you have in your heart. From today on you will have pure love and devotion for Krishna" Hearing this Jagai fell at the feet of the two Lords and grasping the feet of Caitanya Mahaprabhu wept. Seeing the wonderful transformation in his brother, a remorseful Madhai begged for the mercy of the Lord. However, since he had committed the worst of all offenses, that of attacking a Vaishnava, the Lord did not even consider all his pitiful pleas for mercy. Only after Madhai grasped the feet of Nityananda Prabhu and received His mercy that Caitanya Mahaprabhu agree to deliver Madhai also. Jagai-Madhai become devotees Having received the mercy of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Lord Nityananda, both the brothers became completely transformed. They would chant 200,000 names of the Lord every day, offer every one humble obeisances and constantly berate themselves for their past sinful activities. Madhai in particular was very remorseful at the fact that he had caused physical harm to Nityananda Prabhu and would shed many tears for this. Finally he approached the Lord and begged for some act of atonement. The compassionate Lord assured him that he was completely forgiven, but if he wanted to atone for his other past sins then he could build a bathing place on the banks of the river Ganges to help people take a bath. Madhai enthusiastically built this place which still exists with the name of Madhai ghata. He would constantly be present there, humbly offering any and all services to devotees. In this way the two brothers spent the rest of their lives singing the glories of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Nityananda Prabhu. The demigods rejoice It is said that when Yamaraja asked Chitragupta, the demigod responsible for recording the sinful activities of people, how many sins had been committed by Jagai-Madhai, he was told that it would take one hundred thousand scribes one month to complete the record. On seeing Lord Caitanya take all these sinful activities into Himself and deliver Jagai-Madhai, Yamaraja fainted with ecstasy. When he was revived, he began to dance, glorifying the Lord for delivering the most fallen. Attracted by his dancing, Lord Shiva, Lord Brahma, Narada Muni, Sukhadeva Goswami, Indra and other demigods also began to dance in ecstasy at the mercy of the Lord. In this way the heavenly planets, all the way to Brahmaloka became completely immersed in the love of Godhead. Lessons in this pastime In this pastime the Lords revealed many instructions for future generations to follow. While Jagai-Madhai had committed many sinful activities, they had never offended a Vaishnava. Since Jagai had protected Nityananda Prabhu, Lord Caitanya immediately absolved him of all sinful activities and gave him Krishna prema. However since Madhai hit Nityananda Prabhu, he did not receive this mercy until he was forgiven by Nityananda Prabhu. This is in line with a lesson that Caitanya Mahaprabhu repeatedly gave to His followers that while Krishna can overlook offenses committed against Him, He will take any offense against His devotee very seriously. In fact while Caitanya Mahaprabhu readily gave the boon of devotion to Jagai, He had previously refused to give the same gift to His beloved mother, Saci Mata, because of a slight offense she had made against Advaita Acarya. Only when she begged and received the forgiveness of Advaita did she became eligible to receive this gift. The Lord also revealed that there are no material restrictions to performing devotional service. Even though Jagai-Madhai were performing the most abominable activities, even though they were unwilling to chant the holy name, they were still delivered. The pastime also revealed that the devotees of the Lord are even more merciful than the Lord Himself. While Lord Caitanya would ignore these two brothers and had nothing to do with them, Nityananda Prabhu still approached them and ultimately delivered them. The personality of Nityananda Prabhu is most bewildering by material conception. He played the role of an avadhut, one who is completely beyond the material conception of life. So saturated was He with the love of Godhead that He would often loose complete consciousness of His material body and behave in strange ways. However Caitanya Mahaprabhu strongly cautioned about committing any offenses against Him. He emphatically stated that no one can even think of approaching Radha-Krishna without having first received the mercy of Lord Nityananda, the adi-guru or the original spiritual master of the universe.

He may be blue but it's more of a blackish blue. Syam also means black, so He's mostly black. Of course not black like a human from Africa but like a dark rain cloud. I reckon I reckon.

