Jahnava Nitai Das

Sri Madhavendra Puri is the sprout of the great tree of devotional love represented in the world by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sri Madhavendra Puri comes from the line of Sri Madhvacarya, the acarya of the pure Dvaita (dualistic) philosophy. Sripad Madhavendra Puri was an acarya of the Madhva school and is the connecting link between the Madhva and Gaudiya sampradayas. This is accepted both by the Madhva sampradaya as well as by the Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya. Kavi Karnapura, Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana, and others have left authentic records to that effect. Worship of Radha-Krishna ************************ Sri Madhavendra Puri is widely recognized as the pioneer of the faith of transcendental love of Sri Krishna, which the Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu descended on earth to proclaim. The first effective start of madhurya-rasa upasana, or consort-service to the youthful Krishna, was really given by Sri Madhavendra Puri. Although the services to Krishna as the gopis rendered them in Vrndavana were not unknown in Madhva Mathas, the object of their service was Bala (baby) Gopala, and thus their mood of service could naturally only be in vatsalya-rasa, or parental affection. The famous poems of Sripad Madhavendra Goswami beginning with 'ayidina-dayadrea-natha,' 'kamprati kathaitumese,' and 'syamam eva param ruam,' not only indicate the highest achievement of the author but prove that even men of high religious culture of the time were quite strangers to the sublime thought of deep consort-love to ever-youthful Krishna. There is also a hint in his poem of the advent of a great apostle who would inaugurate extensive and organized propagation of this blossoming doctrine of sweet consort-service to the youthful and beautiful supreme person Sri Krishna. It is not difficult to see that this has happened with the appearance of the great Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his overflowing distribution of the nectarine treasure of loving service to the Supreme Krishna. Disciples of Madhavendra Puri ***************************** The two most prominent disciples of Madhavendra Puri were Isvara Puri and Advaita Acarya. He is also considered to be the guru (by instructions or by initiation) of Nityananda Prabhu. Isvara Puri would later become the spiritual master of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and give Him several instructions that would form the basis of the great sankirtan movement. Isvara Puri was a highly renounced pure devotee of the Lord. However it is understood that his primary qualification to become the spiritual master of the Lord Himself is that he received the mercy of Madhavendra Puri. In his old age Madhavendra Puri had become completely invalid and was served with great love and affection by Isvara Puri. Not only did Isvara Puri render menial service to his guru, he constantly recited the holy names and recited several pastimes of Krishna. Thus Madhavendra Puri, being very pleased with him, blessed him, saying, 'My dear boy, I can only pray to Krishna that He will be pleased with you.' Thus Isvara Puri, by the grace of his spiritual master, Sri Madhavendra Puri, became a great devotee in the ocean of love of Godhead. Paramananda Puri, a sannyasi disciple of Madhavendra Puri, would later become a very close associate of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. It is described in the Caitanya-bhagavata, Antya-khanda, Chapter Three, that when Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu first saw Paramananda Puri, He made the following statement: 'My eyes, My mind, My religious activities and My acceptance of the sannyasa order have now all become perfect because today Madhavendra Puri is manifest before Me in the form of Paramananda Puri.' Gopala Deity of Madhavendra Puri ******************************** The pastime of the Gopala Deity was related by Caitanya Mahaprabhu to Nityananda Prabhu in Remuna as a glorification of Madhavendra Puri (Caitanya Caritamrta, Madhya lila chapter 4). Madhavendra Puri was living in Vrndavana, right by Govardhana. Here he was first visited by a charming young cowherd boy who gave him a pot of milk to drink and then disappeared. Later the same boy appeared in a dream and told Madhavendra Puri that He was buried in a Deity form in a particular forest within Vrndavana. He told Madhavendra Puri, 'Please find Me there and install a nice temple for Me.' Immediately Madhavendra Puri arose, gathered some associates, and went to find the Deity. Sure enough, there was the Gopala Deity in the very same form that he saw in his dream. Madhavendra Puri then established a very nice temple on top of Govardhana Hill. Everyone of course appreciated this discovery of this buried and lost Deity. Madhavendra Puri became a very celebrated person. Later on, Madhavendra Puri had another dream where the Deity instructed him further, 'I have been under ground for so long that My body is very hot. So could you please go to Puri and gather a certain quantity of sandalwood and camphor, which you can then apply to My body to relieve Me of this burning heat.' Again, Madhavendra Puri immediately awoke from his dream and, without sparing a moment, he left that evening, heading for Orissa. While on his way to Puri he stopped also in Remuna, where he observed the beautiful Deity of Gopinatha in a temple that is very famous for the ksira (sweet rice made of condensed milk) that they offer. It