vijay

"So it is correct in EVERYTHING just because it doesn't change?" I think the point is that we will never now either way as we are in a conditoned gross and subtle body. The only way to know for sure is work top down. "So would you consider me a non-believer in the Bhagavatam because I don't accept that there is only one sun in the entire universe for example even though I accept the conclusion which is Krsna is the Supreme Lord, that He is personal with impersonal energies etc. ? " Personally its not my place to judge if your a believer or not. You and me by definition are not full believers in the bhagvatam, im not, in terms of following all the instructions and truely believing everything (else i would of surrendered) and you by not believing the non-essential past-times. The main thing is trying the process of bhakti. Our process is that one accepts the experiment, practicing it and then relise the truth. Theretical knowledge has limited uses, if the Sun or moon controversy bugs you then its better to see it as I dont understand it yet, using it to motivate us to get out of this world of confusion, lets clean the mirror of the mind so we can tell either way. Personally I dont think its important to accept everything fully, or reject anything fully, once on the path things are suppose to get clearer accepting whats favorable to surrendering and rejecting all else. Thinking the sun is the centre is not a pre-requisite for love of god. I personally used to like finding so-called holes in the philosophy especially when my spirtual life wernt going so well, eventually I figured out why basically i had the same reservations in some form or another again and again, it was just a subtle trick of the mind not wanting to surrender to anything even after knowing this material world is deinately not going to make me happy .

With our imperfect senses and huge ego's we are blind to the truth we will never know if science is correct or the bhagvatam. Science changes everyday, aswell as our ideas, the bhagavatam doesnt, and from the so-called rational side it may seem irational and dogmatic which is expected. The bhagvatam and prabhupadas purport say they are perfect, we may not believe it. The only way to actually know is carry out the process. Everything else unfortunately is just pure speculation, talks of probabilities and arrogance, the frog in the well, the ant commenting on creation, the limited human mind trying to understand reality. I dont think that anyone should blindly believe anything except belief that they are blind then one can start to figure out where the light is. Theres a nice article on chakra about top down understanding.

So when krishna allows through paramatma does the guru become aware of what he needs to be aware of. So most of the time offering to the guru is not supposed to be taken as literal and more of a relationship and humility building process as the guru is not actually offering the food to krishna as the guru is unaware of it taking place? Is this the correct understanding?

Thanks for all the varied answers, does anyone have any scriptual knowledge of where I can find out? I've read there are 2 types of spirtual master one that can commit mistakes but follows his gurus perfectly, and another who is a self relised spirtual master. In a letter " The statements of Thakura Bhaktivinode are as good as scriptures because he is liberated person. Generally the spiritual master comes from the group of such eternal associates of the Lord; but anyone who follows the principles of such ever liberated persons is as good as one in the above mentioned group. The gurus from nature's study are accepted as such on the principle that an elevated person in Krishna Consciousness does not accept anyone as disciple, but he accepts everyone as expansion of his guru. That is very high position, called Maha-bhagavata. Just like Radharani, sometimes thinks a subordinate of hers as her teacher, to understand devotion of Krishna. A person who is liberated acharya and guru cannot commit any mistake, but there are persons who are less qualified or not liberated, but still can act as guru and acharya by strictly following the disciplic succession. It is the injunction of the sastras that anyone who sees the Deity in the Temple as made of wood or stone, or considers the acaryas and gurus as ordinary common men, and discriminates Vaisnavas or devotees as belonging to a certain group or caste, are called hellish. " HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada And here srila prabhupada talks about offering food to the guru who offers to krishna then he himself takes. Regarding offering food: The custom is to offer the foodstuff first to the Spiritual Master; we cannot do anything directly. The Spiritual Master accepts the offering on behalf of his disciple, and offers the same to Krishna. After Krishna's eating, the Spiritual Master eats it, and then the devotees take it as Mahaprasada. This is the system. Everything is offered to the Spiritual Master first, with the prayer "Nama Om Visnupadaya . . ." If, in the cooking process, food falls on the floor, if it is raw and can be washed nicely, then it can be offered. But if it is prepared and cannot be washed, then it is not to be offered, but can be eaten rather than be wasted. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada So can the self relised guru know if a devotee is offering food with love and devotion? If he doesnt know then how does the spirtual master in turn offer the food to krishna then eats it himself? if mystic yogis can know peoples thoughts remotely and even implant them amongst other things then shouldnt the self relised soul also be aware of what his diciples are doing? (or he may totaly rely on krishna and not use any omnipotency he has?) I can understand him not knowing if he is a spirtual master in the second category of following perfectly the instructions of the previous acrayas but not being fully relised. Or am I getting this all wrong? Is it not supposed to be taken as literal and more of a relationship and humility building process?

When we offer food to krishna it is said that we should ask guru to help us. How does the guru actually do this? If the guru is on the planet but not near you and you ask him through a picture to help you offer some food, then when you go to him in person does he know that he helped you? If not then did he actually help you?

