Bhakta Don Muntean

Here is an example of the Jewish Torah [Midrash] commentary: A Gentile once asked Rabbi Yoshua ben Kapara, "Is it true that ye say your God sees the future?Yes," was {p. 242} the reply. "Then how is it that it is written (Gen. vi. 6), 'And it grieved Him at His heart'?Hast thou," replied the Rabbi, "ever had a boy born to thee?Yes," said the Gentile; "and I rejoiced and made others rejoice with me.Didst thou not know that he would eventually die?" asked the Rabbi. "Yes," answered the other; "but at the time of joy is joy, and at the time of mourning, mourning?So it is before the Holy One--blessed be He!--seven days he mourned before the deluge destroyed the world." http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/hl/hl92.htm Use of the word gentile must be understood in context - much like our use of the word karmi and mleccha.

Why should I not find God in all traditions - why do I have to think that He offered Himself through only Islam? In your understandings of Islam - do you think non-mulims shall enter eternal paradise? Can you see that Krishna gave the ultimate surrender instuction: "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear." [bhagavad Gita 18.66]

Hari Bol! What's insulting is your incomplete and slanted facts. Are you fixated on this Satan concept? Do you need to think he is real? As a devotee you know the reasons for the 'satanic like' world we see - it is kuli yuga and - it even at times seems that the Personality of Kuli has hijacked the modes of material nature and kidnapped maya into his service. But there is no satan - I see no value in ascribing to an idea whose origins are fiction. You are a sincere devotee i can see that - but how broad minded are you? I never meant to insult you when I posted that your posting was slanted with anti-semitic reasoning. You haven't cut and pasted any of my reply and debated it? I have to ask - why not? So in any case let's get over this point that I called you a name - let's discuss the points. You know that ZOHAR is not considered scripture. Did you read the short history lesson about the frankists? Isn't it part of good debate to try to debate? So tell me why weren't the ideas you posted [not saying they are your ideas] anti-semitic? YS,

http://img../p/2005-5/1005212/Narahariformailout.jpg Please cut and paste to your address bar to see a nice Lord Narahari

I found this for you - it talks about the history of this ZOHAR text: "The Jews were not exempt from disputes with scholars of Islam also during the first years of the latter's history, but these disputes differed from those with the Christians in that they did not involve the Jews in calamities. In addition to the oral disputes, many controversial books appeared between the ninth and the sixteenth centuries, among which were the books of Saadiah the Gaon against the Karaites, which the Karaites answered, not with arguments, but with scoffing. A great quantity of books were issued by the Karaites in which they ridiculed the Rabbis, in particular Saadiah the Gaon, who exposed their weaknesses. Like service was performed by the book of Samuel ben Chaphni Hakohen, entitled "To Exalt the Value of Theological Studies," against whom the Karaite Samuel ben Jehudah Eben Agia wrote a pamphlet under the title "Strenuous Denial." R. Jehudah Halevi's "Hakusri" and Maimonides' controversial letters also had for their aim the strengthening of the foundations of the creed. But the strife raged with the greatest intensity in Spain in the middle of the twelfth century. First appeared the book on "Sepher Habrith" by R. Joseph Kimchi. Following this came controversial works by R. Jacob b. Reuben, R. Moses b. p. 100 [paragraph continues] Tikun, and R. Moses b. Solomon, of Saliri, the title of the latter's book being "A Word of Faith," in which he records disputes with Christians; by R. Jechiel b. Joseph, of Paris, R. Nathan, of Upsala, R. Joseph, and R. Meir b. Simeon, in his book "The Battle of Merit," in which are related his disputes with the Archbishop of Narbonne; and by R. Mordecai b. Tehosaph in his book, "The Strengthener of Faith," written against the Christian, Paul Christianus, who had held many controversies with Ramban and others. In reply to the book of Abner of Burgos, who adopted the name of Alphonse of Valladolid, and who wrote much that was hostile to Judaism, appeared works by R. Isaac Ebn Palkara, as well as by R. Joseph Shalom, under the title of "A Reply to Alfonso's Writings." How great a degree of tolerance the Jews manifested in this controversy may be seen from what Moses of Narbonne wrote of Abner, his former friend--namely, that he was intelligent and virtuous, but dispairing; unable to endure the calamities heaped upon the Jewish people; not content with the peace to his soul, but seeking also worldly happiness; and, reading in the stars that the Jews destiny was to suffer and bear trials, he fell into the error of thinking that they would never again be strong as a nation, and counselled them as he himself had done, to accept Christianity, not submit to their fate. R. Moses de Torsilla, also wrote a book entitled "Aid to Faith" (1374), consisting of seventeen chapters, in the form of a dialogue between professors of the two religions. In all these books it is declared that the Hagadas of the Talmud are not authoritative but are to be regarded barely as fiction, and as devoid of any sacredness. In Germany also appeared in defense of Judaism the work "Book of Victory" (Sepher Nitzachon), by the excellent writer, R. Lipman of Muelhausen, which appears to have made so deep an impression that the Bishop of Brandenburg, Stephen Batekei, felt it necessary to reply to it. Lastly may be mentioned the two disputes which took place between the Rabbis and the Frankists in 1756-1757, at the command of Bishops Dembovsky and Micholsky, in Kamenitz, Podolsk and Lemberg, cities of Poland. These terminated the disputes which the Jews were compelled to hold with their opponents in the presence of the people and dignitaries. They p. 101 were distinguished by the fact that the Frankists impeached the authority of the Talmud on the strength of the Midrash of R. Simeon b. Jochai, termed "Zohar," which they considered sacred, while they regarded the Talmud as profane. These disputes were further distinguished by the circumstance that the founder of the Hasidismus, R. Israel baal Shem Tob, was elected as the chief disputant to represent the Rabbis, forced to dispute with the Frankists in Micholsky's presence. The Frankists were an offshoot of the sect of the false Messiah, Shabattai Zvi, who produced a storm throughout the whole world in the year 1654. One Jacob Frank, a Polish Jew, accepted Islamism at Salonica, where he joined the sect of Shabattai Zvi, who were seeming Mohammedans and were called Dauma. In 1754 he arrived in Poland and set to work, with the assistance of two Rabbis, Moses and Nachman, who accompanied him, to revive the creed of Shabattai Zvi. The followers of Shabattai Zvi, who still remained in Poland, received him with open arms, and entered upon an open propagation of the mischievous teachings. The Jews thereupon informed the ecclesiastical authorities of the country of their activity, which so alarmed them that they hastened to the Bishop and asserted their belief in the Trinity, and that they were not Talmudic Jews, but followers of the Zohar--"Zoharites." They petitioned Bishop Dembovsky of Kamenitz to force the Jews to dispute with them and thus afford them opportunity to prove that the only true belief is in one God in three persons, incarnate in the flesh, and the teaching of the Talmud all vanity, etc., a rehabilitation of all the old slanderous charges. The Bishop ordered the dispute to begin in May, 1754; and the Jews, not appearing at the appointed time, incurred a heavy fine therefor. In June of that year there assembled at Kamenitz thirty Rabbis, from whom were chosen as disputants R. Leib Meziboz, R. Bar Jozelovitz, R. Mendel Satanow, and R. Joseph Kremenetz; and about the same number of Frankists, headed by Leib Krim of Nadvarna, Soloman Shur of Rahatin and Nachman of Bushk. The pleading of the Rabbis that in the Zohar and in all the books of Israel there is no hint of a Trinity, which was purely an invention of the Frankists themselves, was of no avail, for Dembovsky decided against the Jews and fined them 5,000 gold guldens, to be paid to the Frankists, and also directed the p. 102 Jews to dispute with the latter whenever called upon; one hundred and fifty gold guldens were likewise to be paid by the Jews for the repair of the Christian Cathedral at Kamenitz. All copies of the Talmud were to be burned, although the Jews appealed to the King, August III., against this decree of Dembovsky, claiming that they possessed the right, accorded to them by previous rulers, to print the Talmud; and although they were sustained in this contention by many princes of the kingdom, yet, owing to the political and religious turmoil then existing throughout the kingdom, the king or his minister, could give no heed to the matter, and the Jews were forced to submit to the decree of the bishop. Shortly thereafter, however, Dembovsky died a sudden death (the result of an injury received, it is related, from a fire which consumed the Talmud), and was succeeded by Labinsky, who showed no favor to the Frankists. The Jews, with the help of the government officials and an expenditure of money, effected the expulsion of the Frankists from their residence near Kamenitz, for being neither Jews nor Christians, and they suffered persecutions. They were compelled to shave part of their heads and half of their beard; insults and indignities were heaped upon them, and many fled to Turkey. But even there they found no rest; they were relentlessly persecuted, and Elisha Ratin, one of their leaders, was beaten to death. They therefore betook themselves to the frontiers between Poland and Turkey, in constant peril of their lives from the people of both nations. When their condition became unbearable, they turned again to the king, and begged him to restore to them the freedom granted by Dembovsky. In this they succeeded; the king permitted them in May, 1757, to settle undisturbed in the province of Podalia. And thus they returned to Poland, in poverty and rags. In this state of degradation Frank advised them, in order to better their condition, to embrace Christianity. They therefore, in January, 1758, sent a petition to the Bishop Labinsky by six of their leaders, asking that they be received into the Catholic Church and be granted permission to dispute with the Talmudic Jews, who drink the blood of Christian infants, etc. Labinsky replied that it was not in his power to improve their material condition; their acceptance of Christianity could affect only their spiritual welfare. They again addressed themselves to the king, in May p. 103 of the same year, but their petition was not answered. Labinsky suddenly resigned his office and Micholsky was chosen his successor. The latter exhibited a great zeal for proselyting, and the Frankists hastened to present their petition to him, requesting permission, before being baptized, to dispute again with the Jews. Perhaps, they urged, they might succeed in convincing the Jews of their great error and madness and in inducing them to accept Christianity too. Micholsky acceded to this request, and ordered the Jewish Rabbis to assemble at Lemberg on a day appointed by him. At the time set for the dispute there came in sorrow to Lemberg, forty of the chief Rabbis of Poland, at their head Israel Besht of Mezibuz, and chose as disputants three of them--Besht, the Rabbi of the district, Haim Rapoport, and R. Bär Jozelovitz. The disputants for the Frankists were Frank himself, Leib Krim, and Solomon Shur. The dispute lasted three days, beginning June 23, 1758, and the hopes of the Frankists for a victory were shattered. Though Micholsky and many Polish nobles sided with them, they failed to prove that the Zohar contained anything that favored their religion. The judges, even, utterly disagreed with the distortions to which they subjected the passages of the Zohar and Kabbalistic books. The Jewish Rabbis departed in peace, without being fined, and the petition of their adversaries, that a district in Poland be set apart for their dwelling, was refused, and they were invited to receive baptism. Thus ended favorably for the Jews the last of these peculiar disputes. The Jews made efforts to induce the Frankists to become Christians as soon as possible, that there might in future be no relationship, between them. In this they succeeded, and since that time, between the Frankists, as Christians, and the Jews there has been nothing in common in either religious or secular matters. " http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t10/ht118.htm

