Bhakta Don Muntean

He went to the vet today [Friday] - he had an infection abscess - from a bite in the neck from Kurma - Kurma can be kinda aggressive - but he is doing better now - it was drained and cleaned and he was given meds. He hears the chanting all the time - all these cats do - they find it calming. Thank you for your prayers... yer servant, BDM

Quote: 4. Give the boys at Halliburton 90-billion dollar contract to patch hole in ozone 3. Switch to celsius so scorching 98 becomes frosty 37 Reply: See me Smile! Hari Bol

My reply: I would say that Prabhupada’s statements impart more direct implication - by virtue of the sheer volume of his literary achievements – and that is directed at modern humanity – I think that Prabhupada offers us the practical realization of Bhativinode's teachings. Does your case have other materials as noted – or this one essay? -------------

[my reply] Quote: …concocted religion…The followers of this religion have no tendency to worship God selflessly… Reply: If “the follower” is in the mode of ignorance - there is sure to be concocted religion. – no matter the background - just see He says - “the followers” - that is in keeping with what I say Prabhupada has said: Prabhupada was most often critical of the followers - not the path. Original sin isn’t a Hebrew teaching – that is a later teaching one that comes from the zealot Saul turned St. Paul. The truth is karma and transmigration ARE accepted and taught in the pages of Talmud – and were accepted by early Christians. So I wonder when we read this: “…They imagine God created the first man and placed him in a pleasant garden with his wife. Then God forbade the man to taste the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Following the evil counsel of a wicked being the first man and woman tasted the fruit of the tree of knowledge, thus disobeying God's command. In this way they fell from grace and were expelled from that garden and thrown into this material world which is filled with sufferings. Because of their offence, all other living entities are offenders from the moment of their birth. Not seeing any other way to remove this offence, God himself took birth in a human form. He took on his own shoulders the sins of his followers, and then died. All who follow him shall easily attain salvation, and all who do not follow him will fall into an eternal hell. In this way God assumes a humanlike form, punishes himself, and liberates humankind. An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this…” Do we not thus consider that these various garden of Eden points are not accepted as literal by Hebrews. In fact there is a growing movement within Christianity to restore the ‘allegorical interpretation’ to its proper place – as we see a long time extroverted use of literalism with many Christians. That is not dealt with in Bhaktivinode’s essay – are you building your entire case on this one essay? Are there more statements from him on this? This mentions Christianity not Judaism – why is that? ---------