There may be a problem with the http://www.sanskrit.org/adhunika-vada.pdf link

I remember reading this a while back, I think he also writes somewhere maybe near the end that adhunika-vada, or the modern approach is subject to change in light of new evidence whereas the tradition is not, and in studying in this way the theory now may be proved wrong later.

in bhagvatam 8.7.21 prabhupada says this about shiva "Since Lord Siva is in charge of annihilation, why should he be approached for protection, which is given by Lord Visnu? Lord Brahma creates, and Lord Siva annihilates, but both Lord Brahma and Lord Siva are incarnations of Lord Visnu and are known as saktyavesa-avataras. They are endowed with a special power like that of Lord Visnu, who is actually all-pervading in their activities. Therefore whenever prayers for protection are offered to Lord Siva, actually Lord Visnu is indicated, for otherwise Lord Siva is meant for destruction. Lord Siva is one of the isvaras, or the controllers known as saktyavesa-avataras. Therefore he can be addressed as having the qualities of Lord Visnu." HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada The next purports also go on to explain shiva in more detail. Heres 8.7.29 The five mantras mentioned in this connection are as follows: (1) Purusa, (2) Aghora, (3) Sadyojata, (4) Vamadeva, and (5) Isana. These five mantras are within the category of thirty-eight special Vedic mantras chanted by Lord Siva, who is therefore celebrated as Siva or Mahadeva. Another reason why Lord Siva is called Siva, which means "all-auspicious," is that he is self-illuminated, exactly like Lord Visnu, who is the Paramatma. Because Lord Siva is directly an incarnation of Lord Visnu, he is situated as Lord Visnu's direct representative. This fact is corroborated by a Vedic mantra: patim visvasyatmesvaram sasvatam. sivam acyutam. The Supersoul is called by many names, of which Mahesvara, Siva and Acyuta are especially mentioned. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada In purport 8.7.33 Srila prabhupada goes on to say that ordinary persons should not try to understand Lord shiva and his activities, In CC. Adi 6.79 srila prabhupada says the following in the purport (advisable to read all of it as he talks about different rudras) In the Puranas it is found that Durga appears sometimes from the heads of Brahma and sometimes from the heads of Visnu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Sankarsana and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vayu Purana there is a description of Sadasiva in one of the Vaikuntha planets. That Sadasiva is a direct expansion of Lord Krsna's form for pastimes. It is said that Sadasiva (Lord Sambhu) is an expansion from the Sadasiva in the Vaikuntha planets (Lord Visnu) and that his consort, Mahamaya, is an expansion of Ramadevi, or Laksmi. Mahamaya is the origin or birthplace of material nature. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Since the position of shiva is different than other living entities he is described as paramatma as in his original form which expands from sankarsana in vaikuntha he is the cause of paramatma. It is mentioned in the bahgvatam that shiva is also the greatest devotee and that he meditates on sankarshan(Vishnu). He is also know as gopesvar as he entered the rasa lila of krishna. Sometimes you'll find demigods glorifying shiva sometimes saying he is even greater than lord vishnu, in some cases its due to the devotee being seen as more merciful than the lord himself just like radharani and others, however in some case if seen in context for example during the churning of the milk ocean poison was released and they apporached shiva and in desperation glorified him so he will help them, like krishna says some living entities pray to the demigods for their intelligence is stolen by material desires, and therefore they will see the demigod as the highest. (I think prabhupada talks about this in bhagvatam 8.7.30) Just as even narada muni once used to think that bramha was the greatest until bramha reveiled that there is someone higher than me. Thats the way I've understood it and my understanding definately has mistakes as siva tattva, guru tatva, mercy and a few other things are very difficult to comprehend. Hope it helps. YS Vijay

Im not an expert in this subject and am going to say what I've heard and read so take with a pinch of salt. From what I understand bramha is worshipping shiva knowing him in his original form as an expansion of sankarsana. This sankarshan as far as I know is where the 3 vishnus are expanded from, and from maha vishnu the main siva expands from his glance to impregnate material nature (durga devi) then he resides in between the spirtual and material worlds (then a shiva in every universe expands). The orginal shiva is sankarsana (sada shiva???) in vaikuntha who is the cause of the expansions of 3 vishnu and shiva, including krsidaksha vishna in every heart. Therefore in his original form shiva is also paramatma. Thats the way I've understood it and may need to be corrected.

"practical and effective? Like Islam, for instance? " Which country with islamic law is doing well ? If religion is the cause of a economically and politically better country then better to be like america and europe.

That would be nice I would ask him to come now.

