Jahnava Nitai Das

Brahma-jyoti is a gaudiya usage for the impersonal Brahman. In their conception there are three features of the Absolute Truth, namely brahman (brahma-jyoti), paramatma, and bhagavan. Impersonalists who attain mukti merge themselves into this brahmajyoti (or spiritual light), but according to Gaudiyas, they do not actually lose their identity, and they again fall down after unlimited units of non-existent time (or simply an immeasurable duration). They are being cheated out of service to Lord Krishna, which some consider the inherent quality of all souls (or as Prabhupada says, the sanatana dharma). To attain the position of impersonal brahmananda is considered by some as a hellish situation, as there is no opportunity to render service to Lord Krishna. It would be better to remain within the material world and engage in service to the Lord then to attain impersonal liberation, or so they say. Now, is it cheating if the Lord promises, "You will come to Me." and "Do not fear!" yet in reality they do not get to attain his abode of service? Some would say yes.

But what will be the result of someone who performs bhakti desiring Krishna prema, but his nature is that he belongs to the brahma-jyoti. For him bhakti will have no actual fruit, nothing greater than jnana, vairagya, etc. But what is the jiva's svarupa? Sri Chaitanya says jivera svarupa haya krishnera nitya dasa. According to him everyone's svarupa is as a servant of Krishna. Thus how is it possible for them not to attain service to Krishna by engaging in Krishna bhakti?

So what will happen to a person destined for brahma-jyoti who performs bhakti? And what was the use of Sri Chaitanya distributing vraja-prema to all if it wasn't actually attainable except to those who were inherently devotees of that nature? These are natural questions that will come up.

I think there was a kalki bubble created, which had no real demand. After 2000 the Kalki bubble burst, and a lot of people were left with nothing concrete to hold on to. But those Kalkis that had strong fundamentals managed to weather the big crash; and eventually as the Kali yuga progresses, they may even rise to the undisputed position of God, that is if they can gather enough votes and strategic investors. Strategic partnerships are essential when demand is shrinking and supply is increasing.

So is your conclusion that some of us are only destined to attain the brahma-jyoti, and therefore there is no chance to attain Krishna prema?

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Just testing the "Reply with Quote" button.

By the way, if anyone has trouble with their user name and password, send me an email. I dont think there should be any problems, but there is always a chance something may have gone wrong.

Though I can appreciate the value of personally I consider to be of a much higher grade.

I think it is fine to point out the genuine faults or misconduct of a spiritual authority, but probably what bothers some here is how there has been general insulting and name calling about different gurus in the past. You guru is like this... my guru is better because he has a bigger belly than yours...

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Nothing

I just wanted to get your opinions on this?