[by guest] Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur writes about the Bible 07/29/05 03:20 AM Living in a material world (from Sri Tattva Viveka) by Sri Bhaktivinode Thakur kecid vadanti visvam vai paresa-nirmitam kila jivanam sukha-bhogaya dharmaya ca visesatah (24) Some philosophers say God created this world in order to make a place where souls have an opportunity to enjoy happiness or become pious. (24) Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur: Some philosophers say God created this world to give us an opportunity to enjoy pleasures. They think that after sinlessly enjoying different luxuries and pleasures, people will praise God and perform pious deeds, praising God for his mercy towards them. However, if God really had wanted to create this material world for the soul’s pleasure then surely He would not have created it as it is. This world is a place full of problems, troubles and disasters. If we consider whether or not this world is a place of enjoyment, we cannot but think this world is filled with many horrible defects. God is all-powerful and whatever he wishes to happen is done at once, so surely he would have created the material world as something that functions in a better way if he was making a world where souls will enjoy pleasures. He would have made it as something faultless. And if he created the material world as a place for souls to perform pious deeds, then surely He would have made it very different from the way it is. Of this there is no doubt. Why is there no doubt of this? Because in the material world pious deeds are not easily performed by every soul. adi-jivaparadhad vai sarvesam bandhanam dhruvam tathanya-jiva-bhutasya vibhor dandena niskritih (25) Some philosophers say that because of the first human being’s sin all the other human beings are imprisoned in the material world. Then, punishing Himself for their sins, God delivers the living entities from sin.(25) Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur: Thinking about the virtues and faults of this world, some moralist monotheists have concluded that this material world is not a place of unalloyed pleasures. Indeed, the sufferings greatly outweigh the pleasures. They have decided that the material world is a prison created for the punishment of humankind. If there is a punishment, then there must be a crime that has been committed. Indeed if there were no crime then why would there be any punishment? What crime did the living creatures commit, that they are born into a world of suffering? Unable to properly answer this question, some men of small intelligence gave birth to a very wild idea. They imagine God created the first man and placed him in a pleasant garden with his wife. Then God forbade the man to taste the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Following the evil counsel of a wicked being the first man and woman tasted the fruit of the tree of knowledge, thus disobeying God's command. In this way they fell from grace and were expelled from that garden and thrown into this material world which is filled with sufferings. Because of their offence, all other living entities are offenders from the moment of their birth. Not seeing any other way to remove this offence, God himself took birth in a human form. He took on his own shoulders the sins of his followers, and then died. All who follow him shall easily attain salvation, and all who do not follow him will fall into an eternal hell. In this way God assumes a humanlike form, punishes himself, and liberates humankind. An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this. janmato jiva-sambhavo maranante na janma vai yat-kritam samsritau tena jivasya caramam phalam (26) These philosophers say that the soul comes into existence at birth. After death, he is not born again on earth. After death he attains either heaven or hell as a result of his actions in that one lifetime. (26) Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur: To accept this concocted religion one must first believe in some rather implausible things. The living entity's life begins at birth - before birth the living entity did not exist. After death, the living entity will no longer stay in the world of material activities. Only human beings have souls - other creatures have no soul. But only extremely unintelligent persons believe in this religion. In this religion the living entity is not an eternal, spirit being by nature. God has created the living entities out of matter. Why are the living entities born into very different situations? Some are rich and healthy, some are poor and sickly. The followers of this religion cannot say. Why is one person born into a house filled with sufferings while another takes birth in a house filled with joys? One is born into the house of people devoted to God while another is born in a wicked atheist's family. Why is one person born in a household where he is encouraged to perform pious deeds, and he then goes and performs pious deeds. But another person is born in a family of atheists and is placed in a situation where he is encouraged to sin? He sins and becomes bad, because of his circumstances. The followers of this religion cannot answer all these questions. Their religion seems to say that God is unfair and irrational, for it is God who decides what sort of life someone will have. Why do they say that animals have no souls? Why don’t birds and beasts have souls like the human beings? Why do the human beings have only one life? Bcause of their actions in that one life people are rewarded with eternal heaven or punished with eternal hell. Any person who believes in a truly kind and merciful God will find this religion completely unacceptable. atra sthitasya jivasya karma-jnananusilanat visvonnati-vidhanena kartavyam isa-tosanam (27) These people say that by doing work and by accumulating knowledge humankind can make improvements in the material world and in this way please God. (27) Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur: The followers of this religion have no tendency to worship God selflessly. In general their idea is that by doing work and by gaining knowledge one should work to improve the material world, and in this way please God. By building hospitals and schools, and by doing various philanthropic works, they try to do good in the world and thus please God. Worship of God by performing work (karma) and by engaging in studies and learning (jnana) is very important to them. They show no capacity to understand pure devotional service (suddha-bhakti), which is free of fruitive work and philosophical speculation. Worship of God done out of a sense of duty is never natural or unselfish. "God has been kind to us, and therefore we should worship Him." These are the thoughts of lesser minds. Why is this not a good way to worship God? Because one may think, "If God is not kind to me, then I will not worship Him anymore." In this way one has the selfish, bad desire to get God's kindness in the future. If one wishes that God will be kind by allowing one to serve Him, then there is nothing wrong with that desire. But the religion under discussion does not see it in that way. This religion sees God's kindness in terms of one's enjoying a happy life in this material world. Ha ha ha [re: Guest] 07/29/05 03:30 AM What crime did the living creatures commit, that they are born into a world of suffering? Unable to properly answer this question, some men of small intelligence gave birth to a very wild idea. They imagine God created the first man and placed him in a pleasant garden with his wife. Then God forbade the man to taste the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Following the evil counsel of a wicked being the first man and woman tasted the fruit of the tree of knowledge, thus disobeying God's command. In this way they fell from grace and were expelled from that garden and thrown into this material world which is filled with sufferings. Because of their offence, all other living entities are offenders from the moment of their birth. Not seeing any other way to remove this offence, God himself took birth in a human form. He took on his own shoulders the sins of his followers, and then died. All who follow him shall easily attain salvation, and all who do not follow him will fall into an eternal hell. In this way God assumes a humanlike form, punishes himself, and liberates humankind. An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this. You could hardly put it more clearly than that, could you? The story of Adam and Eve, and the serpent in the garden, and the story that God needs to be crucified to remove our "sins", are all just stories that men of small intelligence have imagined Bhaktivinode [re: Guest] 07/29/05 03:36 AM Edit Reply Why do they say that animals have no souls? Why don’t birds and beasts have souls like the human beings? Why do the human beings have only one life? Bcause of their actions in that one life people are rewarded with eternal heaven or punished with eternal hell. Any person who believes in a truly kind and merciful God will find this religion completely unacceptable.