Diary of a Traveling Preacher Volume 6 - Chapter 6 "Tales of Wonder" U.S.A. 14/02/05 - 28/04/05 As our two-month tour of the American temples was coming to a close, I found myself drawing on my body's reserve energies. Our schedule of two or three programs a day meant I rarely went to bed before midnight. Constantly on the move, traveling back and forth through different time zones, eating irregularly, and sleeping in a different home every other day had become a taxing routine and had taken its toll on me. In Alachua, Florida, I fainted one morning as I left the temple. A devotee helped me outside and sat me on the lawn. "Maharaja," he said, "you'd better slow down. Take it easy." "Actually I'm in good shape," I replied. "I had a full medical checkup in Mumbai two months ago, and the doctors said I was fine." "Then why did you faint?" he asked. I did my best to smile. "It's the last leg of the trip," I said. "I'll be okay. Don't worry." As I sat on the lawn recuperating, I thought back on the past two months. "If I had to do it over again," I said to myself, "I wouldn't change a thing." I love my life as a traveling preacher. I relish preaching in any given place and then picking up and moving on. Even before I was a devotee I had traveled the length and breadth of America by the time I was 14 years old. When I accepted sannyasa at 29 and started traveling extensively, it was the perfection of that desire. It was no longer the wanderlust of a restless teenager, but the solemn duty of spreading the mission of the Lord. Remaining fixed in that service has required keeping focused on the goal - and never looking back. I often remember Srila Prabhupada's words as he handed the danda to a new sannyasi in Mayapura: "Don't look back and think you have left anything behind, and never envy the position of the materialistic householders." Forget the past that sleeps and ne'er The future dream at all But act in times that are with thee And progress thee shall call. [srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Saragrahi Vaisnava, 16th stanza] But the past eight weeks had been pure preaching, and there was no harm in reflecting on the many highlights that came to mind: big temple kirtans at morning programs, selected verses from Srimad Bhagavatam that I had enjoyed speaking on, numerous sweet bhajans by Sri Prahlad, and the special feasts. But the most precious memories of all were of the many devotees I'd met. The nectar of their association far outweighed any austerities I'd encountered. And I'd had plenty of association. I suddenly realized that I was alone for the first time in months, sitting there on the lawn. I laughed out loud. Many devotees came to mind, big and small. I remembered a middle-aged woman on Harinam in New Orleans who caught my attention because she seemed to be the happiest of all the devotees there. After the Harinam, as we all walked back to the van, she approached me. "Maharaja," she said, "my name is Sarva Laskmi dasi, and I'm the happiest woman on earth." "I won't contest that," I said smiling. "I'll tell you why," she said. "In the 1960s I committed a horrible crime and was sentenced to 90 years in jail." My eyebrows went up. "But several years ago," she continued, "some devotees started a bhakti yoga program in the federal penitentiary where I was incarcerated. I began attending the programs and soon took up Krsna consciousness in earnest. "I was trying hard to become a good devotee, so I also became a model prisoner. Two years later, after my spiritual master, Bir Krsna Maharaja, initiated me inside the prison, I was suddenly granted a full pardon and released. "No official explanation was ever given why they let me go, but I knew it was simply Krsna's mercy. Now I try to share my good fortune with those who are prisoners in the jailhouse of material existence by preaching Krsna consciousness." As the woman left, I could only marvel at the clemency of the prison officials, and even more at the mercy of the Lord. And more surprises came at the Sunday feast the next day. During the program, a woman devotee asked me to bless her baby. She held the child up and said, "He's special." "Of course," I replied, thinking that all mothers think their babies are special. She smiled. "No," she said, "he really is special. He hardly moved in my womb. In fact, I didn't know I was pregnant until the eighth month." My eyebrows went up again. "I had been experiencing a number of medical problems," she continued, "but one particularly bad day I visited my doctor. Suddenly he got a surprised look on his face. "Young lady," he said, "you're pregnant!" Her husband smiled and nodded his head. "I wish the child well," I said. "I pray this may be his last birth in the material world." Then another woman approached me. "I couldn't help overhearing," she said. "You know, "I've recently been born as well." After all I'd heard in the last two days, I was ready for anything. "How's that?" I asked. "I lived in this temple 30 years ago and saw Srila Prabhupada several times," she said. "But foolishly I left early in my devotional life. Recently I've come back. I feel hope again. In effect, I've been reborn." "Will you stay with us now?" I asked. "Definitely," she replied. "I'll never leave again." The trip through the United States was filled with nectar - the kirtans, the stories of how devotees came to Krsna consciousness, the preaching, but the Lord was saving the best for last. Our last stop was the Miami temple in Coconut Grove, a beautiful property in a well-known and well-to-do area. Trivikrama Maharaja had come from Orlando for our visit, and when Sri Prahlad, Rukmini Priya, and I arrived, he greeted us with a small group of devotees having kirtan. I noted one devotee in particular, who seemed to be especially absorbed in the chanting. His eyes were closed as he concentrated on the holy names, and a blissful smile adorned his face. As the kirtan party took us into the temple, I noticed that his fixation with chanting didn't diminish. "He obviously has a strong attraction for Krsna's holy names," I thought. "I hope I can get his association." I turned to Trivikrama Maharaja. "Who is that devotee who's relishing the kirtan so much?" I asked. Maharaja smiled. "His name is Siddha-vidya dasa," he said. "He's our Godbrother, and he's been part of the Miami temple practically from the beginning." I couldn't wait to meet him, but during my short arrival talk, I noticed him get up and go out of the temple. I became anxious that I might not get his association that day. As soon as I finished my talk, I turned to another devotee. "Where did Siddha-vidya go?" I asked. "He's getting ready for Harinam," the devotee said. I was surprised because a big program was scheduled in the temple that evening. "But the program's in just a few hours," I said. The devotee laughed. "You don't know Siddha-vidya. He's been going on Harinam sankirtan in Miami practically every single day since he joined in 1971." I made a quick calculation in my mind. "Every day for 33 years?" I asked. "For the most part, yes," he replied, "except when he's sick or in India or there's a special event happening." "He appears to be a humble Vaisnava," I thought, "one of those silent soldiers in ISKCON who carries on year after year, not wanting any recognition." "Sometimes he's out there all by himself," the devotee continued. "In Miami everyone knows him. "Year's ago he was chanting outside the Super Bowl football game, and a television crew approached him. 'Whose going to win the game?' they asked. "'Krishna,' he said with a big smile. They put that on the evening news, and he became famous." I became even more anxious to get his association. "He rarely misses a morning program as well," the devotee continued proudly. "Makes sense," I thought. "That's were he gets his taste for the holy name." "Some years ago there was a serious misunderstanding between him and the local management," the devotee continued. "The management went so far as to ban him from coming into the temple room. So you know what he did?" "No, what?" I asked. "Every single morning for two and a half years he came and watched the mangala arati from the window. He was even there during a hurricane." "When can I meet him?" I asked. "On the Harinam this afternoon," the devotee said. "We're all going down to chant at South Beach." I was the first in the van. South Beach is a hip area of restaurants and cafés stretching half a mile along the seaside. It is frequented by locals and tourists alike. Though it was a weekday when our group of 15 devotees arrived, there were plenty of people walking on the streets and sitting in the sidewalk cafés. I was hoping that Siddha-vidya would lead the kirtan, but in humility he deferred to Sri Prahlad. Sri Prahlad began to sing and play his accordion, and our kirtan party was an immediate hit. The area was full of Cubans and other Latinos, and they couldn't resist dancing to the beat. People soon began spilling out of the restaurants and dancing with us on the sidewalks. I wasn't used to such a reaction to Harinam. In Poland people smile and wave, but here people jumped right into the kirtan party. I was absorbed in the kirtan when I noticed how Siddha-vidya was interacting with the crowd. He showed no inhibition in welcoming people to join from the sidelines. Many could not resist his invitation. As we moved along the sidewalk, he waved at the groups that had gathered to watch us, and many people waved back. "Hare Krsna, Sid!" a man yelled out. "Hari Bol, fellas!" said another. I watched as Siddha-vidya shook hands with several passersby who obviously knew him. When he raised his hand and slapped a high-five with a black man, the man smiled warmly, as if an old friend. Siddha-vidya moved easily