Bhakta Don Muntean

If it was more than once it should be very easy to present a copy and paste of my so-called comments - please do that kulapavana - don't try to trick the readers here - but - you won't - because there are no such comments from me - that is why I didn't leave the Cresent and Star off my pictures [nor on the variations of these] : You kulapavana are the one that doesn't accept that Allah is Vishnu is Yahweh - not i...! You well know that even Prabhupada says that - he says that 'God is God' and - you still refuse to accept the truth. So please post my comments where you think i've said the exact same thing as whatshisname - AND - do not post anything that was directed at the islamists as that then proves that you don't know the difference between real muslims and islamists...

So what does that mean here to this? Please explain your quote and cite it's chapter/text location for us?

First of all - if you read the Origins of the Satan Myth... thread you would have seen that I do castigate extremists of all persuasion and naturally - that included Israeli extremists too - so please go back and read that it is everywhere in that thread - you have some nerve saying that i've never gotten on the case of the israeli side - just recall my postings - [if i feel like it] later today i'll post some examples. Now - do you expect me to take you serious here - prove to me that I'm jewish - because that would be news to me - do you know my Irish mother's maternal history? Truth is I could be Jewish and - I wish I were jewish - do know that. I'll brace for the wind about to be posted back - seriously - where do you get the idea that i'm jewish? What kind of body were you born in?

Where the heck do you surmise all that from dear soul?

Om Shalom Hari Bolo! If i felt that way I would say so - but of course i do not feel that way - as for going after evil doers - that isn't what this is about...and - Kula knows that.

That is an islamist programme - not an Israeli one...

Why are you pointing this posting at me? I sure hope that it's not because you haven't read enough of my postings to know that I've never said anything even close to: "he went after the Muslims. Harivilasa thought it was great that under Bush's direction, the Americans 'bombed the hell' out of Afghanistan, because now we can go preach to them without interference from the fanatical Muslims." - never have i said ANYTHING like that. As for any other comments that i've made - what is wrong in them? Also i now support Bush and the reasons i do so are well explained by me - it has nothing to do with comments like this Harivilasa prabhu's comments. As well - even GBC have a right to think what they choose to and to discuss it too - would we see the same outrage for a Bush positive postion in a GBC member - without the noted faux pas comments? As for Manipur - has it been confirmed who it was that did it? As long as that isn't confirmed there is every possibility it may have been an islamist or an islamist movement - of course - it was NOT Islam and it was NOT muslims - which did that. Quote: To openly endorse the person and actions of extraordinarily misguided leaders - who openly violate every single principle held as sacred by the simplest of human beings - what to speak of Vaisnavas - while representing our Governing Body Commission of the International Society for Krsna Consciousness is unconscionable. It is reckless and misguided in the extreme. Reply: I think that that comment is as unfair and nonsensical - as the one he is condemning - that really is just HIS opinion and - who is he to say that that is the opinion and position that the GBC should endorse to the world... I wonder what Praghosa Dasa thinks of this point: ...This age of Kali will certainly be full of all activities of Kali, but this does not mean that the leaders of society, the executive heads, the learned and intelligent men, or above all the devotees of the Lord should sit down tightly and become callous to the reactions of the age of Kali. In the rainy season certainly there will be profuse rainfalls, but that does not mean that men should not take means to protect themselves from the rains. It is the duty of the executive heads of state and others to take all necessary actions against the activities of Kali or the persons influenced by the age of Kali... [sB 1.17.28, purport] So who are the executive heads of state in this case and who are the persons influenced by the age of Kali - if our baffled and lackluster national western leaders do not stand-up to these other thugs - then - they are no better than these noted terrorists - or if we may - irregular fighters - without doubt ISKCON enjoys freedom to exist within these 'western regimes' freedoms that couldn't be realized within the islamist regimes... So what is your point in posting this article here in this thread? hari bolo!

