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Everything posted by vijay

  1. Thanks for that Kulapavana Prabhu, do you know of any references where I can find out more about this place? The original article mentioned one or 2 places about how this abode may be within the maha tatva, but would be nice to find out more.
  2. Sorry for bringing up this topic, A few devotees have bought these verses to my attention, some of you might have already seen these verses. Has anyone got a transliterated copy of these verses? Also if some one has got a wider context of verses before and after would be helpful too. Thanks, YS Vijay http://www.trsiyengar.com/id84.shtml In one of the letters in this conference, it was said that only ISKCON has the philosophy of the soul originally falling from Krishna-lila in the spiritual world. What is the origin of the souls the material or the spiritual world or in other words, did we were before our material existence in this material world with the Supreme Personality of Godhead or somewhere else is an interesting topic that is discussed in many religions. Here are some quotes to be considered from the Padma purana that suggest fall-down from the spiritual world. In the next essay we will give the rest of the slokas from the Padma purana on this subject. And later on from the other sattvika puranas. 1.15.228 ..he goes to Visnu's (the Supreme of all Deities) world and fallen from Visnu's world he goes to Rudraloka and fallen from that place also he is born in the various divisions of the world. NOTE: Visnu's world is not temporary as the planet of the demigods. Later on we read "it is beyond the darkness of maya, it is eternal, beyond all miseries". 1.20.53 One who donates to a brahmana and garlands the Lord saying "my Lord Pradyumna be pleased" will live in the city of Visnu for a kalpa. 1.20.93 .one who is performing this tapasya in the month of Visnu and giving a cow to a brahmana, he stays for a kalpa at the place of Visnu. 1.20.98 .one who is doing this tapasya he goes to the highest position from which return is difficult. This is called Suvrata, having done which rebirth is not easy. 1.20.111 One who does Laksmi-vrata will live for a kalpa in the world of Laksmi. 1.21.75 Performing vishaka dvadasi vrata, (elaborately described before) fasting removes all sins. On death he reaches Visnu's or Keshava's city and his recollection of Hari, the enemy of the demons Madhu, Mura and Naraka for years. 1.21.154 give a mountain of sesame, 140, 70 or 42 kg to a brahmana to be used in Yajna along with the rite (described before) goes to the abode of Visnu, the murderer of Madhu from which return (rebirth) is difficult. 1.21.180 give a mountain of 1000, 500 or 300 pearls (with elaborate rites, described) to a brahmana goes for 100 kalpas to Visnu's world. 1.21.206 give mountain of 1000 or 400 kg sugar with rite to priests, goes to Brahmaloka. Then getting into an aeroplane shining like Moon and Sun he would rise from there and go to the heaven of Lord Visnu for 100 kalpas. 1.24 worship Govinda with singing and musical instruments, pray. Donate cows, gold etc.etc. with rites is honoured in Visnu's world for thousands and hundreds of kalpas. 1.27.59 The pure one, performing the religious deeds (elaborately described in 5 verses) goes to Brahmaloka for many kalpas. Moving in many worlds for 2 parardhas (lifetime of Brahma), he again goes to Visnu's abode obtainable by the power of deep and abstract meditation. 1.52.49 (After descriptions of sins and hells). Brahmana: how to become free from the reactions of such bad deeds. Lord (Visnu, Keshava or Hari) said: leave householder's life, always loudly chant My name Govinda an worship Me. All sins perish as cotton or may perish in contact with fire. He will live for a long time in My City. Then he becomes an emperor after having lived in My house according to his desire. 1.57.16 Vyasadeva: give or construct a water tank (large artificial reservoir for storing water) measuring 20 cubits, go to Visnu's Abode. Afterwards born as king or wealthy man or orator. 1.57.17 if measures 1000 cubits, he doesn't fall from Visnu's heaven. All his sins will be destroyed. 1.57.44 and will obtain the auspicious salvation. 1.58 King constructed bridges, dug wells, planted trees did Yajna, Dana and Tapah. Again before Yama's assembly.Citragupta.."go to Visnu's Abode". Aeroplane came, went to Visnu's heaven, the great heaven from which returning is difficult. 2.4.1 Goloka, the Heaven of Visnu, beyond darkness, the world of salvation. 2.22.25 Suvrata: O Krsna, O Lord Murari, always sprinkle me with water of knowledge, me - who have fallen in the great ditch covered with fearful darkness called Samsara. 2.98.65 With devotion I Salute the good excellent sanctifying couple of Feet of Vasudeva, Bhagavan who is the affectionate Emancipator of him who has fallen into the great Ocean of the worldly existence. 2.120.33 The soul bound by faults is taken to the worldly existence. 