through the streets. He was in his element -giving Krsna consciousness to the people. He was a sankirtan devotee to the core. He loved the people, and they loved him too. When we came close to some rough-looking men sitting at a table with their girlfriends, I avoided getting close. But Siddha Vidya approached them with a smile and gave one of the women a maha garland from the temple Deities. The group roared with approval. I jockeyed myself to get closer to Sid. I wanted his mercy too. At one point he suddenly turned left off the sidewalk and led us directly through the doors of a big restaurant. The restaurant had just opened, and the waiters were still busy setting things up, but as soon as they saw Siddha-vidya, they dropped everything and started singing, clapping, and dancing alongside us. I stood back for a moment. "Who is he?" I thought. "Who is this devotee who inspires people to dance wildly to the sound of Krsna's holy names?" Obviously it wasn't the first time he'd been in the restaurant, but he seemed to be taking special pleasure in the fact that he had a big group of devotees with him this time and that Sri Prahlada, who was in true form, was rocking the house with the sound of the holy names. Even the bartender raised his arms in ecstasy. As we continued down the street more people whistled and hollered to get his attention. "This devotee has created a revolution of the holy names in this little corner of the world," I thought. "By diligently going out day after day, month after month, year after year, he has melted these people's hearts and started them on the path of devotion." The Harinam ended after two hours, and people smiled and waved as we drove off. It was all due to the determined efforts of Siddha-vidya to spread the glories of the holy names. tebhyo namo stu bhava varidhi jirna panka sammagna moksana vicaksana padukebhyah krsneti varna yugala sravanena yesam anandathur bhavati nartita roma vrndah "I offer my respectful obeisances to the devotees of the Lord. When they simply hear the two syllables 'Krsna,' their bodily hairs stand up in ecstasy and they become moved to dance in ecstatic bliss. With their sandals they expertly extricate the fallen souls deeply sunk in the fetid mud of the ocean of repeated birth and death." [srila Rupa Goswami's Padyavali, Text 54 by Sri Autkala] My good fortune didn't end with Harinam that day. Before my visit was over I heard another tale of wonder, attributed to the causeless mercy of the Lord. I was in the temple restaurant just about to begin my meal when I looked up and saw a man in a suit and tie enter. In the casual atmosphere he looked almost out of place in such formal clothes. Assuming he was a guest, I was about to ask a local devotee to invite him to sit with me, but when the gentleman saw me he immediately paid obeisances. Trivikrama Maharaja spoke up. "That's Murari Gupta das," he said. "He's a doctor and recently initiated by Bhakti Marg Swami." Murari Gupta came over. After exchanging pleasantries I asked how long he had been involved in Krsna consciousness. He told me that in 1973 he was 17 and attending his first semester at the University of Florida. While walking to class one afternoon, he saw Tamal Krsna Goswami preaching to some students on a lawn of the university. "The Radha Damodar Traveling festival was visiting the campus for a few days," Murari Gupta said. "Maharaja had arrived early that day, before the other devotees." "I was interested in the spiritual teachings of the East, and I had read a version of the Bhagavad Gita several times, so I was immediately attracted, seeing Maharaja standing there in saffron cloth. Although he was young at the time, he appeared elderly and wise. "Over the next three days, Tamal Krsna Maharaja spoke with me on several occasions, encouraging me to join their traveling festival. I wasn't ready, however. Nevertheless, after they left I started visiting the local Gainesville temple. Six months later I finally gave up my studies and moved into the temple. For the next six months I distributed Srila Prabhupada's books. "Then one day I left to join the Radha Damodar party. I traveled on one of the buses and continued my service of book distribution. "During the next year I was recommended twice for initiation from Srila Prabhupada, but both times I refused. It wasn't that I didn't want to take initiation. Rather, I took it as a serious commitment. I came from a well-to-do family, where my father had instilled in me the importance of accepting responsibility seriously. I wanted to be 100 percent sure that if I took my vows, I would never fail my spiritual master. "At the same time, my family was putting pressure on me to go back to school. My parents would visit me in different temples. They were respectful to Krsna consciousness but insistent that I finish my education. As a result, I was often in duality as to what I should do. "In Atlanta, in 1974, during a visit by Srila Prabhupada to the temple, I was again recommended for initiation. But once again I hesitated. I had just read an article on the importance of initiation written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, and he was firm about the loyalty of a disciple. I wasn't sure I met the criteria for being such a surrendered soul. "On the morning of the initiation I was sitting outside the temple, confused. Suddenly I saw Srila Prabhupada coming my way, returning from his morning walk, surrounded by many disciples. Srila Prabhupada seemed to sense my dilemma and spoke a few words of reassurance to me as he passed. "But just before the ceremony began, I left the temple and quickly made my way back home to Chicago. To make a long story short, I went back to school and eventually graduated with a medical degree. I was soon a practicing doctor. Later I married and had three children. "My work often took me overseas where I would visit temples incognito. Wherever I went I carried a picture of Srila Prabhupada and chanted rounds on my beads each day. But I never revealed to the devotees I met that I was a covered bhakta. I was always a guest. I considered myself a thief in the night. I would come to a temple, see the Deities, take prasadam, and get some association. But I never offered any service in return. "That all changed, however, after the terrorist attack in New York on September 11, 2001. At the time I was working in a hospital in Miami, and in the interest of national security the Florida Department of Health requested a security check on all doctors and nurses in the state. All our records and data were scrutinized, and one day I was called into the head office of the hospital. They had discovered that I had been arrested 17 times in my youth. I winced as I remembered that all those arrests were in connection with distributing books during the Radha Damodar traveling party days. "There were no convictions because the police always let us go after a verbal thrashing, but the head of the hospital did note with concern the most serious arrest: several other brahmacaris and I had dressed as soldiers to facilitate our book distribution. We had done it only once but were caught. The military became involved, but eventually dropped charges. "You can imagine how frustrated I was. I had to do a lot of explaining to the head of the hospital. But I did not want to ever be questioned again, so I called my lawyer and asked how to clear the record for good. He checked with the government and they said they would expunge all information from my records if I paid a fine of $5,000 and did 100 hours of community service. "As a doctor, it wasn't a big obstacle to pay the fine, but I couldn't imagine how I would do 100 hours of community service. Suddenly I got the idea that I could do service at the local Hare Krsna Temple. They were one of the organizations listed under authorized places for this kind of service. "I had been visiting the temple incognito, and so no one knew me when I approached the temple authorities for service. They were happy to let me serve my 100 hours in temple duties, and so several times a week I would go to the temple and wash pots. Boy, were the devotees surprised when they finally learned I was a doctor! They were even more amazed when they found out I was actually a devotee who had served on the Radha Damodhar party for a couple of years. They were kind to me, and gradually I became fully reinstated in Krsna consciousness. Eventually I became the temple treasurer. And now, of course, I'm the temple doctor. "On December 18, 2004, 32 years after meeting the devotees, I finally took initiation from His Holiness Bhakti Marg Maharaja." "I'm glad you finally made it," I said. "I wish you all success." Soon after my visit to Miami I left America for Europe. As I boarded the flight to London, I reminisced once again on the nectar of associating with devotees like Siddha-vidya and Murari Gupta. I would miss them. The only consolation was that on the other side of the ocean, I would meet more devotees, and more again wherever my travels took me. Such is the great mercy of the Lord." hari smrty ahlada stimita manaso yasya krtinah sa romancah kayah nayanam api sananda salilam tam evacandrarkam vaha purusa dhaureyam avane kim anyais tair bharair yama sadana gaty agati paraih "When the devotees remember Lord Hari, their hearts become overwhelmed with bliss, their bodily hairs stand erect, and their eyes become filled with tears of joy. O Earth, these devotees are the best of men. Please carefully maintain them for long as the sun and the moon shine in the sky. What is the use of your carefully maintaining those other burdensome persons who are simply intent on coming and going to and from the house of Yamaraja?" [Padyavali, Srila Rupa Goswami, Text 55 by Sri Sarvananda]

