Jahnava Nitai Das

Here I would disagree. There are plenty of ulterior motives possible. The most obvious motive is fame, followers, respect, adoration, etc. Just see someone like Sai Baba, who can also perform miracles. Despite his miracles, he is a homosexual who abuses children. What is the use of measuring one's spiritual position by material miracles? Everyone thought Sai Baba taught bhakti. Millions of followers were fooled. When you try to find a saint by a material measurement (in this case mundane miracles) you will fail. In India everyone is attributed miracles after they die. There are so many motivating factors involved. To increase the prominence of the matha, to create an avatara, to bring tourists, etc. Maybe the purpose is to fool young children so that they can be molested by a miracle performing "saint". No. The real miracle is instilling pure bhakti in the hearts of millions of souls.

SB 3.5.41 mArganti yat te mukha-padma-nIDaiz chanda-suparNair RSayo vivikte yasyAgha-marSoda-sarid-varAyAH padaM padaM tIrtha-padaM prapannAH TRANSLATION The lotus feet of the Lord are by themselves the shelter of all places of pilgrimage. The great clear-minded sages, carried by the wings of the Vedas, always search after the nest of Your lotuslike face. Some of them surrender to Your lotus feet at every step by taking shelter of the best of rivers [the Ganges], which can deliver one from all sinful reactions.

I saw this picture on our drive today, so I thought I would post it as it is quite unique and very interesting. This is a picture of Jagannatha, Baladeva and Subhadra from Sri Rangam. These particular deities are unique in that they have arms, legs and faces like regular deities (not like the Jagannatha found in Puri). Also this form of the Lord is practically unknown in South India. These particular deities were found in a corner of the Sri Rangam some time ago. The Sri Rangam temple is quite huge, and there are many, many storage rooms, making it easy for something to be unseen for hundreds of years. It is believed that these particualr deities were introduced when Sri Chaitanya visited Sri Rangam for four months of the rainy season. After being rediscovered, their worship has been properly established within the greater Sri Rangam compound by a donor, I believe the Birlas. A small statue of Sri Chaitanya has also been installed in this temple.

We received a nice suggestion through email for the name of the forums, and we decided to go with it. The new name is 'Audarya Fellowship', and hopefully this will reflect the type of content we will get. Audarya means magnanimity or generosity; to give liberally. A fellowship is basically a union of friends or equals sharing similar interests. A nice definition for fellowship in the dictionary runs like this: "a. The condition of being together or of sharing similar interests or experiences, as do members of a profession, religion, or nationality; companionship; b. The companionship of individuals in a congenial atmosphere and on equal terms." We hope that these forums can create a congenial atmosphere for everyone to discuss philosophy and spirituality on equal terms. We can have vigorous debates, and strong discussions, but they should always be high class. We hope that the discussions will stay focussed on the philosophy, and not degrade into personal insults - for then the forums will not foster a congenial atmosphere for discussion. While writing we should always keep in mind our purpose - to become Audarya. We should not write for the sake of arguing, defeating others, or showing ourselves to be scholars. In our heart we should strive to attain a platform of selflessness. That is the purpose of this fellowship, so that we can help each other transcend the mundane and selfish conceptions of this world, and be fixed in pure generosity - acting for the welfare of the world. Though the discussions here may be broad and not limited to a particular school of thought, I cannot say this conceived design is not influenced by Sri Chaitanya, for He was the exemplification of magnanimity - as He gave openly and freely without discrimination - and it was His instruction that we should rise to that platform. All too often internet forums are used not for truly engaging in discussion, but rather to attack others and to quarrel. We are now deep within the age of Kali, and at this point there is no necessity to propagate hatred, for it will spread naturally on its own. The need is to create spiritual generosity to counter the influence of Kali. Again, this was Sri Chaitanya's mission, and it is definitely the need of the present. The spiritual vacuum in society today is so vast and all-encompasing. I am sure everyone would agree that in such a situation, discussion or propagation of any spiritual teaching would be beneficial for society. With that in mind, we hope these forums, the Audarya Fellowship, would be broad minded and open to all kinds of spiritual thought and discussion. Again, vigorous debate is welcome and encouraged, but we hope everyone will try their best not to offend others by criticizing individuals (whether gurus, saints, or practitioners). Please focus the debates on the philosophy, and avoid hurting the sentiments of the faithful followers. The Gita says the minds of the faithful should not be shaken before establishing them in a higher truth, for as a result they will simply give up their present practice and be left with nothing.