I just want to say that I am so very pleased to offer profound obeisances to the moderators of this message board at IndiaDivine - good souls - who really do deserve all blessings for their spirit of fairness! BDM

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Dear gHari: Quote: I Assume This is a Continuation of the Locked Thread Reply: Apparently. Quote: two paragraphs that reached my ears tonight Reply: It certainly was that at some level - and I hope all invloved in the events leading to the lock can appreciate these important nectarian words you've posted. I know I do... My humble dhandhavants! yer servant,

Quote: souls of men were perishable Reply: Just like the rights of men... Here is something nice from Talmud: A man should always desire that his neighbor may profit by him, and let him not strive to profit by his neighbor. Let his words be pleasant with the children of men if they shame him, and let him not shame them in return. If they deceive him, let him not deceive them in return, and let him take the yoke of the public upon his shoulders, and not impose it heavily on them in return. If--which God forbid--thy neighbor has done thee an evil, pardon him at once for thou shouldst love him as thyself. If one hand is accidentally hurt by the other, should the wounded hand revenge its injury on the other? And, as urged before, thou shouldst rather say in thine heart, "It is from the Lord that it came to thee; it came as a messenger from the Holy One--blessed be He!--as a punishment for some sin." [Kitzur Sh'lh, fol. 9. col. 2.] The empire of Rome was, some think, so designated, because it strove with all its might to drag down the worship of God to the worship of man, and resolve the cause of God into the cause of the Empire. During the time of the second Temple Persia domineered over Israel for thirty-four years and the Greeks held sway a hundred and eighty. [Avodah Zarah, fol. 9, col. 1.]

Quote: The Semitic people believe in a formless, impersonal Absolute: "You may not see the glory of my face, for man may not see me and live". - Exodus 33, vs 20 Reply: I know what is now taught - but these texts are clear - like this one you've quoted - "the glory of my face" - 'formless' means no face. I am of the opinion that these types of texts do have a literal interpretation - Torah and Talmud teach that God is a person with a literal form. BDM

Yes that is true - but I think they meant their contemporary world - the Semitic world. On and on it goes - the point is?