Personally I am very fond of sadhu-sanga. I try to take every oportunity to associates with sadhus, regardless of their personal path, sadhana, etc. In the Vedic culture it was one's duty to serve the sadhus and learn from them the sat-bhava. There are many things preliminary to bhakti that we should learn from those following the sadhu marga. I remember one Sadhu from Puri. He was very tall and well-built (maybe 6 feet plus). Probably around 45 to 50 years old. He wore only a single muddy orange clothe around his waste that went down past his his knees. He was a very big man (strong, not fat), and his entire body was covered by hair. Since he didn't wear a shirt, this was very visible on his open back. This seems to be a common lakshana among many sadhus. We first saw him at the Jagannatha temple in Puri engaging in spiritual discussions with passers-by. In the Puri temple it is the habbit that there will be many small spontaneous "discourses" going on inside the temple, either by local pandits or sadhus. Someone will be speaking, and a dozen or so people will sit for a few minutes and listen, before going on their way. We met this sadhu in one such gathering. Seeing that this person was a genuine sadhu, unlike most of the bogus sadhus you find in "holy places", we requested this sadhu to come to our house so that we could offer some service to him in the form of preparing his food, etc. Being a genuine sadhu, he accepted our invitation, as it was an opportunity for him to preach the message of the scriptures, but only on the condition that we would perform nama-kirtana for him. Since our main sadhana is nama-kirtana, we were more than happy to oblige. The next day he arrived at our house. He entered our puja hall and we began having bhajan and kirtan (just five of us including him). He was very enthusiastic in his chanting of Hare Krishna, Hare krishna. After the chanting he told us about himself. Previously he had been a wealthy business man. He owned a trucking company, with a fleet of transport trucks. In India thats a pretty reasonable amount of wealth. About seventeen years ago (but this was four years ago when he told this) he had left everything and came to Rishikesh to become a sadhu. In Rishikesh he would try to associate with as many sadhus as possible, and he would eagerly listen to whatever instructions they would give him. He had not studied the scriptures, nor was he learned in the general sense of the word. His sadhana was to study the sadhus, not the books. In our entire conversation with him he never quoted a scripture, but his every word was from scripture. By hearing the sadhus and repeating their words, his speach spontaneously become shastra. After staying in Rishikesha for several years he began travelling throughout India, as sadhus do, going from one holy place to the next. Just prior to coming to Puri he had been in Vrindavana. He told us how in one village outside of Vrindavana he had arranged for there to be 24 hour nama-kirtana going on continuously, and that it had been unbroken for 3 years (since he started it). He had each villager commit to hosting the kirtana in their house one day a month, in this way, every day the kirtana would move from house to house. The participants would change, but the kirtana would continue without stop. This is the true work of the sadhus, to bring all of us in contact with the Lord. Once a year, for the last three years, this Sadhu would visit Vrindavana to make sure the kirtana was continuing undisturbed. He would stay for a month and inspire them in their sadhana before continuing on his wanderings. When we met him, he had just travelled from Vrindavana to Puri, and had been staying in Puri for the last three or four months. We asked him where he will go from here, he said he did not know, but that he would be happy to just be like us and do nama-kirtana whole day. He spoke to us for around an hour, telling us the instructions he had received from various sadhus. I don't recall the conversation in detail (it was four years ago), but one thing stays in my mind. We were all wearing traditional Gaudiya tilak on our foreheads, made from the gopichandana mud. When he saw this he was very happy, and said it is very good that we are wearing the feet of Vishnu on our head. Then he said, "I may not appear to be wearing tilak, but actually I am wearing the real tilak of the sadhu." He asked me, "Do you know what is the real tilak?" I didn't know, so he told me. "Real tilak is when you lie flat on the ground offering ashtanga-dandavat-pranams. That mud that sticks to your forehead when you get up is your tilak. This is the tilak of the sadhus. We cannot keep fancy mirrors and such things for applying tilak to our head. We are wandering sadhus, we must be free from worldly possessions. We can only wear the natural tilak that comes from offering respects to everyone." That was Sri Chaitanyas instruction, to become as humble as a straw in the street, to offer all respects to others, while not expecting any respect for oneself. I never asked this sadhu what was his lineage, or what was his philosophy. It really didn't matter. He was a sadhu, and a sadhu must be respected. After taking his meal, he walked off, and I never saw him again. That was four years ago. I wonder where he is today? Maybe in Rishikesh, maybe Haridwar, maybe Vrindavana. Who knows? But I am sure that he is doing the same thing there that he did with us in Puri. The true sadhu's life is for preaching and sadhana. Where ever they go they speak the instructions of the scriptures, and by so doing, they elevate the souls of common men like us.

The following is a letter written by Bhaktivinoda Thakur to Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati: Saraswati! People of this world who are proud of their own aristocratic birth attack the pure vaisnava… Thus they commit offences. The solution to the problem is to establish the order of daiva-varnasrama-dharma - something you started doing; you should know that to be the real service to the Vaisnava. Because pure devotional conclusions are not being preached, all kinds of superstition and bad concepts are being called devotion by such pseudo sampradayas as sahajiya and ativadi. Please always crush these ant-devotional concepts by preaching pure devotional conclusion and by setting an example… Please try very hard to make sure that the service to sri mayapur will become a permanent thing. The real service to Sri Mayapur can be done by acquiring printing presses, distributing devotional books, and sankirtana - preaching. Please do not neglect to serve Sri Mayapur or to preach for the sake of your own reclusive bhajana. When I am not present any more, please take care to serve Sri Mayapur dhama which is so dear to you. This is my special instruction to you. I had a special desire to preach the significance of such books as Srimad-Bhagavatyam, Sat-Sandarbha, and Vedanta Darshana. You have to accept that responsibility. Sri Mayapur will prosper if you will establish an educational institution there. Never make any effort to collect knowledge or money for your own enjoyment. Only to serve Lord will you collect these things. signed Kedarnatha Datta Bhaktivinoda