was Madhavendra Puri's practice that he did not eat anything unless somebody offered him something. He never went and begged, either. Only if somebody offered him something would he eat. In other words, Madhavendra Puri was a completely sense controlled individual, on the paramahamsa platform. Yet Madhavendra Puri was thinking, 'I would like to learn how they make this preparation for Gopinatha, so that then I can make it for my Deity, Gopala.' Just as this thought came into his mind, Madhavendra Puri felt completely ashamed that he was thinking of enjoying the sweet rice before it had been offered to the Deity. He was so ashamed that he immediately left the presence of the Deity and spent the night in the market place. That evening the pujari had a dream, wherein the Deity of Gopinatha appeared to him and said, 'I have stolen some ksira (sweet rice) and put it behind the altar. Although it is at night, I want you to come into the altar area, go behind My form and find this ksira. Then I want you to take into the market place and find Madhavendra Puri. Call out in the market place, 'Madhavendra Puri, are you here? I have something for you from Gopinatha!'' For this pastime the Deity of Gopinatha is now famously known as Ksira-cora or One who stole sweet rice for His devotee. Immediately the pujari woke and, after bathing, he went into the altar area. Sure enough, just as the Deity had instructed him, there was the ksira. Immediately, he could understand that this Madhavendra Puri, was no ordinary soul but one who was very much loved by his worshipable Deity, Gopinatha. So he went into the market place as the Deity instructed him and called out, 'Madhavendra Puri, are you here? Madhavendra Puri!' As soon as he found Madhavendra Puri, he offered his full obeisances to him, explained what had been in his dream, and gave the ksira to Madhavendra Puri. As he gave the ksira to Madhavendra Puri, he saw the symptoms of transcendental love of Godhead that were manifesting in his person upon receiving this gift from the Deity. It was not just some humble expression, but bodily symptoms of transcendental love of God. The pujari then returned, and Madhavendra Puri accepted the sweet rice. He then kept the clay pots, washing them, and breaking them into small pieces like powder, which he kept in a cloth. Everyday he would eat a little piece of the pot as his foodstuff. Madhavendra Puri then went to Puri and finally made the arrangements by speaking to the pujaris, explaining all that happened. They immediately gathered all the camphor and sandalwood, and Madhavendra Puri began the long journey all the way back to Vrndavana, carrying the very large and heavy quantity of these items. On the way, he again stopped in Remuna, where he had another dream in which his Deity, Gopala, appeared and said, 'Give this camphor and sandalwood to Gopinatha. In this way the requirement for having my heated condition of body diminished will also be taken care of.' Very obediently, Madhavendra Puri did this. He went directly to the pujari and explained what had happened. The pujari certainly accepted the words of Madhavendra Puri and graciously accepted the sandalwood and camphor. Madhavendra Puri stayed there for some time. The hut (kutir) where he stayed, 550 or 600 years ago, is still there, along with some of his paraphernalia. That is what Lord Caitanya saw when he visited Remuna. Exemplary devotee ***************** Madhavendra Puri was very much averse to receiving glorification or respect of any kind from anyone. He deliberately made so many arrangements to avoid the public. He was a very famous spiritual personality, so wherever he went, even before he arrived in that village, word spread, 'Madhavendra Puri is approaching. He is endowed with great love of God.' He knew that wherever he went crowds and crowds of people would come just to pay their respect to him and, if possible, get some association. But he was very much averse to this respect from others, so he made so many complicated arrangements just to avoid it. Although Madhavendra Puri was in the topmost stages of devotion, he regularly kept chanting on beads, as did Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He was in the stage of prema-bhakti. In fact, in Remuna there is a set of beads that Madhavendra Puri chanted on, and one can see how worn they are. He did not occasionally chant; he regularly performed chanting with numerical counting on japa-mala. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also performed this chanting on beads regularly, although Krishna Himself. So everyone can take that nice example of the perfection of life and take to regular chanting of the holy name, with counting on beads, as well as in sankirtana. Glororification of Madhavendra Puri in Caitanya Caritamrita ************************************************************ Cc Madhya 4.1 I offer my respectful obeisances unto Madhavendra Puri, who was given a pot of sweet rice stolen by Sri Gopinatha, celebrated thereafter as Ksira-cora. Being pleased by Madhavendra Puri's love, Sri Gopala, the Deity at Govardhana, appeared to the public vision. Cc Adi 9.10 All glories to Sri Madhavendra Puri, the storehouse of all devotional service unto Krishna! He is a desire tree of devotional service, and it is in him that the seed of devotional service first fructified. This article is based on : An article first published in THE HARMONIST in 1936 by Sridhara Maharaja A talk given by His Holiness Romapada Swami Maharaja in New York, March 19th 1989