In case anyone is interested: You can now use the double bar '||' without the message getting cut off.

testing | testing || testing |||

From a traditional perspective, the Hare Krishna mahamantra isn't a mantra in the general sense. A mantra requires three features, a seed letter, a deity, and an offering. The mahamantra is only compossed of the names of God, and thus in a general sense it is referred to as a nama-mantra. According to mantra-shastra, nama-mantras have no particular rules or regulations that must be observed when chanting. The rules in mantra-shastra that say it is better to chant a mantra in one's mind then externally refer to actual mantras by definition, not to the names of the Lord. Such mantras are to be kept secret and only passed on to a qualified disciple. As such the mantras must be protected by chanting it silently or within. There are other reasons why such mantras should be chanted within, but we won't get into that topic now. In all the Puranas it is advised that the names of the Lord be chanted and sung. To think that the mahamantra, which is just the combinations of Lord Krishna's names, should not be recited aloud is a concoction. Where are the references in the Puranas that state one should not recite the Lord's name? On the contrary it is recommend everywhere that the Lord's names should be chanted loudly. Sri Chaitanya himself has said: namanam akari bahudha nija-sarva-shaktis tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah "Within Your holy names you have invested all of your shakti. There are no regulations nor considerations of time for chanting them." Yama (rules) and niyama (regulations) do not apply to the chanting of the Lords names. This is Sri Chaitanya's direct statement. Again, from a traditional perspective, the Hare Krishna mahamantra is sung in kirtan parties throughout india by many sampradayas, including the Madhva sampradaya, Sri sampradaya, and even the bhajanai sampradayas of Tamil Nadu. There is no traditional reason as to why this mantra should not be sung in kirtana, on the contrary it has been recommended by many saints that it should be sung aloud in groups. Thats why I said, "If someone were to tell me not to chant Hare Krishna out loud in kirtan (and only chant it as japa), then I would have to disagree with them personally." Personally, I value tradition and shastra more than local bengali village customs.