Quote: the prophets of the Semitic religions did not believe in metempsychosis(reincarnation) and instead they "wrongly considered" that the eternal soul was created via "material congregation". Reply: Well I take this information: "The whole world once believed that the souls of men were perishable, and that man had no pre-eminence above a beast, till Abraham came and preached the doctrine of immortality and transmigration." [Talmud, Ibid., fol. 171, col. 1.] "The Holy One--blessed be He!--often brings affliction on the righteous though they have not sinned, in order that they may learn to keep aloof from the allurements of the world and eschew temptation to sin. From this it is plain that afflictions are good for man, and therefore our Rabbis, of blessed memory, have said, "As men bless with joy and a sincere heart for a benefit received, so likewise ought they joyfully to bless God when He afflicts them, as, though the special blessing be hidden from the children of men, such affliction is surely intended for good. . . . Or most souls being at present in a state of transmigration, God requites a man now for what his soul merited in a bypast time in another body, by having broken some of the 613 precepts." [Talmud, Kitzur Sh'lu, p. 6, col. 1.] "Rabbi Isaac Luria was once passing the great academy of Rabbi Yochanan in Tiberias, where he showed his disciples a stone in the wall, remarking, "In this stone there is a transmigrated soul, and it cries that I should pray on its behalf. And this is the mystic meaning of (Hab. ii. 11), 'The stone shall cry out of the wall.'" [Talmud, Ibid., fol. 11, col. 2.] Clearly that is what the hebrew teaching is.

I would say that Prabhupada’s statements impart more direct implication - by virtue of the sheer volume of his literary achievements – and that is directed at modern humanity – I think that Prabhupada offers us the practical realization of Bhativinodes teachings.

I would say that Prabhupada’s statements impart more direct implication - by virtue of the sheer volume of his literary achievements – and that is directed at modern humanity – I think that Prabhupada offers us the practical realization of Bhativinodes teachings. Does your case have other materials as noted – or this one essay?

Quote: …concocted religion…The followers of this religion have no tendency to worship God selflessly… Reply: If “the follower” is in the mode of ignorance - there is sure to be concocted religion. – no matter the background - just see He says - “the followers” - that is in keeping with what I say Prabhupada has said: Prabhupada was most often critical of the followers - not the path. Original sin isn’t a Hebrew teaching – that is a later teaching one that comes from the zealot Saul turned St. Paul. The truth is karma and transmigration ARE accepted and taught in the pages of Talmud – and were accepted by early Christians. So I wonder when we read this: “…They imagine God created the first man and placed him in a pleasant garden with his wife. Then God forbade the man to taste the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Following the evil counsel of a wicked being the first man and woman tasted the fruit of the tree of knowledge, thus disobeying God's command. In this way they fell from grace and were expelled from that garden and thrown into this material world which is filled with sufferings. Because of their offence, all other living entities are offenders from the moment of their birth. Not seeing any other way to remove this offence, God himself took birth in a human form. He took on his own shoulders the sins of his followers, and then died. All who follow him shall easily attain salvation, and all who do not follow him will fall into an eternal hell. In this way God assumes a humanlike form, punishes himself, and liberates humankind. An intelligent person cannot make sense of any of this…” Do we not thus consider that these various garden of Eden points are not accepted as literal by Hebrews. In fact there is a growing movement within Christianity to restore the ‘allegorical interpretation’ to its proper place – as we see a long time extroverted use of literalism with many Christians. That is not dealt with in Bhaktivinode’s essay – are you building your entire case on this one essay? Are there more statements from him on this? This mentions Christianity not Judaism – why is that?

I'm just a lab 'kaba' - So what are you going to eat me big kitty? Please meet my BIG Kitty Friend: To be most serious though - that Temple is a cool place!

Quote: What is all this talk about anyhow? Reply: Read back and see the original posting [07/21/05 08:33 AM] of Suchandra about the Talmud - all this part of this discussion is a defense of Talmud and Torah and the Hebrew Tradition. It has made for some interesting discussions – the interaction is quite heartfelt - that is for sure... Quote: But now it seems that you are arguing that the prophets of Israel were really in touch with God, and that they could understand His wishes. Reply: Surely they were - but the post interpolation prophets knew Satan was a fiction that was interpolated as an allegory - they understood that he wasn't real. But the prophets were most certainly connected to and - serving the Mission of Vishnu/Yahweh/Allah. Quote: …the religion of the Bible is a religion of people who are following the path of karma Reply: That is a matter that is to be understood from the perspective of the modes of nature the particular seeker is in. I will try to present more on this later. Quote: But the followers of Abraham's religions…speak negatively of Sri Krishna. It is a fact. Reply: If you read through these particular messages - you'll see the answer - and again the modes of material nature are quite active on everyone – no matter their faith or race or gender or species no one is exempt - except God. These modes of nature spin everything and everyone we see according to three basic qualities. Are perchance - you a Christian - who respects that Krishna is God? BDM

