Beggar

Some senior Prabhupada disciples who were in Vrndavana during the fall of 1977 claim that there were more conversations about succession that they personally heard and that they remember a tape recorder in use at those times. Most likely someone, most likely the secretary destroyed these tapes. Maybe we can go to the secretary's "samadhi" and receive an answer about this.

I have heard that there is some record of Hamsadutta being added to the list but that there is absolutely no written or audio record of Bhavananda ever being added to the list by Srila Prabhupada. What do you know about this?

Generally a disciple should serve his gurudeva for at least seven years as a brahmacari, living in the guru's asrama. Eventually his service will become quite intimate with his gurudeva and there will be many loving exchanges. Eventually awe and reverence will fall away and his relationship with his gurudeva will become so close that the younger neophytes will think it inappropriate. Later on such a disciple will feel great separation from his gurudeva. If we don't feel separation from guru then how will we feel separation from Krsna? This is the traditional system. In a world where there are billions of people and our gurudeva is preaching on many continents etc. there will be many adjustments for time, place and circumstance. Senior godbrothers will chant on beads after initiations are granted by mail and e-mail etc. But we should still yearn for that intimate service relationship even if it comes in dreams or in another realm. Srila Sridhar Maharaja once said, "it doesn't matter who is right, it matters who is sincere". Very sincere, very nice sentiment.

This obviously wouldn't apply to Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja. He clearly wasn't a part of, "his tribe of neophyte american boys". Maybe H.H. Gopal Krsna Maharaja caught the American bug when he was living in New York in the 1970s? Generally I agree with your assesment of the "tribe". Don't forget the tribe within the tribe. It seems like the definition of a rtvik guru becomes, "a marginally qualified guru". I have always considered Srila Prabhupada's criticism of his godbrothers that they were not qualified to be acarya to be a statement made in the heat of battle during his preaching campaign. At the end of his manifest lila he explained this fully. There's much irony in the use of the titles, Srila - His Divine Grace, Sripad - His Holiness, and Prabhu - master or Lord. In one sense Phabhu is a very exalted title and was never used to refer to guru bhai and sisyas until the time of Srila Saraswati Thakur. It was reserved for Nityananda and Advaita "Prabhus". Have you ever heard, "don't call me Prabhu, I'm a Maharaja!" Very silly. The rtvik thing is basically a reaction to silly folks thinking that they are exalted souls and even more silly people buying into it. Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers were not "silly folks". There are many exalted Gaudiya Vaisnavas from Bharatavarsha living in in this world at present and some of them are young enough to be Srila Prabhupada's disciple's children.

Many instructions are for time, place and circumstance. If Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja's disciples and others see him as a pure devotee then they will believe what he has said. Who would expect otherwise. But its O.K. if you if don't have faith in that person but do have faith in Srila Prabhupada to apply the "in writing" rule for yourself. No harm.

What irony, "Krsna is the only one who will protect us from being cheated", yet according to the Gopis, He is the greatest cheater. Srila Sridhar Maharaja would say that, "Krsna is an autocrat, despot and a liar." Our only hope is that Krsna is so merciful. But who will Krsna reveal His authentic representative to? After all there is always quality and qualification such as our level of sukrti. Srila Sridhar Maharaja would quote Gita, Na hi kalyana krta, durgatim tata na gachati and give the meaning as, "no one can cheat us but very selves". Obvioulsly the ISKCON GBC became caught up in an obssesive control pattern. But what about the child abusers in the gurukulas, those ISKCON members who beat their wives? It's just the way of MahaMaya, the the way of the world. Behind the controlling tendency is only fear, bhayam. Until one is really liberated, muktir hitvanyatha swarupam vyavasthiti, we will remain in bhayam or fear. Fearlessness cannot be artificially attained by some kind of imitation. Consequently those who did a good job at imitating Srila Prabhupada really did the World a disservice not a service. The GBC since its inception has had this legacy of imitation. Some times an individual or a group needs a fresh break with the past. This almost happenned at the "Guru Meetings" of 1986, but it didn't. Now the GBC is like the Soviet Politburo in its attempted reform period of the late 1980's. The Soviet State had such a long legacy of despotic crimes against humanity, hypocrisy and corruption, that no matter how hard they tried to reform themselves they just couldn't overcome their legacy. I believe that this is the condition of the ISKCON GBC. The imposition of the eleven appointed gurus which is sometimes known as the Zonal Acarya System was really a crime against sraddha or faith on a massive scale. Go look on Hrdayananda M.s or Jayapataka M.'s (the last two) and you will still see the propaganda they were part of the original eleven gurus, "appointed by Srila Prabhupada". Now we have TKG in his "samadhi" and his "murti" forms. The Great Spiritual War Crime of 1977-78 lives on, despite the so-called reforms of the GBC.