2.121.3 Tulasi: "Listen O Narada, for what reason does My Lord, the Master of the world go to the wordly existence"? A man who is bound by sinful and even meritorious acts moves to the worldly existence. O brahmana, tell me why Visnu would go to worldly existence. 2.125.4 In Treta Yuga men listened to the Padma purana and enjoying the fruit of the 4 goals of life, Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha they would again reach Visnu. 3.18.62 (..many bhakti-sukrtis..) then going to Visnu's heaven, he is full of sport and enjoyments. Having enjoyed great pleasures there, he is born as a king in the mortal world. 3.31.126 He who devotedly worships a 100 Saligrama Sila will after living with Visnu in Visnu's heaven, then born as a sovereign emperor here on earth. ..if with joy worship Visnu's Salagrama stone doesn't fall from heaven till deluge. 3.31.132 human, highly devoted, in Kali-yuga worship Salagrama-silas by offering eatables, flowers, incense, lights, ointments, song, musical instruments, hymns rejoices in Visnu's company (salvation) for a 1000 crores of kalpas. 4.2.4 .one who cleanses with water the temple of the Lord, lives in Visnu's abode for as many thousands of kalpas as dust particles one removes. 4.2 thief sinner before Yamaraja. Citragupta spoke "Committed all the sins Creator created on earth. Once stole from temple, entered temple put feet dirty with mud on ground (stamped): ground free from slope, holes and pits. Saluted Radha Krsna Murti lying sleeping on a bed, thereby free from all sin. Then he discussed with the Deity "shall I steal or not? I am all time thief, I cannot serve Lord, let me steal". Krsna's maya (magic) and his trembling hands caused jewels etc. fall with too loud noise on the floor, nearly caught, fled. bitten by cobra, died.go to Visnu's excellent Abode, lived there for long time as many 1000 kalpas as dust/mud particles he had thrown down from his feet. 4.3 Rat came to eat ghee of lamp offered before Visnu, Krsna, Damodara in Kartika month. It started eating and moved up the ghee. So, the lamp burnt more brightly. Out of fear the rat ran away. It had revived lamp in front of Visnu; sins of crores of previous existences perished. Went from ocean of mundane existence for a hundred ages of Manus to the world of cows, in Visnu's proximity. Then princess here. Then back again. 4.11.20 Laksmi-Narayana, worship 4 consecutive thursdays in Margashirsha month (offer sweets, prayers, presents). Live in Laksmi's city for so many 1000's of kalpas as many times the worship is practiced. 4.12.62 He who protects brahmanas by giving his life and wealth goes to Visnu's Abode, from which a return (to the mortal world) is difficult to have. 4.15.43 husband and wife keep Ekadasi fast (incl. stay awake at night etc.) stay together for long time in Visnu's Abode. 4.16.16 offer with devotion cowries (shell, money/ornament) to the Deity will live in Hari's abode for as many days as number of cowries offered. COMMENTS: Srila Prabhupada in the purport to the Srimad Bhagavatam 8.5.5 writes: "As described in the Second Canto, Lord Brahma saw Vaikuntha before the creation of the universe. Viraraghava Acarya mentions that this Vaikuntha is within the universe. It is situated above the mountain known as Lokaloka. This planet is worshiped by everyone". The following slokas describe this Vaikuntha. SB 2.9.9: His personal abode, Vaikuntha, the supreme planet above all others. This transcendental abode of the Lord is adored by all self-realized persons freed from all kinds of miseries and fear of illusory existence. SB 2.9.10: In that personal abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail, nor is there any of their influence in goodness. There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy; it cannot enter that region. SB 2.9.11: The inhabitants of the Vaikuntha planets are described as having a glowing sky-bluish complexion. Their eyes resemble lotus flowers, their dress is of yellowish color, and their bodily features very attractive. They are just the age of growing youths, they all have four hands, they are all nicely decorated with pearl necklaces with ornamental medallions, and they all appear to be effulgent. SB 2.9.12: Some of them are effulgent like coral and diamonds in complexion and have garlands on their heads, blooming like lotus flowers, and some wear earrings. Now, just as the living entity can fall down again from the transcendental abode of Vaikuntha of this material world although Visnu Himself is there and many liberated sages and devotees, similarly one can fall down from the transcendental abode of Visnu or Krishna in the spiritual world. In this regard Sanatana Gosvami describes in the Sri Brhad-bhagavatamrta that as one goes up in the material and spiritual world, the forms of Krishna become transcendentally more opulent and attractive, in other words increasingly less chance of falling down. If one goes back to Visnuloka situated within the Mahat tattva two things can happen. 1) One can come back again to the material planets. Taking birth at or close to a holy place of Vishnu or Krishna in this earthly planet from where he will go back to either Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrindavana beyond the mahat-tattva. 2) One can go from the Visnuloka within this mahat-tattva to the Visnuloka of the spiritual world beyond the mahat-tattva. The Visnuloka is in some ways like the bhauma Vrindavana for Krishna bhaktas, an intermediate place before attainment of the highest abode. Compiled by Sri Sri Nitai Das Prabhu