Quote: I first met Srila Prabhupada face to face in 1972... It seems so long ago, now. I must say, however, that at some point I realized Srila Prabhupada is not omniscient. And of course, this is a widely understood fact within ISKCON now. I have faith in Srila Prabhupada but I don't necessarily agree with every statement he made. Especially when his statements are contrary to the direct statements of other Acharyas, such as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, who said some very definite things about Christianity. Reply: I have a very close associate - who is also an original Prabhupada disciple - she does not agree with your quantification of Srila Prabhupada's message. Of course - that's your interpretation [for whatever reason] – but - clearly Prabhupada expected us NOT to reject ANY part of his Teachings. He knows that it is kuli yuga - and His preaching is ‘so ordered’ - whether it was preached to “hippies” or not - isn't a substantive point to be considered. I pray you've not made some offence to Prabhupada [in a little way] -.as you’ve had personal dharshan with Him - “…so long ago…”. You could have it every day ever fresh – if it seems so long ago then something is interrupting your association with Srila Prabhupada. I beg to know - who are you - why haven't you stated that? As for the divergence of points about Christianity preached by Srila Prabhupada as contrasted to those of Srila Bhaktivinode - well I wonder - is it you who seeing contradictions - based on personal preferences - as opposed to seeing the modes in action - in terms of the modes of each particular follower of any particular faiths. If there is a disparity in understandings - it should be really understood in context of the modes of material nature. Otherwise any evaluations are limited. Prabhupada was most often critical of the followers - not the path. I beg to hear of your Transcendental Interactions with Prabhupada…

Quote: Many outsiders consider Shiva to be satan - even has a pitchfork Reply: In fact - Lord Shiva is God - in contact with His Material Energy...

http://pub19.bravenet.com/forum/1582971275/show/97683

Quote: Is this Vaishnavism? No. Reply: Of course - that wasn't the question or the point being discussed...

I posted: If we need an alternate historic example - let's look at how the white christians looked at the non-christians all around the world - look how everyone not white and saved - was a savage - everything about them their culture and spiritual understandings - were viewed as savage and satanic - and to be thus changed or - wiped out. Just see the desolation of entire peoples - based on 'this form' of christianity. Reply: I should have said SOME "...white christians..." - I did say "this form of" - so I am not castignating all christians [past and present] in this light. I just wanted to say that. BDM