BELARUS: Not liquidated, but unable to meet By Geraldine Fagan, Moscow Correspondent, Forum 18 News Service Although the authorities have so far held off from closing down two religious communities eligible for liquidation under the restrictive 2002 religion law - the charismatic New Life church and the Hare Krishna community in Minsk – officials have warned both communities not to meet. "We're afraid to meet at our temple," Sergei Malakhovsky of the 200-strong Hare Krishna community told Forum 18 News Service, pointing out that constant police checks would result in "a huge fine equivalent to approximately 1,500 US dollars". New Life church and the Hare Krishna communities in Minsk and Bobruisk are among many religious communities denied compulsory re-registration and whose activity is therefore illegal. In April the pastor of an unregistered Baptist church was also fined. The Belarusian authorities appear to have stalled in their moves against the two religious organisations closest to liquidation under the country's restrictive 2002 religion law – the charismatic New Life Church and the Minsk Society for Krishna Consciousness. Nevertheless, the Minsk Society for Krishna Consciousness is currently unable to gather for worship, Sergei Malakhovsky of the community told Forum 18 News Service on 15 April. "We're afraid to meet at our temple," he explained, pointing out that constant police checks would result in "a huge fine equivalent to approximately 1,500 US dollars". A fine of this size was handed down to the administrator of New Life Church late last year for allegedly organising worship without state sanction (see F18News 29 December 2004 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=480). Like New Life, the 200-strong Hare Krishna community has been refused compulsory re-registration at its house of worship because it does not have the necessary state approval to use the building. The Minsk Hare Krishna temple is technically a free-standing residential house, although the community claims to have carried out thousands of dollars worth of improvements and alterations to the building since receiving initial registration there in 1992. The Krishna devotees who are registered as its legal occupants are currently the only people allowed to use it, Malakhovsky told Forum 18. Malakhovsky also confirmed that Minsk city administration has not taken any further action against the community since issuing two official warnings in mid-November 2004 and on 14 February 2005, even though this constitutes sufficient legal grounds for liquidation. The first warning was issued after Minsk's Central District Court found that a religious meeting had taken place at the temple without state sanction (see F18News 10 November 2004 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=450). In the second warning, a copy of which has been received by Forum 18, vice-chairman of Minsk city administration Mikhail Petrushin maintains that the community is "still situated" at the temple even though its legal appeal against the authorities' refusal to re-register it there has been rejected at all levels of the justice system. The Minsk Society for Krishna Consciousness has lodged a further appeal with the United Nations Human Rights Committee (see F18News 27 January 2005 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=500). Malakhovsky also told Forum 18 that he is unaware of any measures taken by the state authorities against the Krishna Consciousness community in Bobruisk [babruysk], which has also been refused re-registration (see F18News 27 January 2005 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=500). Speaking to Forum 18 on 10 May, Vasili Yurevich, the administrator of New Life Church, also said that the state authorities have taken no further action against the congregation since Minsk city administration issued its second warning to the church on 4 April (see F18News 8 April 2005 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=540). So far this year the Council of Churches Baptists – who refuse on principle to register with the state authorities in CIS countries – has documented only one fine against its member congregations in Belarus for conducting unregistered worship. Such incidents were more frequent in 2003-4 (see F18News 3 February 2004 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=243 and 17 February 2004 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=255). On 26 April the association reported that 75-year-old Pastor Yevgeni Shishko refused to pay a fine of 75,000 Belarusian roubles (218 Norwegian kroner, 27 Euros or 35 US dollars) handed down to him on 21 April by a district court in the western city of Brest for leading an unregistered religious organisation. Pastor Shishko confirmed to Forum 18 on 5 May that he had been leading a worship service in a private house on 28 February when a local policeman called and drew up a statement against him (leadership of an unregistered religious organisation is an administrative offence in Belarus). Sounding unconcerned, he stressed that he had encountered neither trouble nor further demands from the authorities since refusing to pay. While Pastor Vladimir Gritsuk of an autonomous Baptist congregation in Bereza (Brest region) was similarly handed down a fine of 240,000 Belarusian roubles (698 Norwegian kroner, 86 Euros or 111 US dollars) for leading an unregistered religious organisation on 9 February 2005, this is "no longer relevant", Pastor Vladimir Zdanevich of a sister autonomous congregation in Brest told Forum 18 on 5 May. The two congregations are among five in Brest region who have roots in the Council of Churches Baptists association but who accepted state registration in the 1980s on condition of autonomy. The five had had their re-registration applications returned to them after refusing to accept a provision in the 2002 religion law stipulating that a religious organisation may function only within the limit of the territory upon which it is registered, such as a city or group of villages (see F18News 27 January 2005 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=500). However, all five were finally re-registered in late April with charters stipulating that the territory for their religious activity is unlimited, Zdanevich told Forum 18. "The charters were registered in the form we wanted – God has shown us great mercy." For more background information see Forum 18's Belarus religious freedom survey at http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=478 A printer-friendly map of Belarus is available at http://www.nationalgeographic.com/xpeditions/atlas/index.html?Parent=europe&Rootmap=belaru