Iran defied a UN deadline Thursday to stop enriching uranium... http://ca.news./s/31082006/2/world-iran-s-president-defies-un-deadline-stop-uranium-enrichment.html So is it any surprise that Iran is operating as though there was no U.N. - why would that be? Again the U.N. failed with Iran - they failed to prevent it from getting this far - so - whatever they do now - what good shall it be? The truth is there are places that 'revolutions' are not irregular - where the leaders are so very irregular themselves - as in Iran... There are no freedoms in Iran - it must be a horrible place and - if something isn't done to change the direction this is all going then - what shall be the result? The president of Iran has placed his nation on a course of confrontation with the world. The fact is - if there is any hope for the Iranians then - their leaders better get a good introspective look at themselves - they really are in need of a serious reality check...

Funny how this noted situation with Israel and the U.N. smacks in the face of the false propaganda - that 'zionists control the U.N.' - are there still people who think that after seeing how the U.N. is targetting Israel?

Who cares about that sex-trade issue - it really has nothing to do with this topic... It was once said that the U.N. is a "...useless debating club..." - that really is true for all intents and purposes. If Israel used such 'cluster' weapons in the last days of the war - it was only because hezbollah was engaged in the well-known practice of attacking from within and - hiding amongst - civillian populations. What are the reasons that the U.N. has failed to understand why such groups choose such cowardly and irregular fighting practices? When dealing with such irregular fighters [terrorists] - like hezbollah - what can be done? I wonder if the U.N. is invesitgating and condemning that hezbollah loaded all their rockets with ballbearings and shrapnel plates? It should be noted that these rockets were directed at civillian population centers - where there were no IDF soldiers 'hiding out'! These rockets were not directed as a means to attack other soldiers - they were directed at civillians - with little chance of affecting the IDF - YES - hezbollah knew this and - that was their heinous plan - kill as many Israeli civillians as possible - so what is the 'problem' here? Of course - in targeting civillians - the many homocide bombers have done this [use of ballbearings and shrapnel plates] as well. Is the U.N. investigating how the U.N. failed to prevent hezbollah form forming as a state within a state - how the U.N. failed to cut off the flow of cash [from where?] that hezbollah uses to buy the Lebanese populations [through socialism i might add] - how they failed to prevent this state within a state from forming as a irregular and heavily armed forces?? There is too much wrong with the U.N. - it really needs to be reformed and one thing to forward doing that - is to replace Annan and - his entire do nothing team. So the more our world's useless debating club faults Israel while at the same moment permitting groups like hezbollah to grow - the more we see what is really going on.

When did i say your position had no value? You didn't pick up my point [on Prabhupada's comments to Lord Brockway] and that is that you may have a point in some areas and that your best efforts would be placed in trying to reach socialist leaders [or ones up and coming] with the message that they need - Prabhupada's teachings presented to them in such a manner that they would have the opportunity to become 'educated'. I do remain quite concerned about your views about revolutions [of any kind] and your seeming acceptance of those 'factions' that are fighting the western 'capitalist' nations - be they terrorists or 'whatever'. I think you might do well to see any revolution less as a solution maker and more of a problem maker - especially in kali yuga times like these. Do know that i see that you are sincere enough to place the efforts that you do into your postings and discussions with others and - I do respect that. Hari Bolo!

