Jahnava Nitai Das

What would be your suggestion for the process that should be used to choose the humans to be eaten? Would you eat the old people, or maybe the fat people? Or should it be based on race or religion? Or maybe just a free for all, where anyone eats anyone. I am sure many people would be interested in your conclusions on this matter. Some people fail to realize how atheism can solve many practical problems of the world, such as starvation and over population. If we stop growing vegetables, and instead eat the excess humans (who are also by-products of dead matter - just like carrots), we can put an end to world hunger, and keep the population in check.

S a n g a Tuesday, April 17, Disappearance of Srila Vrindavan das Thakur "Krsna lila is human-like and human society best facilitates this human-like lila of God. We are taught to love Krsna but Krsna is God when God himself falls in love." Q&A discussion with Swami B.V. Tripurari. Q. While chanting I began to feel my body vibrate, and fall forward uncontrollably. It was kind of frightening. What do you think happened? A. Spiritual bliss is not frightening. It is prefaced by sattva guna and the comforting sense of unity with all things. In its budding stage it brings cold, joyful tears to the eyes and a sense of detachment. I am not sure what happened to you. I suggest you pay closer attention to your chanting. Q. I have read where certain saints in India have had a divine vision (darshan) of Sri Krsna yet they did not appear to become Vaisnavas, and even more, each saint is saying different things about the real position of Krsna. How is this? A. Krsna is like a valuable jewel. If you look at a beautiful jewel from different angles you will see its different facets. Similarly, Krsna has many aspects. As persons surrender to him, he reveals himself accordingly. He may even give darshan to a nondevotee for reasons of his own. In Kamsa's wrestling arena he was seen by different persons in different ways. For example, yogis saw him as a manifestation of Paramatma. Q. What is the main cause of violence and aggression? A. The cause is lust, unsatisfied desire. Krsna says, 'kama esa krodha esa, rajo-guna-samudbhavah' (Bg. 3.37). The dissatisfaction derived from the pursuit of material desire transforms into anger. Passion transforms into ignorance, lust into anger. Q. In a recent Sanga you said that the residents of the spiritual world are anxious to join Krsna's nara-lila because it is like a movie 'shot on location.' Why would the Lord's lila in the material world have this special quality? A. Because Krsna lila is human-like. Krsna is God, whom we are taught to love. But Krsna is God when God himself falls in love. Human society best facilitates this human-like lila of God. In the prakata lila here on Earth, Krsna can actually kill demons in youthful sport, whereas in the aprakata lila there are no demons present. Here he can perform the lila of taking birth, growing to boyhood and adolescence. All of this makes the prakata lila sweeter and more charming. It is called nara-lila as opposed to Krsna's deva-lila in his aprakata pastimes of Goloka. Q. I found this verse in Sri Caitanya Caritamrita by Kavi Karnapura. It does not appear to agree with your contention that only the jiva is saguna Brahman. "In this way, that one eternal atman will remain as shesha (this one eternal atman will exist after the dissolution of the worlds), it is the Brahman with upadhi (guna) that emerges out of upadhi, otherwise that Brahman with upadhi is also called jiva." (6.67) [Excerpted from an ongoing discussion thread.] A. Yes, in this verse the jiva is being identified as saguna Brahman. But how you can use this to form a conclusion about Mahaprabhu's entire philosophy is beyond me. In this verse, the word guna has various meanings. Vaisnavas don't usually call Krsna 'saguna brahma.' But when they do, they don't mean that God has material qualities, but rather spiritual qualities. This verse uses neither the word guna or brahma, but upadhi and atma, which, though parallel concepts, are not necessarily identical. The verse must be interpreted in light of the entire siddhanta of Mahaprabhu. Over and over again it is stressed throughout all of the biographies of Mahaprabhu and in all of the books of his followers and their commentaries that the jiva is an eternal unit of consciousness and the plurality of souls in this world is not merely a result of Brahman being influenced by material nature. According to Gaudiya Vedanta, the world is a transformation of the sakti (maya sakti) of Brahman interacting with another of Brahman's saktis (jiva sakti). Previously I cited evidence from Padma Purana regarding the saktis of God in relation to the Gaudiya understanding of the Gita (jiva bhuta maha baho yayedam dharyate jagat). In spite of this and the thousands of statements regarding the nature of the jiva in Gaudiya literature, its Vedantic basis of sakti parinam vada, as opposed to Sankara's vivartavada, etc. you want to think that Mahaprabhu's teaching supports the idea that the jiva is actually Brahman in every respect, Brahman that is under the influence of material nature thus appearing as many souls. Mahaprabhu taught that the jiva and material nature are Brahman in the sense that they are saktis of Brahman and thus one with Brahman and different from Brahman simultaneously (acintya bhedabheda). You seem to be following the conclusions of Aurobindo, which is fine. But his conclusions are not the same as those of Mahaprabhu's followers. I suggested that you read read Tattva-sandarbha if you are truly interested in understanding the Vedanta of the followers of Mahaprabhu. Have you done that? Read his followers' commentaries on the Gita as well. According to Vaisnava commentaries, the Gita speaks of a plurality of eternal souls beginning with verse 2.12. According to the Vaisnava commentaries, the Gita verses that seem to speak of singularity are actually speaking of a singular class of souls. Not only the Gaudiyas, but all Vaisnavas sects understand the scripture to be speaking of an eternal plurality of souls whose individuality is not merely a product of association with material nature. Read the Gita commentaries of Madhva, Ramanuja and others. Your conclusions drawn from the Gita are different from those of the followers of Mahaprabhu and all other Vaisnava sects. Surely you don't think that yours is the only correct understanding?