We are a bit sidetracked. The issue is really "samadhis" immediately adjacent to that of Srila Prabhupada's. If the precedent has the effect that is only logical then the next step is murtis of ISKCON gurus showing up everywhere. If the GBC makes ISKCON law then it can always change it. This is part of the danger. Now the chief architect of the "11 appointed guru travesty" is given the highest honor posthumously. The "11 appointed guru travesty" was carried out by what Srila Sridhar Maharaja called, "dollars, diplomacy and despotism in the name of devotion, dedication and divinity." Where is the reform and the break with the darkness of period just following Srila Prabhupada's Earthly lila? If TKG's disciples were so determined to put him in so-called "samadhi" then it should not be on ISKCON property. Otherwise why did Srila Sridhar Maharaja instruct the GBC, after they consulted with him, to not accept worship from their disciples in the temples that were established during Srila Prabhupada's time? Not of this could have happen ned without the consent or will of that gentleman currently enthroned in Mayapura. The last of the self-proclaimed emporer "gurus" of the late 70's early 80's period. This is all symbolic of the fact that "guru reform" has failed in ISKCON and the dark past lives on. What a disaster!

One time I was in an ISKCON community and I was at a householders home. The lady who had young children was chastising her naked 2 yr old son. She stood there with one of her feet squarely planted on top of a picture of Krsna which was on the cover of BTG. (There were BTGs and "Krsna" coloring books all over the floor) She yelled at her son, "Oh Prabhu what are you doing you rascal! Quantity vs quality. Next in the year 2025, 100 murtis of ISKCON gurus in every ISKCON temple. the rule: One man one vote and every deceased guru must have a murti in every ISKCON temple. What's to stop it? The princible is already established. The precedent is already there.

DEEP THOUGHTS BY BEGGER: I loved Roy Rogers and Dale Evans when they were in their later years. Some times I think would have been cool if Roy Rogers would have spelled his name Raya instead of Roy. Maybe Roy is the Bengali-ization of Raya? Maybe Dale Evans was really D.D. Evans and they didn't really kill cows on their ranch. After all anything is possible! I have to admit I also loved Captain Kangaroo especially in Bob Keeshan's later years, when he was all grey. Mr. Greenjeans played by Hugh "Lumpy" Brannum was got better and better as the years went by. Kind of like Walter Brennen and Gabby Hayes. As far as all the current elderley Gaudiya Vaisnavas, certainly the ones from India who have been sannyasis for many, many years; heck what could they possibly know? Dude its just me and the books. I love old people too.

Do you mean that they should remove the "samadhi"?

Sripad B.G. Narasingha Maharaja eloquently represents the conception of our guru varga coming through Srila Sridhar Maharaja in this statement:<o:p></o:p> The measure of ones real devotion is taken from the negative feeling and not from the positive. The less you feel that you have devotion, then the more you actually have it. Or the more you feel that you have devotion, then the less you actually have it. One who thinks he is the lowest is actually the highest and one who thinks he is the highest is actually the lowest.<o:p></o:p> "I have no love or devotion to Krsna. I am so, unfortunate. If I had even a drop of pure love of Krsna I could not maintain my life in this mundane world for another moment." That should be the tenor of our thought.<o:p></o:p> The negative feelings of the devotee attract Krsna. In the negative sentiment we find that the devotee has become very meek and humble. Krsna finds this humility very relishable. And where we find the positive feeling, "Yes, I have real devotion" then the devotee becomes puffed up with false pride and Krsna is displeased.<o:p></o:p>

How about professional temple commanders in ISKCON as far back as 1978. I saw it with my own eyes. As far as Jayapataka is concerned check out his astrological future for 2007.

In 1986 the GBC came within a fraction of an inch (or a few centimeters) of ousting the remaining members of the Original 11 Appointed Guru Club. If there was perhaps one more vote in that way then we there would have been no question that Tamal would be in such a "samadhi". This is a clear indication that ISKCON never had the courage to fully break with the travesty of the 11 gurus. This enabled the legacy of hypocrisy and corruption to continue on and it is still going on. All the leaders in ISKCON including the so-called reformers have become tainted by this. Their only hope is to strongly speak out about these things.