...they are cautious not to equate the violence meted out to humans as being comparable to that of animals they are recognising that as human beings we have a responsiblility not to abuse animals and to act responsibly to maintain their welfare... Of course - and it seems that you might agree with them? The violence done to an animal while different in the eyes of the state is not very much different in a practical sense. People who need to externalize their anger through causing pain and injury to others are demons [they may be sick but i don't care about that when they hurt others] - now of course those 'sick people' that abuse an individual that cannot resist or otherwise end the abuse are most abominable - without doubt the abuse of an animal is like the abuse of a child. Like a child an animal cannot stop the abuse and like a child the animal didn't do anything to 'deserve' or cause the abuse. While the abuse of a human is a greater crime - the abuse of animals is a crime as well and - it may be that those who abuse animals also abuse humans - take the example of the people who may have a dog or a cat - when they become angry - they take it out on their compainion creatures and such dogs and cats are at their mercy [or lack of] unless providence sets them free - just look to all the homeless dogs and cats that run around - what is their story of abuse - in their forgotten lives? Without a doubt - there is a serious problem with violence in our world and - it has its basis - humans non-regard for non-humans. So despite that - we have to know that not all meat eaters are violent demons who abuse animals and - other humans! In a socialist society there would still be meat eating for sure, (this is kali yuga after all) but there would be an end to the commodification and abuse of animals. They would be allowed to live a life that wouldn't involve an impedement to their welfare. This is actually an important aspect of socialism and has been brought about by engaging in a dialogue with animal rights extremists who fail to understand the root cause of animal abuse within society - capitalism. Animal rights 'extremists' are as lost as any other extremist. Capitalism is NOT the root cause of animal abuse - that there are animals abused EVERYWHERE is clear proof of that. Just see in China the hopeless lot of the billions of animals! Vedic culture also tolerates its share of meat eaters. However, they are allowed to continue their practices within prescribed parameters. The Sabaras in Jagannath Lila were pig herders and there's not much point in herding pigs unless you are going to eat them! Yes it does to some measure - however - it is restricted to the lower class - no leaders or teachers would live on flesh. I believe that if we got rid of capitalism the desire to eat meat within the general populace would diminsh significantly, if not simply for reasons of choice and health but as a response to an increase in the ability to express compassion. Again - there are plenty of places on earth where there is no capitalists and there is yet a great deal of flesh eating. Did Rama educate Ravana with a book or an arrow? We're not Rama and - we're not fighting Ravana. Socialists generally reject the notion of power believing that power is simply the collective power of the people. Any concept of power beyond that is unpleasant to them...To rid the world of power structures is ultimately their aim The truth is we call that [power is simply the collective power of the people] democracy don't we? Certainly - we cannot reject the notion of power structures and leaders because even in the socialist structure the mass of people shall be represented by the few. This is where we get to the point that Prabhupada makes - that even if there were good leaders to choose it is impractical to educate the masses to select the right persons - so - the idea then is that an effort must be made to educate leaders themselves. Without being properly situated [educated] no leader can enjoy the honor and fame that they should as leaders. The truth is we could choose a socialist system as you espouce - however - that isn't going to change the practical reality that the socialist leaders shall be as prone to mistakes - the same mistakes - as the leaders they displace. What you can do, however, is demote those people who are usurping positions of power, without Krishna's sanction, using their money as false passports to positions which they have no qualification to occupy. Nothing short of a revolution would be capable of doing this. There is that concept of revolution again. Have you heard that not even a blade of grass moves without the sanction of Krishna? So we cannot say that the west is under the control of usurpers. Even in some existing socialist governances there is a practice of placing unqualified persons in positions of public trust and - history has many examples of this. Of course the kind of socialist system you espouce wouldn't do that i'm sure - naturally that 'system' is a utopian view not a practical one. There are times within the Srimad Bhagavatam in which the overthrow of a ruler have been advocated. The thing I think its important to remeber as well is that all the rulers in today's society are Vaishyas. They have obtained their positions through mercantile expertise. Which of them is qualified and capable of learning? My belief is that all classes of humanity have been relegated to sudra and have no means of escape without revolution as Capitalism can only tolerate two classs of people in truth - Vaishyas and sudras. Yes there are such narrations of wars - yet - revolutions are not preached in the pages of Bhagavatam - in fact - revolution would be condsidered 'irregular fighting' [when members of an irregular armed force fights by sabotage and harassment] - in this connection - Krishna [in BG 2.32] says that the doors to heaven are open to leaders - 'to whom fighting opportunities come unsought' - so revolutions are not something that is vedic in the sense of fighting with rules and regulations. The vedas are clear regarding when and with whom one can fight with as well as well as the circumstances prompting such fighting. The fact is - when people are mostly under the modes of passion and ignorance any 'revolution' - even if it starts as mere striking and boycotting - usually ends up in discord and fighting - if there is such a revolution of 'the masses' - it would become anarchy quite quickly. In kali yuga 99.99% of the populations - what to speak of rulers - are for a practical sense 'sudras' - socialism isn't going to change that - nor are revolutions are not going to change that. However - properly educated leaders - can change that - as reflected in the way that they govern their peoples - but - if the leaders don't take any personal responsibility for the direcection their people are headed [what to speak of themselves] - then it's less than sudra mentality expanding everywhere - especially with the generations after the 1980's and on... it is brute force that is allowing the capitalists to maintain their position not subltle force. They will reap what they sow but only in due course. I am concerned as to how to remove them as soon as possible so that they stop polluting the world's populace with their perverted ideas of greed and selfishness I think you should try to focus less on a revolution [and more on the revelation ] and more on becoming more educated by Prabhupada - how much time do you give to reading his books each week? Do you chant the holy name of the Lord at all on a regular basis? These are things you should be doing right now - just try to understand Prabhupada's position first - then - you may try to relate it to 'other' perspectives - but - without a firm grounding in the teachings of Srila Prabhupada your tendency shall be that you will have incomplete faith in God and - in your political understandings.

