Bhakta Don Muntean

George? Dick? Donnie?...

Is it possible that the sun will still rise in the east tomorrow?

Sorry - that was me - forgot to login...

Dear friend: I realize that you asked this question while back – I hope that you have resolved your feelings on the matter – as you have nothing to feel guilt or concern about – as a police officer you have to do you duty – which includes violence at times. Of course you are never acting on your own volition nor beyond what is reasonable in the circumstances in the doing of your duty – thus again no reason for compunction on your part. It is nice to hear that a police officer is Krishna Conscious and striving to understand the context of your duty juxtaposed between these issues. As you have much experience in the field with people you have seen that people are tending to more and more violence – a crisis is evermore prone to escalate and barrel out of control – I pray for your safety and that of all police. I appreciate the great courage and dedication that it takes to be a law enforcement officer! Of course it’s important [for your overall well-being] to try to perform this duty without emotional attachment – without actually becoming angry in the situation. You may help this desired ability along - by chanting the mahamantra and - a careful study and understanding of the Three Modes of Material Nature – in terms of how either alone - or in combination - these three modes - or qualities - affect everyone and everything within our environment. So basically - that means that the modes are in constant competition on people and things – for example – alcohol is a substance that is in the mode of passion – and it’s affect on people in the various modes - goodness and passion and ignorance - will determine the results to be expected. In the Nectar of Devotion we see this round about comparison: “…Generally, those who are exalted personalities [people in the mode of goodness] lie down when they feel intoxicated, whereas those who are mediocre [mode of passion] laugh and sing during intoxication, and those who are lowly [mode of ignorance] use vulgar language and sometimes cry. Such intoxication is manifested according to different ages and mentalities…” [Nectar of Devotion, chapter 29] There is so much more in the vedic texts about the modes of material nature and - all of us must try to understand this important ‘environmental logistic’ properly. Here are some quotes from Srila Prabhupada about this matter – you could see yourself as a ksatriya in this regard: “…Ksatriyas are allowed to commit violence in that way because violence for a good purpose is a part of their duty…” [sB 3.21.50, purport] “…A ksatriya is allowed to kill only for maintenance of the law and order of the state; he is not allowed to kill or commit violence without reason. Violence is certainly a path leading to a hellish condition of life, but it is also required for maintenance of the law and order of the state…” [sB 4.11.7, purport] “…Similarly, the ksatriya has to protect people…That is his duty...Violence is required in order to give protection. In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna directly gave His order to Arjuna to commit violence on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra, just to give protection to the people in general…” [Nectar of Devotion, chapter two] “…So ksatriya cannot be nonviolent. It is not possible. Violence is also required to keep the social system strictly in order. Just like the government has violence department, the police department, the military department. That is required to keep up the society in order…” [Lecture, September 01, 1973] Your servant, BDM

I think you and the others didn't really get their question? The question was actually asked by a non-hare krishna - as a 'devotee' would not word their question the way it's worded? So they wanted to know 'how' to welcome a vaishnava to their community - with what type of house-warming gift - so the various points about giving a Prabhupada book or maha-prashadam - is not really feasable for this questioner? BDM

Quote: No man has seen the planets in the distant galaxies; therefore they are formless. Reply: That is very nice! YS,

Hey that is nice you want to give a gift to them! I say that flowers are nice – but they do not last – nor do the usual - sweets baskets etc., - so those are nice but you may be thinking of something - more lasting. So I’ll tell you what I would think a neat gift would be – you can give something nice from your own Faith group – anything like a brass item - say like a cross or a menorah – or depending on your faith - there may be any number of other nice ‘like’ items – as a vaishnava - I like gifts like that – and - they are a sincere kind of gift that will remind your new friends about you and God - at the same time! If I were giving a gift to someone religious - I would probably give something related to faith. You can put some nice incense with it too [with a short note saying "incense for your puja"] (puja is worship) – then they will probably offer it to the Lord on your behalf! Hope this helps? YS, BDM