S a n g a Saturday, May 12, Disappearance of Srila Raya Ramananda "You have found a sat guru in Srila Prabhupada. Consider yourself very fortunate. Find a siksa guru who actually represents your diksa guru and encourages you to chant the mantras he gave you." Q&A discussion with Swami B.V. Tripurari. Q. What is the spiritual etiquette for hearing the gayatri mantra (and in some cases new mantras) a second time from a siksa guru? Are these mantras meant for the siksa guru or do they also reach Srila Prabhupada? A. If we accept a siksa guru in the full sense of the term, we will consider him to be a manifestation of Krsna who is not different in substance from our diksa guru. His function is to instruct us and thereby water the seed of bhakti planted in our heart by our diska guru. If we have given up our practice for a long time, there is no harm if we hear the mantra from him again. But we shouldn't do this unless we feel that he is fully representing our particular spiritual interest. If we consider ourselves a member of the particular group in which our Gurudeva is serving in Krsna lila, we will want to have a siksa guru who understands this and helps us to enter that group. However, it is also possible that the siksa guru may be more spiritually advanced than the diksa guru, and in this case his ideal may take precedence in out heart. Another possibility is that the two gurus are of the same stature and one or the other becomes our main guru. This is not something to legislate. It is a matter of the heart. You are an initiated disciple of Srila Prpabhupda, as am I. We follow in the line of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. Prabhupada gave his disciples the mantras he heard from Srila Saraswati Thakura. The mantras Prabhupada gave to his disciples are Brahma gayatri, guru mantra and gayatri, gaura mantra and gayatri, krsna mantra and gayatri. Combined with the the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha mantra, these are more than sufficient. You should never give up chanting these mantras in exchange for new ones that are billed as being higher or better in some way. Find a siksa guru who actually represents your diksa guru and encourages you to chant the mantras he gave you. You have found a sat guru in Srila Prabhupada. Consider yourself very fortunate. This was also the policy of Sridhara Maharaja, who explained the significance of our diksa mantras to me and repeatedly encouraged me along these lines. Q. Today is the disappearance of Srila Raya Ramananda. Some say he might have been a sahajiya Vaisnava who performed tantric sadhana. What do you make of this? A. This line of reasoning is not very sensible. Given the difference between the Sahajiya/tantric doctrine and that of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, it is difficult to imagine that one of the most prominent followers of Sri Caitanya could differ so considerably on fundamental religious doctrine. The Sahajiya doctrine holds that Radha and Krsna are the macrocosmic representation of the microcosmic union of man and woman and through sexual encounter imitates the 'myth' of Radha-Krsna (man thinking himself to be Krsna and his unwedded partner to be Radha). Through this, one can realize himself to be the spiritual essence arising out of the combination of the male and female principles. Gaudiya Vaisnavism on the other hand does not admit to this macrocosmic/microcosmic concept, nor that it culminates in an impersonal spiritual essence in which man and woman are thought to have become one through sexual union. Ramananda Raya was an intellectual giant, and there is no justification for assuming that he was not morally upright. Indeed, he intimately associated with Sri Caitanya himself, who was morally strict to the extreme. Ramananda's sadhana, which involved associating intimately with two female temple dancers, does at a glance seem to correspond with left-handed tantric practices common to Sahajiyas. However, under scrutiny it becomes clear that his practices were in fact diametrically opposed to those of the Sahajiyas. His purpose for associating intimately with these women so was to teach them how to perform his drama, 'Jagannatha-vallabha-nataka,' a drama for the pleasure of Jagannatha. The 'dasis' learned from Ramananda how to express the various sancari-bhavas, anubhavas, etc. through the movements of their eyes