You've wrote: Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism, only the workers are. ...[muslims] have been targetted as the cause of economic problems that are actually caused by ruthless and inethical economic policies...How tolerant do we expect people to be and can we not understand when a group so harried for the natural resources present in their homelands resort to methods of violence to resist the extreme violence being meted upon them..." Only extremist islamist muslims are trying to do this and - Muslims are not being targeted as you say. I think your position may be thinking that since socialists wish to upset the capitalist apple cart too - it is somehow fortuitous to your cause that these [or any] extremists are also fighting the 'capitalists'. Your hope is that the varied results of this 'resistance' may become an opportunity to sway the variety of populations to socialism or in the worst-case [for the world] scenario - if the attacks of extremists on 'capitalists' induced a widescale anarchy it could be an opportunity to induce a socialist revolution - however - the real result would be a nasty war between the islamists and the socialists. You boldly say that Bush and Blair [and the rich ruling class] are responsible for the incitement of global terror and ithe violences are only reactionary - to them - this 'Islamic revolutionary activity' - that is what i clearly read. This must be the case in your writing - ...'They cause Islamic fundamentalism by targetting and scapegoating muslims in their bid to conceal the war they are waging on the international working class'... It is odd wording - taken with - 'How tolerant do we expect people [terrorists ] to be and can we not understand when a group so harried for the natural resources present in their homelands resort to methods of violence to resist the extreme violence being meted upon them' - and that point taken with - 'Capitalists must use force....It is this force I challenge but we are so many and they are so few such resistance would bring an end to war rather than perpetuate it as the capitalist system does of necessity. Muslims are not to blame. They feel threatened because their homelands have been under attack and threat of attack since the ruling class realised it needed control over the region to secure a constant oil supply' - none of that accounts for the known facts about the islamists radical revolution programme. The global islamic revolution hasn't been born out of any fighting of 'capitalism' [or even so-called western domination] - infact - they are trying to widely impose their radical revolution for decades now - by propaganda by force and - by terror. The so-called fight against so-called western domination is a sham they use to con some 'others' into following them and - to divert attention when their islamist programme begins to sound too radical. You seem to not think of that 'component' in writing about this 'scenario': Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism You seem to be saying that Islam in particular and muslims in general - are at odds with western capitalist society but - that isn't true and - you don't see that you advance islamaphobia on that basis - by trying to confuse the lines of identity among the players of consequence. Please don't try to make people think that Islam is united in some 'resistance' against capitalism - where it's only some radical so-called muslims who are so disposed. So to say: the only way we will overthrow the rising movement of Islamic fundamentalism is to overthrow the power structures that attract them to world domination - that is just plain wrong. They are attracted to "world domination" - for other reasons - as noted. Quote: The problem with Muslim fundamentalists is the same problem as with Hindu fundamentalists Reply: Not even close. One cannot compare any other 'fundamentalists' with islamists - as they are the only ones that kill for their programme - not even evangelicals do that! But in this i think you're calling me a hindu fundie? It was on that basis that I think you've been contradictory...