After-Note: I thought that I was responding to the original individual who commented - I see now I replied to another person] QUOTE: imho that can be easily seen as calling people names and using sentiment as substitution for logic. if you see every criticism of Talmud (and there is A LOT of stuff there that any reasonable person may find objectionable) as anti-semitism, then there is no room for intelligent discussion. anyway, like I said earlier, we are wasting precious time on such inferior sources of knowledge. REPLY: I WAS NOT CALLING YOU NAMES – nor was I using - ‘sentiment as substitution for logic’! Did you not understand my posting? I think you are saying that the Talmud is really a hate literature – and without doubt; some might find [as in your words] a lot of stuff…objectionable – but - why is it worse [in your opinion] when we see that it is Hebrew teachings – when it is also found in ALL Traditions – as noted in my first reply posting [?]. Please try to see what that post is advancing - a limited interpretation! For example – what is your central point in your posting to me? Is it that you think Jews are bad for having such [ideas] texts in their writings – or - they are bad - for not rejecting their entire tradition – what is it? You say that - “we are wasting precious time on such inferior sources of knowledge.” – then you missed the point. Lets’ go back to your one point – you are using Talmud to try to convince me that Hebrews now believe in Satan? By posting that quote about the origin of souls? Well in proper context – we understand that the point of that quote cannot be correct – as there simply is no Satan. Also - to say that all hebrews have had the same ideas all through time is incorrect and narrow - and there are examples in the Bible of false worship entering their Tradition in times past - could some of the Talmud verses you speak of - be discussing that? Thus there is no satanic realm – the facts are the facts – Satan is a fictional interpolation. Without doubt after the interpolation - some Hebrews chose to believe in an actual Satan - St. Paul of Christianity is one example. That these ideas appear in later texts - has to be understood in proper context. In any tradition we can see that later books may seem to contradict earlier texts – if we take a proper interpretation - in context - with regard to time and circumstances – then we have a basis to form an opinion – I do not how much more clear I can make that. I assume that you are a follower of the Vedic path – have you ever preached to people some of those verses that describe how ignorant people are now – just how do 'meat-eaters' see our teachings? What about those vedic verses that state humans without God Consciousness are no better than animals – how would modern secular humanists interpret that - just see - do you get the point? When I started reading Bhagavad Gita [translation by Prabhupada] I was quite offended by many points I read – thinking - ‘oh how nasty for him to say like that’ – and many other people I’ve encountered have noted that as well - in their condemnation of our traditon. So to the point – in your own tradition there are a great deal of points ‘in the books’ – which outsiders might find objectionable if taken only on the surface – without regard to context. You cannot miss the point about - time and circumstances and context – if one disregards that then we really do miss the point! You accuse me of not using logic – but I think that the logical answers I gave in my first posting were not rebutted by you – you only claimed that I called you names - instead of answering – and that isn’t true. You seem fixated on these [so-called] Talmud quotes – so - if we are to discuss them - then first – can you show us where you got them? Who the translator was etc., let’s start there – in fact – why not find them - on the online Talmud link I posted – let’s start there – then we can test the veracity of the translation in your quotes. Do know that I said that the interpretations were anti-Semitic – not that I said that you are an anti-Semite - do check my words! I do not know you – so how could I know if that were true? If you are – that is your business too – but I would ask you to just see what Krishna and Srila Prabhupada say [that might help here]: “One who sees the Supersoul in every living being and equal everywhere does not degrade himself by his mind. Thus he approaches the transcendental destination.” [bG 13.29] "…Unfortunately, especially in this age of Kali, everyone is an atheist, people do not even believe in God, what to speak of following His words. The words nija-veda-patha can also mean “one’s own set of religious principles.” Formerly there was only one veda-patha, or set of religious principles. Now there are many. It doesn’t matter which set of religious principles one follows: the only injunction is that he must follow them strictly. An atheist, or nastika, is one who does not believe in the Vedas. However, even if one takes up a different system of religion, according to this verse he must follow the religious principles he has accepted. Whether one is a Hindu, or a Mohammedan or a Christian, he should follow his own religious principles. However, if one concocts his own religious path within his mind, or if one follows no religious principles at all, he is punished in the hell known as Asi-patravana. In other words, a human being must follow some religious principles. If he does not follow any religious principles, he is no better than an animal. As Kali-yuga advances, people are becoming godless and taking up so-called secularism. They do not know the punishment awaiting them in Asi-patravana, as described in this verse.” [srimad Bhagavatam 5.26.15, Purport]

