Jahnava Nitai Das

Oops. I made a mistake there, so lets try again: For those who want to quote someone, you can use simple UBB codes to make the quote distnct from your writing. First you should copy and paste the quote from a message, then put "

For those who want to quote someone, you can use simple UBB codes to make the quote distnct from your writing. First you should copy and paste the quote from a message, then put " <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>" before the quote, and put "[ /quote]" after the sentence but without the space between the '[' and '/'. I had to put a space there or it will make the above text as a quote. There are a lot of other UBB commands which you can use in your messages to add italics, bold, http links, etc. To see them all, click on "UBB Code" at the bottom of the "Post New message" screen.

Another example of a post that has no relevance to the thread. You will get a few more chances.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Hmmm.. yeah correct. In Bhagwat Puran, I have read something to this effect. You have used the phrase "all the forms of the Lord". What forms are included in this. Does it include the forms of various incarnations?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was probably too general in my statement when I said "all forms" as there are bound to be minor exceptions. It generally includes all the incarnations, but there are some exceptions according to which school of Vaishnavism we are refering. I know some schools don't consider the mohini avatara to be an eternal form of the Lord. But if we take into account the famous avataras, such as matsya, kurma, varaha, etc., they are accepted by all schools as eternal forms of the Lord. They each possess their own personal abode in the realm of Vaikuntha. Even particular moods of an avatar sometimes possess a separate abode. For example there is a partha-sarathi-loka in Vaikuntha, where Lord Krishna the charioteer of Arjuna resides along with His devotees (Arjuna, Bhishma, etc.). There the Gita upadesham is constantly going on, but not to dispell ignorance - to increase the ananda.

I think there is far too much spamming going on in the forums which is disrupting the original threads. If you want to repeatedly post non-original material (i.e. copied) which is not directly related to the original thread, please start a new thread. Otherwise I will have to remove those texts, as they are disrupting the flow of many serious discussions.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The concept that God is eternal is definitely old, but in Vaishnavism, no single form of God is considered to be eternal. Is it mentioned that the two handed form of Krishna present before Arjuna in Kurikshetra is more important than any other form?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think you are mixing up the word 'eternal' with 'original'. In Vaishnavism (any school) all the forms of the Lord are considered eternal, they exist beyond time. As far as Shvu's statement that Prabhupada introduced the concept of a 'permanent form', I have to assume it was a typo, as he certainly knows that all vaishnava schools accept the Lord's forms as permanent, with perhaps the exception of the virat-rupa. In the case of the virat rupa, different schools of vaishnavism disagree. Some consider it a material and temporary form, and others do not differentiate it from the Lord's other forms.

It seems certain people are set on making sure no meaningful discussion can take place in these forums. Regardless of the topic or question being asked, they just post a tyrade of insults against institutions they don't like. Quite childish, and certainly not the sign of a rasika bhakta. Let me bring back the topic to where it started: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How is it that Krsna gave this teaching to a ksatrya and not a brahmana? and I never read anywhere that Arjuna got any disciple. So how could he transmit it ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Bhagavad Gita was originally meant for the saintly kings (raja-rishis) so that they could guide the society properly in tune with dharma. This does not mean the Gita was not meant for others, it was of course a universal message. But in re-establishing dharma ('dharma samsthapanarthaya'), the head of society was the key. For it was his duty to make sure the dharma was followed. If he was properly situated in dharma, then his faithful dependents (the citizens) would also follow dharma. Thus Lord Krishna states: evam paramparam praptam imam rajarshayo viduh "Thus this transcendental knowledge was passed down in parampara, and the saintly kings (raja-rishis) understood it in this way."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>1. If Vyasa meant it to be so, he would have mentioned that in the Bhagavatam and told people not to bother with the terse Brahma-sutras. But he has done no such thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This is a speculative point as to what Vyasa would have or would not have done. There are people influenced by various modes of nature, and the solution is different for each class. That is why 18 Puranas are written, for different classes of people. Regardless it is mentioned, nigama kalpa taror galitam phalam, Srimad Bhagavatam is the ripened fruit of Vedic knowledge. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> 2. When Madhva met Vyasa, Vyasa did not tell him so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Are you so sure? This is not a legitimate argument. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> 3. If it was a natural commentary, why did Baladeva take the trouble to write the Govinda Bhasya, instead of sticking to Chaitanya's statement? The reason of course, is that there are certain points of the Brahma-sutras that are not covered in the Bhagavatam. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No the reason is because Srimad Bhagavatam is a "natural commentary" according to tattvas. There was still a need for a chronological verse by verse commentary. As to how Srimad Bhagavatm is a commentary to Brahma sutras, and which verses of bhagavatam are commenting on which verses of brahma sutras would require a very in depth study. Sometimes a single Bhagavatam verse will comment on dozens of Brahma sutra verses. Sometimes a single brahma sutra verse will be commented on by dozens of Bhagavatam verses. This is part of the import of "natural commentary".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well then, why did Vyasa bother with 17 more Puranas and also take the trouble of composing the Brahma-sutras?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As you are aware, Srimad Bhagavatam was written after Vyasa completed the other 17 Puranas and the Brahma-sutras. Srimad Bhagavatam was written as a natural commentary on the Brahma-sutras, and for this reason Vyasa started both with the same verse, janmady asya yathah.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I notice that you say vedic and then quote from the SB. Just for the record, Puranas are not vedic...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Is this the Shvu slide again? Why waste peoples time by repeating non-related arguments that have been answered before. Just for the record, your use of the word Vedic is not the only accepted use in the universe. As was mentioned before, Vedic refers to a culture, any text belonging to that culture can be called as Vedic according to english grammar.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If the Acharya meant Samadhi, then why use the word dream? Was it the translator lacking in english skills or is it you re-interpreting it so?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It is common in sanskrit to use the words "yoga-nidra" (mystic sleep) to refer to a state of trance in complete samadhi.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The point is that his statements(Ramana's)agreed >with Shankara's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Did they really? Ramana was not a teacher and really has nothing coherent we can call as statements. All of his "teachings" were the writings of Ganapathi Shastri and Kapali Shastri, both of whom were tantrics. Ganapathi Shastri and Kapali Shastri claimed to be "disciples" of Ramana, which can also be debated. They were responsible for making Ramana famous, otherwise people just threw stones at him. It is funny how a self-realized saint is only accepted by the public after a scholar recognizes him as such. Also funny is the number of books available on "the teachings of ramana", which are nothing more than shankara's teachings stamped with ramana's name, usually written by some westerner who just passed through Tiruvannamalai. It is not that ramana taught shankara's advaita. Ramana was a realized soul who didn't care about the external world. He couldn't care less about shankara's advaita. He was already realized. All his "teachings" are later peoples speculation about what he must have taught. Ramana himself is a great realized soul.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Since both the translations differ in their meaning, obviously only one of them has to be correct.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You always make the mistake of basing your assumptions on faulty premises. Something which is "obvious" to you also happens to be incorrect. Vedic text are not limited to a single meaning. Each text has hundreds of meanings, some obvious and some requiring explanation. On the very external level, each text has four meanings corresponding to dharma, artha, kama and moksha. Sometimes what appears obvious to us is actually illusion. This is why the scriptures advise us to approach a self-realized soul, or tattva-darshi. The senses are always subject to illusion. Thus what appears crystal clear to us may actually be a thick cloud of avidya. It is the guidance of the tattva-darshi which will benefit us.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Unfortunately for the Gaudiyas, they appeared only in the Purana versions of West-Bengal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually this is incorrect, but there is no point debating this with you, as you have little experience in studying various shakas of puranic texts. You standard rebuttle is always, "So there, your all wrong." Don't mind, but I will pass.