It wasn't offensive, but I didn't want to see things slide downhill. Later someone else will come and say, "Hey, I can do better than that!"

I think Shvu would be happy to see a human slaughterhouse open up as a solution to the lack of food throughout the world. After all, there is no difference between cutting a carrot and killing a human - except for health considerations. Many people like to talk like this, but in reality none of them actually believe it; they just like to sound different. It is called a "muni", or one whose opinion is absolutely unique simply for the sake of having a different view. And since their opinions must be unique, they will each add their own sub-twists to make sure there is no identical opinion.

Could you give a reference for this. What is their scripture, which would talk about these asuras.

Could you give some examples? Thanks.

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By the time of Ramakrishna, the influence of Chaitanya had weakened in Bengal and Orissa. Also, I would add to the list Bangladesh (which was part of Bengal).

Yet the entire Bengal, Orissa and Manipur were converted to Gaudiya Vaishnavism; not to mention parts of North India such as Jaipur, Vrindavan, etc.

This is not a very intelligent statement. As one might expect, the divinity of Sri Chaitanya was written in the books of His followers. I wouldn't expect others to write it in their books! These books were not hidden and accessable only to Gaudiya Vaishnavas. Those who were interested to read this school's writings were aware of this point. Others who chose not to study this school's writings were not aware of this point. It has absolutely nothing to do with it "only being distributed among the Gaudiyas". The writtings of Jiva Goswami have been studied by countless scholars throuhgout India for hundreds of years. It would be more correct to say that in this century the teachings of the Gaudiya Viashnavas have come to the notice of common people; those who were scholars had studied other schools of philosophy, and Jiva Goswamis writings were and are quite famous in scholarly circles. I disagree. Who was questioned and when did this occur? You seem to be manufacturing history from your mind. Please cite evidence for this. Which scholars were asked and by whom? Again please cite your source on this, with a relevant quote.

I don't agree with him, but he has a right to discuss and doubt Sri Chaitanya's divinity. Personally I think this point has been dealt with sufficiently in the past, and he is just repeating the same arguments over and over without reading the responses he got; but he's free to do that. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-19-2001).]

This would be an interesting topic to discuss here - initiation and lineages in Buddhism. I hope some people can contribute some insight.

Some people did break some KFC's in Bangalore a few years back. But I never heard of anything after that.