  3. You have some good reasoning, I have also had similar doubts that you have had after not feeling anything on the path for many years. You are correct that its not the same for everyone as everyone has different conditionings. Krsna says that obtaining bhakti is very rare even though its easy to obtain if one is sincere. Therefore there are many paths Krsna mentions for different types of mind sets, eg karma, jnanna, yoga etc. As theist mentions one must do this under guidance. As in any non trival process one needs a guide, becoming a doctor, learning at university etc etc. Ones own mind is insufficient, one who has seen the truth can guide someone from kindergarten stage to his own stage without this learning from just books is prone to obscuring the real meaning through the filter of the mind which we can not see we are doing. There are many texts available however the highest goal is for you to decide. The different paths can take you to different places as the goal may be different. Even with spiritual life all who get the highest realisation describe being completely intensely in love with krsna completely satisfied and unattached to anything material as a consequence, manifesting physical symptoms, aswell as claiming to have contact with krsna face to face even while living in this body. They tell of their experineces and it can be analysed with others who currently and in the past describe the same symptoms. It can be argued that this can be a make believe, just like if people came back and said they visted australia and said they have been. We can only verify the claims to the degree we know the details of australia. So in the scriptures there are details of what someones conciousness and behaviour is and then we can co-oberate this with others in the past who have claimed to have achived this and others that claim it now. And to the degree we have traversed the journey and noticed certain things to that degree we can verify the claims of others. This is usually what happens and happened to me as our initial faith is dishonest and blind we have our own sentimental conception of faith, therefore as thiest prabhu said our faith has to be checked by a profesor expert in this art a guru. He should be able to explain the next stage above you and you be able to understand and progress. Just like if we know 2+2 then we can understand the next stage which is multiplication, but not yet calculus. So as a crude example a guru can explain to you the difference between the mind, intelligence and conciousness. Once we realise we are the conciousness and not our thoughts (we are the observer of our thoughts the guru recomends practices in which we can actually realise this) then we can start to comprehend the supreme conciousness krsna. Until then our faith is blind towards krsna as we dont even know who we are (the soul\conciousness) let alone krsna. This is the same point about guru. Guru meaning as krsna says in the gita, humbily approach someone who has seen the truth. He can guide you step by step. The question then comes to how do you know who can guide you. As krsna says according to our sincerity krsna gives us a guru to the degree we are insincire we get cheated. However I found that I questioned my siksha gurus intensely and practiced what they said, initially i was sceptical as my mind and intelligence is an overwhelming factor i questioned and eventually got answers according to what I could comprehend. As the mind and intelligence is trained in a certain way through different practices of devotional life we begin to understand more and more subtle concepts which arent based on faith. A crude example is drug addict may not be able to comprehend the pleasure which one derives from giving in charity or being principled, however with guidance he gains understanding then experience of more and more higher and subtler concepts and pleasures. So in the same way our intelligence is corse and it needs to be refined. Not based on sentimental faith but faith based on knowledge. Hope that helps in some way. Gauranaga