and bodily gestures which are essential elements of bhakti-rasa. Caitanya Caritamrta explains that he taught them these things in the mood of a manjari assisting elder gopis (sakhis) in the art of loving Krsna. At no time did his practice involve thinking of himself as Krsna or the women as Radha, or having sexual union with them, or aspiring to an impersonal form of liberation - all of which are integral to sahajiya-sadhana. By contrast, his sadhana, at least conceptually, is overtly raganuga-bhakti, the very sadhana that Sri Caitanya came to distribute. The somewhat unconventional form that Ramananda's sadhana took, serves to illustrate his spiritual advancement in which his bhava manifested in his external practices and guided them. This is no doubt extraordinary and not to be imitated, but it is not an example of left-handed sahajiya tantric practice. After all, Ramananda Raya was the first person to understand Sri Caitanya to be Radha and Krsna combined. He had deep, penetrating spiritual vision and was an eternal associate of Mahaprabhu. Sri Caitanya singled him out and praised him for his spiritual penetration that involved this practice, while advising others not to imitate him. Kavikarnapura has described Ramananda through the mouth of Sarvabhauma in his drama 'Caitanya-candrodaya-nataka' as a sahajya-vaisnava. However, when Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami relates this same historical instance in his Caitanya Caritamrta, he has Sarvabhauma call Ramananda a rasika-bhakta. Generically and in terms of the consistent use of the term throughout the Goswami literature, sahajiya means spontaneous, accomplished, natural, innate. Thus in the Goswami granthas, sahajiya-vaisnava and rasika-bhakta are synonymous. Furthermore, during the time of Mahaprabhu the Sahajiya cult was not referred to by that name. That was a later development. Q. What was Prabhupada's opinion of homosexuality? A. Prabhupada felt that homosexuality was a material reflection of sakhya rasa. When one of his disciples told him he was homosexual, Prabhupada replied , "No, you just need a friend (Krsna)." The sexual urge must be replaced with love for Krsna. Q. How important is it whether sadhakas wear leather shoes or not? A. Vallabha makes much of this in his Bhagavata tika regarding Krsna's refusal to wear shoes while cow herding. Try to avoid it. However, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura wore patten leather shoes. Q. In a previous Sanga you said that 'Hara' refers to Lord Siva. But isn't it also true that 'Hara' refers to Srimati Radharani which appears as 'Hare' in the maha mantra? A. The name Hare in the Hare Krsna mantra is the vocative form of Hari. Thus it is an address to Lord Hari. The maha mantra begins with this address, "O Hari (Hare)!" In this sense Hare is one of three names of God in the maha mantra - Hare, Krsna, and Rama. The name Hari means, 'He who takes away.' When Srimate Radharani chants the Hare Krsna maha mantra, she considers Hare to be a name of Krsna (Hari) . Some cowherds also understand Hare in this way. However, Hare can also be considered a name for Radha when taken as the vocative form of Hara. Hara is she who steals away Hari. Addressing Radha as Hare says more about her greatness than to address her directly as Radha. In the context of the maha mantra it is also a veiled way of singing her name, and this is more pleasing to the tasteful devotees. This is the special interpretation found in our sampradaya. Q. I am a Hindu and we believe in so many gods. Christians say there is only one God and he is Christ, the real avatar. His life seems to be so humble, sacrificing, and full of wisdom and good examples. How should I think about this? A. Christian theologian John Moffit in his book 'Journey to Gorakhpur: An Encounter with Christ Beyond Christianity,' said the following about Sri Caitanya, 'If I were asked to choose one man in Indian religious history who best represents the pure spirit of devotional self-giving, I would choose the Vaishnavite saint Caitnaya, whose full name in religion was Krsna Caitanya, or 'Krsna consciousness.' Of all the saints in recorded history, East or West, he seems to me the supreme example of a soul carried away on a tide of ecstatic love of God.' I quoted this passage in my book 'Rasa: Love Relationships in Transcendence.' I think you would enjoy reading it.