Also Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada wrote in a letter that, "Sridhar Maharaja and another gentleman were responsible for the breakup of the Gaudiya Math". When this was brought to Srila Sridhar Maharaja's attention he remark, "oh for preaching purposes he is even abusing me" and then chuckled about it. This is the riddle, that in the midst of so many pretenders there was a real Vaisnava in ISKCON who was in fact quite senior in age and advancement in bhakti. He used the same tact as Srila Prabhupada and this is going on in the various preaching movements in the line of Srila Sarasvati Thakur until this very day. Even if we are struggling to maintain the behaviour of a madhyama adhikari we should at least learn to think like one. If fact this is the advice of Srila Sridhar Maharaja himself. Sometimes we need to retreat to the neutral position and view guru in the light of guru tattva. Of course if we stay neutral then there will be no guru bhakti for bhakti can never be neutral. The challenge is to maintain the balance and that according to the Upanisads if the famous "razors edge". The irony is that many of Srila Sridhar Maharaja's followers are unable or unwilling to view the tattva of the plurality of guru. The best explanation for this is found in Srila Sridhar Maharaja's "Sri Guru and His Grace". I can't see that followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja who are detemined, in fact hell bent on maintaining a kanistha adhikari conception are really his followers. If they are then it is in name only.

From The Golden Vocano of Divine Love by Srila Bhakti Rakskak Sridhar Maharaja Sri Gauranga-avatara Sri Gauranga-avatara has twofold characteristics: the apparent reason for His advent is to deliver the people in general from sin, and to give them the highest attainment of life—to take them towards Vrndavana, braja-lila, by giving the holy name of Krsna. This is actually the function of the yuga-avatara, the incarnation of Godhead for the age. The Lord comes to distribute divine sound and to show how one can reach the highest position through divine sound. Still, He had another purpose to fulfill. Once in Brahma's day—in a special Kali-yuga—Krsna Himself comes in the mood of Radharani to search Himself. He wants to taste the mood of Radharani, to understand the nature of Her inner hankering for Krsna, how She can taste the sweetness of Krsna by Her mood, and what is the joy She derives. Krsna wanted to have some experience of why Radharani is so mad for Him. He thought, "What is there in Me that makes Her so immeasurably mad for Me? What sweetness can She draw from Me? I can't ascertain it." He wanted to mold Himself in the mood of Sri Radhika and try to taste His own self from that temperament. So He came as Sri Caitanya. When He conceived of such an incarnation, and pro-posed His idea to Srimati Radharani, we are told that Radharani, on Her part, said, "Sometimes You will madly roll on the earth, taking My name, but I won't be able to tolerate it. I shall cover Your body with My golden form. I won't allow You to roll on the earth. I shall cover You with My embrace." So it is said by those who know the ontological aspect of Sri Caitanyadeva, "I offer my respects to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, whose mood and color is Radharani's and whose inner self is Krsna searching for Himself, tasting Himself, and trying to understand why Radharani is mad to taste Him and what sort of sweetness She finds in Him (radha bhava dyuti suualitam naumi krsna svarupam). Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu remained in this world for forty-eight years. In the last twelve years of His life. He engaged Himself with deep attention in tasting Himself. Just as everyone is mad to taste sweetness, Krsna, sweetness personified, is also mad to taste Himself. Introspection means to know oneself. Consciousness can know consciousness. And just as one can feel his own body, or consciousness can conceive of itself, ecstasy can also taste ecstasy. This is confirmed by Svarupa Damodara Prabhu, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's personal secretary, who is considered to be Lalita-sakhi, the nearest friend of Srimati Radharani in the pastimes of Krsna. He has said what Sri Caitanyadeva is: radha krsna-pranaya-vikrtir hladinisaktir asmad ekatmanav api bhuvi pura deha-bhedam gatau tau caitanyakhyam prakatam adhuna tad-dvayam caikyam aptam radha-bhava-dyuti-suvalitam naumi krsna svarupam "I worship Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is Krsna Himself, enriched with the emotions and radiance of Srimati Radharani. As the predominating and predominated moieties, Radha and Krsna are eternally one, with separate individual identities. Now They have again united as Sri Krsna Caitanya. This inconceivable transformation of the Lord's internal pleasure-giving potency has arisen from the loving affairs of Radha and Krsna." In this verse, Svarupa Damodara says that the pastimes of Radha-Krsna and those of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu are parallel and eternal. Whether winter is first and summer follows, or summer is first and winter follows, is difficult to say. Similarly, in the eternal pastimes of Ihe Lord, the movement is rolling in a circle. Therefore, Svarupa Damodara says, "Whether Caitanya-avatara is first and Krsna-avatara is next, or Krsna-avatara is first and Caitanya-avatara is next