[i posted this on arabia.com (a site that very sadly - is now gone) in July 2003] I am re-poting this as it makes some interesting points... http://forums.arabia.com/WebX?14@156.Iuunal3Bnxy.0@.1dea90d7!content=EN&page=1&sort=recent&view=expanded [old url] "--'Hamas' and 'Islamic Jihad' and other smaller political [legitmate] 'groups' are Hearing the Historic - 'Call to Peace' - NO they are NOT '...ticking time bombs...regrouping...' - the embattled peoples are asking for clear requirements: "...list of requirements of Israel, including that it stop all "acts of aggression" against Palestinians — including arrests and killings of accused militants and that it release all "political prisoners" and lift its travel restrictions on Yasir Arafat, the Palestinian leader..." http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/28/international/middleeast/28CND-MIDE.html?ex=1057820289&ei=1&en=98dd3fb10e601741 It isn't that Israel wishes to never resolve this serious problem - I am sure they are most especially feeling evermore calculated over the last twenty two years - acting under the impetus of the U.S. based 'cash cult' - they are "set-up" - we can see they have been ill-led - [most recently by] Bush and Co. - now they can see the many generations of the 'group' [who have been] operating out of the U.S. State [no matter who is elected over the last 22 years - the U.S. has become a kind of 'home' to many of the dejected leaders forming the new world order state - leaders who may not want the changes they know are coming] - so we see that for a price the U.S. has been 'fixing' the U.N. process - interference leading to a lack of U.N. actions and/or reprisals on Israel for violations of so many resolutions in connection to the occupation - by this time - Israel must see 'who' has been thus engaging them in an corner not expected - nor desired.... Israel must NOT continue to ignore the present - 'Call to Peace' - because this "time" is the real deal - instead Israel MUST ignore Bush and Co. - otherwise everything may be lost... It is obvious to the world that Arab States do not now [never did] wish to eradicate the world's [re]New[ed] Jewish State - as it would've been a such different reality over the last 55 years - what's happening is - most especially since 1967 - the pain and frustration of these 'occupied peoples and their well-wishers' is at times sounding like that - but that isn't the case - without doubt there can be no real [full] formal acceptance of the RE'new'ED 'Jewish' State - by the Arab [or other] nations - until there is a FULL and independent Palestine. We must look at this situation in the light of our history in north america - when the 'white man' first came here - there were 'red men' already here - white man tried to kill them off [when that failed] - they disrupted their 'system' with guns, booze and [some were fake] missionaries - and at last they created 'reserves'- where the 'occupied peoples' were deprived and forced to stay - these places were called - 'land settlements' - now let's look at our situation here today - there are still 'reserves' [most in poverty!] and yes - the 'occupied peoples' - so long ago - have had their - >'Right of Return'< - into this 'new' society - Now today we have many of these indigenous peoples [rightly] wanting their own 'original' State [in some form] 'here now' - because [for many] they have not seen as much success [as promised to them] through 'this' integration. ---- Thus the [canadian] government have created recent ideas of 'native self governance' etc., to deal with this - all so much complicity for governments [and peoples!] now and later... [present note: without doubt this course is the best course for Canada - and - there are many success stories about self-government all through a unique integration of this important Right - into Canadian constitutional law - so my point was that - it's been a long and troubled path to reach this place - and that - the Palestinians and the Israelis - can avoid this path - altogether] I ask the people of Palestine and Israel to think about this 'RIGHT OF RETURN' in this light - it isn't something that future generations are going to appreciate - one might even think that by taking so much territory over the last 36 years there is a potential that Israel - under extreme pressure from the U.S. - will thus calculate the exiles a 'right of return' into the 'jewish state' [under the guise of it being "a provisional palestinian state in training"] - THE RETURN SHALL BE INTO 'SELECT AREAS' TAKEN 36 YEARS AGO... It will become a 'walled' - 'meager reserve' - "THERE" - no State of Palestine - for how many generations to come.... Logic says PALESTINE SHOULD GIVE UP THEIR "RIGHT OF RETURN" DEMANDS -- they can and should avoid so much hell to come and settle for the instant creation of a FULL and INDEPENDENT STATE... We must immediately get on with the fact that a REAL end to this Occupation must come NOW ---- the State of Palestine has been too long 'stalled' over the Jerusalem issue. We must face the reality that part of the 'Justice' here 'naturally demands' that Jerusalem is going to have be again a fully Israeli City. This city is the Hebrew 'Spiritual Center' [or 'teather'] - indeed Muslims in particular can see why it is thus important to them - through comparison to their own 'Spiritual Center' - 'Mecca'. Will this reality [of a change for jerusalem] be - 'need fully' concluded - "Honorably" and through - "Justice" - or "dishonorably" - through the so-called leaders of the World's 'singular' Superpower - cultivating a future 'need less' "Violence and Urban War"? There is the matter of the FULL justice to be fully rendered to the suffering Palestinians and the 'historic move' of the 'Dome and Alaqsa Mosque' to its new location - before the building of the third temple can begin. ANYONE “clearing” [or even thinking of attempts to] the "Temple Mount" - of the ancient and Sacred “Dome of the Rock” [and compound] with a so-called 'Errant’ Rocket attack - [during an impending 'all-out' Urban War which will certainly one day soon break out in Jerusalem – ANYONE doing this will be punished EXTREME severe by KRISHNA [God has His 'ugly side' too - just test Him!?] He sees us in our world - in the throws of the Age of Quarrel - He sees that our world cannot afford any such activity - it is time NOW - Israel, Great Britain and America [the original 'Partners in Partition'] should 'rightly' and “instantly” pay out the Billions of Dollars needed to move the 'Dome of the Rock' and the adjoining Mosque Compound -- ‘Stone by Stone’; HERE IS THE CLINCHER -- to move them onto the “Judicious and Auspicious” border of Jordan – ‘there’ the Palestinian peoples must be - “Empowered by the World Community” [and (in real time) financed by Israel, Great Britain and America - with 'other' international help] to create a NEW ‘State of the Art Capital City’ - THIS must be done for the Palestinians - they must now get their deserved New State. A State whose “borders” must NOT be marginalized into “a few miles” or into a “city-state”. Thus - if old Jerusalem can EVER see her new 'third' Temple – then an offering of 'this' honorable “move” is Israel's FIRST step – if it be a so-called ‘Errant’ Rocket [with yet more peoples displaced in a future "Transfer"] which gets their Temple “building process” underway [all this recent rocket attack activity directed at Hamas - could look like a scene leading to an eventual errant one or two...?] -- then the laws of material nature and common sense logic dictate sure results: NO amount of Diplomacy or Political Maneuvering shall promote “Resolution” - what to speak of “Peace” and “Security” FOR A VERY LONG TIME. In 'our' ever so 'little' world we have now seen Bush and Co. abuse the U.N. - at one point [for once it was admitted!] they were employing counter intelligence personal and who knows what technologies to needlessly spy on their own allies [to calculate them]! We will see escalated fighting continue - if there are any more assassination attempts by the Likud "party" on the Hamas "party" - will such very stupid moves restore hope? - Israel cannot go on and on like this - they have come to the cross roads - Krishna shall show 'them' the way to peace too - if they seek it. - If they ignore this - how long then before there isn't enough resolve in anyone to permit a resolution of this 5+ decades long Palestinian Occupation without a Bush and Co. 'seeded' global chaos? [is 'that' at the heart of Bush and Co.'s plan - or is it simply a time delayed method to another 'darker' plan?] Time to expand this vague "road map" to Palestinian Statehood - and Global Peace! Other issues and Nations need to be included! When these 'historic decisions' - to bring the two 'equal' States into Secure and Peaceful co-existence are concluded [and it'll be sooner than they think!] - the 'decision makers' must present a clear Plan to these parties - a plan which includes a FULL CUT AWAY from each other - there must be TWO "Independent" States [not that one is 'provisional' and the other is not] - with a 50/50 - 'non fragmented' - allocation of the territories [***minus the city of Jerusalem***] - a 50/50 share in water/sea ports and ALL other natural resources - a 60/40 [israel gets 60%] share of existing national/international market and investment segments/sectors [without this can they have any real economy - they would've had 'that' and more by now - had there not been the [cash cult] 'games' over all these years?] - the new Palestinian currency trades on instant 'par' with Israel's. ***Palestine must receive [without debt] as 'instantly' as possible - a comprehensive new "State of the Art" Capital City*** - and proper infrastructure - with international assistance to create full [supporting] Urban and Rural Communities - for two plus million exiles [in addition to the possibility of one to three million living within their Capital] - there must be FULL 'Reparations' in ALL Respects... NO MORE anyone trying to KILL anyone to make things happen [or not happen]! [last part edited cause Acts10 was fixated on it] ---- Is the State of Israel ready to see the - "Arm of the Lord"..." Your Servant, Bhakta Don Muntean