Yes, sounds like it may be Utsaha-mayi. First to claim that anyone not going on book distribution regularly or on the "marathon" sounds like a childish statement. It is certainly an audacious statement which would only be made by a person who in their false enthusiasm as a beginner thinks that they have mastered everything in Krsna Consciousness. You may have detected that I am a fallen soul but you cannot generalize about all the devotees like this. To do so is to risk your devotional future.

Well spoken, but I don't want to chant any rounds, at least not attentively. So what to do?

Did you ever read "Journey to Unknown India" by Walter Eidlitz. Eidlitz was an Austrian Jew who went to India on a spiritual search just before the outbreak of war in Europe in the late thirties. He ended up being interned with Srila Prabhupada's German sanyassa godbrother in a British "concentration camp" for "aliens from combatant countries". Prabhupada's German godbrother preached to Eidlitz for around eightteen months. Eidlitz seemed puffed up with knowledge of impersonalism. One day when the camp was being moved by a train to another location Eidlitz suddenly broke down and more or less paraphrased Arjuna, " I am confused about life and my duty, you are in knowledge and I am now surrendering unto you". At this point the German disciple of Srila Saraswati Thakur told him, Oh, I have been waiting for so many months to tell you the solution, here is a tulasi mala, chant this mantra on it, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare/ Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, for this day you will be know as (I forget his initiated name). During the entire eighteen months he never, ever spoke, chanted or sung the Mahamantra in front of Eidlitz. He waited until there was some qualification. This was the mood and process in the Gaudiya Math. For rather extreme time, place and circumstances in the 1960's and '70s in America and other "foreign lands" Srila Prabhuapada made certain adjustments to spread Krsna Consciousness on a wide scale. This was his mercy. But the principle was always there in the background. Remember his letter to Satsvaupa Prabhu in the fall of 1971, where he wrote, "if uninitiated persons want chanting beads then they can purchase them in the temple store. No one should give anyone chanting beads except the guru." Srila Prabhupada took the risk that some would express the misconceptions that you are writing in the future. But by his being all-knowing by the Will and Power of Krsna, he knew fully well that all these misconceptions would be cleared up in the early 1980's by Srila Sridhar Maharaja. I know that you have read the books that are coming from Srila Sridhar Maharaja's talks. Why not just submit to these conceptions and express them to others. There are many other Acaryas coming in the line of Srila Saraswati Thakur who say the same exact thing in other words, if you cannot accept them then just stick with Srila Sridhar Maharaja's words. The "rtviks in the mahamandala" talks may not even be real, which is the opinion of many. So then if you want it first hand then listen to the mp3 recordings of Srila Sridhar Maharaja's talks.