No, actually I wouldn't consider myself a devotee at all. One day by the mercy of guru and Gauranga it may be possible.

Perhaps thats the difference between me and you. I am not interested in trying to invalidate your parampara. Follow it, chant Hare krishna, and be happy. I have only posted a reply when my own parampara has been insulted.

I won't waste much time on this reply, but I will just mention a couple obvious points that deserve to be stated. Nitai Das had a vendetta against Prabhupada because Prabhupada had him kicked out of ISKCON for deviant behavior. The Babaji he heard from had a vendetta against Bhaktisiddhanta because Bhaktisiddhanta exposed the illicit activities of the false Babajis of Vrindavana. To make it even more authoritative, Nitai Das (the author of the article) can't even remember the name of the Babaji he heard it from. So what we have is this: A babaji who disliked Bhaktisiddhanta says Bhaktisiddhanta never actually received initiation. Another younger babaji who also didn't like Bhaktisiddhanta heard this, and 50 years later tells the same to Nitai Das (who also doesn't like Prabhupada/Bhaktisiddhanta). Nitai Das can't remember the name of this Babaji, but nevertheless he spreads it as an authoritative truth. Is that called a rumor? I would think so. Was there any motive behind spreading this rumor against their enemies? I would think so. Sri Chaitanya Himself accepted ekadanda sannyasa, as have countless Vaishnava Acharyas in other lines. Sannyasa is an order of life within the system of varnashrama dharma. What ever type of sannyasa was prominent and available at the time was generally accepted by the sadhus. Many of these personalities received bala-sannyasa while they were only 5 or 6 years old. It had nothing to do with which philosophy they followed. No, you are wrong. 100 years ago everyone in India wore kaupinam. Maybe in the west it is an amazing and intriguing item of clothing, but here it isn't. Even today you will find farmers still wear it when working in the fields. Actually, they only wear it and nothing else. They have to stand in the hot sun all day, so they prefer to take off their outer garments and wear only kaupinam as they work. And yes, this includes Bengal and Orissa; as well as Tamil nadu. If one wears kaupinam, one is considered fully clothed. All Vaishnavas and Shaivites shave their head if they are strictly following the smriti shastras. Thanks for pointing that out. I do know sanskrit, and I stand by my translation, with the exception that nitya refers to "daily" as in the usage "nitya-naimittika", which the Hari-bhakti-vilasa is called as ("nitya-naimittika-shastra"). Thus the verses states, "One should daily put on fresh and clean cloth." The Hari-bhakti-vilasa states one should not wear torn cloth and one should daily wear white cloth. In a culture where everyone wears white clothe anyway, this indicates that the cloth should not be stained or dirty. This is a general rule, and not an absolute injunction. Sri Chaitanya's associates are describes as wearing many different colored dhoties in the kirtan party - blue, yellow, white, etc. And since you are so particular on this verse, would you then apply it is a standard injunction for everyone? Should women also only wear white cloth? And if not why the sudden change? The fact is it is not a universal injunction. I have lived many years in West Bengal, and I can assure you that you are wrong. Your first problem is you fail to understand what is a "mayavadi". However one defines "mayavadi" according to traditional means, "mayavadis" make up but a fraction of the sadhu community - either in Bengal or in other states of India. This is why I say there must be a wider understanding of the greater Vedic tradition before these topics can be discussed. Without establishing the padarthas, communication is meaningless. Yes, the tilak is based on one's bhavam and process of sharanagati. I would suggest you undertake a more thorough study of this topic with reference to the change in tilaks between branches of various sampradayas. Are you certain? This verse from Hari-bhakti vilasa refers to the sampradaya's mudras, not to the parivars tilak. There are only four sampradayas in the Vaishnava line, and their mudras are the shanka, chakra, gada, and padma. The actual mudra is 'tapa'. It should be burnt into one's skin with an iron brand. But seeing that we are very adverse to sacrifice (and pain), the Goswami's have given us an easy alternative - gopi-chandana. I'm thankful for that. I would suggest you undertake a thorough study of your own lineage and the texts written within it. Which texts by the Goswamis are written in Hindi? Which texts by the Goswamis are written in Bengali? And as a side note, the present spoken bengali has very little similarity with medieval bengali, as is the case with the present Oriya and the medieval Oriya, and present Tamil and medieval Tamil. For example, most Tamils cannot understand the writings of the Alvhars. Nor can most Oriyans understand the writings of Jagannatha Das. So even if one knew Bengali, he wouldn't be able to understand the non-existent Bengali books written by the Goswamis. The main reason is they are non-existent. The secondary reason is the language is different. You are wrong. Your above claim makes me doubt your knowledge of sanskrit. Please prove me wrong. The verse you quote says nothing that you claim. It says one must come from a tradition where samskaras are performed. To show I am wrong and you are write, please post the verse with your break down of the contents. Then I can reply appropriately. Otherwise your claims, which are based on non-existent verse, can not be answered. Here is a relevant point you didn't deal with: The claim was that "the Vedas say..." and then he quotes a verse from Chaitanya-charitamrita. Please show me the verses from the Vedas that actually make the claimed statement, as the Chaitanya-charitamrita does not come within one of the Vedas. Please don't try to defend such a foolish point. When someone says the "Vedic literature", I can let it stretch. But when someone says "the Vedas", then it is specifically refering to the four Vedas. And last time I checked, the Chaitanya-charitamrita was not one of the four (though it is a very great text on spiritual life). Another point to ponder: No, this isn't acurate. A 'tyagi' is a renunciate. There are three main lines of renunciation, that of sannyasa, that of the babajis, and that of the avadhuta. There are Vaishnava saints and acharyas belonging to all the three lines. Thus Vaishnava-tyagi can refer to any of these three. I think you missed my answer:

That's funny, becaue these forums never had anything to do with Gaudiya Vaishnavism until some cyber babas came in from the old VNN forums. And the first thing they post is a cut and paste article that Bhaktisiddhanta was bogus. And then they complain why their babajis are being attacked. That's really funny, because I have never seen their babajis get attacked here in these forums, not until after they came with the cut and paste keys. Where ever these people go, there is argument and fighting. Perhaps it is a sign of their prema? Or maybe they are empowered by their babajis? Actually, as Shvu said, some people just get kicks arguing on the internet. It makes them feel like somebody. They really have no purpose, they're not interested in convincing anyone - they've been arguing for years. The purpose of their argument is to argue - technically called jalpa. But when they do it repeatedly it becomes "complete", or pra-jalpa. Their own acharya, Sri Rupa Goswami, advises against this: This is what seems to happen when Christians become Hindu, they want to continue their "crusades" where ever they go. What is needed is sat-bhava or sadhu-bhava. But that is not something you learn from your books. You cant cut and paste it on top of yourself. Sat-bhava can only come by living and serving sadhus in a traditional manner. But that requires sacrifice, and is therefore not popular - neither in India nor in the west. What _is_ popular is false pride. The conception that "I am a devotee". When in reality Krishna won't touch any of us with a ten foot stick. Why? Because we are expert at externally showing our devotion, but have no internal detachment from raga and bhaya. As Krishna says in the Gita: vita-raga-bhaya-krodha man-maya mam upashritah Without being free from fear and anger it is not possible to be absorbed in the Lord. bahavo jnana-tapasa puta mad-bhavam agatah Without being purified by knowledge and penance one can not attain sat-bhava, nor love for Krishna. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-15-2001).]

Thats a funny version of the story. What really happened was Ananta Vasudeva was seeing a prostitute in Navadvipa, and fathered an ilegitimate child (while claiming to be the jagat-guru and acharya of the matha). When he was caught, he left the Gaudiya matha (taking his prostitute with him) and joined a babaji in Vrindavana (because that babaji had no problem with him staying with the prostitute). Later the prostitute found another man, and she gave poison to kill the son of Ananta Vasudeva (who was around 10 at the time). After this Ananta Vasudeva committed suicide by consuming poison. This is the great history of this man. But some babajis like to quote him as though he was a great acharya. His offense was that he usurped the position of acharya without the authority of his spiritual master, Bhaktisiddhanta. Later he committed countless offenses to pure devotees, such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja and others. The results speak for themselves. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-14-2001).]

Thats funny. I didn't see any of that in this thread up till now. What I saw ws someone saying that if I chanted mahamantra out loud I was disagreeing with Mahaprabhu. Since the thread is going in another direction, I will add my second "if" statement. If someone were to tell me that Nitai was Radha and Gaura was Krishna, I would have to disagree personally; just as I would have to disagree personally if they told me I shouldn't chant the Mahamantra out loud. Nothing wrong with them thinking like that (free universe and all), but I, personally, would disagree with them.

I would disagree. Arjuna never received mantra diksha from Sri Krishna, yet he did receive divya-jnanam. As such Arjuna is a disciple of Lord Krishna in "parampara" (Krishna's word for it). The mantra is the deity manifested in sound. It is possible to realize the deity directly without the mantra as well. Again the case of Ramanuja is relevant, where his diksha guru was different from his mantra guru. What diksha did he receive? Only divya-jnanam by the mercy of Yamunacharya. Later he received mantra diksha, and subsequently disobeyed his mantra-guru by openly revealing the mantra to the public. His link to the parampara was through siksha, which itself was non-different from diksha, for realized siksha is divya-jnanam.