"You seem to have changed your tone a little." "So what youre trying to say now? is that she shloka is made up?" This is a response to a letter I wrote to someone who translated and studied various scriptures for his phd. Its not my opinion its his. From what I can see he has not dismissed it and has given a history and a process to verify verses (which isnt easy as most think). Everyone is entitled to believe in what they like, our beliefs and the consequences of them is our responsibility. Hare Krishna

This is the response i got from the person I wrote to, he has a phd in sanskrit and done his thesis on translating sanskrit texts, I've left his name out as I dont have his permission to use his name. Let me describe the process and problems behind >verifying such verses in the Puranas. > >You see, the difficulty with quotations from the >Puranas, and especially the Padma and Skanda Puranas, >is this: both of these Puranas are very large and >amorphous texts. Over the centuries, they were copied >and recopied by hand, and for many different reasons, >changes and additions were introduced. Sometimes >scribes would make accidental mistakes, sometimes they >would correct a previous scribe's mistakes, sometimes >they would add verses, and sometimes delete. This is >all due to the frailties of the human being and not >due any weakness in the scriptures themselves. In any >case, due to this phenomenen, there are usually many >different versions of any ancient text, as different >manuscript lines develop in different regions of >India. There are many different recensions of the same >text, and whenever someone wants to prove a particular >point, they usually quote a verse ascribed to them. >However, it is usually very difficult to locate the >verses, and without verse numbers, it is virtually >impossible. In order to prove the verses are >authentic, one would not only have to point out the >verse in a printed (modern) edition of the text, but >also go back into the handwritten manuscript >tradition. Here is why: a printed edition can easily >have come from just one old manuscript. A single >manuscript can easily differ from other manuscripts >and include verses that are not found in other >manuscripts. The real test of authenticity is to able >to show that a particular verse is found across the >board in a range of different old manuscripts from >different regions. > >What I am describing above is by no means meant to >question the integrity of the devotees of Swaminarayan >or the authenticity of the verses. This is simply >common scholarly knowledge that to trace verses in >Puranic literature, especially the Skanda and Padma >Purana, is by no means easy. It is for this reason >that I have not made the effort to search for these >verses myself. > >Actually, for the Skanda Purana, a critical edition >has recently been published. A critical edition takes >into account all the different manuscripts and gives >the differences and then tries to work back to the >original text as it was. If a verse can be found in >the critical edition, then it has a good chance of >being authentic. > >Once the authenticity of a verse has been established, >the next step is to read the Sanskrit in the context >of the original passage and see whether there are >other ways to interpret the verse. It is the >commentator's job to establish that his interpretation >of the verse is the most reliable. > >The first quote about Akshardham from the Skanda >Purana is a good example of this: Here Lord Vasudeva >simply says that that He has an imperishable (akshara) >abode (dhama), where He eternally lives in the company >of Srimati Radharani and Lakshmi devi. This is clearly >a reference to Lord Krishna's abode. Lord Krishna >confirms in Bhagavad-gita also that His dhama is >imperishable. > >Basically, I don't think that there is much point in >arguing about these verses. The the fact is that if >you already believe that Sri Swaminarayan is God, then >you will find these quotations convincing, otherwise >not. The best thing is simply to faithfully follow >one's particular sampradaya and regard members of >other sampradayas with respect. >