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You accuse other Gaudiya Vaishnavas outside your missionary camp as this or that, but in reality have never witnessed them in their daily lives. You are just a plain RELIGIOUS BIGOT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Isn't that exactly what you did by posting the allegations against Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati? Then when you get a similar response you complain. I don't think we need to criticize anyone here (on either side). If there is a disagreement, then disagree with the philosophy politely. Have a discussion, not a war.

Sri Chaitanya has said: kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, shudra kene naya yei krishna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya "Whether one is a brahmana, a sannyasi or a shudra - regardless of what he is - he can become a guru if he knows the science of Krishna." (Chaitanya-charitamrita, Madhya-lila 8.128)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> 1 ) Sri Kisori Mohana Gosvami and Sri Kisori Das Babaji witnessed that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, when asked by Siddha Sri Ramakrsna das Pandit Baba in the early 1930s, declared that he was initiated in a dream. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The entire argument is based on rumors that cannot be substantiated. Well, I personally know that Langa Baba of Rishikesh heard that Kaupin Baba had been told by Sri Ramakrishna Das Pandit Baba that the moon is made of blue cheese. Go figure? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sannyasa cannot be taken from a photo, without physical permission of the person on the photograph, but from a living sannyasi. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This presumes that it is not possible, while being situated in the stage of samadhi, to have a direct relationship with eternaly liberated souls. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> How can you wear saffron cloth while your would-be sannyasa guru wore white? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Like I said... their socks don't match, thats' proof they're wrong. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> And saffron dhotis do not exist at all, only saffron bahirvasas (outer cloth) for Vedic eka-dandi (mayavadi) sannyasis and white dhotis for householders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There are plenty of Vaishnava sannyasis who have taken ekadanda sannyasa. To assume that ekadanda sannyasa indicates that one is a mayavadi is a foolish conception and shows a lack of overall knowledge of the Vedic traditions. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Grhasthas should not wear a kaupina (loincloth). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The kaupinam is meant to be worn by all people, begining from childhood. The iron kaupinam is not allowed to be worn by householders. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Shaving the head is also only for sannyasis and not for others. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Every Vedic tradition has prescriptions for shaving the heads of the brahmacharis and brahmanas. The position of the shikha varies according to the lineage. In smarta lines the front of the head is shaved, and the remaining hair is tied into a large shikha. In Vaishnava lines the size and position of the shikha varies according to sampradaya and shaka. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> suklavaso bhaven nityah "One should always wear white clothe." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ...or one's cloth should not be dirty. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> ...the ocean of samsara, which is hard to cross by yatis (mayavadi sannyasis)... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yati does not mean "mayavadi sannyasi". This conception that everything else is "mayavadi" is very childish and displays a clear lack of understanding the various traditions. Sripada Ramanujacharya is also known as yati-raja, as are a number of Vaishnava saints. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> 6) Where did Bhaktisiddhanta get his brahmana-thread from? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> From that small shop in Navadvipa just next to Gauranga Brass Works on the road connecting to the ghata. At least thats where I got mine. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> This means that 2nd initiation is not the same as brahmana-initiation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is no such thing as a "second initiation" in vedic culture. There are three classifications of initiation, none go by the name "second initiation". <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> "Even the vultures will not eat the dead corpse of the ungrateful one who abandons the amnayagatam guru." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, when the family traditions are preserved, the brahmanas and family gurus are to be respected. But in Kali yuga, when, according to the scriptures, the demons are born in brahmana families, and the caste guru's only business is sense gratification, it is advisable to reject such association in favour of a liberated soul. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> What is the tilaka svarupa of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and his followers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In every vaishnava line there are variations of the tilak based on one's personal mood of surrender. Even within a single sampradaya there are many branches, each with a different tilak representing their process of sharanagati. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> In Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.85) it is quoted: sampradayika mudradi bhusitam tam krtañjalim, "At the time of initiation the disciple receives the sectarian signs from the guru". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Traditional Vaishnava schools consider mudra to refer to shankha (conch), chakra (discus), gada (club) and padma (lotus), and these symbols should be marked on your body. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Why did Bhaktisiddhanta not wear his guru's tilaka if he was really his disciple? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And why didn't saints like Shyamananda wear the tilak of their initiating gurus? This argument is not sound. Actually none of these arguments have any substance. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> a) In ISKCON/Gaudiya Matha we see everyone ultimately receiving brahmana-initiation. But which varnasrama-society has only brahmanas? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This question is like asking why do all universities create graduates when in society the majority of people are not graduates. ISKCON and Gaudiya matha are spiritual organizations within the larger society of the world. It is natural for a spiritual organization to create spiritually focussed brahmanas. There are plenty of materialistic people in society, and we shouldn't expect spiritual institutions to have to create them as well. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> ...and, what to speak of knowing Sanskrit, the men don't even know Hindi or Bengali... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nor Russian, nor chinese, nor sign language... I fail to see the spiritual significance of knowing Hindi, which has more connection to Muslim invaders than to the sages of ancient India. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> ...or even what the weather is like in India. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Here it is quite hot now. But the monsoon season will be starting soon. Everyone is looking forward to that. The guru's mercy is also like a monsoon cloud that extinguishes the forest fire of repeated birth and death. I wish more people would be looking forward to that monsoon. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Envy is the cause of the mentality: "Nowadays brahmanas are full of faults, so now we will launch our own varnasrama-system." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Spiritually speaking, the brahmanas are factually full of faults nowadays. In Orissa the brahmanas eat fish and drink liquor while continuing to pose as priests and family gurus. In South India, the brahmanas are not so bad, but they all virtually eat onion and garlic, drink tea and cofee, and work mostly as accountants and the such. Nowadays the younger generation has started eating eggs as well, on the grounds that they are "vegetarian". In some traditional holy places such as Udupi and Sri Rangam you can still find a few brahmanas who follow proper principles. In Udupi there is even a restaraunt(hotel) next to the Krishna Temple that cooks without onion and garlic and remains closed on Ekadashis. Such things are very rare though. Regardless, the scriptures tell us that everyone is born a shudra, and by samskara they are elevated to the position of a brahmana. And elsewhere it is stated that in the age of Kali everyone is born a shudra. Throughout the modern history of India, the brahmanas have greatly exploited the lower castes, to the point that they are now suffering the consequences of their actions. Only a fool would think the glorification in the scriptures of brahmanas referred to the modern birth-based caste. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> The Bhagavata (7.11.13) declares that a brahmana must first be born in a family that has always, throughout the generations, followed all the samskaras for brahmanas. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, this verse does not say that. Samskaras are not only for brahmanas. There are samskaras for all varnas. Regardless, there are countless examples of those belonging to other varnas acquiring the status of a brahmana. For example, Kaushika (Vishvamitra) was a Kshatriya, but by tapasya he became a brahma-rishi. Valmiki was a shudra, but by chanting the name of Rama he became a brahmana (and eventually the Vyasa for the 24th Chatur-yuga). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> The Vedas teach that a sannyasi renounces his brahmana-thread when he takes sannyasa (sutra-sikha-tyaga, C.C.). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is again incorrect. The practice of removing the hair and brahmana thread is a custom in the line of ekadanda sannyasa. This is not the case in other lines, such as the Sri Vaishnava line, wherein the tridanda sannyasa is accepted. And last time I checked the Chaitanya Charitamrita was not part of the Vedas. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Initiation into krsna-mantra is a separate initiation which is only given to active Vaisnava brahmanas. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This entire article is filled with a misconception as to what is vaidika diksha and what is pancharatrika diksha. A thorough study of these two lines would be useful, otherwise one's attempt to appear scholarly makes one look foolish. The Vaishnavas who accept vaidika diksha follow the vaikhanasa agamas. Those that accept pancharatrika diksha follow the pancharatra agamas. Their systems and procedures are completely different. To fail to acknowledge this difference leads one to make many mistakes. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Introducing varnasrama dharma, which is an institution of karma-yoga, is a namaparadha. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Varnashrama dharma is not an institution of karma-yoga. This is like saying all knives are murder weapons. Sripada Ramanuja considers varnashrama dharma to be much more than an institution of karma-yoga. Without having a proper conception of traditional vaishnava acharyas, one will never be able to understand the essence of vaishnava siddhanta. To think that vaishnavism means to just say "hare rama, hare rama" is the conception of a neophyte. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> 11) Who is a sannyasi? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> One who performs sat-nyasa is a sannyasi. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A Vaisnava tyagi is not called sannyasi.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is false. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In India a mayavadi is called sannyasi. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is also false. The problem with many gaudiya-wanna-bes is that they don't have a clue as to what is anything. They just stamp everything as mayavada, a word which for most part, they cannot define. Then they go ahead and say "in India a mayavadi is called a sannyasi..." Where do you come up with this stuff? Now I'm beginning to wonder if _this author_ knows what the weather is like in India? <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In his Durgama-sangamani commentary on the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu (1.2.113) Sri Jiva Gosvami sees a difference between a sannyasi and a Vaisnava-nivrtta (tyagi): sisyan naivanubadhniyad ityadiko yadyapi sannyasa-dharmas tathapi nivrttanam api bhaktanam upayujyata iti bhavah - "Just as it is wrong for a sannyasi to take too many disciples, so it counts also for renounced bhaktas." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is a difference between a sannyasi, a babaji, and an avadhuta. A sannyasi is still following the varnashrama dharma. This topic is discussed in the fourth adhyaya of the Vedanta sutra. There are Vaishnavas who belong to each of these categories. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> There has never been a prohibition by the Gosvamis or the scriptures against calling householder-acaryas 'Gosvami'. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gosvami is a titled applicable to anyone who has complete control of his senses, not to those engaging in illicit sex and other material activities. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> sadhu-sastra guru vakya, hrdaye koriya aikya - "The words of the guru must be compatible with the words of sadhu and sastra..." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, that is not what this verse says. The correct translation is "Make the teachings of the guru, the sadhus, and the shastra one with your heart." <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Babajis are not sahajiyas, for sahajiyas are Saktas or Mayavadis who have tantric sex with other men's wives... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again, this word 'mayavadi' pops up. The definition of sahajiya has no connection with either shaktas or mayavadis (advaitis). Over all, this entire article is like a kindergarten presentation of the universe. Without any knowledge of vaishnavism beyond that which is practiced in Bengal, and with no knowledge of the greater vedic tradition, the author repeatedly opens his mouth only to reveal what he does not know.