The following article appeared in our newsletter Tattva Prakasha, Volume 1 Issue 4. Since this topic has come up here again, I shall repost this to the forums. Those who study these references sincerely will understand the true position of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Others may prefer to blindly reject all references as false, without even verifying their authenticity. ----------- "Who was Chaitanya Mahaprabhu?" Sri Chaitanya is the Kali-yuga avatara, and He descended for the purpose of establishing the yuga dharma, which in this age is the chanting of Lord Krishna's names. He appeared in the guise of a devotee to perfectly show how the process of devotion should be followed and applied. It is something like a teacher drawing on the black board "A B C". We should not think the teacher is himself learning the alphabets, but he is doing it to show us how to write properly. The inner purpose of Sri Chaitanya's incarnation was to experience the devotional love that Radharani has for Krishna. He wanted to experience the process of bhakti from the side of the devotee. In other ages the Lord incarnates along with His weapons for destroying the demons, but in Kali yuga He shows special mercy to the demons by delivering them with nama-sankirtana. In the Kali-yuga there are practically only demons on this earth, so if the Lord were to kill the demons there would be nobody left. Instead He chose to kill the demoniac tendency within the heart of the demons by giving them Krishna bhakti. Sri Chaitanya is described in the following verse composed by Sri Rupa Goswami: namo maha-vadanyaya krishna-prema-pradaya te krishnaya krishna-caitanya- namne gaura-tvishe namah "I offer my respectful obeisances unto Sri Chaitanya, who is the most merciful incarnation. He has appeared in a golden color for the purpose of freely distributing pure love of Krishna." In other incarnations, Lord Krishna would require the devotee to first surrender to Him: sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja. But in the incarnation as Sri Chaitanya, He would go to the non-devotees and freely distribute krishna-prema to all. This is the unique blessing of this age of Kali. Despite it being the most sinful age, the process of self-realization is the simplest and most accessible to all classes of men. Lord Chaitanya's incarnation is mentioned and predicted in numerous scriptures. The following are some of the important references. In the Atharva Veda (Purusha-bodini Upanishad) it is said: saptame gaura-varna-vishnor ity anena sva-shaktya caikyam etya prante pratar avatirya saha svaih sva-manum shikshayati "In the seventh manvantara, the Supreme Lord will, accompanied by His own associates, descend in a golden form. He will teach the chanting of His own holy names." It is further stated in the Atharva Veda: ito 'ham krita-sannyaso 'vatarishyami sa-guno nirvedo nishkamo bhu-girbanas tira-stho 'lakanandayah kalau catuh-sahasrabdhopari panca-sahasrabhyantare gaura-varno dirghangah sarva-lakshana-yukta ishvara-prarthito nija-rasasvado bhakta-rupo mishrakhyo vidita-yogah syam "The Supreme Lord Himself says: When between four thousand and five thousand years of Kali-yuga have passed, I will descend to the earth in a place by the Ganges' shore. I will be a tall, saintly brahmana devotee of the Lord, and have a golden complexion. I will be renounced and free from all desire. I will accept the order of renunciation (sannyasa). I will be a devotee advanced in bhakti-yoga. I will chant the holy names of the Lord. I will taste the sweet mellows of My own devotional service. Only the great devotees will understand Me." In the Sama Veda the Lord states: tathaham krita-sannyaso bhu-girbano 'vatarisye tire 'lakanandayah punah punar ishvara-prarthitah sa-parivaro niralambo nirdhuteh kali-kalmasha-kavalita-janavalambanaya "To deliver the people devoured by the sins of Kali-yuga, I will, accompanied by My associates, descend to the earth in a place by the Ganges shore. I will be a brahmana avadhuta sannyasi. Again and again I will chant the holy names of the Lord." In the Krishna Upanishad it is stated: sa eva bhagavan yuge turiye 'pi brahma-kule jayamanah sarva upanishadah uddidirshuh sarvani dharma-shastrani vistarayishnuh sarvan api janan santarayishnuh sarvan api vaishnavan dharman vijrimbhayan sarvan api pashandan nicakhana "In the Kali-yuga, Lord Krishna will appear in a brahmana's family. He will teach the message of the Upanishads and the dharma-shastras. He will defeat