No not yet, have written a letter to someone I know at oxford hindu studies, hopefully thay have a copy or now of something about it. The skand purana is also very big infact the biggest purana

Guests, "The other thing is that Lord Swaminarayan didnt create havoc and evil. So why proclaim that HE CANNOT BE GOD? " As you know many people make claims that they are god, and they do good social work etc. I have throughtout my discussion with you said why your claims and evidence holds no water if they dont, apart from sastra which you have given me evidence of and I will need to check out. Im sorry if you feel offended by such questioning however it is important to question as then the other person will realise he may be following blindly if he hasnt got reasons of why he follows, and if he does find out the answers to questions then his faith will become stronger as well as the other person gaining some insight. Unfortunately bhudhi and sastra is all we have and intelligence has to be based on sastra, if someone feels offended by their faith being questioned then they shouldnt declare their faith on a discussion board. Religion based on sentiment is cheap and worst it becomes fanatisism. Over the past thousands of years doctrines have been debated, ramunuja with sankarcharya, madhvas vs nimbarkas etc, this has allowed greater understanding of philosophical concepts of god tested with intelligence and logic. This is why today india has very sophisticated philosophy system, it wasnt that you believe what you want and i believe what i want and lets not question each other as its offencive. With attudes like that vedic concepts would never of been expanded as they are today. Emotional outbursts and name calling in a debate reveals the actual conciousness of a person. Narrow mindedness is both blind faith and blind doubting.

Im sure there must be a copy of the skand puran more than 200 years old so dont see how all copies of it can be adulterated. If only one out of 10 skand puran have the prediction then may be but if all then i wouldnt say its adulterated. Just need to make sure the translation is as definate as you say it is. If so I will get off you case (-: Hare Krsna

I know some of them from the vayu purana arent there as these were quoted by jiva goswami in the midst of pandits and at the time were not disputed however it seems to of been taken out now, as puranas were published in the last 100 or so years by putting together manuscripts from various places having said that i have personally seen in copies of the bhavishya puran the predictions of mahaprabhu meeting the various acaryas. If you want I can find these out straight away and they are very direct.

Sorry prabhu i just saw the 'It' signature at the bottom it was a mistake, im not that humble yet (-:

some **very** inspirational quotes on controlling the mind...read on: MAGICALLY MERCIFUL MESSAGES 1. The mind is like a bird and flies here and there on two wings. One is the wing of the past, and the other the future. The mind is always thinking of the past or speculating about the future but very rarely is it fixed on the present. We must put the bird of the mind in a cage and train it to think only of Krsna and devotional service. Chant, Chant, Chant. Get the bird of the mind to stay in one place, the present, and chant Hare Krsna. 2. Real devotional service begins when the mind is brought under control. Chant attentively, control the mind, and desire to perform actual devotional service 3. Whoever worships Lord Nityananda's lotus feet and remembers them, breaks all obstacles into pieces. Jaya Nita! Jaya Goura the mater of Nitai 4. Please take shelter of the merciful Sri Nityananda and very soon all material desires and affections will be gone. By Nitai's mercy all obstacles can be overcome. So take him as your Lord and master. Make Him your dearest friend and take Him into your heart. By His sweet mercy the highest prema is very easily attained. Go get Nita, He wants you. Gouranga. Be a simple devotee, just serve and chant. 5. Whatever you do is kept in the mind and will come back to you some time in the future. So whatever you think of or do will disturb you in future. Think Krsna. 6. One must perform ones duty whether it's difficult or even distasteful to us. We should not act according to the direction of the mind that leads to hell. 7. We should always try our best to make sure that all our acts and words are authorized and are accepted by spiritual authority, otherwise it is material independence, and that leads to suffering in this world. Do not trust the mind and your feelings. Act according to spiritual authority if you want to get free from karma and go home to Krsna. Act according to guru, sastra, and sadhu, not Mind, I feel, I do!!! Gouranga chant and be bona fide bbpg 8. Try today to be more Krsna Conscious than ever before. Be very positive in controlling the mind. Don't talk of useless things. Chant and pray more. 9. Never be surprised at what happens in this world. Always expect the unexpected. Chant Hare Krsna at all times and keep the mind steady. 10. Gouranga! Never speak badly of devotees at any time. Try to see the good in everyone and keep the mind under control. Everyone has faults. 11. Don't be a slave to the body. Don't be a slave to the mind. Follow guru, sastra and sadhu. Leave material slavery far behind. Go home to Krsna. 12. Always be positive in your Krsna consciousness. Never let negativity take over your mind. Negativity is maya. Always do what is pleasing to Krsna. 13. To control the mind is more difficult than controlling the raging wind. But it is possible by constant detachment and attentive hearing and chanting about Krsna 14. Don't try to control the mind by fighting with it that still keeps you thinking of what the mind says. Take shelter of hearing, chanting and remembering Krsna 15. The mind can be the best friend or the worst enemy. If we feel fear, then the mind is still the enemy. Take full shelter of the holy name for freedom from fear 16. Ignore the mind, just hear about and chant Krsna's glories, then in due time the mind will be controlled. Fighting with the mind makes us the loser. 17. Meditation is the function of the mind. Until the mind is purified and spiritualized, meditation can never become spiritual. Hear and chant, purify the mind. 18. Happiness and distress is both temporary and are evaluated by the mind. We are all spirit not mind. The maha-mantra will control the mind when chanted without offense. 19. Thinking, feelings, willing is the three qualities of the mind. But we should act according to guru, sastra, sadhu, not just how we feel or think. Chant it is the safest. ***** The so-called pandits, materialistic scholars, are actually full of confusion inside. Their very knowledge is a disturbance. Their minds are continuously chattering deep within. They may be reciting scriptures, shastras, but that makes no difference. What is going on inside is of no value. Unless one is absolutely silent, with complete contemplation - not even a single wandering thought stirring inside - one can not begin to hear. People have ears, hence they believe they are capable of hearing. It is true that they are not deaf, but behind their ears their minds are toiling to interpret, to compare, to analyse, to argue, and to doubt. In the process everything gets lost in the dark depths of the whirlpool of confusion. If one can simply hear the word or sound in complete absorption there will be no disturbance. It deepens one's silence. It is the beginning of realization, for true silence means to hear the soul: maunam atma-vimarshanam "Silence is research into the self." manah-prasadah saumyatvam maunam atma-vinigrahah bhava-samsuddhir ity etat tapo manasam ucyate "Serenity, simplicity, silence, self-control and purity of thought are the austerities of the mind."