[Originally posted by Mukunda Datta Das] One saintly brahmana, who was most virtuous, was touring the places of pilgrimage in order to obtain Sri Krishna. He used to worship Gopala by chanting the six-syllable Gopala mantra, and without having first offered bhoga to Gopala he would eat nothing. Hanging from his neck like a brilliant jewel was his Bala Gopala Salagrama. By his transcendental good fortune, one day he came to the home of Jagannatha Misra in Navadvipa. The pious pilgrim's brahma-tejas was incomparable; from his mouth, the sound "Krsna, Krsna" was always emanating, and within his heart he was always relishing the transcendental mellows of affection for Govinda, such that his eyes were always filled with tears. Seeing such a devotee, Jagannatha Misra at once got up and offered him respects. Jagannatha Misra did everthing appropriate to receive his exalted guest. He washed the water of that brahmana's feet and offered him an elevated seat. Inquiring about his welfare, Sri Misra said, "Dearmost brahmana, where is your residence?" The brahmana replied, "Having become indifferent to household life, I have left my own country and continually wander from one holy place to another. I cannot become attached to any one place any longer. That's why I constantly wander." Sri Misra responded with great humility, "Actually, I think that you are wandering about just to spread good fortune among the residents of this world. Especially today the topmost fortune is mine. If you give me your order, may I make arrangements for your meal?" The brahmana said, "Misraji, whatever you desire." Sri Misraji in great ecstasy collected the best of all materials and cleaned the kitchen thoroughly and presented everything to the brahmana. He also supplied the best of all foodstuffs from his pantry. The brahmana, becoming very happy, cooked everything and sat with eyes closed in meditation to offer the bhoga to Sri Gopala Krsna. Sri Sacinandana is the all-knowing Supersoul in the hearts of all living entities. He desired to give His darsana to that brahmana. The brahmana had just begun his meditation when the Lord crawled into his presence. His whole body was covered with dust and he was wearing no clothes at all. His eyes were very restless, and His feet were most beautiful. The child laughed and took a mouthful of the bhoga and the brahmana's meditation was broken. That fortunate brahmana saw what had happened and cried, "Hay! Hay! This child has ruined my offering. Sri Jagannatha Misra came and saw little Gaurasundara eating rice and smiling. Misra became furious and ran toward the child to strike him. The brahmana quickly got up and caught Jagannathe Misra with his hand saying, "Misra, you are very great, you're a very intelligent, pious gentleman. You know better than to hit a child. You know the nature of children. They know no distinction between good or bad. Please do not spank the child." Sri Misra, becoming dejected, sat down and held his head in his hands. He was so angry, he could say nothing. The brahmana said, "Misra, don't become dejected like this. Some days are like this. Bhagavan knows everything. Some days I get only fruits from a house; sometimes wonderful foodstuffs. I'll just take something simple today. Please don't mind." Misraji said, "Priyavara, if you will consider me your servant, please once more cook in my kitchen. I will supply you everything you need. Please cook again and my mind will become peaceful. This is my only request." The brahmana replied, "All right. If that is your desire I will cook again." Hearing this, everyone was happy, and somehow or other collected everything from other places, cleaned everything, and arranged for the brahmana to again cook. Everyone said to one another, "This child is too restless. See that he is restrained and cannot return again to cause more disturbances." For as long as the brahmana was cooking, the Lord was taken to another house and kept there. Sacimata, holding Nimai in her arms, took him away to another house. There, all the ladies said, "Why Nimai? Why did you eat the brahmana's offering?" The Lord smiled. His smile was as beautiful as the moon. He then said, "What fault of mine is there in this? The brahmana himself called me to eat!" They all said, "You rascal Nimai! You ate his cooking, but do you know what his caste is? Or where he's come from? What will you do now? How will you maintain your caste?" Nimai smiled and said, "I am just a cowherd, but I eat the food of brahmanas all the time. Can a cowherd's caste be spoiled by eating the cooking of brahmana?" They all looked at Nimai's mouth and began to laugh. Sri Gaura was explaining his factual identity, but they were unable to understand a single thing of it. Hearing the Lord's words, they simply laughed and squeezed Nimai to their breasts; they were unfazed. The brahmana again finished cooking and offered the bhoga to Gopala with his eyes closed, seated in meditation. He began to meditate upon Bala Gopala in his heart. This fact was taken note of by Sri Gauracandra. He is the Lord within the heart. Bewildering everyone, and laughing to Himself, He somehow escaped that house and arrived once more to where the brahmana was meditating. Quietly, He sneaked a fistful of rice and put it