the atheists and offenders and He will establish the truth of Vaishnava dharma." In the eleventh canto of Srimad Bhagavatam the following verse is found: krishna-varnam tvishakrishnam sangopangastra-parshadam yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi su-medhasah "In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead, who constantly sings the name of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons, and confidential companions." In the seventh canto of Srimad Bhagavatam is the following verse describing the Lord's incarnations: channah kalau yad abhava tri-yugo 'tha sa tvam "Because in Kali-yuga You appear in a covered incarnation, you are therefore known as Tri-yuga (one who appears in only three yugas)." The incarnation of Sri Chaitanya is a hidden incarnation because He appears in the guise of His devotee. This covered incarnation is confirmed in both the Adi Purana and the Narada Purana in the following verse: aham eva dvija-shreshtho nityam pracchanna-vigrahah bhagavad-bhakta-rupena lokam rakshami sarvada "My true identity always concealed, I will assume the form of a brahmana devotee of the Lord. In this form I will deliver the worlds." In the Kurma Purana the following statement is found: kalina dahyamananam uddharaya tanu-bhritam janma prathama-sandhyayam bhavishyati dvi jalaye "To deliver the conditioned souls burning in the troubles of Kali-yuga, in the first sandhya of that age the Lord will take birth in a brahmana's home." In the Garuda Purana the Lord Himself states: kalina dahyamananam paritranaya tanu-bhritam janma prathama-sandhyayam karishyami dvi jatishu "To deliver the conditioned souls burning in the troubles of Kali-yuga, in the first sandhya of that age I will take birth among the brahmanas." aham purno bhavishyami yuga-sandhau visheshatah mayapure navadvipe bhavishyami shaci-sutah "In My original spiritual form, perfect and complete, I will become the son of Shachi-devi in Navadvipa Mayapura at the begining of Kali-yuga. Sri Chaitanya was born in Mayapura, a subsection of the holy town of Navadvipa, to Shachi-devi in 1486 AD, aproximately 4,500 years after the beginning of the Kali-yuga. ELsewhere in the Garuda Purana it is said: kaleh prathama-sandhyayam lakshmi-kanto bhavishyati daru-brahma-samipa-sthah sannyasi gaura-vigrahah "In the first sandhya of Kali-yuga, the Lord will assume a golden form. First He will be the husband of Lakshmi, and then He will be a sannyasi who stays near Lord Jagannatha at Puri." Sri Chaitanya first married His eternal consort Sri Lakshmi-priya Devi before taking sannyasa at the age of twenty-four. After taking sannyasa He left Navadvipa in Bengal, and resided in the holy city of Puri in Orissa. Lord Jagannatha, the presiding deity of Puri is known in the Puranas by the name daru-brahma or "the Lord who is wood". This is because the Jagannatha deities in Puri are made from Neem wood. Also in the Garuda Purana: yo reme saha-ballavi ramayate vrindavane 'har-nisham yah kamsam ni jaghana kaurava-rane yah pandavanam sakha so 'yam vainava-danda-mandita-bhujah sannyasa-veshah svayam nihsandeham upagatah kshiti-tale caitanya-rupah prabhuh "The Supreme Lord who enjoyed pastimes with the gopis, who day and night filled the people of Vrindavana with happiness, who killed kamsa, and who in the war between the Kauravas made friendship with the Pandavas, will come again to the earth. Of this there is no doubt. His arm will be decorated with a bamboo danda (stick), He will be a sannyasi and His name will be Chaitanya." The custom is that one begins carrying a bamboo rod (danda) after one takes sannyasa. Sri Chaitanya was an eka-danda sannyasi, thus He carried a single bamboo rod. In the Devi Purana we find the following statement: nama-siddhanta-sampatti prakashana-parayanah kvacit sri-krishna-chaitanya- nama loke bhavishyati "The Lord will again appear in this world. His name will be Sri Krishna Chaitanya and He will spread the chanting of the Lord's holy names. Sri Chaitanya perfectly illuminated the glories of the nama-siddhanta as predicted in this verse. In the Nrisimha Purana it is mentioned: satye daitya-kuladhi-nasha-samaye simhordhva-martyakritis tretayam dasa-kandharam paribhavan rameti namakritih gopalan paripalayan vraja-pure bharam haran dvapare gaurangah priya-kirtanah kali-yuge caitanya-nama prabhuh "The Supreme Lord, who in the Satya-yuga appeared as a half-man half-lion to cure a terrible disease that had ravaged the daityas, and who in Treta-yuga appeared as Rama, a