You guys are bogus cause... your socks don't match! These arguments are for kids. It is common knowledge that the red cloth referred to is that worn by shaktas. Vaishnavas from many lines have worn saffron cloth for thousands of years.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I might as well claim that I received a dream-initiation from Sri Rupa Gosvami. Who can confirm or deny it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Or I might as well claim I flew up to the himalayas as Vayu and received initiation from Vyasa. The double standard is pathetic. There is no way to confirm whether or not Madhva actually received initiation from Vyasa. It was his own word. And certainly none of us were there to see it. The point is one should be uniform in one's judgement. If you want to make a particular standard for judging the authenticity of someone's initiation, then apply it all the way back in the line in a uniform manner. But you can't because then the entire line fails the subjective test, which itself is useless anyway. Better to just go to Vrindavan, renounce the world for ever to only chant Krishna's name, receive babaji initiation from someone you don't know... and then after a few months return to good ol' USA to live your same old life style. Why make a joke of religion?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sannyass IN Kali-Yug is forbidden by Sri Chaitanya Himself. Is there an authority in His Sampradaya more important than Him?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ...and yet Sri Chaitanya Himself took sannyasa. The sannyasa that is forbidden in the scripture is karma-sannyasa (complete renunciation of activity by going to the forest alone).

I think you may be including two '|' characters next to each other at the end of the sanskrit quotes. That cuts off the article. Remove them before pasting.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...all the accumulated karmas of the past as well as prarabdha karmas of the future are destroyed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If the prarabda karmas are destroyed, the body should cease to exist. In the Vedanta-sutra it is clearly said that the muktatma retains the prarabda karmas in order to bless the conditioned souls with his presence. If the liberated soul immediately vanished, the conditioned souls would never have a chance for sat-sanga.