Just see the bent born again reasoning here: http://www.jnewswire.com/library/article.php?articleid=676 ....Yesterday, we in Israel watched as American officials, including President George W. Bush, ordered the mandatory evacuation of New Orleans and its surrounds. That small depression had turned into a frightening fiend. Now we are seeing on our television screens up to a million people being forced to leave their homes. People are weeping on camera, mourning that they are going to lose 'everything we own; everything we have worked for.' As today unfolds we are bracing to see wind and water pounding homes, whole communities, into the ground. "Is this some sort of bizarre coincidence? Not for those who believe in the God of the Bible and the immutability of His Word. "What America is about to experience is the lifting of God’s hand of protection; the implementation of His judgment on the nation most responsible for endangering the land and people of Israel. "The Bible talks about Him shaking His fist over bodies of water, and striking them. While the “disengagement” plan was purportedly the brainchild of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the United States of America has for more than a decade been the chief sponsor and propeller of a diplomatic process that has dangerously weakened Israel in the face of an overwhelming, growing threat to annihilate her. "In the context of the last 12 years of peace-process history, and not withstanding the desire of many on Israel’s left to go ahead with this process, the Sharon disengagement plan was something that was forced on Israel, primarily by the United States." Then there is this: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=17332_The_Terrorist_Katrina_is_One_of_the_Soldiers_of_Allah&only