Hari Bol! Well you've posted an interesting post - too bad it's slanted toward [an un-devotee like] anti-semitic thinking. As Srila Prabhupada says: "...A Little knowledge is dangerous. Then finished..." [interview on December 31, 1976] Quote: in some ways the Jewish Talmud is considered even more important to the present Jewish faith than the Hebrew Scriptures Reply: That is a generalization. However there is a kernal of reality to that - in the same way that we view Vedanta - as opposed to the original four vedas. We see that the Vedanta is a latter commentary and is essential for anyone wanting an understanding of the original four vedas. As you know there also is Srimad Bhagavatam - that is called a natural commentary on the Vedanta. So primary scriptures with latter commentary isn't something unique to the Hebrews. What I see is that you are setting a subtle idea that the teachings of the Torah are very much neglected in favor of [so-called] lesser books like the Tulmud. Again that is a generalization - and unfair to the truth. Quote: The Talmud says, non-Jewish souls come from the three satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness. The murder of Gentiles (non-Jewish) by Jews is said by the Talmud to be a holy sacrifice to God (Zohar, III, 2276 and I, 38b and 39a) and the killing of Gentiles (non-Jewish) by beheading is especially recommended (Pesachim, 49b). Maimonides says, "Do not have pity for them. Show no mercy unto them. Therefore, if you see one in difficulty of drowning, do not go to his help - it is right to kill him by your own hand by shoving him into a well or in some other way." Reply: Well that is a case in point of my problem with your posting. That is an anti-semitic interpretation of something that may not even read that way. But let's assmue [for sake of debate] that it 'does' read that way. What does that really mean? You know that all religious groups have some negative ideas and prejudices recorded in their holy books [and latter writings] - in one place - or another. Of course - we have to see that these writings are very ancient and - that in the bygone eras - all of humanity was acting very much exclusive [chosen by providence] and issues of land and territory control - flame-up all thorough the last 5000 years of kuli yuga time. I do not think that this ancient Talmud is saying these things - and if they did - you know as well as I - we are to - 'understand a thing based on the time and circumstances in which it exists' - not that everything is so 'simple' and 'slanted'. If we need an alternate historic example - let's look at how the white christians looked at the non-christians all around the world - look how everyone not white and saved - was a savage - everything about them their culture and spiritual understandings - were viewed as savage and satanic - and to be thus changed or - wiped out. Just see the desolation of entire peoples - based on 'this form' of christianity. All thoughout history - it seems that the hebrews are treated very poorly - they have been put on - for a long time - who cannot see a very real struggle for existence - an understanding person sees that this might account for seemingly 'negetive ideas' that might appear in the commentary known as Tulmud. Just see as an another example - how hindus and muslims - due to this type of kuli yuga karma - also have hate for each other - and their respective 'latter writings/teachings' may reflect some of that hate. You see the important part to understand is that it is KULI YUGA - the age of quarrel - and in this age - all the faiths and races are tainted with passion and ignorance and the spirit of quarrel. Why are you holding up the hebrews as something of an oddity in this regard - like they are the only ones? Certainly - to any sincere Hebrew - Torah 'is' more important than the Tulmud - but no doubt - one has to understand EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE in CONTEXT. I am not intending to be rude - but if we are ever going to see a world free of all the hell and quarrel [survive kuli yuga] - we have to understand that; not everyone will understand [nor will many even want to] but - if enough of us do - in all the faiths - then we can avoid fanning the flames of passion and ignorance in our dealings. For a devotee - there are no illogical points - when we understand proper context. What we read and hear in any holy books has to be understood in context - as to whether it's a literal point - an allegorical point - a mystical point - a homeletical point - and of course - understanding of time and circumstances - must impact ones interpretations. Would you want people to learn of your faith from an antagonist - or a sincere devotee? To that end - be fair to others - here is a nice link to an online Tulmud - I know I shall study it - [in proper context] - and I encourage others to do the same. It's not healthy to form our ideas based on the twisted interpretations of hate mongers. http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm This is a quote from that site: "...A search for Talmud at Google will turn up hundreds of thousands of hits, a depressing number of which are to anti-Semitic sites...." Please visit that site... YS,

This whole idea is a moot point - there was/is no lucifer no satan no marduk - nothing like that - it is all a persian myth - without doubt - it reads like a good story - but 'that' is all that it is - a story. There was no real background incident which started this story. It is myth - later interpolated into the biblical tradition - as an allegory. Thank you for your posting...

We need to Test our understandings...

Here is what Prabhupada might say with respect to this movie: "...Yesterday Janardana took me to a nice church...a very nice wooden structural workmanship with colorful figures and windows, decorated with nicely painted pictures about the Crucifixion of Lord Jesus Christ. Everything [about that] was grotesque. Generally the...religion depends on this Crucifixion incident in the life of Lord Jesus Christ, but I think depiction of this incident simply stimulates the tensions of difference of opinion, and difference of religious principles, between the Jews and the Christians..." [Letter dated July 07, 1968]

"...If so desired, we can worship the picture of Lord Jesus Christ who we admit as the son of Godhead. We worship all worthy sons and servants of God..." [Letter October 01, 1969] We must see that this specific statement isn't like those found in Prabhupada's Books and Lectures. If something applies to 'everyone everywhere' - then it's going to be mentioned in the Books and in the Lectures and in the Conversations - and maybe the letters too. We have to see the scriptures and the teachings of the acaryas in proper perspective - we do not read one statement and build a theory out of that - no - we have to do our home-work - and part of this task is to understand the proper 'context' of what we read and thus 'hear'. This particular quote was stated to a devotee - in a letter. So as a letter - it is on surface - less a general prescription and - more a time and circumstance decision Prabhupada was expressing. Let me explain. In the letter we note that Prabhupada was seeking to acquire a large number of old 'redundant' Church's - for use as as new Temples - so he was instructing the devotee coordinating this acquisition - to speak with the Archbishop of Canterbury - and to encourage them - he stated that they could place and worship these pictures of Lord Jesus [in these proposed centers]: "...And if the Archbishop of Canterbury gives us one, two, three, four, up to the point of all the redundant churches, I shall turn them all into great places of worship of all kinds of men. If so desired, we can worship the picture of Lord Jesus Christ who we admit as the son of Godhead. We worship all worthy sons and servants of God, but we kick on the face of all rascals who claim to have become God so cheaply to mislead many innocent persons..." So as we can see - that statement applies - more to that time and those circumstances - and less - as a general declaration - that we can thus place and worship other pictures - like Lord Jesus on the Altar. Certainly - Prabhupdada's vision may still manifest - one day all Temples and Mosques and Churches and Synagogues everywhere - will thus have Shrines therein - dedicated to the Worship of God through all the Great Faiths....