As soon as your born they make you feel small, By giving you no time instead of it all, Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all, A working class hero is something to be, A working class hero is something to be. They hurt you at home and they hit you at school, They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool, Till you're so crazy you can't follow their rules, A working class hero is something to be, A working class hero is something to be. When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years, Then they expect you to pick a career, When you can't really function you're so full of fear, A working class hero is something to be, A working class hero is something to be. Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV, And you think you're so clever and classless and free, But you're still peasents as far as I can see, A working class hero is something to be, A working class hero is something to be. There's room at the top they are telling you still, But first you must learn how to smile as you kill, If you want to be like the folks on the hill, A working class hero is something to be. A working class hero is something to be. If you want to be a hero well just follow me, If you want to be a hero well just follow me. John Lennon

Srila Prabhupada as we all know said at least 16 rounds. This means that we should chant more rounds if we can. Of course in ISKCON under Prabhupada's living guidance the stress was on service centered around preaching as it was in Gaudiya Math.

I thought we were supposed to consider our own minds venomous and ignorant. I also thought that when a teacher or preacher criticizes others it is for their benefit or the benefit of the students or disciples. The only qualification is that he practices what he teaches and preaches, and has the quality of karuna or mercy. If we go out on a limb and assume that we are so qualified without looking at our real thoughts and behavior then we may just be headed for the ground below. If we are already on the ground then we can use that very ground to push ourselves up and try to walk the path again. But at least if we are face first in the mud we need to find out how and why we got there. Otherwise what's the use of our masquerade? Maybe it feels good to believe that we are saved or liberated when we are still fallen souls. It's a common strategy to make it through the day. Illusion upon illusion upon illusion etc. etc. That's why it's harder to wake someone who is pretending to sleep. I should know about all these things because I have first hand experience. We all do it and I have become expert at it. But sometimes we have to get a grip. So why not? Come on now ladies and gentlemen, prabhus and d.d.s lets get a grip!

Triage BY: JAGABANDHU DASA (The Sampradaya Sun) Oct 29, FORT WHITE, FLORIDA (SUN) — I see dead people. And dying people. Suffering and sad people. Everywhere. Others are disposed to pre-occupy the mind with considerations of ecclesiastical authority and who shall wield such absolute might. And who will yield to It. Meanwhile, countless suffering souls meet with unfortunate ends without having the Fortunate Confluence of Mahaprabhu's Munificent Influence and Supremely Auspicious Association with the Holy Sound Vibration of Sri Hari. May we be reminded that Srila Saraswati Thakur declared that the only thing lacking in the world was Hari-katha or real Krishna Consciousness. Mahaprabhu tells us that we must wake up! And then wake others up! Serve the high souls and then I will develop a real taste for Harinam. I will then become consumed by helping other jivas by giving them this taste for Sri Nam Prabhu. This is real Krishna Consciousness. And It's for all souls. Not just some fortunate few (who grow fewer by the day.) Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur sings that the Holy Name is not just for a certain class of people, but rather for all people, for all time. There is nothing else. If I don't to this particular conviction, my actual inner progress will be slow and uncertain. May we consider Srila Saraswati Thakur's admonitions about over-reliance on administrative and institutional legislative solutions in the apparently feeble ongoing attempts to govern, check or control the Divine Flow of Mahaprabhu's Mission of Mercy. Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada perfectly instructs all souls for all time that it is not a question of my guru, or your guru or anyone else's guru. Sri Guru is not a sectarian consideration but rather one of universal application. There is only one guru, manifest in an infinity of forms for the intrinsic eternal benefit of all jivas. Sri Guru is not constrained by anything but the Divine Will. And by the Supreme Lord's Grace, Sri Guru may become manifest to any soul, anywhere, anytime. From the Scriptures we can know that based on real inner hankering for actual deeper meaning and the subsequent genuinely inquisitive spirit of the jiva, God provides the facility of a real teacher, Sri Guru. Asking progressively pertinent questions of Sri Guru is a rare moment for the subjective evolution of the jiva's consciousness. Really listening to the answers is rarer still. At first, we were seekers of Truth. And so by God's Grace, we met Sri Guru. May we again become such earnest seekers and Sri Guru will again manifest, by God's Grace. No doubt, Sri Guru had disagreements with his spiritual siblings. May we remember that he emphasized that it was only over varying methods of mixing and spreading Krishna Consciousness. He perfectly demonstrated as the Perfect Teacher for all souls for all time, that rather than wasting time arguing the various points of ecclesiastical administrative authority, he felt the great need to fulfill the two-fold obligation of both serving His Divine Master and reaching out to the countless suffering souls, forgetful of their own intrinsic Divine essence. He risked everything to do so. His real followers will naturally follow suit. From Mahabharata we can know that the only news is that all are rushing into the jaws of Death. Again and again. The real Vaishnavas by dint of real inner awakenment, are perpetually prepared to continually risk everything to create a positive revolution in the consciousness of the countless souls suffering in this dire predicament. Can you hear their screams? Or shall we merely harden our hearts in a spiritually sterile vault impervious to anything but selfish concerns, fraught with oblivious disdain to the great pain of the suffering jivas? Please consider that when the Hare Krishna movement became the Hare Krishna "religion", the real spiritual dynamism necessary for continued forward motion was stopped and it became a cult (defined by thoughtlessness, as are all "cults"), mired in bureaucratic boondoggles and internecine administrative power struggles, much to the great loss of the world. Alas. Again. Sri Guru said this. And Sri Guru said that. What did He mean? Humbly, Jagabandhu Das