person who defeated the ten-headed Ravana , and who in Dvapara-yuga removed the earth's burden and protected the gopa people of Vraja-pura, will appear again in the Kali-yuga. His form will be golden, He will delight in chanting the Lord's holy names, and His name will be Chaitanya." In the Padma Purana we find the following statement from the Lord: kaleh prathama-sandhyayam gaurango 'ham mahi-tale bhagirathi-tate ramye bhavishyami shaci-sutah "In the first sandhya of Kali-yuga I will appear on the earth in a beautiful place by the Gange's shore. I will be the son of Shachi-devi and My complexion will be golden." In the Narada Purana the Lord says: aham eva kalau vipra nityam pracchanna-vigrahah bhagavad-bhakta-rupena lokan rakshami sarvada "O brahmana, in the age of Kali I will appear disguised as a devotee of the Lord and I will deliver all the worlds." divija bhuvi jayadhvam jayadhvam bhakta-rupinah kalau sankirtanarambhe bhavishyami shaci-sutah "O demigods, in the Kali-yuga take birth as devotees on the earth. I will appear as the son of Shachi in Kali-yuga to start the sankirtana movement." Nama-sankirtana, or the chanting of the Lord's names is the yuga dharma for the age of Kali. Establishing this was Sri Chaitanya's primary purpose for incarnating. In the Bhavishya Purana we find: anandashru-kala-roma- harsha-purnam tapo-dhana sarve mam eva drakshyanti kalau sannyasa-rupinam "O sage whose wealth is austerity, in the Kali-yuga everyone will see My form as a sannyasi, a form filled with tears of bliss and bodily hairs standing erect in ecstacy." Sri Chaitanya would always display such symptoms of pure love of Krishna. When chanting the names of the Lord tears would flow from His eyes, and the hair on His body would stand erect. In his life Sri Chaitanya personally only composed eight verses known as Shikshashtakam. In the sixth verse He states: nayanam galad-ashru-dharaya vadanam gadgada-ruddhaya gira pulakair nicitam vapuh kada tava nama-grahane bhavishyati "O my Lord, when will my eyes be decorated with tears of love flowing constantly when I chant Your holy name? When will my voice choke up, and when will the hairs of my body stand on end at the recitation of Your name?" Then in the seventh verse He says: yugayitam nimeshena cakshusha pravrishayitam shunyayitam jagat sarvam govinda-virahena me "O Govinda! Feeling Your separation, I am considering a moment to be like many years. Tears are flowing from my eyes like torents of rain, and I am feeling all vacant in the world in your absence." These emotional symptoms of devotion were constantly being displayed by Sri Chaitanya. In the Matsya Purana the following statement is made by the Lord: mundo gaurah su-dirghangas tri-srotas-tira-sambhavah dayaluh kirtana-grahi bhavishyami kalau yuge "In the Kali-yuga I will take birth in a place where three rivers meet. I will be golden color and tall. I will have a shaven head. I will be very merciful, and I will eagerly chant the holy names." The place where three rivers meet is Navadvipa. It is the custom that eka-danda sannyasis completely shave their head when they take sannyasa, and Sri Chaitanya followed this principle. This same verse is also found in the Vayu Purana with just two words appearing differently. The Vayu Purana verse mentions the Ganges river instead of 'three rivers'. In the Vamana Purana the Lord says: kali-ghora-tamas-channat sarvan acara-var jitan shaci-garbhe ca sambhuya tarayishyami narada "O Narada, taking birth in Shachi-devi's womb, I will deliver the sinful people from the terrible darkness of Kali-yuga." In the Vayu Purana the Lord states: paurnamasyam phalgunasya phalguni-riksha-yogatah bhavishye gaura-rupena shaci-garbhe purandarat "In the month of Phalguna, when the star phalguni is conjoined with the full moon, I will appear in a golden form begotten by Purandara in Shachi-devi's womb." Sri Chaitanya's father was known by the names Purandara Mishra and Jagannatha Mishra. Sri Chaitanya was born on the full moon day of the month of Phalguna. svarnadi-tiram asthaya navadvipe janashraye tatra dvi ja-kulam prapto bhavishyami janalaye "I will take birth in a brahmana family in the city of Navadvipa, by the Ganges shore." bhakti-yoga-pradanaya lokasyanugrahaya ca sannyasa-rupam asthaya krishna-chaitanya-nama-dhrik "In order to show mercy to the people and engage them in devotional service, I will accept sannyasa. Then My name will be Sri Krishna Chaitanya." In the Ananta Samhita we find: svarnadi-tiram ashritya navadvipe