[please re-read my post - it's edited] I think this is the letter: "...If so desired, we can worship the picture of Lord Jesus Christ who we admit as the son of Godhead. We worship all worthy sons and servants of God..." [Letter October 01, 1969] There is the question - can we keep other pictures on the Altar? Here are some quotes from Srila Prabhupada [and Krishna] on Jesus and biblical faith in general - and - keeping a picture of another Shaktyavesha Avatara on the Altar: "...Setting up an altar at home means receiving the Lord and His pure devotees as your most honored guests...What do you need for an altar? Here are the essentials: 1. A picture of Srila Prabhupada. 2. A picture of Lord Caitanya and His associates. 3. A picture of Sri Sri Radha-Krishna..." [Quest for Enlightenment] So there is no specific point that one cannot place other pictures of other pure devotees and empowered incarnations on the altar. The point would be the placement and the context in which they are worshipped - so in that respect I looked up some of these quotes in this connection: "...Jesus Christ and Muhammad, two powerful devotees of the Lord, have done tremendous service on behalf of the Lord on the surface of the globe..." [sB 2.4.18, Purport] "...Lord Jesus Christ was crucified by the nonbelievers..." [sB 2.8.6, Purport] "...It is said that Lord Jesus Christ, when twelve years old, was shocked to see the Jews sacrificing birds and animals in the synagogues and that he therefore rejected the Jewish system of religion and started the religious system of Christianity, adhering to the Old Testament commandment “Thou shalt not kill.” ..." [sB 7.15.10, Purport] "...They have let Jesus Christ make a contract for taking all their sinful reactions so they can go on with all nonsense. That is their religion. Christ was so magnanimous that he took all their sins and suffered, but that does not induce them to stop all these sins. They have not come to that sense. They have taken it very easily. “Let Lord Jesus Christ suffer, and we’ll do all nonsense.” Is it not?...Actually, one who is guided by Jesus Christ will certainly get liberation. But it is very hard to find a man who is actually being guided by Jesus Christ..." [Perfect Questions Perfect Answers] "...Anyone who has preached... The religious leaders all over the world... Take Lord Jesus Christ or Krishna or Mu hammed or Lord Buddha. Nobody has said that “You will be happy in this material world.” Nobody has said. “You continue this manufacturing of factories, and you will be happy.” Has anybody said? No...." [Lecture June 27, 1974] "...Devotee: Prabhupäda? Does Lord Jesus Christ appear in the spiritual sky with the body he manifested on the earth? Prabhupäda: Yes. Otherwise how there can be resurrection? Ordinary body cannot be resurrected. He appeared in his spiritual body, certainly...." [Lecture January 03, 1969] "...Now, now the principal religions of the world - Hindu religion, Muslim religion, Christian religion, and Buddha religion - most of them believes some supreme authority or personality coming down from the kingdom of God. Just like in your Christian religion Lord Jesus Christ, he claimed to be the son of God and coming from the kingdom of God to reclaim you. So this claim of Lord Jesus Christ, we admit. We, the followers of Bhagavad-gita, we admit this claim. So there is no difference of opinion between the followers of Hindu religion and Christian religion. In details there may be, according to country, climate and people, in details there may be difference, but that does not make any material difference...." [Lecture July 20, 1966] "...So this temple worship or accepting some authority, either you accept Krishna or you accept Lord Jesus Christ or Jehovah or Lord Buddha or Guru Nanak, that is a different, I mean to say, kinds of faith, but this acceptance of authority is there in everywhere. Now who is the highest authority, that we have to see by understanding Vedic literature, by our arguments, by our sense, by our understanding. But this acceptance of authority is there...." [Lecture June 13, 1968] "...The Lord says that the purpose of all Vedic instruction is to achieve the highest goal of life, back to Godhead. Any scripture of any country, not only of this Bhagavad-gita, but any scripture, they are aiming simply how to get us back to Godhead. That is the purpose. Take for any ex... Take for example any of the great religious reformers or acaryas of any country. In your country, Lord Jesus Christ or Lord Buddha. Of course, Lord Buddha, he ad vented himself in India, but later on his philosophy was broadcast all over Asia. Then Lord Krishna, or Hazrat Muhammad - anyone take. Nobody will say that “You make your best plan in this material world and live peacefully.” That is a common factor. There may be little difference according to country, climate and situation in the scriptural injunction, but the main principle—that we are not meant for this material world, we have our destination in the spiritual world—that is accepted by everyone...." [Lecture November 21, 1966] "...Yes. You can read also Bible. That is nice...." [February 27, 1975] "...So how we can accept a avatars, a saktyavesha avatara, whose names are not mentioned herein? Then we have to... As in the beginning, Lord Caitanya says that by the symptoms we can understand that He is saktyavesha. By the symptoms and activities and influence. So what is that symptom? Symptom is that eternal and temporary. So avatara, incarnation, comes to glorify the eternal existence of the Supreme Lord. So any avatara, any incarnation, he comes to glorify that “There is spiritual kingdom, there is God, and I have come to reclaim you to back to Godhead, back to home.” This is the symptom. So therefore, by that symptom, we accept Lord Jesus Christ as saktyavesha avatara, or Hazrat Muhammad, he’s also. Because these two religious leaders of the world, they preached about the glorification of the Supreme Lord. And they sacrificed everything for preaching the glories of the Lord. Therefore... And their influence and their followers, there are... These are the symptoms by which we can understand that Jesus Christ and Hazrat Muhammad was, were saktyavesha avatara. So far Buddha is concerned, he’s also considered saktyavesha avatara. He preached this Nirvana philosophy. Although he did not speak about God, because it is considered that he was himself God, but the people amongst whom he preached, they were mostly atheistic people; therefore he did not preach about God. But he did not deny also...." [Lecture December 31, 1966] "...Generally the...religion depends on this Crucifixion incident in the life of Lord Jesus Christ, but I think depiction of this incident simply stimulates the tensions of difference of opinion, and difference of religious principles, between the Jews and the Christians..." [Letter dated July 07, 1968] "...Regarding your questions about [chanting] various names of God, we have nothing to do with [chanting] Jehovah, Allah, Jesus, etc. If somebody else wants to chant in this way it is all right, but nobody is chanting Jesus etc. If they like, let them do that but as far as we are concerned, we should be satisfied with the Hare Krishna Mantra and nothing more....God has millions of names undoubtedly, but we are especially concerned with the name of Krishna because we are in the disciplic succession of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu Who chanted this Holy Name, Krishna. Everyone should be particular to his particular disciplic succession or sampradaya's regulative principles. This is required, as much as there are many different political parties, although every one is meant to serve the country...." [Letter February 13, 1966] "...Prabhupada: So God said that... God must say. So you say God: Jehovah; and we say God: Krishna. What is the wrong?..." [Conversation January 11, 1977] "...We have great respect for Lord Jesus Christ. We accept him as powerful incarnation of Krishna, as much as we accept Lord Buddha. We can adjust the Buddhists, Christians, and even the Mohammedans to our KC movement, so if the religious heads of these faiths [do not] try to understand our philosophy, certainly there will be great impetus in the matter of spiritual rejuvenation of the world..." [June 03, 1969] "...If so desired, we can worship the picture of Lord Jesus Christ who we admit as the son of Godhead. We worship all worthy sons and servants of God..." [Letter October 01, 1969] "...Everyone is addicted to hearing of the activities of another person, whether a politician or a rich man or an imaginary character whose activities are created in a novel. There are so many nonsensical literature's, stories and books of speculative philosophy. Materialistic persons are very interested in reading such literature, but when they are presented with genuine books of knowledge like Shrimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, Vishnu Purana or other scriptures of the world, such as the Bible and Koran, they are not interested..." [sB 3.32.9, Purport] So we have to look at this: "...Regarding your questions about [chanting] various names of God, we have nothing to do with [chanting] Jehovah, Allah, Jesus, etc. If somebody else wants to chant in this way it is all right, but nobody is chanting Jesus etc. If they like, let them do that but as far as we are concerned, we should be satisfied with the Hare Krishna Mantra and nothing more....God has millions of names undoubtedly, but we are especially concerned with the name of Krishna because we are in the disciplic succession of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu Who chanted this Holy Name, Krishna. Everyone should be particular to his particular disciplic succession or sampradaya's regulative principles. This is required, as much as there are many different political parties, although every one is meant to serve the country...." [Letter February 13, 1966] That goes a great deal into the issue - so while it may not be wrong to keep these other pictures on Altars all the time - we usually do not do that - as Prabhupada says: "...Everyone should be particular to his particular disciplic succession or sampradaya's regulative principles. This is required..." So unless it is an appearance day of the particular avatara - we would not see them on the Altar in the Temple - just like with the devas Shiva-Shakti. We must be care full not to blend our faith into a hodgepodge of faiths - no matter the path that we are on. Of course real sincerity is the point - if we are sincere - then we of course will certainly wish to offer respects to everyone who is serving God - and naturally to those souls who've came as pure devotees to save fallen souls. We do read and understand the cohesive message of all scriptures - but we should not lose sight of our own primary scriptures. Sure home Altars may have a little more room for including pictures like this - if you wish to keep the picture of Jesus on your Altar - do so - but it's best place it in the right location - like if you could place it on the wall - on the right side of the altar [not right on] - then offer your incense to Him as part of the worship of the pure devotees of the Lord. We must be care full not to make the mistakes that KIRTANANADA did with his ill-blending of ideas - so much of that led to his offences to Srila Prabhupada - which then led to his will-full fall downs. Just see where Krishna has him now - do we wonder if he has an Altar now - and 'who' is he is keeping on it? Most reading this will not know of 'this' offender and his offences to Prabhupada - and as I see it - the only value any discussion about his situation serves - is to show us what NOT to do. Here is a glimpse of it - from a letter Prabhupada wrote on October 19, 1967: "...I congratulate you for your successful dealing with your good brother, Sriman Brahmananda, against His falling back a prey to Kirtanananda's recent propaganda. To save a man from impersonal calamity is the greatest service to humanity. I also thank Rupanuga & Rayarama for helping you in your very laudable action. Brahmananda is very pure at heart. He might have been misled by Kirtanananda for the time being but Krishna did not allow him to fall back. According to Caitanya Mahaprabhu, the Lord is full in six opulences & the rascal impersonalists says that the Lord has no form & the most dangerous accusation for the Lord that He assumes a material form when he descends. The Impersonalist is of the opinion that the absolute has no form & He appears in a particular type of form according to the whim of nonsense; The impersonalist presents any form nonsensical by his imagination & worships it as God. This accusation of the Lord is the greatest offence of the nonsense impersonalist. Such offender can never realize the transcendental form of the Lord & the Lord puts such nonsense into more & more darkness so that the dangerous impersonalist can never know the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I do not believe that Kirtanananda has gone to such an extent of ailing situation but if he does not rectify himself immediately his future is very dark. If he is sincere in his concept of impersonal Absolute he should enter into correspondence with me & I shall refute all his arguments; but I understand that he could not answer you even when you hit him with some questions..." So just see how long KIRTANANADA was serving with offence! What did Prabhupada say: "...if he does not rectify himself immediately his future is very dark..." Well the history speaks for itself - think of his offences to Prabhupada and - to the other disciples of Prabhupada - his own god-brothers! His incorrigible hodgepodge understanding - was the start of his fall. So in that light just see how he started his bhakti and - how he ended it! Sure the question is there - why did he have such a bad disposition? He wanted to make his Guru into an impersonal God - so that he too could be God. Yes - he wanted to be God - not to be the servant of God. Not to mention that he was also a deviant sex offender as well - no doubt a result of his blending tantric and sahidya ideas into his bhakti! So it has been said that - if we are sincere then everything will be in the proper perspective in our understandings - but if we are not sincere - and if we fall prey to the modes of passion and ignorance in our pursuit of God - then we might end up like him. We must not forget that an offence to Guru and/or God and/or sincere devotees and/or [to a lesser extent] innocent souls - is like a disease - one that spreads throughout the minds and hearts of those infected. The primary causes of offence is lust - in its many and varied forms. What does Krishna say: "The senses, the mind and the intelligence are the sitting places of this lust, which veils the real knowledge of the living entity and bewilders him." [bG 3.37] So when the mind becomes thus contaminated and - one becomes offensive - one will then tend to try to create all false interpretations - to justify oneself - which most usually leads to blending ideas. It's seen even in contemporary film - there is the sleazy thief guy in the 1990's Mummy movie with Brendon Fraser - recall - he had religious icons of every description around his neck - but none of them worked for his protection in the end...