Iran TV debate challenge to Bush Iran's president has challenged US President George W Bush to a live TV debate on world affairs. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad accused the US and UK of abusing their "special privileges" and said a debate would let both sides air their views uncensored. The White House called his suggestion a "diversion" from global concerns over Iran's nuclear programme. Mr Ahmadinejad was speaking two days before a UN deadline for Iran to halt work on its nuclear programme. He said Tehran had proposed a framework for further talks but said no-one could stop Iran having a peaceful programme. "Peaceful nuclear energy is the right of the Iranian nation," he told a news conference. <table> <tbody><tr> <td width="5"> </td> <td class="fact"> <!--Smva--> " The debate should be uncensored in order for the American people to be able to listen to what we say" <!--Emva--> <!--Smva--> Mahmoud Ahmadinejad <!--Emva--> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> "The Iranian nation has chosen that [course] based upon international regulations, it wants to use it and no-one can stop it." He said Iran's response to an incentives package, offered by six nations in exchange for a halt to its nuclear programme, was an "exceptional opportunity" to resolve the dispute. When asked if Iran would halt enrichment, he said any kind of dialogue "should be based upon the certain rights of the Iranian nation". UN veto "I suggest holding a live TV debate with Mr George W Bush to talk about world affairs and the ways to solve those issues," Mr Ahmadinejad told reporters. "The debate should be uncensored in order for the American people to be able to listen to what we say and they should not restrict the American people from hearing the truth." Iran and many other nations "are against America's practices in managing the world", he said, calling such practices unjust. He accused both the US and UK of taking advantage of their "special privileges", saying he thought they were the "the origin of all disturbances in the world". And he also questioned their right to a veto in the UN Security Council. "Isn't it time that international relations are founded on democracy and equal rights of the nations?" he went on. But he did not rule out talks with the US in future, if certain conditions were met. Mr Ahmadinejad's challenge to President Bush was dismissed by the White House. "Talk of a debate is just a diversion from the legitimate concerns that the international community, not just the US, has about Iran's behaviour," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino was quoted by Reuters news agency as saying. Sanctions Iran has been given until 31 August to halt uranium enrichment - a possible route to nuclear weapons. Earlier this week, Tehran had offered "serious talks" in response to a package of incentives put forward by the five permanent UN Security Council members and Germany. Washington has proposed implementing sanctions if Iran fails to meet the deadline, while Russia has said such a move would be premature. Mr Ahmadinejad said it was "unlikely" the Security Council would take action against Iran, and said "sanctions are not an issue". "We have said everything in our response. I think the time to use the instrument of the Security Council has expired," he said. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/5295550.stm Published: 2006/08/29 14:51:09 GMT © BBC MMVI ------- I think that Mr. Bush should accept this 'challenge' because it would not be difficult to expose mr. president ego of Iran - for what he is. Of course I think an even better direct 'international debate' could take place - over a longer time - on a message board on the web - as written questions and answers would be better for a more accurate exchange - again - it would NOT take long for the president of Iran to reveal 'what' his many errors are. How odd that he thinks that he might earn ANY 'points' in front of westerners with such a debate......we could however earn points with his population - if he permits them to have accesss - uncensored. Since he has used these operative words though it seems not likely: He remarks: "The debate should be uncensored in order for the American people to be able to listen to what we say and they should not restrict the American people from hearing the truth." - so he's saying "the American people" these are not broad and encouraging words - do not the Iranian [and all] people have the same 'rights' to hear the full and uncensored truths? The president of Iran well knows the fact that there is NO LIMITING of information exchange in western nations - especially north america and europe...we are free to say what we want about the system and it's directors. Do we wonder what is the level of intransigence in the acute state censorship in Iran right now - just how profoundly oppressive are the limitations being imposed on the Iranian people - limiting them from outside facts and opinions - does mr. president of Iran think that we all forgot that that is what is really going on in Iran? Of course that is all a part of their 'revolution' isn't it.... We could say that the president of iran's programme has already lost the debate - here on this discussion board at least - yes - there is a great deal of information here that cannot be escaped by his propaganda programme hucksters... <!-- E BO -->

Hari Bolo! Well now you're contradicting your other postings - i'll reply later today...