"The Festival in Kheturi" Devotees arrive The devotees of Jajigram came together with Shrinivas Acarya and Govinda Kaviraj. Ramchandra came as well, providing the opportunity for his friendship with Narottam to blossom. From Narasinghapur, in Orissa, came Shyamananda Pandit and his followers, including Rasik Murari. Jahnava Ma and Her entire entourage came from Khardaha. From the Shrikhanda district came Raghunandana Thakura and many other devotees. Shrivasa Thakura's brothers came from Navadvipa, and Advaita Acharya's sons came from Shantipur. Hridoy Chaitanya travelled from Ambika Kalna, as did many other Gaudiya mohants. This is just a brief sampling of the devotees who attended. Since all of these exalted souls travelled from their respective towns -largely by walking -they gathered new followers along the way, telling everyone they met about the fabulous festival that would soon take place at Kheturi. Hundreds snowballed into thousands, and over the course of one week they all reached the borders of West Bengal. Santosh Datta arranged for dozens of colossal boats to ferry back and forth as devotees needed to cross the river. Once the devotees were in East Bengal, luxurious palanquins and huge oxcarts carried them to Kheturi-gram. The hosts -Narottam, Shrinivas, and Santosh Datta -greeted everyone as they arrived, offering each guest a flower garland and welcoming them with great affection. All the devotees were given separate accomodations with personal servants to tend to their needs. The guest of honour, Jahnava Ma (Acharyani), was the senior and most respected Vaishnava at the event, and so Narottam specifically worshiped her with flowers and chandan, and encouraged the devotees to do the same. Actually, the role of Jahnava Ma at te Kheturi festival should be properly highlighted. Within the Gaudiya sampradaya, diverse philosophical conceptions were coming to the fore, such as Gaura-nagari-bhava, Rasa-raj, Gaura-paramyavad (the teaching that Mahaprabhu is the Ultimate Godhead), Nitai-paramyavad, Advaita-paramyavad, and other variations as well. Each of these conceptions embodied distinct nuances, too complex to illuminate in this short book. Jahnava as the leading Vaishnava of the time, mediated on behalf of all these camps and resolved their differences to the satisfaction of the Gaudiya orthodoxy. Thus, her presence was especially appreciated by Narottam Thakura. After worshiping Jahnava Devi in the appropriate way and showing proper respect to all the assembled Vaishnavas, Raghunandana Thakura sang the invocation prayers signifying an extremely holy event. A huge kirtan ensued well into the night as a preparation for the actual festival, which began on the following day (...) After the Deities were installed according to the strictures of smriti-sastra, the edible offerings as well as the flower garlands were given to Jahnava, who then gave Shrinivas, Narottam, Shyamananda and Santosh Datta her direct remnants. Then, the rest of the devotees feasted and discussed Krishna for many hours. Finally, the devotees went into the large, ornate kirtan hall, where Narottam began to lead a moving, deliberate kirtan in his own distinct style. This came to be known as the Garan-hati form of kirtan, with its mellow, unmistakable melodies and its rich emotional content. It was based on the classical drupada technique, which is serene and majestic (...) Just as Narottam's kirtan came to an end, Jahnava Devi began new festivities. She approached the newly installed Deities and offered a special form of red powder, the kind that Radha and Krsna throw at each other during their Holi festival. After the Deities enjoyed the dye, Jahnava Ma instructed the devotees to take the many buckets of colored dye and commemorate the Holi festival by throwing it at each other. Before the words had emanated from her lips, however, the devotees -thousands of them -were throwing the dye with great enthusiasm, enjoying remembrance of Radha and Krishna's fun-loving pastime. This took the devotees well into the night, and then they joyfully celebrated Mahaprabhu's appearance festival with specially composed songs about His divine birth and early pastimes. The next morning, Jahnava Ma and a team of experienced cooks, trained by her, prepared breakfast for all of the devotees. Then with a few assistants she personally fed the devotees with her own hands. Only when everyone else had completed their meal did Jahnava herself sit down and enjoy the remnants. This was her humility. The festival lasted for three days, but for the attending Vaishnavas it was the experience of a lifetime (...) For a number of complex reasons, the Kheturi festival is considered one of the most important milestones in Vaishnava history (...)" [From "The Lives of the Vaishnava Saints" by Steven Rosen]

kSAntir avyartha-kAlatvaM viraktir mAna-zunyatA AzA-bandhaH samutkaNThA nAma-gAne sadA ruciH Asaktis tad-guNAkhyAne prItis tad-vasati-sthale ity Adayo 'nubhAvAH syur jAta-bhAvAGkure jane "When the seed of ecstatic emotion for KRSNa fructifies, the following nine symptoms manifest in ones behavior: forgiveness, concern that time should not be wasted, detachment, absence of false prestige, hope, eagerness, a taste for chanting the holy name of the Lord, attachment to descriptions of the transcendental qualities of the Lord, and affection for those places where the Lord resides--that is, a temple or a holy place like VRndAvana. These are all called anubhAva, subordinate signs of ecstatic emotion. They are visible in a person in whose heart the seed of love of God has begun to fructify."