So today we saw demoniac attacks in London - last week in India - so much chaos. I think it is important to see this - less as a demon issue and - more as a kuli [quarrel] yuga issue. Our world is now too surcharged with the qualities of passion and ignorance - and in the present age - there is quarrel over trivial matters - what to speak of actually 'provoking' people! For the evil of terrorist attacks there are NO excuses - but - there are causes - and - we hardly hear a mention from the western leaders about these real causes. Of course - some of these leaders - who are fuel to these causes - have no desire to see the baiting stop. No the point and counter-point - is calculated. As noted in this

So today we saw demoniac attacks in London - last week in India - so much chaos. I think it is important to see this - less as a demon issue and - more as a kuli [quarrel] yuga issue. Our world is now too surcharged with the qualities of passion and ignorance - and in the present age - there is quarrel over trivial matters - what to speak of actually 'provoking' people! For the evil of terrorist attacks there are NO excuses - but - there are causes - and - we hardly hear a mention from the western leaders about these real causes. Of course - some of these leaders - who are fuel to these causes - have no desire to see the baiting stop. No the point and counter-point - is calculated. As noted in this

For you - He is a 'recoloring I did' of the famous painting by Jadurani Dasi. [set Him as a desktop picture and 'stretch Him' to fit screen]

Quote: One good point to consider is that we learn from Jewish prophesy that during the messianic age it shall be 'multi-faith' - consider that! "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 'For all people will walk every one in the name of his god', and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever." Reply: I forgot the 'citation' - that quote is from Micah chapter 4, texts 3 to 5. Of course the following part of this prophesy is also found in Isaiah: "they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more".

Here are some 'excerpts' [forgive any typos] taken from my various replies to other 'evangelical postings' at: http://pub19.bravenet.com/forum/1582971275/show/42256 [Note the title post at that URL made an offensive claim that 'Prince William of the house of Windsor' - is the messiah/antichrist] - [he is only 'one' famous person that has been cast-into this fictional role]. -------------------------- We know that the Messiah could NOT be a man who is already a prince or king etc., - he is a despised, loathed and diseased fellow! Look at [as only one example] Isaiah 53.3: "He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not." Further - messiah wasn't to be born until Jerusalem and Bethlehem were a part of a revived Israel [after the 70 C.E. diaspora at the hand of Rome]: Micah 5.1-2: "But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee [not exactly him - but his distant maternal family origin] shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days. Therefore will He give them [beth-lehem Ephrathah] up, until the time that she who travaileth [i.e.: the human mother of the human messiah] hath brought forth; then the residue of his brethren shall return with the children of Israel." It wasn't until June 5, 1967 that Beth-leham [and all of Jerusalem] was again in Israel's control. [i was born on June 3, 1967] Thus looking at Micah 4.14 we see this interesting point: Now shalt thou gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops ["Bat-Gader": lit. fenced in maiden i.e.: Jerusalem]; they have laid siege against us; *they smite the judge of Israel with a *rod upon the cheek. I was sort of - 'smitten on the cheek' - on June 05, 2002! http://www.dental_spy_implants.blog.ca [please check out my 'real' protest blog in this connection] Check out this X-RAY OF the CRFID IMPLANT IN MY CHEEK] [at least do so just so you can avoid 'it' happening to you!] http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-5/1005212/dentalimplantx-ray.jpg The following link shows a skull - it is mine - from a CT scan [to image the implant] on December 10, 2004 [we see the left side in this scan] - not a good reproduction on the optical scanner but - the FRACTURES can be very easily seen [there are worse ones on the right side a and over my left eye on my forehead - the MRI tech at the hospital thought they were from when I was was hit by a car on July 10, 1998 - but it wasn't - no idea when it happened and there are no scars on the outside - all I know is 'God saved my life' - at some point. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-5/1005212/questioning2.jpg "Thou art come forth for the deliverance of Thy people, for the deliverance of Thine anointed; Thou woundest the head out of the house of the wicked, uncovering the foundation even unto the neck. Selah {P}" [Habakkuk 3.13] We all know the 'separation wall' was first started by the Israeli government in [April] 2002! Is it "me" well - who knows [?!] [Laugh-out-loud!] Of course - in the Hebrew understanding of 'messiah' - it is known that there isn't only one messiah. There have been others throughout history - we also must know that there are 'different departments' as it were [that the same prophetic texts can have various applications to different people at different times] - so there are Kingly messiahs - Priestly messiahs - and Prophetic messiahs - there are these three kinds of messiahs - or 'anointed' persons. Jesus was a 'Prophetic Messiah' who was also - an Empowered Incarnation. Mohammad was a 'Prophetic Messiah'. Islam incidentally - also teaches that there is to be [another] 'Madhi' or a 'messiah' - or - Universal Teacher. According to Hebrew texts there IS a going to be a [human] messiah he is expected when the earth is in - full peril. Lord Jesus especially stated that if 'those days be [not] shortened no flesh shall be saved'. So we have some various points to consider. God IS going to send some [human] messiah - and he is already being demonized by the evangelicals [for hundreds of years now] - of course all of it is based in misplaced envy and misunderstanding. If people would see that there is NOT going to be any anti-christ [because Satan is an interpolated Persian myth] - then they could see 'why' it is so dangerous to demonize [yet to exist] people based on ignorance. What happens when there IS a King in Israel - will these nations who have been thus brainwashed - attack? It isn't fair in the least to God, to oneself, to humanity and to the future to engage in mental speculations about these kinds of things. An important point to consider is that one must perfect ones understanding of Hebrew scripture [all scriptures] in FOUR different [and usually mutually exclusive] ways -so the first [kind of] interpretation is - 'peshat or the 'literal' - then there's - 'remez' or the 'allegorical' - followed with - 'derash' the 'homiletical' - and finally 'sod' the 'mystical'. It is important NOT to focus only on so-called literal points not considering these others. One must understand especially messianic texts - in light of these explications. "Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.' {S}" [Zechariah 8.13] Clearly - 'messiah' will at some point hang-out and 'serve the rulers' [*leaders] of the new world order! "Because, even because *they have led My people astray, saying: Peace, and there is no peace; and when it buildeth up a slight wall, behold, they daub it with whited plaster;" [Ezekiel 13.10] "Thus will I spend My fury upon the wall, and upon *them that have daubed it with whited plaster; and I will say unto you: The wall is no more, neither *they that daubed it;" [Ezekiel 13.15] "Thou hast devised shame to thy house, by cutting off many peoples, and hast forfeited thy life. For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it. {P} Woe to him that buildeth a town with blood, and establisheth a city by iniquity!" [Habakkuk 2.10-12] "Behold, I have given him for a witness to the peoples, a prince and commander to the peoples. Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and a nation that knew not thee shall run unto thee; because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel, for He hath glorified thee. {S}" [isaiah 55.5-6] "Listen, O isles, unto me, and hearken, ye peoples, from far: the LORD hath called me from the womb, from the bowels of my mother hath He made mention of my name; And He hath made my mouth like a sharp sword, in the shadow of His hand hath He hid me; and He hath made me a polished shaft, in His quiver hath He concealed me;" [isaiah 49.1-2] "Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, to him who is despised of men, to him who is abhorred of nations, to a servant of rulers: kings shall see and arise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD that is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who hath chosen thee. {S} Thus saith the LORD: In an acceptable time have I answered thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee; and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to raise up the land, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;" [isaiah 49.7-8] "Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and [he] was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin [responsibility] of many, and made intercession for the *transgressors. {P}" [isaiah 53.12] So as I have shown - I can take the events from even my own life and show [rather lucidly] that since even I could be this messiah [who'll be called anti-christ by some] it goes to show that one may apply things as one likes and believe as such. [not that I am making any claims here!] You should also ask yourself - what if it were you or - someone you know? Since this next messiah - 'the wonder counselor' - is to be from the ranks of the out-castes we must be careful how we treat everyone - most especially those who are down and out - or those - who have had all their rights taken away...