Oh well...so swell...

Quote: I'm sorry that you don't feel I quote Prabhupada enough. Reply: We don't have to know Prabhupada by heart to quote him - did i miss anything - have you quoted him at all in these discussions? There are on line copies of his books for you to search and copy and paste from - to try to support your position. My only major point was this: "Prabhupada: No, but my proposition is that they should not commit, either the king or the elected person should not commit mistake. But if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view. Lord Brockway: Yes. Yes, but the mass of people in poverty, the... Prabhupada: No, everything will be all right. Because the man on the head is perfectly, he’ll manage, he’ll manage. But if he’s not perfect, then it is not possible. Therefore the endeavor should be made... Either call it dictator or president or king, it doesn’t matter. The man on the top of the executive must be a perfect man. [Room conversation with Lord Brockway, July 23, 1973] So that is an interesting point: ...if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view...Therefore the endeavor should be made... [to educate our leaders] and now with the WWW and their broad interest in things that are discussed around the world - they can become thus 'educated' as he notes." That program is what is needed - all the leaders in the world better get trained up or - that 'magic prankster' [blessed be His Holy Name] is going to enter them into a 'contest' that they cannot win. If we try to educate the mass of people to select the right leaders it would be futile - if we try to create some new political perspective - it would be futile - the only thing we can do is try to see that the leaders become educated - if that is done - the world can eventually come to the platform of understanding and cooperation - it sounds impossible this program - but - that is less impossible than revolutions and mass campaigns focused on the people. Krishna says: Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues. [bG 3.21] Not that it's been any great success with this on the ground reflection of truth - 'Whatever actions are performed by common men, leaders follow in their footsteps. And whatever standards common men set by exemplary acts, all the world's leaders pursue.' The world's practical reality is that the leaders everywhere are just all too common - that seems to be true no matter the nation nor the politcal structures - so - that is the issue - what are the real qualifications of the string of leaders in our world? God says [in every major scriptures] that the leaders are representative of Him - thus HE is indirectly responsible for what they do - on that consideration - it seems that leaders aught to be very mindful of what they do - as leaders. So it's got to be - 'A Trancendental Education 101' of the Leaders - that is the only hope for the future! You may say that it is impractical to think that the leaders are just going to hook up to the facts and the Teachings that they need to make this happen but - it can happen and this world is being directed by God and He has a plan...so let's see some efforts there as Prabhupada said: ...if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view...Therefore the endeavor should be made... [to educate leaders] You write: Islam alone is not capable of overthrowing capitalism, only the workers are. That program really is the end all program - best of luck to you dear soul in your quest for understanding - i just hope that you are going to become more and more attached to God centered understandings - rather than to the political - especially ones that speak of "overthrowing capitalism". To paraphrase Srila Prabhupada: The living entity cannot be desireless or senseless, but he does have to change the quality of the desires. A materially desireless person certainly knows that everything belongs to Krishna - he does not falsely claim proprietorship over anything. This transcendental knowledge is based on self-realization - namely, knowing perfectly well that every living entity is the eternal part and parcel of Krishna in spiritual identity and therefore the eternal position of the living entity is never on the level of God or greater than Him. This understanding of Krishna consciousness is the basic principle of real peace. Those who know the rules and regulations of the scriptures, but, out of laziness or indolence, give up following these rules and regulations, are governed by the modes of material nature. According to their previous activities in the modes of goodness, passion or ignorance, they acquire a nature which is of a specific quality. The association of the living entity with the different modes of nature has been going on perpetually since the living entity is in contact with material nature. Thus he acquires different types of mentality according to his association with the material modes. But this nature can be changed if one associates with a bona fide spiritual master and abides by his rules and the scriptures. Gradually, one can change his position from ignorance to goodness, or from passion to goodness. The conclusion is that blind faith in a particular mode of nature cannot help a person become elevated to the perfectional stage. One has to consider things carefully, with intelligence, in the association of a bona fide spiritual master. Thus one can change his position to a higher mode of nature. [bG 17.2, purport] That is the starting point...to understand the nature or the focus of this noted education program - Prabhupada says that - 'One can remain in his own position. No one has to change his position, especially in this age of variegated difficulties' [sB 1.5.36, purport] - one only need accept the truths about Him and His position that are already there for all to see. So whether our leaders are capitalists or communists or a democracy or a theocracy or a monarch or whatever - they all can keep their positions with - 'A Trancendental Education 101' - failing that - one can be sure that there ain't hope for anyone and - their precious positions shall indeed change - with time and circumstances - at the hands of God's material nature - tossing everything to and fro - so to speak. I just have to add this point - you write: 'Muslims are not to blame. They feel threatened because their homelands have been under attack and threat of attack since the ruling class realised it needed control over the region to secure a constant oil supply' - again - you seem to be in denial about the [global] islamic revolution - that is why they are fighting - even the recent letter written by the president of Iran to the president of the U.S.A. outlines that 'widespread' desire to dominate the world. You think that they are fighting for freedom and full autonomy but that simply isn't so. Muslims are not to blame but the islamic revolution is being forwarded and i think that you may even be inadvertently helping it to do so.