is difficult to say—both are eternal." And who is Sri Radha? She is the development of the sweetness that springs from Krsna Himself. That sweetness, in a developed form as Radha, springs up from within Krsna; Srimati Radharani is a particular potency coming out of Krsna Himself: hladini sakti. So Radha and Krsna cannot be conceived of as separate entities; the two of Them are one and the same. Still, we are told that in ancient times They divided into two. And then again, both of Them combine as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, whose luster and mood is that of Srimati Radharani and whose nature and reality within is Sri Krsna's. Fire and heat cannot be separated; sun and light cannot exist separately. They are one and the same. The Absolute Truth is one absolute substance (advaya-jnana), but sometimes Radha and Govinda show Themselves as divided and again They are united. When They are together, They are enjoying each other, and sometimes They experience painful separation without the possibility of union. That is Their d ivine nature. Sri Rupa Goswami explains this as follows: aher iva gatih premnah svabhava-kutila bhavet ato hetor ahetos ca yunor mana udancati He says that just as a serpent naturally moves in a crooked way, in a zigzag way, the nature of love is naturally crooked. It is not straight. So the concerned parties quarrel, sometimes with cause and sometimes without cause, and separation comes. Separation is necessary for the transcendental pastimes of Radha and Krsna. The Pangs Of Separation There are four kinds of separation: purva-raga, mana, prabasa and prema-vaicittya. Purva-raga means before meeting. This is found when Radha and Govinda are not actually meeting, but somehow one has come in remote connection with the other's name, portrait, or something of that nature. When Radha hears Krsna's name or the sound of the flute—no real meeting is there, but there is some connection. The sound of Krsna's flute, a picture of Krsna, or Krsna's name may bring about purva-raga. And Krsna may experience something similar by hearing the sound of Srimati Radharani's name. In this way, there are pangs of separation, but no actual meeting. The name is so sweet that He can't contain Himself; She can't contain Herself. When the holy name of Krsna enters within Srimati Radharani's ear. She becomes perturbed, thinking, "Is a name as sweet as this possible within this world?" This is Her reaction, and She experiences pain also. She feels, "I can't meet Him." A pang of separation comes within Her heart. That is purva-raga: the pain of separation that comes before meeting. Mana is another kind of separation. Mana means that when meeting, there is some difference between Them in trifling matters. This is the very nature of love. Therefore, Srila Rupa Goswami say 'that love moves in a curved way like a serpent. It is not diseased, but this is the nature of the path of love. Sometimes with a trifling cause, or with no cause, a feeling comes that, "He is neglecting Me; He wants to avoid Me." And thereby Srimati Radharani thinks, "\ don't want His company." Although cent per cent appreciation is there, still, for the time being, some opposing sentiments spring up from underground; a clash comes in the sentiments of the two, and one wants to avoid the company of the other. Transcendental Jealousy In prema-vaicittya, jealousy rises to such a degree that although They are already together, still some sort of thought comes within and makes Them think that They are far away from each other. These different kinds of separation are found only in the madhurya-rasa. Prema-vaicittya is that condition which arises when Krsna is there and Radharani is just nearby, but seeing Her own shadow reflected on the body of Krsna, She is so jealous that She thinks that it is another lady. So, great pangs of separation come within Her, and She thinks, "What is this? Another lady is there!" Her mind revolts. But Her friend, Lalita, is warning Her, "What are You saying? It is only Your own image reflected there. Can't You see it?" Then Radharani comes to Her consciousness. She particularly notices, "Oh, it is My own shadow." Then that feeling is immediately gone. This is an example of prema-vaicittya .These are extremely high transcendental subjects, and althoug h this is not to be discussed in details, this is the nature of divine love in union and separation. Both are interdependent, for one cannot stay without the other, and separation is created willingly to enhance union. Another kind of separation is called prabasa. There are two types of prabasa: one is when the separation is for a limited time; another is when one has left the country for a far-off place, as when Krsna went to Mathura to attend to other duties. These are the four types of separation pangs between the lover and the beloved. Of course these transcendental topics are very high, and we should not indulge in them carelessly, for if we project mundane characteristics into the higher plane, our future realization will be harmed. Our mundane experience will tend to take us down, so we must proceed with caution. What we conceive of at present is not to be found in the plane of Krsna's pastimes—it is a far higher plane of existence than the realm of our experience. Our vision is adulterated. We have only an alloyed conception of the original thing. We must keep this in mind, and with this caution we may deal with these things.