QUOTE: Oh and DO recall Jesus and his angry outburst in the Temple of God - "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought (animals for sacrifice) in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves..." [Matthew 21.12] - Clearly Jesus' major angry out-burst was in the 'Temple' - directed RIGHT at this animal sacrifice activity. --- We should note the connection of what Jesus said that day - to prophet Jeremiah in ch 7. 7-11 [whom he quoted]: "But here you are, putting your trust in deceitful words to your own loss! Are you to steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal, go after strange gods that you know not, and yet come to stand before me in this house which bears my name, and say: "We are safe; we can commit all these abominations again"? Has this house which bears my name become in your eyes a den of thieves? I too see what is being done, says the LORD." Question why evangelicals tell you an interpretation of Matthew 21.12 that says Jesus was responding the cheating money changers. Of course we know that when one went to the Temple in roman occupied Jerusalem to sacrifice - one could not use roman coins [or others] in the Temple - only the coinage of Tyre could be used for the purchases - all other money had to be exchanged for that. So naturally - there were people who exchanged it for them. The evangelicals actually teach a subtle anti-Semitic idea of them 'cheating'. In their interpretations they want you to ignore that Jesus was quoting Jeremiah ch 7.11 - and he and his contemporaries knew the 'context' of that quote - it was all to do with a form of - false worship. "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought (animals for sacrifice) in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves..." So in fact the second part of that is a confirmation - 'the seats of them that sold doves' - by turning over these tables - so no one could exchange their coins - meant interrupting the 'sacrificial business'. That says it all! We should also note that he saw it as an exploitation of the poor - as the doves were for those who could not afford a more expensive sacrifice. Indeed it is also conveyed by the Prophet 'and' Jesus that it is a 'thieving' from God - to think one can engage in sins and later expiate them - by killing animals. Their interpretations aren't true to the whole and original context of the narration

Here is a thought [reply to an evilangelical] I posted on arabia.com [no longer online] just around two years ago in July 2003: Quote: and bhakta_don (MUNTEAN) has made a plan...but God has made an unbreakable covenant and His will be done ---- Reply: HARE KRISHNA - Well "MY" so-called "Plan" follows a simple Logic and Dharma - [prove it doesn't!] - as outlined within the many clear 'Orders' of God, and within 'context' - as outlined within all scriptural traditions everywhere - of course 'you' are in a Stark Defiance against the real 'Orders' of God - you - [with blatant stupidity and/or calculation] - push-on yer sick and twisted evil CULT - one which has 'EVERYONE' - not "born again" - (sucked into your cult) - suffering in an - 'eternal' hell-fire with yer - FICTIONAL SATAN. [and with a calamitous global war before sending them there?] We do know why YOUR CULT twists only a slight hand full of - 'out of context and misinterpreted' - "bible verses" into your 'Maledicted Performance Sermons' - we've discussed some of these points already and you've admitted it - Prophet Isaiah WAS speaking of a PAST king of Babylon and Prophet Ezekial WAS speaking of a PAST king of Tyrus - not your FICTIONAL Persian "Satan" - oh and yet again - them 'Garden of Eden' stories (which are oh so 'central' to 'your' salvation theory) [interpreted as an allegory by Hebrews] are a Mesopotamian interpolation - there are no REAL biblical connections to your FICTIONAL Persian "Satan" - in fact your Cult's doctrines of a 'mankind infected' with a congenital "original sin" - isn't an original Hebrew doctrine either. It is not even a Hebrew doctrine that the Hebrew's future "Messiah" 'should/would' 'die for mankind's sins'. NO - the messiah will have a 'sacrificial mission' - to 'redeem' the children of Abraham of their 'sacrificial sins' - nope - all YOUR doctrines are Fabrications based on Misinterpretations - [your Cult's "doctrines" are a long time Generational Scam!]. Your whole 'sacrificial lamb' connection to Sri Yeshua - is a very dangerous thing indeed - In Isaiah chapter 53 - which 'is' well accepted as a discussion of the future "Hebrew Messiah" [not Jesus!] we see that the Prophet has stated NOTHING about messiah's - 'death on a cross' - or - 'state execution' - [it does speak of a 'prison' stay - but 'where' this is - was not mentioned - we can be sure it 'will' be in Jerusalem]. In chapter 53 the Prophet is speaking of the Apostate Sacrificial issue - when reflecting on the 'future' Messiah [who's a mortal man - a Prophet of the Prophets, as it were - he's not 'God' in the flesh!] - it appears the children of Abraham's collective situation will come 'full circle' - by the time he 'appears' - i.e.: their collective 'test' [temptation] and final experience with him - will become like that of their original patriarch Abraham and his son Isaac - One can see from a clear reading of the Texts - that they will try to - "Sacrifice" - HIM: Text 7: - "... he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth." We MUST look at WHAT leads to THAT situation - and we can; from the clear perspective of the Prophet Jeremiah - as recorded in 7.19-26: "Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces? - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched. - Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put >your< burnt offerings unto >your< sacrifices, and [instead] eat [the] flesh. - For "I" spake NOT unto your fathers, NOR commanded them in the day that "I" brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning >burnt offerings or sacrifices<: But this thing commanded "I" them, saying, Obey my voice, and "I" will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that "I" have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. - But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. - Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day "I" have even sent unto you >all< my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: Yet they hearkened NOT unto 'me', NOR inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers." The truth is this bloody burnt sacrifice activity is NOT required - NOT desired - NOR EVER "Requested" from God - as we can clearly see. God states that these animal sacrifice practices come from - "...the counsels and the imagination of their evil heart..." - [and some lowest spectrum ancient pagan interpolations too!] - and 'that' is not hard to understand when looking at this sacrificial activity. So with the figure of 'Abraham' we see that God tells [tempts] him to - 'offer-up his Son as a Sacrifice' [as a 'test'] - which he then prepares to do - then God sends his agent - to intervene at the 'last moment' - then next comes a 'ram' caught up in the 'bushes' near-by - he [is tested (tempted) yet again] and he [fails*] and he 'offers' that 'animal' instead (*he failed only due to his simplicity - he must have misunderstood God's intent in his awe of the request) - so in 'this' we see the start of some interesting points. Did a spirit in fact 'TEMPT' him to provide his son as a burnt offering - to 'test' him? If so - 'was' it really God or 'someone' else? If it was God - what was the 'real' purpose of this 'test'? The fact that this Abraham was living in an area where this false worship [through animal sacrifices] was very prevalent IS revealing in this context - we're told that God wanted to 'make a pact' - wanted to work with him -- he saw something 'good' in this man - YET God >needed< to teach him that "HE" would NOT accept the all too prevalent FALSE worship - centered about human [and animal] sacrifices. We also must think and consider possible latter revisions made to these early Texts - to support the Temple and its 'sacrifices' and of course its Rich and Powerful Temple bureaucracies? etc. etc. etc.,? So in any case we see that God does 'everything' to 'discourage' them out of this activity - yet some Prophets - like Moses made grave errors in 'this' regard - in his case - we see that Moses [as a leader] really ticked him off - I don't think it was because Moses claimed that he himself had brought - 'the water from the rock' - no - it 'was' the 'flesh eating' and 'sacrifice' activity. Recall they even complained to Moses over their eating only Miracle Manna - instead of un-holy flesh like in Egypt. Moses knew 'why' GOD took them 'off the flesh' when they were led out from Egypt - we can thus read [chapter 11] in the Book of Numbers to see the terrible 'plague' from God - following their Desert Flesh Feast of Quail - [there were nearly 'mountains' of Quail falling from the sky!] - and then the subsequent 'brazen serpent' narration. Now think - does 'not' God say through Prophet Jeremiah - [that they've been doing these terrible things] - "Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt"? We can also see that in many cases some of the [unrecorded and minor] Prophets were NOT respected for speaking-out with the TRUTH - like with the case of Jesus - they were 'oppressed' and later in Jesus' case - WORSE! Of course we CAN see that God has HIS Plan: "I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them". We can see that after their Temple was last destroyed - [as directly predicted by the Prophet Jesus] - by the Romans in 70 C.E. - the REAL Hebrews then later [rightly] became focused on only the 'Torah of God' and the 'study' of that 'Torah' - they did THIS in the 'stead' of their too long 'aberrant' sacrifices - do yer study - FIND 'who' is it that said [within the biblical scriptures] - '...the prayers of our lips shall be as Bulls in the last days...'? Oh and DO recall Jesus and his angry outburst in the Temple of God - "And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought (animals for sacrifice) in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves..." [Matthew 21.12] Clearly Jesus' major angry out-burst was in the 'Temple' - directed RIGHT at this animal sacrifice activity! You need to look at the REALITY of the things you read - No Jesus is 'not' the Hebrew Messiah – however, Sri Yeshua IS - a dear-most Servant and Prophet of GOD - who GOD himself dispatched - to warn of the impending destruction of their Temple and their system of things [status as a State]. It quickly happened as warned - in 70 C.E. - YES - the TRUTH is the TRUTH - neither you - nor anyone - can change it - NOT with ANY amount of Apologetics and Interpolations... Hare Krishna!

