Beggar

Rents and mortgages are about 3 or 4 times what they were in the 70s in North America, Europe, Australia and other places and that is accounting for inflation. Could you imagine opening a temple in the 70s if your temple rent was multiplied by 3 or 4? That exact situation exists at the only Narayana Maharaja temple in the U.S. in the Venice section of Los Angeles. I have heard from reliable sources that their mortgage for an old church is $8,000 per month. That's a huge burden. Also people don't move in temples the way they did in the 70's. In the late 60's through the mid 70's many young people in the West were not only spiritual seekers but also quite desperate. Another point is that the mainstream Western culture has changed over the last three or four decades and many vegetarians and of course contemporary devotees have merged back in to the dominant culture. Also in the late 60's and early 70's if you dropped out of society it was much easier to get back in. Now days there's more people and much more competition and everything is very expensive. There is also the factor that employers now days really want to know what you have been doing the last several years. If you have no work history it can be very difficult especially for males to re-enter the workforce. These are all factors that make people who have some experience with the devotees reluctant to "join" in the same way as during Prabhupadas time. And of course many are aware of all the "spiritual Politics". Of course there are always exceptions but joining temples is much less common in this era.

But the bottom line is that its not in Prabhupada's books, nor is the "10,000 year fallacy". And there is no evidence that Prabhupada ever said, " Preaching is the essence, books are the basis, utility is the principle and purity is the force." What this really shows is that Trivikrama Maharaja and GBC followers like him for what ever reason are not willing to verify whether Prabhupada actually said or wrote the "preaching is the essence..." slogan. Your darn right its Curiouser and curiouser. And just after Prabhupada departed, Ramesvara who was in charge of the North American BBT published, the small book, "Preaching is the Essence" futher cementing what was really an unverified rumor that the "preaching is the essence..." slogan was something spoken directly by Srila Prabhupada.

Nara Narayan das Visvakarma is an early Prabhupada disciple from the first San Francisco Temple. He had much personal association with Srila Prabhupada. Visvakarma is the architect of the demigods. Prabhupada called him Visvakarma because he designed some the early Ratha carts. Nara Narayan has always been a "Prabhupadanuga" type although he is self styled and wouldn't call him self that. He has a brother named Makhanlal who joined just after him and was the St. Louis temple president in '74-'75.

Not all those who use what appears as GM terminology are Narayana Maharaja followers. There are several other large GM branches preaching in the West. Actually in this contemporary era even some ISKCON devotees use what appears to be GM terminology since it really comes from Caitanya Caritamrta.

I also found it on a The Sri Guru is Always Manifested thread from 12/14/06 www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/spiritual-discussions/<wbr>432104-sri-guru-always-manifested-6.html - 154k - Supplemental Result - The real answer if that the words vapuvada and vapuvadi are eternal. Sometimes they are manifest and sometimes they are not.

This is the only authoritative post quoting Srila Prabhupada that anyone including you has given: You cannot refute this with any other quote because it doesn't exist therefore your bogus proposition has been clearly defeated. But you don't even care even if its not a matter of opinion like the Rtvik issue but rather it is in black and white right before your face on your computer screen.

Definitely, look at the last half of the posts on the thread called "preaching". gHari posts a Folio conversation with Srila Prabhupada on 02/25/77, eight months and a few days before Prabhupada leaves this world in Vrndavan. Its clear that the "purity is the force, books are the basis..." thing is first being introduced. And NOT by Prabhupada. cbrahma then comes back and posts that he knows that Prabhupada really said this and that its in several BBT books which are edited lectures and talks published after 1977. After this cbrahma continues to insist that Prabhupada "said" the "purity is the force..." thing. When asked to quote Prabhupada and prove his point cbrahma replies, "There are more important places to put my energy at this point." What can I say? I know. This guy's got no integrity as a poster.

Saddam's ghost says: Go take a Bathe in Newnans Lake!:P

Its really how compromises with general integirty developed after the Krsna Consciousness Movement was transplanted to the West.

Man, I really feel sorry for you guys but we were young, stupid and naiive so we let the GBC and bogus Zonal gurus get away with it. And of course, what goes on today isn't a whole hell of alot better in ISKCON. But you have to remember that some of us had the experience of Srila Prabhupada on the Vyasasan. Maybe you should avoid ISKCON temples altogether if going there just messes with your mind.

The way I see it is that Prabhupada knew what Krsna wanted him to know, when he wanted him to know it. There was another side of Prabhupada that was extremely insightful into the character of those around him. He knew who he could engage in helping him spread the Krsna Conciousness Movement. He also knew who would give him problems. Kirtanananda helped Prabhupada in the beginning, then gave him some trouble, then helped again --then big trouble. Prabhupada must have known that Kirtanananda could have gone either way (Yeah, yeah I see you smiling-- I don't mean AC/DC or do I?). Just like all of us can go towards Krsna or away from Krsna. Also you could certainly say that Prabhupada knew that Jamadagni and Kanapriya had at least latent offensive tendencies. They certainly expressed those tendencies in the conversation with Prabhupada. Theres more to it that we didn't see in the words like their tone of voice and body language. I'm sure that Prabhupada saw certain latent tendencies in Kirtanananda but he was hoping that Kirtanananda would take seriously the process and be purified. He wanted that all of us would take to Krsna Consciousness seriously and be purified and he still does. And he's still our "Ever well wisher".