I received the following in the email today: SPOKEN SAMSKRITA SEMINARS BEGIN AT KIEV A 3-month tour of Europe and the United States to promote spoken Samskrita in ISKCON. Dear Readers, Namonamaha. Hare Krishna! Acharya Samskritananda Hari and Basu Ghosh Das (an American-born disciple of Srila Prabhupada who has been serving in India for the past 27 years) Temple President of ISKCON-Baroda, inaugurated the first of several Spoken Samskrita seminars at Kiev, Ukraine, on 9 May 2001, to a group of more than twenty devotees of ISKCON from Kiev and various other places in the Ukraine. The aim of the seminars is to help devotees and friends of ISKCON to develop, in the shortest amount of time, a working knowledge of this most beautiful language of the Vedas. The seminar in Kiev came to fruition primarily due to the enthusiasm of Sriman Achyuta Priya Prabhu, ISKCON Regional Secretary for Ukraine, after he had attended the first of the past two annual Spoken Samskrita seminars held at ISKCON's World Headquarters, Sridham Mayapur, West Bengal. This year the seminar at Mayapur was part of the MIHE, organized by Janmastami Prabhu. Acharya Samskritananda Hari commented that for the first time in Ukraine, a number of prabhus, matajis, and also several senior students participated in such a Spoken Samskrita workshop. He noted that most of the participants were able to pronounce the words correctly, and that they would take notes on what they were hearing during the seminar. "It is my hope that very quickly this entire group will be speaking in Samskritam," he said. Achyuta Priya Prabhu commented: "For me, the semiar is like learning an old truth that I forgot, because we are exposed to Samskritam every day, and we know so many shlokas and have so much information, but this information is not so systematic in terms of language. After attending the seminar Samskritam now looks very familiar." Damodar Charan Das Brahmachari, a native of Chernovtsy in Western Ukraine, graduate computer programmer, and ISKCON devotee for the past ten years in Ukraine commented: "It was a surprising experience, because from the very beginning we started to speak in Samskritam. It was a wonderful and memorable introduction to Samskritam--a very good samskara. Ishwari devi dasi, a native of Odessa (the large, well-known resort city located on the shore of the Black Sea in Ukraine), graduate of Moscow State University, and ISKCON devotee for the past seven years, commented that she could now understand the importance of speaking in Samskritam. In fact, when she was a student at Moscow State University it was her desire to learn Samskritam. She very much appreciated the method employed at the seminar for speaking Samskritam. She was demtermined to memorize the "Samskrita-panchamritam," the five key sentences presented in the first session. However, she found it a bit difficult to concentrate on the subject matter for the entire three-hour period. Govardhandhari das, from Chernigov, graduate of a Polytechnical Institute, and ISKCON devotee in the Northern Ukraine since 1983, said that he had actually been dreaming for his entire life to learn Samskritam. "I very much enjoyed hearing spoken Samskritam at the seminar and repeating the lesson along with the group," he said. "I found it a bit difficult because I couldn't understand the entire plan, nor do I understand how I will be able to continue to study at home after the seminar." The next seminar will be held at the Oxford Institute for Vaishnava and Hindu Studies at Oxford, England. Following that, seminars will be held in June and July at various locations throughout the United States, some of which will be ISKCON's school in North Carolina, New Vrindavan, Seattle, and San Francisco. Besides the 2-week and 10-day formats, there will also be several "intensive" 3-day seminars.

There were a couple babaji's in ISKCON. For example, there was a devotee who was diagnosed with a temrinal disease. He was only supposed to have a few months to live. He went to Prabhupada and said, give me babaji initiation. Prabhupada didn't want to, but after the disciple continued to push for it Prabhupada agreed. He went to Radhakunda and chanted a little while, and then guess what? He didn't die! When he realized he wasn't actually going to die, he went back to the west, got married and lived like an ordinary person. What was the use of falsely renouncing without inner qualification? When the objects of the senses are again perceptable, we jump for them forgetting Krishna, Rama and all other gods we were worshipping. There are also plenty (many more) babajis outside iskcon who did similar things. If you really want to be a babaji or a sannyasi, do it internally without showing the external world. Appear as a fallen materialist, while internally engaging in pure Krishna bhajan. Such renunciation will be free from false pride.

Geez, this argument is ridiculous. I mean really, really childish. You were the one who said the maha-mantra should not be chanted aloud! And now you are saying we have something against people who chant silently. Please re-read the thread one more time, especially this part: See, if someone were to tell me not to chant loudly, I would disagree personally. Is it any clearer now? Your making it out as though me or others are against you chanting softly Please go on chanting. It purifies the universe.

Yeah, don't take it too seriously. We just don't want people changing their words in an old debate so it looks like they won If we didn't mention it, someone would eventually do it.

I should have used the word "we" and not "you", as I wasn't actually meaning you in particular. Sorry for the mistake.

I think thats where debate comes from We all agree on peace, but disagree on what is truth.