Nothing wrong with chanting Hare Krishna. Of course if someone were to tell me not to chant Hare Krishna out loud in kirtan (and only chant it as japa), then I would have to disagree with them personally.

I agree with Shvu. It would be nice to have broad title, something that can encompass all spiritual discussions connected with dharma. I would even suggest something that would be less sectarian then sanatana dharma, something that could even include discussions of buddhism for example. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a particular forum named "Krishna Talk" or something more specific, while the overall title would bemuch broader.

"One who does not desire anything within this world, who has achieved peace by controlling his senses, whose consciousness is equal in all conditions, and whose mind is completely satisfied in Me, finds only happiness wherever he goes." -- Sri Krishna, in Srimad Bhagavatam, 11.14.13

S a n g a Friday, March 9, Gaura Purnima "Caitanya means consciousness. Mahaprabhu is always conscious of Krsna. Caitanya also means soul. Mahaprabhu is the soul of Krsna, Sri Radha, and thus he is conscious of Krsna as only she can be." Hari katha with Swami B.V. Tripurari, Gaura Purnima, 2000, Vrindavan, India. Q. What is the meaning of Sri Krsna Caitanya? A. Sri Krsna means Radha Krsna, who have appeared as Caitanya. He is Krsna Caitanya, or Krsna conscious. This name was given to him by Kesava Bharati Maharaja as Mahaprabhu began his preaching lila. The word 'caitanya' means consciousness. Mahaprabhu is always conscious of Krsna. Caitanya also means soul. Mahaprabhu is the soul of Krsna, Sri Radha, and thus he is conscious of Krsna as only she can be. Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Sri (Radha) and Krsna combined. One time Sri Radhika had a dream. In that dream she saw a golden figure dancing and singing in a setting resembling Vraja dhama. By that singing and dancing she was so attracted and she saw everybody in the universe from the lowest up to Lord Brahma were crying. She awoke from the dream and thought, in the chastity of her love for Krsna, 'How could I be so attracted to that person? Who was that?' She was puzzled. Krsna came on the scene and she asked him and he laughed. She could not understand. But the kastauba mani jewel that Krsna wears over his chest, which represents all jiva souls that he holds near his heart, began to shine brightly. and inside that jewel the hearts of all jivas were rejoicing at the thought of that golden figure that Radha saw in her dream. From this she realized why Krsna is laughing - the joy that they will feel from that figure can only come from the worship of Radha and Krsna. So she said 'Krsna: tat tvam asi - you are that.' and 'aham gopala - I am that, I am you Gopala also in that appearance' ' Q. Why did Krsna make this special appearance? A. We are not short of explanations to shed light on the mystical and covert appearance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Covered it is, but it is our business to uncover it. In the Gitopanisad Krsna says, 'ye yatha mam prapadyante' those who surrender to me, however they may do it, I reciprocate accordingly. The gopis took this verse to the extreme. In effect they took Krsna up on his offer and they surrendered fully, expecting reciprocation. During rasa-lila Krsna witnessed the measure of their love and surrender, and being Rasaraja, the connoisseur of love, he left the rasa dance to see the measure of their love even more. But when he saw the extent of it he realized that he was defeated. He told the gopis, 'I disappeared because I wanted to see the true measure of your love.' For how one reacts after losing something very valuable is much greater than when you had it in the first place. 'I disappeared from the rasa dance to see your love increase. But I have to admit that upon seeing it, I am defeated. I can only surrender. And for your reward you will have to settle for your love, which, in a mystic way, is greater than myself.' So in this way the gopis took this verse of Bhagavad-gita, 'ye yatha mam prapadyante' to its extreme and completely exhausted Krsna's capacity to reciprocate. This is the essence of Caitanya Mahaprabhu; Krsna seeing the measure of the gopis' love, seeing that it is greater than he himself, and as the connoisseur of love, desiring to taste it. Q. I heard tomorrow is a special anniversary. A. Yes, I took sannyasa here 25 years ago at the opening of the Krsna Balaram Mandir. I joined Prabhupada in 1972, so 28 years have passed. I am in my fifty-first year. So many things we have seen come and go. And I'm not the only person coming to this age who has been involved in this. So many of you are here today! So now we must become real devotees. It is time. We should be settled in this, what it is. We are all together. You should know this: nobody is going anywhere. If there is somebody you don't like, you'd better get over it because they are not going away. We are all in this forever. Whatever exists will always exist, and whatever doesn't exist will never come into existence. This is Vedanta, nyaya, and in terms of bhakti it applies as well in the smaller group. We are all in this forever and nobody is going away. So if somebody is giving you a hard time, you'd better find another way to get around it than opposing or avoiding that person. Try to see the