into His mouth. The sounds of His munching broke the brahmana's meditation--he saw Nimai. The brahmana again cried, "Hay! Hay!" and Sri Gaura Prabhu swallowed the rice and ran off. Misraji saw this and quickly took one big stick in a rage, and ran off to catch Nimai. Sri Gauranga became most fearful and ran from one house to another, and Misraji quickly followed Him, burning with anger. Sri Misra said, " If I catch you for what you've done today, I will beat you with this stick. I've lost all my patience and discrimination." "Where is that great thief of a son of mine? Which house is He hiding in?" Saying this, Jagannatha Misra pursued his son Nimai. Everyone began to say, "Misraji, you're very great and magnanimous. You ought to forgive such a minor offense. These children, they have no sense. How can you hit a mere child like this? In this way, they began to give him instruction, but to no avail. Somehow or other, the pious brahmana appeared on the scene and, clutching Jagannatha Misra's hand said, "Misra Rai, look, there's no fault in this boy. What's meant to happen is meant to happen. It just must be my fate that today Krsna will not accept my bhoga offering. That's my problem. Please don't be so dejected. This I'm telling you." Jagannatha Misra simply stood there completely angry and completely miserable. At this point, Bhagavan Visvarupa arrived there. There was incomparable beauty in all of His limbs and He had great transcendental effulegence, and charming countenance, with a yajna-sutra hanging from His shoulder, He was the personification of brahma-tejas. He was non-different from Nityananda Prabhu. All the sastric conclusions were always ready upon His tongue, and He was always explaining pure devotional service to Lord Krsna. Seeing such an unprecedented personality, the pious brahmana was struck with wonder and began to look at Him. His eyes filled with tears. He asked, "Noble Sir, whose son are You?" Everyone answered, "He is the elder son of Jagannatha Misra." Hearing this, the brahmana became very happy and embraced Visvarupa. "Your mother and father are most fortunate to have such an unequalled son as you." Sri Visvarupa offered His pranamas to the brahmana and the two sat down. As if exuding a stream of nectar from His transcendental mouth, He said, "What a fortunate, greatly auspicious day has come upon us. My house is blessed with such a saintly personality as Your Grace. Great personalities such as you wander from one place to another to bless the denizens of this planet with your purifying association. You are always full in ecstasy and, freed from any material desire, simply wander at will filled with bliss. We are most fortunate that you have arrived as an unexpected guest in our house today. What can I say of our misfortune that you are fasting? The house from which a guest leaves without having eaten will only see misfortune henceforth. Having your darsana, I am most fortunate but hearing what everyone (about your fasting) has said, I have become most unhappy. The brahmana said, don't be unhappy about anything. If there are any roots or berries available, I am content to eat that only. I am a forest-dweller, and I am well-accustomed to eating such things. Some days, nice grains are cooked, and sometimes there is some obstacle which makes this impossible. Just seeing you people has given me greater joy than millions and millions of nicely prepared offerings. Jagannatha Misra had been standing nearby, silent. He was unable to speak. Holding his head in his hands, he was simply overcome with despondancy. Sri Visvarupa said, "I am a little fearful to say this, but you are a great personality, and great personalities are like oceans of mercy. Sadhus are always unhappy at the unhappiness of others. They become jublilant in the rejoicings of others too. Therefore if you are pleased to take a little trouble to cook once more and offer your bhogas to Lord Krishna, then everyone's unhappiness will be mitigated. Then we will all experience paramananda." Sri Visvarupa continued, "Priyavara, please don't take offense, please cook something at least, just once more, and everyone will become happy. Bowing down, He clutched the feet of that brahmana in his hand with this entreaty. The brahmana looked at Visvambhara and said, "Alright, I will cook." Hearing this, everyone became joyful again, singing out, "Hari bol, Hari bol!" They all cleaned the kitchen again and in but a minute, everything was assembled and ready. The brahmana then entered the kitchen. Sri Gaura-gopala took note of this. Everyone told Jagannatha Misra, "Misra, lock your door from outside so that Nimai won't be able to get out." Misra said, "Yes, I've already locked Him up inside, too. Meanwhile everyone on the outside locked the door to Jagannatha Misra's house from the outside. The ladies all said, "Don't worry, Nimai has gone to sleep now--He won't be going out to eat anything tonight!" The brahmana soon finished his cooking. That fortunate brahmana then began to offer his bhoga to Lord Bala Gopala. Tyhe indwelling Supersoul Sri Gaurasundara then thought, "The bhoga is ready now." Once again, the desire to give His darsana to that brahmana arose within His heart. Thus the Lord left the house while everyone was sleeping (by this time, it was late at night). Nobody knew about this. Nimai appeared at the place where the brahmana was meditating. Seeing the child again, the brahmana again cried, "Hay! Hay!" In utter frustration, he began to cry. But this time nobody heard him-- they were all fast asleep. Then Sri Mahaprabhu said, "Oh, brahmana, you are very exalted. What is My fault if I come as soon as you call Me? You're chanting My mantra, invoking My name, how can I not come? Every time you're making your offering with such pure devotion, so every time I come to give you My darsana. At that very moment, the brahmana had the darshan of Lord Gaura in a wonderful form. Before him, Lord Caitanya manifested His eight-armed Bala Gopala form. In four hands were the conch, disc, club, and lotus; with two hands, He was playing the flute; in one hand He was holding a ball of butter; and with the other hand He was eating butter. Upon His breast were the srivatsa and the kaustubha jewel, and brilliant garlands of jewels hung from His neck. All of His limbs were bedecked with beautiful ornaments and jewels, and upon His head was an ornament of gunja beads and a peacock feather. The lips of His moon-like mouth were enchanting, and He looked about here and there as He smiled. He had a vaijayanti mala, and there were shark-shaped earrings swinging from His ears. There were jewelled ankle bracelets upon His feet, and His toenails were resplendent. The brahmana then saw that the Lord was beneath a kadamba tree and He saw Vrindaban, there were birds flying in all directions. On all sides of the Lord, there were cows, gopas, and gopis. Whatever the brahmana was accustomed to meditating upon within his heart, that beautiful vision was now manifest directly before his eyes. That fortunate brahmana saw such wonderful opulence that he simply fainted in bliss. The ocean of mercy, Sri Gaurasundara held him in His own transcendental hands. From His touch, the brahmana regained consciousness, but he was struck dumb with transcendental bliss and he could not even utter a word. Again and again, he fainted to the ground, and again and again he would rise in great ecstasy. There was perspiration, trembling, horipilation, and all manifestation of ecstatic symptoms in his body. A vast river of tears flowed from his eyes. For a moment the brahmana regained his sense and fell at the feet of Sri Gauranga and began to cry loudly. Seeing the condition of this brahmana, Lord Gauranga began to laugh. Sri Gaura Prabhu said, "He, Priyavara, listen. You are My servant for many births. You are always desiring my darsana, and in this way I am always giving you My darsana. In a previous birth, I gave you My darsana in just this way in the house of Nanda Maharaja. You don't remember this. When I appeared in the home of Nanda Maharaja in Gokula, in that birth, you too appeared as a brahmana wandering from one holy place to another. By transcendental fate, you came to the home of Nanda Maharaja and offered bhoga in just this way. At that time, I tricked you and ate your offerings, giving you My darsana just as I have today. You are My servant birth after birth. How could you get the darsana of such a wonderful form if it were not so? The Lord then said, "He vipra! This is a very confidential matter. You should not disclose this to anyone. If you mention this to anyone, I will annihilate you! Listen, I have now appeared in this world for the purpose of spreading Krsna Sankirtana, and I will do this. I will go house to house giving out such devotional service as either Lord Brahma or Siva cannot desire. In this way, Sri Gaurasundara pacified the brahmana, and bestowing His mercy upon him left the room. Becoming as if an ordinary baby again, He went to sleep with His mother. No one was able to understand any of these activities because of the agency of Yogamaya. Having seen this wonderful form of the Lord, the brahmana, his whole body filled with ecstasy, took the wonderful prasadam of the Lord and danced in ecstasy, crying, laughing, and singing, "Bala Gopala ki jaya!" Repeated sounds of his calling and crying woke the others in the house. They shook off sleep, said achamana, and came to see the brahmana. Seeing him, everyone became very happy. The brahmana in his mind again and again began to think, "If I could only tell these people that Parameswara is living in their home, they could become liberated from material existence and go back to Godhead." Then he thought, "Oh, even Brahma and Siva cannot have such good fortune to have the Supreme Lord living with them. They all simply think that He is an ordinary child. If I could inform them of the real situation, they could obtain the Supreme destination. But then he remembered that the Lord told him not to reveal this to anyone. And he became afraid--the Lord's request should not be broken. In this way the brahmana said nothing to anyone. Having recognized Bhagavan, that brahmana then stayed only in Navadvipa and resided there, concealing his feelings. That brahmana would go here and there to beg and every day would come with the hope of seeing Gaura Bhagavan. This pastime is found in the Sri Caitanya-caritamrita, but is more elaborately described as above, in the Sri Caitanya-bhagavata, Adi-khanda, Chapter 3.