One was a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and one is a disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. So no confusion. Slow down and reread.

In a footnote to my last post I also see an irrational hatred by some of Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja. Although he appeared to be in Post Manifest Lila ISKCON he was very, very different. The irony is that some of this negativity comes from those who are alleged followers of Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Sri Guru and His Grace.

First of all you are putting me in a corner. You are glorifying Srila Prabhupada in such a grand way that any idea that I give can be construed, " no, no, he is not so great." In a way its like patriotism. If you rap the flag around yourself then anyone who disagrees with you becomes unpatriotic. So you are only giving the absolute concept of guru and any relativity becomes a slight. That's why a guru will quarantine his neophyte disciples from his godbrothers. So that they will be able to see their guru as absolute without the challenge of seeing the plurality of guru, which they may be unable to harmonize in their spiritual infancy. The rtvik doctrine generally carries more ideas within than just the rtvik, final order theory. Rtvik supporters tend to be xenophobic, which means an irrational hatred of those who are different. Generally xenophobic means an irrational hatred of foriegners. But here I am comparing it to an irrational hatred of other branches of the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada coming from certain neophyte persons who are marginally followers of our Srila Prabhupada. I am not saying that you are like that. From my viewpoint you are very confused. It is persons like those that I am describing who were the most intransigent opponents of the concept of guru tattva given by Srila Sridhar Maharaja in Sri Guru and His Grace. This is like some deep madness.

Soaking beads is not done in Gaudiya Math or any spin offs except perhaps by some ISKCON devotees. In fact it is strongly discouraged. Can anybody show me that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the origin of this practice?

You must ask yourself why you are the only person (as far as I know) who believes in Srila Sridhar Maharaja and sumultaneously supports the Rtvik doctrine. I understand your logic and how you apply this to the succession in the official Sri Caityanya Saraswat Math, but why are you a true lone wolf in this regard? In a side point: Many consider that present day ISKCON has transformed into a "soft rtvik" postion as oppossed to the traditional full fledged rtvikism that you espouse. Interesting enough if you look at the Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math of Govinda Maharaja you will see Srila Sridhar Maharaja's vani so stressed that indeed many of the present day followers are "soft ritviks" similiar to ISKCON. In other words although current SCSM preachers push Govinda Maharaja as acarya, the intellectual (few) disciples mostly read and emphasize Srila Sridhar Maharaja's books. In a way this supports your theory that GM is SM's rtvik. But the way Srila Sridhar Maharaja describes it, is that, "sometimes the Ganges is wide and sometimes narrow, yet it is still the Ganges". I never heard him define a guru of lower adhikar as a rtvik in any of his talks on his famous veranda. Consequently I have deep reservations about your theory.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja would often talk about the absolute conception and the relative consideration. If you feel that Srila Prabhupada is the "guru of the whole world.(jagat guru)" then that is a very nice representation of guru nistha or firm faith in guru. But we have to take into account that others who are are disciples of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers will see that their guru was the most dear to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. We see this in senior disciples of Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Daiyita Madhava Maharaja and others. While doing this they all recognize the unique and amazing, unfathomable contribution of Srila Bhakti Vedanta Swami Prabhuapada. The type of "glories" that are indicated in the phrase, "All Glories to Srila Prabhupada" are infinite nor limited. There are plenty of glories to go around to all pure devotees.