good qualities in others, somehow or other. And if they can see yours, then maybe you don't have that much to argue about. This is incumbent upon all of us. It is time. I feel pressed to tell you this. Forgive me because I am the worst of all of you, but this we must do. We should know our family, how we are connected. And brothers argue too. I have a love-hate relationship with many of my godbrothers, but love is still underlying it all. They may do so many nonsense things and they may think I do the same, but underneath it all we have worked together, we have served together for so many years for the same divine cause and each one of us knows what that is about. That is not just limited to my godbrothers and godsisters. It extends to all of us who have been touched by what Krsnadasa Kaviraja is speaking of. Those difficulties that are on the surface can be cleared away very quickly. And they may not need to be cleared also, that is another way of looking at it. 'Variety is the spice of life' we are told. If we just reflect on it, differences between godbrothers, if we look closely, may also come to charm us. Bhakti requires some introspection. To be a decent human being requires introspection. So if we can just have a little human introspection, we can understand the nature of these dealings. Q. What kind of relationship should we aspire for? A. Candidly speaking our heart, hiding nothing, this should be our relationship with one another. This is sat sanga, truthful sanga. We should come together in the evening, do kirtan, sit, and go around the room and speak about what we did that day, if we deviated in any way from Krsna's service, speak about it, and the next person and the next person. Every night like this. This is sadhu sanga, this is loving relationship, sharing one's heart. Such a great gift we got from Srila Prabhupada, the universality of Mahaprabhu's mission. We are all Vaisnavas - not American Vaisnavas, or Indian Vaisnavas. We are all part of Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, we have all come in its grand wake. By nama sankirtana we will know the truth of Krsna bhakti. It's nature is self-luminous. It will come to us. Chant Krsna nama nicely, practice vaidhi-bhakti sincerely and aspire, 'I want to attain Vraja bhakti.' When I was a young and inexperienced devotee living in New Dwaraka, someone mistakenly told me 'You know most devotees go to Vaikuntha.' At the time I didn't how to respond - but I cried. I thought, 'Vaikuntha! Krsna is not in Vaikuntha! He who plays the flute, standing on the altar - I'm attached to him. And you're telling me I'm going to Vaikuntha?' We should have this kind of feeling: 'I want only Vraja lila.' Q. How do we do that? A. Ruci is the basis of spiritual identity. When you have ruci, you know what to do. You follow the ruci, the taste. Follow the taste - this is the ultimate pramana, or evidence. We hear about sastra pramana, but Caitanya Caritamrta teaches that the real pramana is experience. And we know that as a fact. We can hear sastra all day and night, but the only reason we are here is that we got a little experience somewhere along the line and we know 'it is not like anything else. I want this!' I may know I am not qualified to go there now, but I will try to qualify myself with all these practices and I will chant my mantram and think as Jiva Goswami said, 'I want to go there, the place this mantra is talking about.' And if we are sincere in our practice, that mantra will rise in our heart like the sun and reveal Bhagavat-sambandha, our relationship with the Lord. And then there will be no more questions like, 'How will I know? How can I tell?' If we ask this question then it has not come yet. And then as this love awakens the feeling comes that you want to share it. This is the nature of love, to share. And as you start to share, you realize, 'Oh I can't, not everyone shares the same feeling and they may think I am crazy, saying 'Who are you to say that, that you are feeling like this?' So that ideal, that awakening in the heart, is a very high thing of course. But it will come. It will come to the simple and sincere devotee. Try to be a good devotee, not a great devotee and it will come. Serve the Vaisnavas and when it comes, you will know it. Q. And study scripture? A. Yes, study the scripture. But for what? For doing bhajan, not for collecting information to prove a point, to beat somebody over the head with it. Such argumentation is not helpful at all for bhakti. It is pratikula, unfavorable. So study sastra for bhajan. Let it speak to us of what we need to do now, today, to make progress in Krsna's service. This is what I mean by an open heart. Study sastra in that way, and practice. Q. And preaching? A. What comes to you, if you feel it is worth sharing, then share it. If someone asks you a question, you answer honestly what you have understood. And if people are attracted to that, then this is preaching. You don't have to study for preaching, planning what to say, how to defeat them, thinking, 'they're all demons, they have all rejected the right way, they are this or that,' whatever ism or schism we are part of. Find a verse that changes your heart. When your heart changes, preaching will overflow, automatically. That kind of preaching will be compelling and it will draw people in and it will draw down the mercy of Caitanya Mahaprabhu as well.