dvijalaye sampradatum bhakti-yogam laksyanugrahaya ca "To show mercy to the people and give them devotional service, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will appear in a brahmana's home in Navadvipa by the Gange's shore." Then the Lord states: avatirno bhavishyami kalau nija-ganaih saha shaci-garbhe navadvipe svardhuni-parivarite "In Kali-yuga I will descend to the earth with My associates. In Navadvipa, which is surrounded by the Ganges, I will take birth in Shachi-devi's womb." In the Urdhvamnaya Tantra it is mentioned: kalau purandarat shacyam gaura-rupo vibhu smritah "In kali-yuga I will appear in a golden form as the son of Purandara and Shachi-devi." In the Krishna-yamala it is stated: aham purno bhavishyami yuga-sandhau visheshatah mayapure navadvipe varam ekam shaci-sutah "During the first sandhya of Kali-yuga I will descend, with all My powers and glories, to Mayapura in Navadvipa and become the son of Shachi-devi." In the Brahma-yamala: athavaham dhara-dhamni bhutva mad-bhakta-rupa-dhrik mayayam ca bhavishyami kalau sankirtanagame "I will appear on the earth in the garb of My devotee. In the Kali-yuga I will appear in Mayapura to start the sankirtana movement." kalau prathama-sandhyayam hari-nama-pradayakah bhavishyati navadvipe shaci-garbhe janardanah "In the first sandhya of kali-yuga, Lord Krishna will appear in Navadvipa, in Shachi-devi's womb. In that incarnation He will teach the chanting of Lord Hari's holy names." In the Ananta Samhita we find: gauri shri-radhika devi harih krishna prakirtitah ekatvac ca tayoh sakshad iti gaura-harim viduh "The golden Goddess Radha is known by the name Gauri and the dark Lord Krishna is known by the name Hari. Aware that both of them have combined, the wise call Him as Gaurahari." navadvipe tu tah sakhyo bhakta-rupa-dharah priye ekangam shri-gaura-harim sevante satatam muda "O beloved, assuming the forms of devotees the gopis will also take birth in Navadvipa. With great happiness they will again and again serve Lord Gaurahari, who is Radha and krishna combined in a single form." In the Krishna-yamala we further find: iti matva kripa-sindhur amshena kripaya harih prasanno bhakta-rupena kalav avatarishyati "Thinking in this way, Lord Krishna, who is an ocean of mercy, mercifully decided to appear as a devotee in Kali-yuga." gaurango nada-gambhirah sva-namamrita-lalasah dayaluh kirtana-grahi bhavishyati shaci-sutah "His limbs will be golden and His voice deep. He will be very merciful. He will yearn to taste the nectar of His own holy name. He will be attached to chanting His own holy name. He will be the son of Shachi-devi." In the Jaimini-bharata it is said: anyavatara bahavah sarve sadharana matah kalau krishnavataras tu gudhah sannyasa-vesha-dhrik "Lord Krishna descends to the world in many different forms. However in Kali-yuga, His incarnation is hidden. At that time He appears disguised as a sannyasi." In the Yoga-vashishtha we find: kaleh prathama-sandhyayam gaurango 'sau mahi-tale bhagirathi-tate ramye bhavishyati sanatanah "In the first sandhya of Kali-yuga, on the earth, by the beautiful shore of the Ganges, the Lord will appear in His eternal golden form." In the Skanda Purana: antah krishna bahir gaurah sangopangastra-parshadah shaci-garbhe samapnuyam maya-manusha-karma-krit "Outwardly of golden complexion, but inwardly Krishna, I will take My birth in the womb of Shachi-devi. Accompanied by My associates, servants, weapons, and confidential companions, I will assume the role of a human being." In the Kapila Tantra we find the following statements: kvacit sapi krishnam aha shrinu mad-vacanam priya bhavata ca sahaikatmyam icchami bhavitum prabho mama bhavanvitam rupam hridayahlada-karanam parasparanga-madhya-stham krida-kautuka-mangalam paraspara-svabhavadhyam rupam ekam pradarshaya shrutva tu preyasi-vakyam parama-priti-suchakam svecchayasid yatha purvam utsahena jagad-guruh premalingana-yogena hy acintya-shakti-yogatah radha-bhava-kanti-yuktam murtim ekam prakasayan svapne tu darshayam asa radhikayai svayam prabhuh "Then Sri Radha said to Lord Krishna: O beloved, please hear My words. I yearn to become one with you. Please show a form where You and I embrace and Our two bodies become one, a form filled with the love I bear for You, a form filled with auspicious and blissful pastimes, a form that brings bliss to the heart, a form that unites Our two natures.' "Hearing His beloved's words, which were filled with joy and love, Lord krishna passionately embraced Her. Then by