Do what you want - think what you want - serve kali yuga in perfect form - sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of the age of quarrel - that is your program?

Quote: (it would seem that this good catholic Father has not realized Krishna is God yet) Reply: Well this is the first I ever heard of this person - I do not care about this person. The person I told you about - is a real live person - who is a part of my life - and I'll assure you HE is a staunch personalist and - he isn't bewildered like this other fellow you've quoted. So just what is your goal here...

Quote: Like I said, days ago, the Christian theologians are not going to accept that Krishna is "God the Father". Reply: Well you are wrong. I know many Catholics - who accept that Krishna is God. One of my very closest friends who is a Catholic Priest [from the 'old school'] totally accepts that Krishna is God - so I do not care what 'you' quote [i may explain your quotes later] I know that there are many many Catholics - and others of other faiths - who accept Krishna as God. There may be more that do not. It is up to 'you' to find out the mature and proper understanding - through which to reconcile these seeming divisive points in the bible that see God as formless and invisible. As noted before: “The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramatma, and Bhagavan.” (Bhäg. 1.2.11) These three divine aspects can be explained by the example of the sun, which also has three different aspects, namely the sunshine, the sun’s surface and the sun planet itself. One who studies the sunshine only is the preliminary student. One who understands the sun’s surface is further advanced. And one who can enter into the sun planet is the highest. Ordinary students who are satisfied by simply understanding the sunshine—its universal pervasiveness and the glaring effulgence of its impersonal nature—may be compared to those who can realize only the Brahman feature of the Absolute Truth. The student who has advanced still further can know the sun disc, which is compared to knowledge of the Paramatma feature of the Absolute Truth. And the student who can enter into the heart of the sun planet is compared to those who realize the personal features of the Supreme Absolute Truth. [bG 2.2, purport]

Quote: If Jesus...says his way to God is the only way (without giving any rational explanation), that not only makes him look like a crackpot but it has nothing to do with Krishna. So your assertion that jesus was a god-lover makes no sense... Reply: Incidentally - this issue of ‘Jesus’ as - the only way to God - is based on a mistranslation of Jesus’ words in John 14.6 - actually - Jesus never claimed that he is the only way to redemption or God. The problem enters in the translation of the word - “comes”: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. ‘No one comes’ to the Father except through Me." [John 14.6] The word "...comes..." is rendered from the Greek word - "eroktai" - a very present tense verb - thus a more proper translation should read: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. 'None here comes' to the Father except through Me." Also to understand what Jesus said look at Bhagavad Gita 4.34: Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.