The eternally liberated souls are not subject to the laws of nature, as are the conditioned souls. Their entire existence within matter is nothing but an illusion, put on to fool the materialistic minds of non-believers. It is impossible to subject the liberated saints to material reactions through poisoning, etc. Their very existence is not connected to prarabda karma - for they have descended here for our benefit. The form they manifest to us is not a product of karma, and thus the interactions that occur between their form and the material energy are nothing except their own divine will.

Are those little green guys doing "haribol"? Perhaps they are filled with krishna-prema and dancing in bliss?

[Answer by Hridayananda das Goswami] The soul cannot be moved from the spiritual space which it eternally occupies. The soul is in the material world, but is never moved from its eternal spiritual position.

[ From the weekly newsletter published by www.iskcondc.org ] When Hiranyakasipu, the demoniac father of Prahlada, had decided to personally kill him, he strongly chastised him with many insulting words. However, the acaryas have revealed that at the time, by the mercy of Goddess Saraswati, he actually glorified his son. Hiranyakasipu calls him 'durvinita' or impudent. But the Sanskrit term can also be broken into, 'duh' (miseries as in the material world), 'vi' (specifically) and 'nita' (bought in). Hiranyakasipu also calls him 'mandatman' meaning 'stupid fool '. However 'manda-atman' also means 'those who are spiritual slow.' Unknowingly Hiranyakasipu revealed the real reason for the advent of Prahlada - to relieve the miseries of the spiritually weak entities in the material world by giving them Krishna consciousness. The life and instructions of Prahlada, reveal the inner most aspects of pure devotional service and how it is conducted. Devotional service is completely independent ******************************************** Prahlada took birth in a family of demons. His father was a greatly atheistic person who abhorred the name of Lord Vishnu. Even at the young age of five, Prahlada became fully absorbed in meditating on the Lord. He showed that bhakti or devotional service is independent of any material considerations like family lineage, caste, race, birth, age or any material circumstances. While there may be factors that are conducive to devotional service, they are by no means essential, since bhakti is supremely independent. Mercy of a devotee ****************** When Prahlada instructed his young classmates in the process of devotional service, they wondered where he got this knowledge from. At this time Prahlada reveals that he heard these instructions from the great sage Narada while still in the womb of his mother. Devotion is thus the property of a devotee and can only be given by him. However the mercy of a devotee in itself is not enough. One has to make a conscious effort to receive that mercy by accepting and acting on the instructions. While both Prahlada and his mother had received these instructions from Narada Muni, Prahlada assimilated them into his life, while his mother quickly forgot them once she got back into the association of her atheistic husband. Dealings with materialistic persons *********************************** When speaking with his father or with his teacher, Prahlada would discuss devotional service them in a general way. At one point when his teachers specifically inquired about the source of his knowledge, he tells them of the reasons why one may perceive some one as a friend and another as an enemy. Later when his father made the same inquiry, Prahlada discussed the plight of men too engrossed in materialistic activity. It may seem that Prahlada was avoiding the question, but in reality he was explaining the reasons why they would not be able to grasp the answer even if he gave it. He thus bought forth the qualities fundamental for making spiritual progress, getting beyond the material conception of life. He also showed that one must protect the intimate details of devotional service for people who are envious of the Lord. However when the classmates of Prahlada inquired, he understood that though they were non-devotees, they were innocent and non-envious, and so he readily revealed the details of his experience with Narada Muni. The reactions of Hiranyakasipu towards his son also reveals how worldly men will react to devotees. Initially he is amused, contemptuously dismissing the devotion of his son to some passing 'bad' influence. Then he becomes angry at the obstinacy of his son and finally when he discovers that he is unable to harm Prahlada, the anger turns into deadly fear. Since Hiranyakasipu was an avowed atheist, the fear culminated in his death. But to one not so fixed in materialism, the anger could also give way to respect, emulation and glorification. Qualities of Prahlada ********************* Prahlada is described as being humble, obedient, respectful, gentle and compassionate. Even though he understood that his father was demoniac, he gave him full respect worthy of a father. He followed the instructions of his teachers in studying the various arts of politics and economic, even though he had no interest in these mundane subjects. Even when he disagreed, he did so with great humility and respect. He showed that becoming a devotee naturally enhances all good qualities of a person. His compassion for his father grew in proportion to the atrocities that he perpetrated, so much so that finally all he would ask from Lord Narasimhadeva was mercy for his father. Completely dependant on the Lord's mercy **************************************** Prahlada never specifically asked the Lord for protection, even when he was being tormented by his father in so many ways. He simply continued doing what he always did, meditating on the Lord. He exemplified the attitude of a devotee, naturally expecting the mercy of the Lord, in any way and form, in any situation, whether it is favorable or not. In the final moments of the pastime Lord Narasimhadeva having killed Hiranyakasipu wanted to grant Prahlada a boon. However, Prahlada at this time is confused and hurt, He says that, 'You are naturally my master, and I am naturally Your servant. We have no other relationship.' Prahlada thus revealed the highest form of relationship between a devotee and the Lord. The devotee has no other desire but to render service to the Lord, and accepts what ever the Lord gives, be it good or bad, as His mercy. When Krishna protects. ********************* Hiranyakasipu was the ruler of the entire universe. He was so feared that just by seeing the movements of his eyebrows great demigods would termble. Yet with all his strength, his army, his mystical powers he could not harm Prahlada, who was under the protection of Krishna. On the other hand, Hiranyakasipu himself had made all plans for immortality. By performing severe austerities he had secured boons from Lord Brahma that all but made his death impossible. Yet when the time came, Krishna killed him with great ease. Prahlada thus showed that 'Rakhe Krishna mare ke mare Krishna rakhe ke.' He whom Krishna protects, no one can kill, but if Krsna wants to kill someone, no one can give him protection. Nine processes of devotional service explained by Prahlada ************************************************ SB 7.5.23-24 sri-prahrada uvaca sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam pada-sevanam arcanam vandanam dasyam sakhyam atma-nivedanam iti pumsarpita visnau bhaktis cen nava-laksana kriyeta bhagavaty addha tan manye 'dhitam uttamam TRANSLATION Prahlada Maharaja said: Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Visnu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with the body, mind and words) -- these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Krsna through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge.