“Rabbi Elazar, the son of Rabbi Shimon, once vindictively caused a man too be put to death, merely because he had spoken of him as Vinegar the son of Wine, a round-about way of reproaching him that he was the bad son of a good father, though it turned out afterward that the condemned man deserved death for a crime that he was not known to be guilty of at the time of his execution; yet the mind of the Rabbi was ill at ease, and he voluntarily did penance by subjecting himself in a peculiar fashion to great bodily suffering. Sixty woolen cloths were regularly spread under him every night, and these were found soaked in the morning with his profuse perspiration. The result of this was greater and greater bodily prostration, which his wife strove, as related above, day after day to repair, detaining him from college, lest the debates there should prove too much for his weakened frame. When his wife found that he persisted in courting these sufferings, and that her tender care, as well as her own patrimony, were being lavished on him in vain, she tired of her assiduity, and left him to his fate. And now, waited on by some sailors, who believed they owed to him deliverance from a watery grave, he was free to do as he liked. One day, being ministered to by them after a night's perspiration of the kind referred to, he went straight to college, and there decided sixty doubtful cases against the unanimous dissent of the assembly. Providential circumstances, which happened afterward, both proved that he was right in his judgment and that his wife was wrong in suffering her fondness for him to stand in the way of the performance of his public duties….” [ Bava Metzia, fol. 85, col. 2.] What is the point? Do you see the point? Not that I am saying these extremists who cursed Mr. Sharon are of the nature of “Rabbi Elazar”! Nor am I saying that Mr. Sharon is deserving of a curse. The point is - you render a surface statement and - force a far-reaching interpretation. When theist posted the point about cruel king vena and - the cursing - that led to his end – that was a very good point – like the point noted here. First point to see about any curse – it must be deserved in the karma – or it will not work. That fact is noted in the quote above. We have only to look into such things and compare them openly – within context and - we can see thus see these common patterns present in all the five traditions. “…Then the angel of death was sent for to bring him up, but he was unable to approach him, because the Rabbi's lips never ceased repeating the law of the Lord. The angel of death thereupon assumed the appearance of a troop of cavalry, and the Rabbi, apprehensive of being seized and carried off, exclaimed, "I would rather die through that one (meaning the angel of death) than be delivered into the hands of the Government!"…” [bava Metzia, fol. 86, col. 1.] I like that one. These angels of death are not demons – despite how you make it sound. Are the agents of Yamaraja demons? If you read Talmud in proper context you would see that Yamadhutas are - the angels of death. "And the Lord put a word in Balaam 's mouth" (Num. xxiii. 5). An angel took up his seat in Balaam's throat, so that when he wished to bless, the angel permitted him, but when he desired to curse, the angel tickled his throat and stopped him. "Word" in this place means simply an angel; as it is said (Ps. cvii. 20), "He sent His word and healed them." Rabbi Yochanan says, "There was an iron nail in his throat which permitted him when he wished to bless, but rasped his throat and prevented him when about to curse.Word" in this place means only an iron nail; for it is said (Num. xxxi. 23), "Every thing (or word, for the original has both meanings) that may abide the fire." Ibid…." [Midrash Shemoth, chap. 23.] Here are two nice Talmudic Proverbial Sayings “Who gains wisdom? He who is willing to receive instruction from all sources. Who is the mighty man? He who subdueth his temper. Who is rich? He who is content with his lot. Who is deserving of honor? He who honoreth mankind. Despise no man and deem nothing impossible; every man hath his hour and everything its place.” ------------------------------ A very wealthy man, who was of a kind, benevolent disposition, desired to make his slave happy. He gave him, therefore, his freedom, and presented him with a shipload of merchandise. "Go," said he, "sail to different countries, dispose of these goods, and that which thou mayest receive for them shall be thy own." The slave sailed away upon the broad ocean, but before he had been long upon his voyage a storm overtook him; his ship was driven on a rock and went to pieces; all on board were lost, all save this slave, who swam to an island shore near by. Sad, despondent, with naught in the world, he traversed this island, until he approached a large and beautiful city; and many people approached him joyously, shouting, "Welcome! welcome! Long live the king!" They brought a rich carriage, and placing him therein, escorted him to a magnificent palace, where many servants gathered about him, clothing him in royal garments, addressing him as their sovereign, and expressing their obedience to his will. The slave was amazed and dazzled, believing that he was dreaming, and all that he saw, heard, and experienced was mere passing fantasy. Becoming convinced of the reality of his condition, he said to some men about him for whom he experienced a friendly feeling:-- "How is this? I cannot understand it. That you should thus elevate and honor a man whom you know not, a poor, naked wanderer, whom you have never seen before, making him your ruler, causes me more wonder than I can readily express." "Sire," they replied, "this island is inhabited by spirits. Long since they prayed to God to send them yearly a son of man to reign over them, and He has answered their prayers. Yearly He sends them a son of man, whom they receive with honor and elevate to the throne; but his dignity and power ends with the year. With its close his royal garments are taken from him, he is placed on board a ship and carried to a vast and desolate island, where, unless he has previously been wise and prepared for this day, he will find neither friend nor subject, and be obliged to pass a weary, lonely, miserable life. Then a new king is selected, and so year follows year. The kings who preceded thee were careless and indifferent, enjoying their power to the full, and thinking not of the day when it should end. Be wiser thou; let our words find rest within thy heart." The newly-made king listened attentively to all this, and felt grieved that he should have lost even the time he had already missed for making preparations for his loss of power. He addressed the wise man who had spoken, saying, "Advise me, oh, spirit of wisdom, how I may prepare for the days which will come upon me in the future." "Naked thou camest to us and naked thou wilt be sent to the desolate island of which I have told thee," replied the other. "At present thou art king, and may do as pleaseth thee; therefore send workmen to this island; let them build houses, till the ground, and beautify the surroundings. The barren soil will be changed into fruitful fields, people will journey there to live, and thou wilt have established a new kingdom for thyself, with subjects to welcome thee in gladness when thou shalt have lost thy power here. The year is short, the work is long: therefore be earnest and energetic." The king followed this advice. He sent workmen and materials to the desolate island, and before the close of his temporary power it had become a blooming, pleasant, and attractive spot. The rulers who had preceded him had anticipated the day of their power's close with dread, or smothered all thought of it in revelry; but he looked forward to it as a day of joy, when he should enter upon a career of permanent peace and happiness. The day came; the freed slave, who had been made king, was deprived of his authority; with his power he lost his royal garments; naked he was placed upon a ship, and its sails set for the desolate isle. When he approached its shores, however, the people whom he had sent there came to meet him with music, song, and great joy. They made him a prince among them, and he lived with them ever after in pleasantness and peace. The wealthy man of kindly disposition is God, and the slave to whom He gave freedom is the soul which He gives to man. The island at which the slave arrives is the world; naked and weeping he appears to his parents, who are inhabitants that greet him warmly and make him their king. The friends who tell him of the ways of the country are his "good inclinations." The year of his reign is his span of life, and the desolate island is the future world, which he must beautify by good deeds, "the workmen and material," or else live lonely and desolate forever.”