Mostly crapola - that's what this is...mostly crapola - so - let's try to praise one faith by bashing the other faiths?!

So where are you oh invisible one with them answers?

Quote: bush is drinking again Reply: How do you know this to be true? I'll tell ya - yer post as abrasive as it is - tells it like it is! YS,

they won't do that - because these types make comments and they do not want any connection to them after - should they do an about face - which happens often with these kinds of offensive posters - I mean really if they think that strongly about their posts - why not place a name. As you know - when you have multiple guest postings - are there mulitiple guests? It can be disconcerting to the discussions. YS,

You are an offender - your EGO prevents you from see that!

Well the killing of cows took place in India too - and it goes on there right now - because this is Kali Yuga - oh and them other gods they were going off to serve - demanded their children in sacrifice - nice faith huh - I wonder if you would like to see those you love enter a faith like that? Be sensible - but yer most likely a hate monger so what can I say - and Prabhupada says Yahweh is a name for God - I do not care what you think...

Well it's nice to post like this and hide too isn't it! So what does any of this little sermon mean? Before I answer - are you a christian or a muslim or a hindu - or worse yet - a so-called hare krishna - once I know that - I can respond to this sermon for you..

Since the 'royal' road to hell is lined with good intentions - not money - don't bash the cash!

"Who gains wisdom? He who is willing to receive instruction from all sources. Who is the mighty man? He who subdueth his temper. Who is rich? He who is content with his lot. Who is deserving of honor? He who honoreth mankind. Life is a passing shadow, says the Scripture. Is it the shadow of a tower or a tree? A shadow which prevails for a while? No. It is the shadow of a bird in its flight--away flies the bird, and there is neither bird nor shadow. Hold no man responsible for his utterances in times of grief." [Hebrew Proverbial Sayings]

Quote: p.s. Those Biblical references certainly don't imply a formless Deity. On the contrary, God reveals that He does indeed have a face in the first quote (Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.). Reply: Just see - some do see!

Do forgive me - Murali – you have a name! Quote: The fact is, a clown or artist can create a collage of pictures of Vishnu's avatars and insert Mohammed among the avatars, but anyone who knows anything about what Mohammed taught will tell you that he didn't believe God ever incarnates. Not only that, but the artist clown has framed Mohammed himself amongst the avatars when in fact Mohammed himself (and indeed all Mohammedans) will be offended if you were to suggest that Mohammed was an incarnation of God Himself. Mohammed believed God is impersonal and it is wrong to misrepresent his teaching by suggesting he believes in the same notion of a "personal" God that the Vaishnavas believe in. Reply: Just see how harsh your thinking is! No one said that Mohammed is an incarnation of Krishna – he is an empowered incarnation – you do not consider that in your opinion. Also ask a Muslim if they believe that God can incarnate – ask them if they think God should be limited to our understandings of form. They will say no – at least if they understand Koran. Bible and Koran both have descriptions of God’s – hand arm etc., - it is taken by these traditions to be an allegory. They indeed focus upon a part of the impersonal aspect of God. However they are not impersonalists in the same fashion as a mayavadi. A mayavadi does not think that God has any personhood at all. Nor do they believe in the individual nature of the soul. That is not the biblical understanding of God and soul – you know that don’t you? This is what an impersonalist thinks: ...There is an identity of this world with the Supreme Lord. This identity is accepted in a misconceived way by the impersonalists; they say that the Supreme Absolute Truth, transforming Himself into the universe, loses His separate existence. Thus they accept the world and everything in it to be the Lord. That is pantheism, wherein everything is considered to be the Lord. This is the view of the impersonalist. But those who are personal devotees of the Lord take everything to be the property of the Supreme Lord. Everything, whatever we see, is the manifestation of the Supreme Lord; therefore, everything should be engaged in the service of the Lord. This is oneness. The difference between the impersonalist and the personalist is that the impersonalist does not accept the separate existence of the Lord, but the personalist accepts the Lord; he understands that although He distributes Himself in so many ways, He has His separate personal existence...the impersonal or pantheistic view that everything is God is not a very intelligent proposal... [sB 3.21.31, purport] Without doubt God has – an impersonal all-pervading feature – and an all-pervading localized aspect. "While thus being observed by the child, the Supreme Lord Personality of Godhead, the Supersoul of everyone and the protector of the righteous, who stretches in all directions and who is unlimited by time and space, disappeared at once." [sB 1.12.11] "Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding, namely Brahman or the impersonal all-pervasive spirit; Paramatma, or the localized aspect of the Supreme within the heart of all living entities; and Bhagavän, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna..." [bG 2.2, PURPORT] "Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan." [sB 1.2.11] Those texts are from the early parts of the books - meaning this is a basic understanding for us. It is up to you - to help others to reconcile all these understandings – but - you cannot reject these other traditions - outright - in doing so. You should try to sincerely understand these things first – then think about your critical position. Quote: The thing is, Mohammed specifically denied the idea that God ever incarnates Reply: Get some quotes and sources and we’ll discuss them!