the touch of His inconceivable potency Their two forms joined and became one, a single form endowed with Sri Radha's divine love and glorious splendour. In a dream Lord Krishna showed all this to Sri Radha." Other direct references are found in the Vishvasara Tantra, Kularnava Tantra, Brahma-rahasya, and Vishnu-yamala. Besides these there are complete chapters about Sri Chaitanya's incarnation in the Vayu Purana and Bhavishya Purana, which are too long to quote here. Also there is a text by the name Chaitanya Upanishad within the Atharva Veda, which explains the Lord's incarnation in Kali-yuga. I have not cited it here, as it was rediscovered in recent times, so most people will reject it's authenticity, or at least its value as evidence. Sri Chaitanya's incarnation was a hidden incarnation, thus He burried references to His appearance deep within the ocean of vedic texts. His desire was that His disguise would not be betrayed, so He made sure these references would remain hidden until after His incarnation was complete. These text's were always present, but by the inconceivable yoga-maya of the Lord, He covered His true identity even from the Vedic scholars and panditas. Only the pure devotees understood His actual identity. In the Ananta Samhita we find this very relevant statement regarding Sri Chaitanya's incarnation: aprakashyam idam guhyam na prakashyam bahir mukhe bhaktavataram bhaktakhyam bhaktam bhakti-pradam svayam man-maya-mohitah kecin na jnasyanti bahir-mukhah jnasyanti mad-bhakti-yuktah sadhavo nyasino 'malah "Those who are bewildered by My illusory potency will not understand the great secret of My appearance in this world in My personal form, in My form as the incarnation of a devotee, in My form bearing the name of a devotee, in My form as a devotee, and in My form as the giver of devotional service. This secret is not to be revealed to them. Only the saintly, pure, renounced devotees, diligently engaged in My devotional service, will be able to understand Me in these forms."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>1. I gave you the correct translation, and you skipped that. Let me know if you want a word-to-word transliteration and I can give you that too. Or more simply you can try it yourself to see that your translation is wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You are incorrect on this point, as the translation provided is not incorrect gramatically, it just deviates from you understanding. Both translations provided are quite literal and accurate.

That didn't come right, so let me try it again. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The real beauty of Advaita is that there are living examples like Ramana, Ramakrishna et al, who have time and again showed the authenticity of Shankara. The key point here is that none of them were actual followers of Advaita, yet the truth discovered by them was exactly what Advaita says.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And the bhakti saints, though not following a single path, also showed the authenticity of the bhagavat-dharma as the higest path. The key point being, that you will reject statements about bhakti acharya's as imagination or exageration, but readily accept the unproven statements regarding saints you favour. Quite a double standard, but your free to have your own beliefs. Just a quick question. How is it that you know whether or not the saints you mentioned actually had the experiences and realizations that are attributed to them? How do you know if Ramana had a realization that confirmed Shankara. Did Ramana write any books? Did you get into his mind and see his experience? Or are you just repeating what other people have told you. It is really funny how you can say: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...yet the truth discovered by them was exactly what Advaita says.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Do you really believe they discovered any truth? Simply because they all followed neo-vedanta does not establish anything as a more authentic truth. On what do you really base your judgements. You aren't sounding very rational now, just sentimental.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The real beauty of Advaita is that there are living examples like Ramana, Ramakrishna et al, who have time and again showed the authenticity of Shankara. The key point here is that none of them were actual followers of Advaita, yet the truth discovered by them was exactly what Advaita says.