Have you read the pages on this site dealing with 'left handed tantrics' - I was quite disgusted by that - what is this tantrics - but a vedic [?] form of witchcraft? For every supposed ugly point you levy at this group - I counter it with a similar point from our tradition. All five world faiths have these kuli yuga issues - but you are not being fair to that fact. As for actually being able to summon a demon etc., I do not think it's all that possible in all the cases we hear of it going on. To do that one must be qualified - just like with everything really occultic. Would you say that mother kali is a demon? Her servants may be demoniac - but is She a demon too? No. Many outsiders consider Shiva to be satan - even has a pitchfork and snake around his neck - of course when you tell these same people that the snake is God - they really freak - so if you still don't get the point - then really - I think it's because you are rejecting it in favor of bashing the jewish tradition.

I think that that is obvious - if you look into what Krishna says about worshippers in the three modes - you will have your answer. These extremists that are trying to curse sharon are not any better than any other extremist - this practice isn't a part of the mainstream. Anyone who would do that is a fool - and I am sure that this process they used is some hodge-podge nonsense. In any case you again failed to go over any of my points in your reply - you again brought up another point - so what is the point? This discussion is one sided. So I think you can go on ignoring everything - or you can at least address the points Prabhupada has made....

I was intending to reply this post - I am dealing with so much that I get side tracked - but I would like to say I thought your post was nice - actually I like your general outlook as I've seen it posted within these discussion srings. We will have to converse more! I ask - could you please pray to Lord Dhanvantari for my one cat - his name is Narasingha - he has devloped some tumor like infection under his jaw and near his throat - just over the last four days - please pray that he gets well soon - he is such a sweet soul and he is in pain - I cannot afford to take him to vet. I am going to try concentrated soy powder in [offered to Prabhupada] lactose free milk - that may help. Do you have another "fluffy thing" living next to you now - I do hope so. So in any case - may Krishna bless you and yours! Your Servant, BDM