Mr. Guruvani and Mr. Shakti fan, what gives gentlemen? Are you guys going to argue this till your 90 yrs. old? (if you live that long). You're both in it for the ego rush. Hey, I've got an idea, instead of debating rtvik on the internet why don't you both sit down to a game of chess. If you don't know how to play its not that hard to learn. Then the winner can buy the loser a veggie meal. Why not? Let us know how it turns out.

I knew both Kanapriya and Jamadagni and I knew them both years later. Yes, I believe that they both became offensive individuals. But I don't see them as revealing this through their words to Prabhupada in this conversation. It wasn't really what they said to Prabhupada, it was their underlying attitude. And Prabhupada could see right through their facade and even see into their futures. I see Srila Prabhupada as challenging them to surrender. Even if they didn't surrender then or even now there is always the future, even in another body. Otherwise what hope is there for any of us?

Look I'm open either way. I just want to know. The Prabhupada conversation gHari has posted on #33 on this thread is all that I have ever seen. It is also quoted by Satsvarupa Maharaja in "The Lilamrta" but no reference is given. Most older non-GBC supporting devotees do not accept the post Prabhupada lila BBT Publications: "Sri Namamrta", "Preaching is the Essence", "The Spiritual Master and Disciple", "Varnasrama-dharma" and "Siksamrta" as being reliable because of who edited them. If I turn out to be wrong no biggy. But I don't think that you've really given us anything solid like gHari has on #33. Narasingha Maharaja is an old Prabhupada disciple who took sannyasa from Sridhar Maharaja. He's got a huge ego but he's usually extremely careful when he puts up factual things in publications or on the internet. (factual not opinions or interpretations) So I really don't mistrust what I read on post #19. I mean, what if it turns out to be anecdotal and the fact that many devotees accept it turns out to be meaningless. It might just be the case. Can you handle it?

Please post the quotes.

Yeah, Jamadagni and Kanapriya were then what I've become now. I'm just good at faking it. But still, even in my present condition, I would back off when I saw Prabhupada's mood. Some devotees use that transcript to condemn those guys forever. The condemners should remember, what comes around goes around and judge not lest you be judged.

Kind of like the "Law books for the next 10,000 years" statement not actually being in Prabhupada's books or anywhere in the Folio. All we are left with is what Satsvarupa remembers he thought Prabhupada say. Just a bunch of hearsay.

I don't believe that cbrahma has clarified this. Maybe I'm missing something. We will have to wait until he posts again.

He never said this? Well goolleee! Shazam!

How do you know that they were distributing books?

In 1971 I read that a university study showed that ISKCON devotees were the most educated amongst all alternative religions in America. In 1980 a similar study showed that amongst all alternative religious groups in America ISKCON devotees were the least educated. Beginning in 1973 there was a trend to stop preaching at schools and colleges and scam people at Airports and other public facilities to give money and take books that they would often just throw away. By '75 that trend was fully established as the main way ISKCON would approach the public.

I had the exact same experience. I was a fringy living outside in Berkeley California ISKCON temple. One morning I woke up very early and chanted some rounds and then drove over to the temple to catch the last half of the morning program. The Bhagavatam class was cut short so there would be enough time to announce the "Sankirtan Scores". Suddenly the temple president who was giving the class transformed into some kind of TV game show host and announce the "Lakshmi point" scores. (Lakshmi points=dollars). The whole thing seemed so "Corporate America" and like you did I wondered how it had now come to this? <o:p></o:p> There were even drum rolls on the mrdangas and the kartals clanged as the scores were announced. I thought it was strange that the leading Lakshmi point collecters were young attractive women and that those women were all members of what was called "Jiva's Party". Actually I had heard rumors that Jiva's party was really quite a party. I mean I had to bloop to party but he didn't. Any way I thought I was in The Twilight Zone, I couldn't believe it was really happening; It was just so surreal. One of the reasons I woke up and chanted and went to the temple was that I was feeling very guilty about being in Maya. I felt that I was about to undergo some kind of strong test since Srila Prabhupada had left this world about 6 or 7 weeks before. Yes, my Twighlight Zone experience at the Berkeley ISKCON temple was during the very end of December 1977.

No, you can't always get what you want You can't always get what you want You can't always get what you want And if you try sometime you find You get what you need</pre>

Message from Saddam just before his execution: I've been reading both of your posts on this an other threads here in my "death" cell. You are both driving me nuts. I can't wait to die. Alluh Akbar, Your friend Saddam:eek:

Say what? The philisophical ideas are good here, but it is mixed with straight up guru (posthumous) promotion. Wait til cbrahma sees this, he might flip out. Just what camp is Bhagavat das really in? His own mind?