- no - i think there's a big enough 'load' of something already here on this thread... "BDM and co" [chuckles]

Hitler's extreme national socialism is only one example - as noted by samia 'every time it [socialism] has taken root the number of deaths is staggering' - that is a fact - despite all the rubbish of such revolutions being some ideological transformation where force is only reactionary. I didn't say you're anti-semite but - hearing your estimation of the so-called 'zionists' and the 'zionists state of israel' i wonder - certainly many many people have anti-semitic understandings but - they don't necessarily hate jews or israel. Can you see how that might happen?

So in that long essay which you've ignored there was this point about socialism and nazism: The word "Nazi" is a German abbreviation of the name of Hitler's political party -- the nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei. In English this translates to "The National Socialist German Worker's Party". So Hitler was a socialist and a champion of the workers -- or at least he identified himself as such and campaigned as such. Make no mistake Hitler was a leftist and a socialist - a so-called 'champion of workers' - however bent his understandings of socialism became - it was socialism all the same.

I hear talk of 'revolution like this and - I'm concerned - the very idea of encouraging 'the workers' [or anyone] to 'overthrow the state' - is disconcerting. The western states do not need such a fix and in those places that might - it's improvident to encourage people to such risks of themselves and/or others. In what manner do you propose this 'revolutionary overthrow of the state' to occur? You write: "If we as religious thinking people do not shun those fighting for a better world and actively attempt to speak with them constructively on issues of bringing about a revolution we can then take an active part in making that world and making it Holy, not through means of force but through the development of consciousness." Even though you apparently say "not through means of force" that comment tells me that you are inclined to fight [if even by well-wishing in your heart] along with the global islamic revolution [who by the way are not fighting for a better world] - you seem to think that a "revolution" is needed and that religious people should not 'shun those fighting for a better world' - you seem to say that is the answer to make the world 'holy' - that is interesting - when taken with your comments in these other postings: http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/world-review/413646-religion-responsible-israel-palestine-problem-2.html] "[muslims]have been targetted as the cause of economic problems that are actually caused by ruthless and inethical economic policies... Its easy for me to say though, I'm not a Muslim and can only imagine how appalling it must be to watch people of my faith being slaughtered and defiled on so many different fronts the world over, just as the Jewish population once experienced. How tolerant do we expect people to be and can we not understand when a group so harried for the natural resources present in their homelands resort to methods of violence to resist the extreme violence being meted upon them..." If Muslims seem to be in a bad light it's only because of the terror programs of radicals and militants that claim to be acting on behalf of Islam - the comparison to the persecutions of the Jews in previous times - is complete illusion. You explain away the islamic revolution's terrorism which is growing in our world in this statement: "...[muslims] have been targetted as the cause of economic problems that are actually caused by ruthless and inethical economic policies...How tolerant do we expect people to be and can we not understand when a group so harried for the natural resources present in their homelands resort to methods of violence to resist the extreme violence being meted upon them..." - that is factually a predaceous perspective. It is so much appolgetics for terrorists. Muslims are NOT being targetted in the manner in which you say - especially in North American nor can one see that in Europe either. "Socialism demands nothing of the people, it is an expression of their desire for a better world. It cannot be attained by force..." - that seems to contradict your ideas of the 'workers over-throwing the state' - as you seem to be saying that [since] it isn't by force that people become socialists but - it is by force that