Diksha is the transfer of divya-jnanam from the guru to the disciple. This process of transference is done through upadesha or instruction. Thus there is no difference between siksha and diksha in the real meaning of the words. The problem is some people misidentify diksha with an external ritual and procedure - an 'intiation ceremony'. Thus they see a lack of a ceremony as indicating there was no diksha, or no transference of divya-jnanam. The actual transference of divya-jnanam has no connection with external rituals. Thus diksha occurs in a very sublte way between the guru and disciple. We can see the case of Ramanuja Acharya who received diksha without having even met his spiritual master. By the will and mercy of Yamunacharya, Ramanuja received the divya-jnanam. This is the essence of the siksha parampara, which is actually non-different from the essential diksha parampara. The parampara of external rituals may be easier to measure and quantify, but it is just the interaction of the material elements. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-13-2001).]

I just thought I would mention that those who perform shivambu are supposed to drink a very large amount of water every day. The result is their urine is completely clear color, and much less concentrated than what one would normally experience.

I remember a long time ago I saw a documentary on a community located next to one of these big power generating plants. And they were showing how all the houses in the vicinity had cases of cancer.

Bhagavad Gita 17:25 tad ity anabhisandhaya phalam yajna-tapah-kriyah dana-kriyas ca vividhah kriyante moksa-kanksibhih Without desiring fruitive results, one should perform various kinds of sacrifice, penance and charity with the word tat. The purpose of such transcendental activities is to get free from material entanglement.

Actually I wasn't refering to you So we have multiple culprits. The problem with the editing feature and old threads is the thread will not appear as new (at the top of the list). So no one knows the thread has been changed. Anyway, these features are new, so it may take a little time to get use to.

S a n g a Tuesday, April 24, 2001 "Vraja-bhakti is not a cheap thing that we can wave about and denigrate even God with, thinking it is our property merely because we've heard about it. It involves giving up selfishness and entering the domain of self forgetfulness." Q&A discussion with Swami B.V. Tripurari. Q. I heard recently that someone is saying that Sri Advaita Acarya cannot give Vraja-bhakti. Do you agree? A. Advaita cannot give Vraja bhakti in the sense that this is Krsna's prerogative. Thus he calls for Krsna's descent. However, the Advaita parivara (the lineage coming from Advaita) does facilitate the development of Vraja bhakti, and through this lineage he does distribute Vraja bhakti. In a general sense Advaita is Maha Visnu, but in the role of Advaita he tastes Vraja bhakti himself. The Advaita parivara considers him to be a partial incarnation of Yogamaya. Kavi Karnapura gives this position to his consort, Sita. Overall we consider the two as one, Sitadvaita (and different). The lineage of Advaita teaches that Advaita initiated both of his young wives and instructed them in manjari seva, just as Purnamasi initiated and trained the two dutis (gopi messengers) Vira and Vrinda in Vraja and instructed them in manjari seva. Advaita himself was initiated by Madhavendra Puri, in whom the seed of Vraja bhakti first manifested. Advaita also worshipped the yugala murti of Radha Krsna in Santipura. We should be very careful when discussing the position of persons like Advaita Acarya. He is God himself and a personal associate of Mahaprabhu. If we denigrate him in any way, we will go down. The Vraja gopis worship even the Sun God, what to speak of Narayana. Their bhakti is characterized by the humility and respect for others mandated by Mahaprabhu that extends to even the inanimate. Vraja bhakti is not merely a theory that we can gather in our head by collecting information. It is not a cheap thing that we can wave about and denigrate even God with, thinking it our property merely because we have heard about it. It involves giving up selfishness and entering the domain of self forgetfulness. Smaranam involves maranam. We must die in this plane of material ego to live in the plane of dedication and love. Q. If someone has not developed a feeling for manjari bhava even though initiated by a sat guru who probably does (this person has a deep feeling for Krsna but in some other manner, one that coincides perhaps with some other sampradaya, e.g. the Kumara sampradaya), should this person continue following their guru but in their own bhava or should they find another guru? A. If one's guru is attached to manjari bhava, this does not necessarily mean that all of his disciples will develop this same bhava. Thakura Bhaktivinoda taught that one's svarupa, which is constituted of bhava, is inherent in the heart in a seed form. Through diksa, siksa, and the requisite spiritual practices it develops, 'krsna prema nitya siddha, sadhya kabhu nay, sravanadi sudha citte, karaye udaya.' When the disciple reaches the stage of ruci, the guru will guide him in terms of cultivating that ruci. If he deems it necessary to send his disciple to a siksa guru who is attached to the sentiment that corresponds with his disciple's ruci, he will do so. Overall this should not be a concern. Your ruci will guide you, when you attain this advanced stage. The 'deep feeling' you mention must correspond with other symptoms of advancement in order that it be considered spiritual rather than merely a mental consideration. Q. In a previous Sanga you said, 'Because while ordinarily the yuga avatara of Kali yuga disseminates nama sankirtana and thus delivers the people of the age, in this Kali yuga Krsna himself (svayam bhagavan) has come in the place of the yuga avatara in the ecstasy of Srimati Radharani.' Who then is the ordinary Kali yuga avatar? A. The yuga avatara is Gaura Narayana. He engages in sankirtana and delivers the world with taraka brahma maha mantra. His emphasis is thus on devotional liberation as opposed to the prema of sringara rasa. Our Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Radha Krsna coming in the place of this yuga avatara. Thus the activities of the yuga avatara are similar to those of our Mahaprabhu, but in this special Kali yuga the dispensation is higher. What he came to give has not been given for a long time. It happens once in the day of Brahma (if we are lucky). Q. It is said that hearing the holy name from a non-devotee is like tasting milk touched by the lips of a serpent. But if Krsna's name, pastimes etc. are absolute and transcendental, how can they become contaminated? A. The holy name cannot become contaminated. However, when those who do not have faith in Krsna speak about him, they share their lack of faith with us. They may have many misconceptions about Krsna, and hearing these misconceptions will not help us to understand the actual position of Krsna. We should hear about Krsna from advanced devotees, and as we gradually develop in terms of sambandha jnana (a proper conceptual orientation), we will be better situated to chant purely. Of course if one is advanced and expert, he or she can 'take gold from a filthy place.' This kind of devotee can take the good and leave the bad behind, just as a swan can separate milk from water. Sometimes nondevotees do say insightful thinks about Krsna. Indeed, everyone is talking only about Krsna. This is the vision of great souls. Q. In a previous Sanga you talked about deva-lila and nara-lila. If in the deva-lila there is no change in Krsna's body, how can the desire of Satyavrata Muni, who is always desiring to see the Gopal form of the Lord, be satisfied? A. The verses of Satyavrata Muni in his Damodarastakam are progressive realizations that take place over Yugas. His final aspiration is expressed in these words, 'namo radhikayai tvadiya priyayai, namonanta lilaya devaya tubhyam.' He desires to enter the lila of Radha Krsna and prays to Sri Radha. Otherwise it is true that in the deva-lila Krsna is an adolescent (Kishore). At the same time, each of the ages of Krsna, kumara, pauganda, and kishore, are eternal. Passing from one place they appear in another. Sri Jiva Goswami deals with this subject matter in his Krsna sandarbha. Q. Western indologists say the Vedic scriptures are not 5,000 years old nor were they written by one person. With references to linguistics and the differences in the style of sanskrit, etc., they contradict everything our tradition says about the history of India's sacred literatures. What are we to think about this? A. You should not be too concerned about the dating of the scriptures. Be assured the knowledge within them remains timeless. They come through the parampara system and in this sense they come from one author. Guru is one while appearing in many forms. Scripture represents the meeting of time and eternity. At this juncture, the eternal takes on a temporal appearance, while speaking to us about that which is eternal. If we take the scripture to heart, we will experience eternality. What then must its nature be? Q. Why do you wear tilaka? A. Tilaka is the symbol that differentiates one lineage from another. Adorning oneself with Visnu tilaka is a sign of love. Devotees often write the name of their deity on their sadhaka deha (practitioner's body) as well. Krnsa wears tilaka because he is a Vaisnava and his family worships Narayana. If you want to know why Narayana wears tilaka you will have to ask someone from his sampradaya