I thought that I was making a personal attack on my mind. There I go thinking again. Our only hope.

Guruvani, there are so many points that you have made that could ingite all sorts of controversies. The reason is that much of what you say is congruent with the "rtvik" conception. The opposite idea is that we need to approach a perfect Krsna Conscious Master who is presently in physical form. Because devotees have different realizations on these points the controversy will go on forever, with no resolution, no matter how many sastric quotes either side can give. I wonder what is your or anyone's intention? Why raise these points? Is it really so important that all devotees will be like minded? In a way I'm wondering about my own intentions on so many posts. I could start quoting so many slokas and purports to put forth a counter view but quite frankly, I'm worn out from the whole thing. Besides I have a very weak attraction to the Holy Name and most of the time I'm drowning in Maya. I could cry out to a living acarya, Srila Prabhupada or Srila Sridhar Maharaja or even Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, but I only do that when I'm suffering the reactions to my attempts at enjoying this world. Most of the time I secretly conspiring to find a drop of happiness through my senses and mind. I am so unfortunate that I want to argue endlessly about who is a real guru, who is the best guru, do we really need a living guru etc. etc. etc. Of course, what does it really matter when I can come on these forums (oops, fellowship) and pretend to be a senior devotee situated in transcendental knowledge. I do this because I am so puffed up and callous that I find the instructions of Sri Krsna pertaining to controlling the senses and mind to be elementary and boring. I think that I'm in the line of the Rupanugas but I am resistant to Srila Rupa Goswami's first instruction in Sri Upadeshamrta, vaco vegam, manasa krodha vegam. I think that there is some way that I can circumvent it. In this way I commit so many offense in my mind and heart that I am becoming like a lost soul and ordinary sense enjoyer of this world. This is my sorry plight.

...and then more mercy to realize the internal meaning of the guruvani, so our so called preaching will become real preaching.

I can't see that you have given any evidence concerning this bold assertion. I am waiting for Ksamabudhi to give an authorized refutation of this but he's probably too busy watching the English Professional Football (soccer) League. He sees the Vedas everywhere, even with them Gators! How 'bout then cow herd boys!

Nei baba, Why's a brother to hate on too many Vaishnava's. Here's some pure hate from Srila Sridhar Maharaja: "If someone says that he has reached that standard, and that there is nothing further to be realized, we offer our obeisances to him from far away. We are not worshipers of that. If one thinks that he is finished, that he has attained perfection — we hate it! Even an acharya should consider that he is a student, and not a finished professor who knows everything. One should always think of himself as a bona fide student. We have come to realize the Infinite, not a finite thing. So, this fight between finite and Infinite knowledge will continue always. Should we think, "What I have understood is absolute." No! We have not finished with knowledge. Still, we must know. Brahma himself says, "I am fully deceived by your power, Master. I am nowhere." Anyone who has come in connection with the infinite cannot but say this: "I am nothing."