Please accept my respectfull obeisances! All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Dear Prabhu: Hey - Are You are a Prabhupada disciple? Quote: ...The followers of "Dispensation Theology" are very numerous in the USA. They are influential in American politics and consequently they have an effect upon the whole world. They are a danger to the world. They desire to see "the last days"... Reply: When I think of Mr. Bush and his - 'whitehouse prayer meetings' - I wonder if they ever during these meetings discuss the spiritual implications of - [for him, (and ALL his colleges) and everyone else] - all the carnage that they are wreaking on the peoples of the globe...do they get it? [we know already the answer!] I wonder if - in their [so-called] spiritual discussions - Mr. Bush 'ever' comes away feeling 'compunction' for what he is ordering into action each day? We can recall King Yudhishtira's lamentations following the battle of kurukshetra: "King Yudhishtira said: O my lot! I am the most sinful man! Just see my heart, which is full of ignorance! This body, which is ultimately meant for others, has killed many, many phalanxes of men. I have killed many boys, brahmanas, well-wishers, friends, parents, preceptors and brothers. Though I live millions of years, I will not be relieved from the hell that awaits me for all these sins. There is no sin for a king who kills for the right cause, who is engaged in maintaining his citizens. But this injunction is not applicable to me. I have killed many friends of women, and I have thus caused enmity to such an extent that it is not possible to undo it by material welfare work. As it is not possible to filter muddy water through mud, or purify a wine-stained pot with wine, it is not possible to counteract the killing of men by sacrificing animals." [sB 1.8.48-52] In the 'Purport' to text 49 Srila Prabhupada states: "Whenever there is a war, there is certainly a massacre of many innocent living beings, such as boys, brahmanas and women, whose killing is considered to be the greatest of sins...It was simply horrible for him to think of such killing, and therefore he was thinking of residing in hell for millions and billions of years." So I wonder - when Mr. Bush [and Mr. Blair] think of the carnage they are wreaking - especially with THEM knowing full well that their so-called 'emergency' - is more manufactured - than 'not' - so I wonder - do they ever try to understand what a good king's lamentation sounds like in this regard? If they were so inclined - shastra has it: 'There is no sin for a king who kills for the right cause, who is engaged in maintaining his citizens. But this injunction is not applicable to me.' Despite what they may [wishfully] think - the injuction isn't applicable to them either! Then there is this lucid description: "...Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and the war fields at the whims of a particular man?..." [sB 1.10.4, purport] Alas this gets even closer to their situation: "...Even those who sincerely endeavor for self-improvement know that it is very hard to quell cherished ambitions. Sometimes these ambitions are so grandiose that we keep them secret, yet we cherish them within. An obscure, untalented man thinks he may one day become the dictator of the world..." [Mukunda-Mala-Stotra, text 40, purport] So 'what' can turn 'their' trend - what can make things improve - yes - you said it: >>>My Guru Maharaj told me that Prabhupada Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur said "If fire burns the whole world, do not waste time trying to put it out. All necessities can be met only by serving Krishna."<<< We can see that Bhagavatam explains the providential cause of some political enmities: "The Lord was pacified after killing those kings who were burdensome to the earth. They were puffed up with their military strength, their horses, elephants, chariots, infantry, etc. He Himself was not a party in the fight. He simply created hostility between the powerful administrators, and they fought amongst themselves. He was like the wind which causes friction between bamboos and so sparks a fire." I love how Prabhupada slices it right open in the purport: "...When...misuse of human energy is prominent, the saner living beings become perturbed by the awkward situation created by the vicious administrators, who are simply burdens of the earth, and the Lord appears by His internal potency just to save the saner section of humanity and to alleviate the burden due to the earthly administrators in different parts of the world. He does not favor either of the unwanted administrators, but by His potential power He creates hostility between such unwanted administrators, as the air creates fire in the forest by the friction of the bamboos. The fire in the forest takes place automatically by the force of the air, and similarly the hostility between different groups of politicians takes place by the unseen design of the Lord. The unwanted administrators, puffed up by false power and military strength, thus become engaged in fighting amongst themselves over ideological conflicts and so exhaust themselves of all powers. The history of the world reflects this factual will of the Lord, and it will continue to be enacted until the living beings are attached to the service of the Lord...." [sB 1.11.34] Your servant, BDM

You have mature understanding...

Please see my other reply to 'guest'.