This forum is for discussing world events. It does not have to be spiritual discussion. It could be about politics, about social issues, about sports - whatever you feel like discussing.

It is true that this edit feature can be abused, and I have noticed it has happened at least once so far, where someone comes many days later and changes their statement. But I also feel most of the users here are mature enough to be trusted. The editing feature is to correct spelling, grammar, or general mistakes in a post - or to remove an offensive statement that one wishes to take back. It is not to be used to secretly insert another line of argument into an old thread, to make it appear that the other side was not able to reply to that point. And it is not to be used to change one's words so that the later replies look foolish. If one has accidentally forgotten to mention a key point in a message,they should post a second message saying, "One more point...". They should not add the new point into an old message where replies are already there. When ever someone edits a message, a note is sent to the moderator informing him, and the edited post will be compared to the archived version. Thus it will be very simple to check who has changed the context of their messages. If anyone continues to do this, we will have to take appropriate action. For the time being, everything will be left to the discretion of the users. I trust everyone, and they are mature enough to make their own destinies so to speak.

Here I would disagree. There are plenty of ulterior motives possible. The most obvious motive is fame, followers, respect, adoration, etc. Just see someone like Sai Baba, who can also perform miracles. Despite his miracles, he is a homosexual who abuses children. What is the use of measuring one's spiritual position by material miracles? Everyone thought Sai Baba taught bhakti. Millions of followers were fooled. When you try to find a saint by a material measurement (in this case mundane miracles) you will fail. In India everyone is attributed miracles after they die. There are so many motivating factors involved. To increase the prominence of the matha, to create an avatara, to bring tourists, etc. Maybe the purpose is to fool young children so that they can be molested by a miracle performing "saint". No. The real miracle is instilling pure bhakti in the hearts of millions of souls.