It was a rout. Diksha Gurus 6 Ritviks 0. I'll stick with the diksa and siksa systems. Ritviks don't stand a chance.

<!-- END TEMPLATE: newreply_reviewbit --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: newreply_reviewbit -->Sounds like a convoluted and unneccessarily complex way at arriving at a simple point," If he follows the orders of his guru to be ritvik, then he is acharya". If a disciple perfectly follows the orders of his guru then he is an acharya. Then what's the profound nature of the "ritvik appointment"? There wouldn't be any, so whats the point? Like I always say "better to be a monitor guru than a Monitor Lizard for Monitor Lizards speak with a forked tongue.

Think about it. If your logic holds true then you are in a superior position to Govinda Maharaja. At least you could potentially come to the postion of love of God and be a regular guru or acarya. But according to your reasoning Govinda Maharaja would be forever stuck in the ritvik position, blocked by decree from obtaining a postion that even you have potentional to attain. Does that make sense? Not to me. Maybe then we could accept the GBC postion on the origin of the soul. Since we've been to the material world and feasted on stool in hog bodies we will never fall down again. But in the GBC conception, the internal devotees of Krsna Loka could fall and eventually become stool eaters in some life. So this makes us better that the parishads. Whew! What a close call. If I was a sincere servitor I may also have been sent to the land of ritvks for eternity. I guess I caught a break this time!

So much contradiction. Why split hairs over ritvik or diksha guru or acarya? If one is setting the example of bhakti and seva in the present, why would the past be such a large consideration? Why would "api cet sudaracaro" not apply? We don't want our past to be considered in the land of mercy but we want it applied to others. Sounds a bit hypocritical. Live and let live is the best policy. Why should it be open season on those whom many consider their guru? (in many camps). Best to error on the side of caution, lest we fall off the precipice of vaisnava aparadha.

The last post was beggar, forgot to log in.

Interesting, I guess I've been fooled all along. I thought that Sridhar Maharaja's conception of spiritual reality was that it is dynamic as oppossed to matter which is static. Based on his conception the jiva soul is certainly dynamic, except for a person who Sridhar Maharaja said is a transcendental personality! It's amazing how statements out of context can be twisted to express an absurd point. And I am not a sychophant of Govinda Maharaja by any stretch of the imagination.

Oh fie on me! What a sinful fool and rascal I am. I thought that, "Swarupa Damodara Prabhu is just a scientist and a neophyte bhakta and we are both disciples of Srila Prabhupada". Why couldn't I see how dear he is to Srila Prabhupada? Ten years later I disrespected him in my mind for I thought that he was an ordinary "ISKCON guru", never considering his birth and background in the Kingdom of Manipura, the land where Srila Narottama das Thakur so firmly established Krsna Consciousness. I thought that his disciples were foolish for accepting him. Many years later after learning of the glories of Srila Goura Govinda Maharaja, I was told that he remarked that Sripad (Srila) Bhakti Swarupa Damodara was "pure". When I learned of it, I was taken aback, I had to reconsider my own fault finding attitude. Why did I laugh when Western sanyassis imitated Maharaja's Manipurian accent in jest? Now that I look back on the last twenty-five years and I consider Srila Bhakti Swarupa Damodar Maharaja's activities and compare them we mine, I can see that I have remained a "monkey devotee". How could I be such a fool? How could I have been so blind? Why did I not take advantage of his association and let my mind drag me down? Why do I have to wait until a great soul leaves this world to come to this point? Srila Bhakti Swarupa Damodara Maharaja ki jaya!