agre dIrghataro 'yam arjuna-tarus tasyAgrato vartmanI sA ghoSaM samupaiti tat parisare deze kalindAtmajA | tasyAs tIra-tamAla-kAnana-tale cakraM gavAM cArayan gopaH krIDati darzayiSyati sakhe panthANam avyAhatam || 'Just up ahead there is a tall Arjuna tree; further ahead of that there is a path. It goes up to a village of cowherds. Near that, on the banks of the Yamuna beneath a grove of Tamala trees, a gopa boy plays while herding cows. He'll show you the path, my friend.' [Translation by Mukunda Datta Das]

But those who come on pilgrimage to a tirtha should not be viewed in terms of caste. They become holy by contact with the presiding deity of the tirtha.

Regarding Madhva's statements, I would be more interested in seeing a quote that states the jivas are of three types, and those natures could never be changed eternally. Such a concept goes against the very foundation of bhakti, which is claimed to be so powerful it can purify even the most sinful and degraded (tamo-guna) jiva.

I remember many years ago sitting nevously in the brahmana feeding area at mantralaya hoping no one will come to kick me out. Being a sadhu, some people had called me to take meals with them in the brahmana section. I was not aware of the different sections until after sitting. What made me nervous was the fact that I did not speak their language, and I was familiar with their strict "orthodoxy". Generally among sadhus externals such as caste are not looked upon, but unfortunately among ritualistic birth based followers, sometimes the externals become more important than anything else. The essence is lost in favour of the husk. In that particular case, no one questioned me. I always feel uncomfortable sitting in gatherings specified for one particular class of people. You can feel the negative energy of false pride permeate the atmosphere.

This usage of eternal punishment is found in the Gita as well as several Upanishads. Even Gaudiya schools use this term of eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), but the usage is that it is beyond measurement of time, not lierally eternal. I have heard the assertion several times that madhva supports the three grades of jivas, but am yet to see the particular reference to judge it. All Vedantic schools accept the atma as nirguna, situated beyond sattva, rajas and tamas. To give material attributes to the spirit soul is self defeating, as the soul is no longer spiritual. As far as brahmanism in the Madhva line, it is very prevelant. The majority of followers believe only madhva brahmanas can attain Vaikuntha. This is odd since in their line come many dasas of Sri Hari who belong to lower castes. But I think it is a general trend thoughout India that brahmins have tried to take a monopoly on God and religion - even to the point of interpolating texts and changing scriptural statements. This is an unfortunate by-product of Kali yuga, where religion is used to profit from the faithful. In the Gita Krishna clearly says even those coming from sinful birth are able to attain Him through bhakti.

This is perhaps a faulty premise, as no one has established they are all the same. According to the Puranas, Brahma is a living entity who is born and dies. Mahesh and Vishnu are a different case, but still the Puranas speak of them as distinct personalities, each with their own separate abode (Kailasha and Vaikuntha). As Krishna says in the gita: yanti deva vratan deva pitrin yanti pitri vratah bhutani yanti bhutejya yanti mad yajino 'pi mam "Those who worship the devas go to the devas. Those who worship the forefathers go to the forefathers. Those who worship the ghosts go to the ghosts. And those who worship Me come to Me." It is not true that all paths lead to the same destination. That is a modern concoction of neo-vedantists.

We have decided to rename the forums to more properly reflect content here, and we need your help coming up with a name. Please post your suggestions. Right now the name is just "IndiaDivine Forums", I dont think anyone will do worse than that, so just give any ideas off the top of your head. The name can be either sanskrit, english, or sanskrit and english. Hopefully the name can reflect the content and mood of the forums. Please post your suggestions as a reply to this.

They say Paramatma can be realized or attained by the process of ashtanga yoga, but since Paramatma is only a witness and sanctioner of karma, there is no possibility to interact with him in service. As a result the realized soul becomes like a fish out of water, suffocating for lack of service to the Lord. From that stage of realization it is possible for the soul to either turn to the conception of Bhagavan or the conception of Brahman and continue his path.

So in other words, you or I may actually be brahmajyoti souls, and in that case our bhakti, diksha, sadhu-sanga, and harinama are just a waste of time? We will end up merging in the impersonal brahmajyoti, only to again fall down to the material world continuously.