QUOTE And that Krshna IS Swaminarayan dont u see? Do ppl on this board have a fundamental difficulty in comprehending the most simplest of ideas....defeats the objective of this forum doesn't it? REPLY Unfortunately the point you keep asserting needs to be proved by sastra all the quotes predicting swaminaryan from bhagvatam proved to be untrue given by the swaminaryan guys, The quotes given from the skand purana I need the sanskrit or the verses with diacritcs as its impossible to translate without it, or better still I assume the swaminaryanas have a copy of the vasudeva mahatmaya as its one of the 6 recomended books to read according to the shikshapatri so please advise me where to buy it from if possible. Until this is not sorted out merely saying swaminarayan is krishna bears no fruit in a discussion. Hare Krishna

I heard a lecture by srila prabhupada that in an ideal vedic monoracy the king has a duty to make sure the subjects follow god. Then a diciple asked what about if the are christian, srila prabhupada said we should encourage them, but they have to follow properly not eating meat etc. Then the diciple asked what about the bhudists, srila prabhupada said they should be rectified to follow god, then the diciple asked about atheists, srila prabhupada said they should be forced to follow god, the king should somehow make sure like a loving father sends the child to be educated by force even if he doesnt want to be educated. Then the diciple says then where is the freedom, even the animals are free and we give athiests less opertunity than the animals, srila prabhupada said animals in the kingdom who cause a disturbance do not remain in the kingdom they are driven out. This is just off the top of my memory so full of faults but this was the general gist. It

QUOTE Perhaps conveniently missed out a response to this??: Also note: “nanvastan sri krshnasya parabrahmatvam moolpurushsya bhagavatastu krshnashabda vachyatvam na ghatate. Dvaaparante devaki vasudevabhyam avirbhavantaram krshnam prvrtti siddheriti chettann. Vasudev gruh aavirbhaavatpragev bhagavataha krshnakhyatve sakalam brahmvaivarta puran mev pramanam”. Shatananda Muni as a commentary to Shikshapatri Shlok 29. THE ETERNAL KRSHNA THOUGH IS THE PARABRAHMA BUT THE NAME DOES NOT SUIT MOOLPURUSH (ORIGINAL CAUSAL PERSONALITY) BECAUSE THE GOD (AS MOOL PURUSH) MANIFESTED AT THE END OF DWAPARA TO DEVAKI AND VASUDEV AND THEN GARGACHARYA NAMED HIM ‘KRSHNA’. NOTE, THAT AFTER THE BIRTH OF GOD TO DHARMADEV AND BHAKTIDEVI, MARKANDEY RUSHI NAMED HIM KRSHNA (AS WELL AS HARI AND HARIKRSHNA). THEREFORE WHOEVER SAYS THAT THE NAME ‘KRSHNA’ BECAME PREVALENT AFTER HIS ARRIVAL (IN MATHURA AT THE END OF DWAPARA TO VASUDEV AND DEVAKI) IS NOT RIGHT IN DOING SO, BECAUSE GOD'S ETERNAL NAME IS KRSHNA (ALL ATTRACTIVE) AND EVEN BEFORE MANIFESTING TO VASUDEV AND DEVAKI BRAHMVAIVARTA PURAN USES THE TERM KRSHNA MANY TIMES OVER. 'Krishna' of Gokul/Vrndavan/Mathura/Dwarika alone does not have monopoly over Gods eternal names which include Krshna, Narayan, Brahm, Par-Brahm etc. REPLY Ive already explained krishnas name exist eternally as he is eternal, avtars are eternal, BUT THE NAMES HAVE TO BE ATHORISED IN SASTRA IN WHICH THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE SWAMINARAYAN MAHA MANTRA. Is that clear enough?

Can you give the transliteration of the verse you gave me with diacritc marks or the original sanskrit, as I've had problems getting the skand purana as its one of the biggest puranas in terms of size. And if i get the transliteration i can show it to someone who knows sanskrit properly to find out if its you have valid translation. Also i guess as Vasudev-mahatmya,Vishnukhand of Skand Puran is one of the 6 books recomended in the shikshapatri to read could you advise me of where to purchase a copy english-sanskrit if possible. I would like to get to the bottom of this.