Srila Prabhupada uvacha: “The basic principles of irreligiosity, such as pride, prostitution, intoxication and falsehood, counteract the four principles of religion, namely austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness.…” [sB 1.17.38] “…the principles of religion do not stand on some dogmas or man-made formulas, but they stand on four primary regulative observances, namely austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness. The mass of people must be taught to practice these principles from childhood.…” [sB 1.17.25] “…If the common people are not receptive, it is very difficult to impress upon them the necessity of spiritual enlightenment. Austerity, cleanliness, mercy and truthfulness, the basic principles of religion, prepare the ground for the reception of advancement in spiritual knowledge…” [sB 1.17.35] “…These are the general principles to be followed by all human beings: truthfulness, mercy, austerity (observing fasts on certain days of the month), bathing twice a day, tolerance, discrimination between right and wrong, control of the mind, control of the senses, nonviolence, celibacy, charity, reading of scripture, simplicity, satisfaction, rendering service to saintly persons, gradually taking leave of unnecessary engagements, observing the futility of the unnecessary activities of human society, remaining silent and grave and avoiding unnecessary talk, considering whether one is the body or the soul, distributing food equally to all living entities (both men and animals), seeing every soul (especially in the human form) as a part of the Supreme Lord, hearing about the activities and instructions given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead (who is the shelter of the saintly persons), chanting about these activities and instructions, always remembering these activities and instructions, trying to render service, performing worship, offering obeisances, becoming a servant, becoming a friend, and surrendering one’s whole self. O King Yudhisthira, these thirty qualifications must be acquired in the human form of life. Simply by acquiring these qualifications, one can satisfy the Supreme Personality of Godhead.…” PURPORT by HIS DIVINE GRACE A.C. BHAKTIVEDANTA SWAMI PRABHUPADA “In order that human beings be distinct from the animals, the great saint Narada recommends that every human being be educated in terms of the above-mentioned thirty qualifications. Nowadays there is propaganda everywhere, all over the world, for a secular state, a state interested only in mundane activities. But if the citizens of the state are not educated in the above-mentioned good qualities, how can there be happiness? For example, if the total populace is untruthful, how can the state be happy? Therefore, without consideration of one’s belonging to a sectarian religion, whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist or any other sect, everyone should be taught to become truthful. Similarly, everyone should be taught to be merciful, and everyone should observe fasting on certain days of the month. Everyone should bathe twice a day, cleanse his teeth and body externally, and cleanse his mind internally by remembering the holy name of the Lord. The Lord is one, whether one is Hindu, Muslim or Christian. Therefore, one should chant the holy name of the Lord, regardless of differences in linguistic pronunciation… Unless one is educated in the above-mentioned thirty qualities, there cannot be any peace…” (Please do read the rest of the Purport) [sB 7.11.8-12] There is so much more – but I think this should suffice to be enough to make this point. Was Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 7 - preached to ‘hippies” – is that how you’ll denounce this too? Your servant, "One who considers the arca-nuti (the worshippable Deity of Lord Visnu) to be stone; the spiritual master to be an ordinary human being, a Vaisnava to belong to a particular creed, or Lord Visnu, who is the supreme controller, as equal to the demigods is posessed of hellish intelligence." [Padma Purana]