I can't understand how that would be a sensible response. How does shutting down your websites stop your followers from leaving? Unless your philosophy is so lousy that be reading it people run away

Actually Calicut is in Kerala, it is distinct from Calcutta.

Didn't someone say "The last Christian died on the cross"?

...who would curse Krishna and throw him in the ganga for not removing his attraction to fish! Where is Sri Chaitanya's instruction to them to eat fish found? Not that they are "allowed", but that some do. Nearly all brahmins in Orissa eat fish. I would suggest it is more a sign of Kali yuga than of some transcendental exception. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-18-2001).]

In the Bhavishya Purana there is mention that Christ came from the surya-mandala, and Mohammad came from Kailasha. I have always seen a lot of effort to link Brahma and Jesus, but I don't see any evidence for it. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-18-2001).]

Not to criticize anyone, but I have come across people who can't see a difference between eating grass and eating an animal - for them they both involve killing. To me the difference is self-evident, but not to all. The gunas may play a role in that, as probably do culture and association.

I think it would be favourable for Christians to include Vishnu in their worship, but for Vaishnava's to include Christ will not be very beneficial. There is nothing wrong with the worship of Christ, but it is important to follow the proper examples set by acharyas. In the case of Christians, they lack proper acharyas, and thus their processes are mostly speculative anyway.

I would have to agree to some extent, especially since any entry would only be for political reasons. Anyone looking Indian can go inside the temple on their own without being noticed. No one there has the mystic ability to see they had converted and reconverted or whatever. The only way they would be barred entry would be if they all came as a group and announced it in the newspaper that, "We reconverts are going to enter the Jagannath temple." Otherwise no one would know who they were, and no one would really care either. Such a move would obviously be political. I know of a case of an american black who entered the Jagannatha temple without any problem. If you look indian, thats enough. Some believe the baring of foreignors from entering Jagannatha mandir in Puri has nothing to do with religious affiliation. The Oriya saint, Achyutananda Das, has written many predictions about the Puri temple, one of which states Jagannatha will be stolen from the temple by foreignors, and the city of Puri will then be flooded. He also gives a calculation for the timing of the event in relation to an eagles nest on the Puri tower. Some believe this is why the Puri temple is against foreignors entering. [This message has been edited by jndas (edited 05-18-2001).]

Very interesting story!