socialists and communists try to gain widespread control - it is a natural course. Without doubt - it is propaganda huckstering at the heart of any transformations of most peoples - into socialists and communists not - "an expression of their desire for a better world" that "desire for a better world" is what the 'propaganda hucksters' employ to blight the average person's political and economic undertandings hopes and expectations - especially when concering the less informed 'worker classes'. It's a desire for power - in a more absolute capacity that captures the 'others' to such 'collective predation' ideologies. These points do seem to eclipse one another in your postings. The kind of 'revolution' of which you speak is not constructive - look to Mao and the 'peoples revolution' - yes there's the model - of course - i do understand that you wish to add the 'vedic' concept to the socialism - however - i wonder about the end result - as contrasted to your call for revolution and with whom you'll identify in that effort. You wrote this in another posting on this thread: What I want is to engage in a dialectical discussion with someone and I'm getting a bit tired of the tit for tat nonesense that goes on in here. What do you mean when you say it sounds like you don't want to change my thinking? What's the point in saying that? I have had to change my thinking dramatically to come to the conclulsions that I have arrived at. I would still be an Iskcon numpty otherwise. I've been brainwashed and I've recovered with the help of people who have been willing to engage in debate and take on new ideas and I'm hoping to continue that trend. "I want is to engage in a dialectical discussion" - So that is what you've gotten from us "ISKCON numpty's" - i wonder how you can say that you were brainwashed [by ISKCON?] and that you "would still be an ISKCON numpty" and - still talk of Prabhupada's teachings. Who helped you to 'recover' [from what?] and how did they do that? One can hear you praise Marx [and his estimation of things] in many places within your postings and yet - you haven't really presented any substantive Prabhupada quotes? I wonder if it is that you wish to motivate 'less informed devotees' into your persepctive by a seeming connection to Prabhupada's position on these matters... Here is something that Srila Prabhupada stated - to a leader - which makes good sense and - it is a far better approach - than widespread Marxism and/or any other such [false] 'empower the people' programs: Prabhupada: No, but my proposition is that they should not commit, either the king or the elected person should not commit mistake. But if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view. Lord Brockway: Yes. Yes, but the mass of people in poverty, the... Prabhupada: No, everything will be all right. Because the man on the head is perfectly, he’ll manage, he’ll manage. But if he’s not perfect, then it is not possible. Therefore the endeavor should be made... Either call it dictator or president or king, it doesn’t matter. The man on the top of the executive must be a perfect man. [Room conversation with Lord Brockway, July 23, 1973] So that is an interesting point: ...if you try to educate the mass of people to become educated to elect the right person, that is very difficult. But if a king, a person, is educated nicely, that is easier. That is my point of view...Therefore the endeavor should be made... [to educate our leaders] and now with the WWW and their broad interest in things that are discussed around the world - they can become thus 'educated' as he notes. The point to know too is that the 'perfection' of which he speaks concerns position rather than actual personal perfection because - while no one is perfect - one can be 'perfectly situated'. So that is the idea. In so far as my understanding of Prabhupada that is the program to save the world. Sincerely,

We've done just that but you've dismissed the central facts out-of-hand in this connection...

Okay - bye bye...

How fortuitous of a position - huh? I think that it's this point of yours that's "inconsequential" - oh and - I was wondering - what nation is this "Socialist Worker Party" based in? Is it England? "Overall, despite the SWP hype, a very high percentage of Respect votes came from muslims - and the fact that this produced blatantly one-sided results on May 4 now lays bare the problems that were always going to arise in a much sharper light." http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/624/respect.htm