Sri Sanjaya also receives the Gita Upadesha through his mystic vision, which he obtained by the mercy of Vyasa Muni, his spiritual master. Thus sat-dharma is re-established in the parampara from Vyasa.

When the process of initiation is based on the delusion of a conditioned souls "inspiration" the process is sure to fail. They claim the system established by Srila Prabhupada is not being properly executed. So they choose to manufacture a process of initiation which has no connection to Prabhupada, whereby you ask Srila Prabhupada's deity to initiate you and then you, a conditioned soul, choose your own spiritual name. It is a creation of the mental factory of conditioned souls. What is the use of following a process established by conditioned souls? Another fault of this process is you are assuming the guru (Srila Prabhupada) must accept you as a disciple. Why? You take away his free will to refuse you as a disciple. The process of initiation basically becomes a ritual just as is performed in the families of caste brahmanas. Theonly benefit is a mental satisfaction that "I have fulfilled my religious duties." Those who are sincere in their spiritual pursuits must find the shelter of a liberated soul and inquire from him submissively. This concept is not something knew, for Lord Krishna has established it as the process in the Gita. It may be difficult to find a liberated soul, much more difficult than finding a deity or picture of Srila Prabhupada, but that is the sacrifice one must take if they are actually interested in advancing in spiritual life. Find a liberated soul, render menial service to him, and inquire from him submissively. This is the process we must follow.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why should any sincere seeker read their speculative commentaries on Great Personalities,in the firstplace?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Again, I will remind you that the articles in question have nothing at all to do with ISKCON. It seems some people just have a hatred for ISKCON deep inside their heart which they are unable to become free from. Any chance they get to criticize ISKCON, they are quick to jump up. Though externally such people may claim to follow Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, and though they have ample knowledge of his teachings as is evident by their flooding forums with unconnected quotes from the Him and spamming emails to anyone they can, internally they have failed to apply His most basic teaching of being humbler than the straw in the street. Such people need to take a serious look at their self and try to understand their spiritual maturity. The guidance of a self realized soul will be helpful in this regard, much more helpful than a self proclaimed rasa-avatara.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Also what about the Chaitanya Upanisad that was introduced by Bhaktivinode Thakur?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There are countless Upanishads, Puranas, and other Vedic texts that are not within the list of major texts. This does not indicate that the text is bonafide or not. As far as Chaitanya Upanishad, it is a text to be relished by devotees, not necesarily to be used as an evidence. There is ample evidence throughout the Puranas as to Sri Chaitanya's divinity.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is there a current translation of this purana?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As far as I know there is no English transaltion of this Purana. I know there is a Hindi translation available in Delhi, though I don't recall by whom. Motilal Banarsidas has a project to translate the 18 major Puranas into English. They have already completed a number of them. Bhavishya is somewhere on their list of things to do. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Does it directly mention Sri Chaitanya, Ramanuja and Madhva by name?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Much more than that. There are whole chapters describing the life of Chaitanya, the goswamis, the four sampradaya acharyas, etc. Of course for a rationalist who doesn't believe in God, it is impossible to accept Bhavishya Purana as authentic, as no one could know the future. The text is considered interpolated on the grounds that it is too correct. For the devotees, the name of the text implies the content. If God wanted to write a book titled "history of the future" (Bhavishya Purana), we would expect Him to be quite accurate since He is all-knowing.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have been reading the ISKCON versions of the biographies of the 3 great Acharyas [The big 3] Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhva.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Your observations are based on two faulty premises. The first is that these articles are from ISKCON. They aren't. The second is that they are biographies. They aren't. They just contain some general information. Hope that clears up your misconceptions. Regarding the source of the text Navadvipa-mahatmya, these stories of Chaitanya meeting the previous acharyas in His aprakata-lila are originally found in Bhavishya Purana.

I had filled up a bottle of Ganga water from Mayapur (near Calcutta) around four or five years ago. A few months back I was going through some things and I found it. After more than four years, there wasn't any bacterial growth and the water was still clean. Ordinary water goes bad in a couple weeks. All sorts of things will grow in it, and the smell will be terrible. These properties of the Ganga were even known to western traders who would fill their ships with it for long journeys.