All Glories to Srila Prabhupada! Thank you for your kind words! Quote: My personal feeling is that the only satanic power in the world is the will of mankind to do evil things. Reply: You make a point - just because there is no Lucifer who was an angel that fell and became Satan - just because that is a myth - evil and evil beings are not a myth. In fact there is this good text from Bhagavatam where Brahma the creator is describing various entities [including himself] and how some people take them as being God - but we note the number of entities that sound 'evil' in the description: " I myself [brahma], Lord Siva, Lord Vishnu, great generators of living beings like Daksa and Prajapati, yourselves [Narada and the Kumaras], heavenly demigods like Indra and Candra, the leaders of the Bhurloka planets, the leaders of the earthly planets, the leaders of the lower planets, the leaders of the Gandharva planets, the leaders of the Vidyadhara planets, the leaders of the Caranaloka planets, the leaders of the Yaksas, Raksas and Uragas, the great sages, the great demons, the great atheists and the great spacemen, as well as the dead bodies, evil spirits, satans, jinn, kusmandas, great aquatics, great beasts and great birds, etc.--in other words, anything and everything which is exceptionally possessed of power, opulence, mental and perceptual dexterity, strength, forgiveness, beauty, modesty, opulence, and breeding, whether in form or formless--may appear to be the specific truth and the form of the Lord, but actually they are not so. They are only a fragment of the transcendental potency of the Lord." [sB 2.6.43-45] So we see these beings named: "evil spirits, satans, jinn, kusmandas" - in the transliteration it says that 'kusmandas' are "a special type of evil spirit" - and there are jinn and ghosts. So no there may not be a fallen angel called Satan with a band of fallen angels following him - hell bent on incarnating through a man as the Antichrist - but there are unseen evil beings - who prey upon many weak minded souls - especially those who ascribe to the Satan myth - they may be an even easier target for these kinds of beings. Often in the world of the occult [and the New Age movements] it is fashionable to engage in trans-medium [or channelling] - even the evangelicals do it in their churches - they call it 'speaking in tongues and prophesying' - so in any case - this activity is unhealthy - a desire to be possessed by any spirit is dangerous. I am sure that you know all this... Quote: They decide to believe in their televangelist mentor's concocted fundamentalist doctrines. They swallow up this "superstition theology", like frogs eating slime. Their belief systems are dangerous and they are far away from real spiritual realization of the Reality of God. Of course this is only my opinion, but in the face of the mass craziness of "televangelism" I am keen to stand up an "give witness" that the followers of the televangelist preachers have lost their wits. Reply: Yes that is certainly well described - but we must not forget that this message - the 'slime' - its dissemination isn't limited to televangelism - it is preached in scores of evangelical churches around the world - this truly is a global issue - enough evidence to suggest that it is a concerted global effort to hijack the masses from the traditional churches - to become little [voting] automatons in their "true Christianity". That is the danger. As one example - just see the evil garbage that they spew about the Catholic Church - that the next pope is allegedly going to be the so-called false prophet as described in their nefarious Armageddon theology! When innocent and not well informed catholics hear this 'slime' many are convinced and they leave the churches - [and it happens to other non-evangelical christian Churches as well] - of course - they also preach that Hindus, Jews, Muslims and all other non-biblical faiths are part of the 'beast's system'! Which brings me to the next point - there are evil people in the world - evil for various reasons - Krishna gives much information on how to identify them - the texts are well known in the Gita - so how often do the so-called evangelicals turn out to be demoniac - as Krishna says: "O son of Pritha, in this world there are two kinds of created beings. One is called the divine and the other demonic. I have already explained to you at length the divine qualities. Now hear from Me of the demoniac." [bG 16.6] Then there is this description of these religious demons: "Self-complacent and always impudent, deluded by wealth and false prestige, they sometimes perform sacrifices in name only without following any rules or regulations. Bewildered by false ego, strength, pride, lust and anger, the demon becomes envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is situated in his own body and in the bodies of others, and blasphemes against the real religion." [bG 16.17-18] If that isn't a correct outline of the evangelicals - especially the televangelists - then - I do not know what could be!! This is a good text in this connection: "That understanding which considers irreligion to be religion and religion to be irreligion, under the spell of illusion and darkness, and strives always in the wrong direction, O Partha, is in the mode of ignorance." [bG 18.32] As noted the mainstream evangelical churches and centers are preaching on two points; Armageddon/Antichrist etc., and - the bashing of other faith groups - with the view to convert the 'spiritually bashed' into their mindless cult. Quote: The followers of "Dispensation Theology" are very numerous in the USA. They are influential in American politics and consequently they have an effect upon the whole world. They are a danger to the world. They desire to see "the last days" and in their egotism they think they will be among "the elect" who go to heaven in "the rapture". Reply: Considering that their propaganda centers around a militated [and militarisation] teaching of an emerging ‘world government’ - ‘the beast government’ - which they say is [at this time] the ‘European Union’ - declaring the E.U. - to be a so-called - “satanic revived roman empire” - it thus becomes a conflicted scenario - when we see the leaders in the U.S.A. ascribe to this theology. We know that to some extent - these extremist ideologies and all their ill-motivated implications are embraced by Mr. George W. Bush. Certainly Mr. Bush may think and believe whatever he likes - even ill-reasoned illusions - yet he as the leader of the most weaponized nation in the world - could one day present himself as a [further] global menace - in respect to how his 'doctrines' [continue to] affect U.S. foreign policies. I am holding out for a miracle - God will 'pour His Spirit out upon earth's leaders' - at some point and - they will see - it is already happening... This rapture issue is a joke - it's going to a 'rupture' not a 'rapture'! There isn't even a consensus among the propagandists regarding this issue - some of them preach that the rapture is a false teaching! Really - it really makes me wonder when I see intelligent leaders ascribing to this Armageddon cult - all critical remarks about Mr. Bush aside - I am certain that he is smart enough to know that the central points to his faith are a sham. [there is the possibility that he doesn't - pity him and so many more if he really is that thick] It is sad that he seems 'more guided' by what these groups - as voters - can do for him and his party - than he is about the realities of his position as a leader in a world in which these groups bait and cultivate discord. Krishna explains: "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues." [bG 3.21] I am praying that all the nations leaders are soon opened to real truth and that they embrace it - it's time for them to be what they really can and - should be! Quote: They have no real appreciation for Jesus' teachings about "love your neighbour" and "turn the other cheek", besides claiming that they are followers of Jesus. Reply: Yes you are correct - the evangelicals twist Jesus' words where he is admonishing his followers to 'preach the gospel to all creatures' - they twist it into an opposite - i.e.: their end times propaganda program - using this so-called 'commission from Jesus' - as an excuse to push the Armageddon theology while bashing all other faith groups. The gospel that Jesus was speaking of was not the program that they are preaching! In fact Jesus said to preach the gospel - to 'all creatures' - so what did He mean? We cannot teach an animal about the Antichrist - nor can we teach him about God - but we can express the love of God for [to] the animal [by not eating them for instance] - so that is what Jesus was saying - take the gospel of love and - share it with all creatures - he was not commanding them to go on a crusade - he was telling them to spread his message of love 'by example' - i.e.: to 'live his message of love with all creatures' - this may seem like an abstract interpretation - but how otherwise how do we 'preach' to all creatures? Srimad Bhagavatam has this nice text in this connection: "One should treat animals such as deer, camels, asses, monkeys, mice, snakes, birds and flies exactly like one’s own son. How little difference there actually is between children and these innocent animals." [sB 7.14.9] There is no doubt that whatever Jesus meant - it had nothing to do with the ill-program they are preaching. They would do well to heed God's point - when He says: “One who sees the Supersoul [God] in every living being and equal everywhere does not degrade himself by his mind. Thus he approaches the transcendental destination.” [bG 13.29] Quote: They are constructing a situation where Armageddon will happen in Israel. There is nothing so dangerous as a bad idea, and in my view Dispensation Theology is a very, very bad idea. Reply: Yes - actually - I see the whole evangelical propaganda as anti-semitic TRASH - without doubt - they have no regard for hebrews - despite the zealous sermons to the contrary and again - to quote Krishna: "Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." [bG 16.9] Thank you for your nice reply and may Krishna Bless You and Yours! Jaya Narahari!

It IS sad that anyone would leave Prabhupada and Krishna for anything - sort of like going from Gold back to copper! This fixation many have with satan isn't good for them - nor those around them...

Don't you think that chanting the holy names would be a better way to become intelligent - like this question seems to be a subtle way to discuss sex-life??? In answer to your question - Prabhupada says: "... If a child is taught to become saintly, his semen rises to his brain, and he is able to understand spiritual values. Wasting semen decreases intelligence. So from the beginning, if he is a brahmachari and does not misuse his semen, then he will become intelligent and strong..." [The Journey of Self-Discovery chapter 7] So then the point being mentioned before - why this question? Are your senses bothering you? Krishna says: "One who restrains the senses and organs of action, but whose mind dwells on sense objects, certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender." [bG 3.6] He slso says: "The Blessed Lord said: He who does not hate illumination, attachment and delusion when they are present, nor longs for them when they disappear..." [bG 14.22] So I wonder if you know the narration of the 'goats' in Srimad Bhagavatam canto nine chapter nineteen - here is a point from text eleven: "My dear wife, when the he-goat had his testicles restored, he enjoyed the she-goat he had gotten from the well, but although he continued to enjoy for many, many years, even now he has not been fully satisfied." Krishna says: "Thus, a man’s pure consciousness is covered by his eternal enemy in the form of lust, which is never satisfied and which burns like fire." [bG 3.39] So what happens next? Krishna says: "As a boat on the water is swept away by a strong wind, even one of the senses on which the mind focuses can carry away a man’s intelligence." [bG 2.67] So dear guest why even think of semen in any context - how much time do you spend thinking of sex-life? How much dovetailing thought to Krishna? So I hope that answers your question! BDM