  4. Similar to what Kulapavan prabhu said, from my understanding we are all very limited in understanding and experience so any higher knowledge even in day to day life has to be accepted on faith, not just on religious matters. From choosing a university or believing in a place called australia to accepting a road map, we need initial faith based on a resonable amount of evidence, eg other people have used the university, been to australia, or used the road map and vouch for it. Sabda = authority (Follow the road map it will get you to London) Anuman = Logic (It looks like its working the first few streets where correct, the direction seems to be as told by others - let me carry on - faith builds) Pratyaksha = Direct sense perception (I've arrived in London) Same thing with going to australia, there is no way we can prove to you australia exists, even if you see it on tv and others say they have been, only when we follow instructions to get there and finally arrive there do we actually realise australia. In the same way. Others claim to of seen god face to face, there are books describing how to get to him. We may not believe everything initially as it doesnt make sense to us, but as we progress we realise that it works, same with mathematics initially we can understand that 2+2 =4 works and its logical and we can easily use exapmles to understand, but calculus seems far fetched and abstract, but once we continue on the path it becomes more understandable. From a faith based understanding eg. 2+2=4 to a logical, making sense understanding and when we implement it to a direct sense perception understanding eg when we use apples or something. In terms of which religions to use. like anthing else initial research is required before choosing a university. So if our aim is to know god which religions teach this, and how effectively. Just like in a pharmacy there may be many brands of medicine with slightly different ingredients to tackle the flu, people will choose them based on different criteria's but all have the same active ingredient. Ie to know god. For me I came to Krishna conciousness as it made more sense to me as it gave me more depth than other religions I narrowed down my search using certain criterias like it must be able to answer certain questions. eg why are people born differently etc, and so I accepted reincarnation backed up by other pieces of evidence like ian stevensons research into child memories and birth marks. In Krsna conciousness I saw a step by step process like a road map which shows the signs that one has as he gets higher and higher levels of conciousness in a detailed manner, (Scriptures like madhurya Kadambini and Nector of devotion). To the point where you see Krsna face to face. The science is of elevating your conciousness to the point we realise we are not this body and we are conected in loving servcie to the Lord. Just like in every day life when we are selfish we feel a certain type of conciousness and when we give to others we feel a different type of conciousness. Some people are more sensitive to others as they are more concious of other entities suffering, others are more self centered so less concious to their suffering, so the science is of becoming concious and cleaning the conciousness as to be aware and eventually to be able to see god face to face. As with all things the taste is in the pudding. We may try different processes and in the trial and error we become more aware of what works for us, we usually dont move up in a straight line.
  5. I thank theist prabhu for changing my understanding in a previous debate. Although I still have milk occasionally I've reduced it, and will try and stop eventually, im much more concious about giving to cow protection projects now and repenting when i do drink milk. If this was slavery of blacks or jews who were treated in a similar fashion we would boycott any product by them even if they would be killed anyway. If these were our 'real' human mothers who were used for milk and then killed we would be outraged and would not even try to justify using that milk or product. It seems that we are desensitised to these things from a young age. A child seeing a cow being killed would generally feel empathy and become vegetarian, a child seeing how a cow is treated when milked and then to see its calf killed and then it killed would feel empathy, however we like many other things have become dulled to it.
  6. Haribol prabhu I think the author may of been Mahatma prabhu (ACBVP) not Bhakticaru Swami. Heres a link I found http://www.prabhupada.org/rama/?p=4187 Vijay
  7. Its interesting, I guess i'll have to wait until and if i get there. Didnt realize bramha samhita was translated by someone else have you got a link for more info?
  8. As far as im aware the translation is by Bhaktisidhanta saraswati takhur and still needs to be explained as he's realisation of it is expresssed in the translation. He says "where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment." That seems to me to be saying there is no past or future in goloka ?
  9. You initially said "if there is eternal time, then there must be a past and a future... time divides things as past, present and future." It says below "where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a very few self-realized souls in this world." http://vedabase.net/bs/5/56/en So how do you reconcile all of these statements so they are all true?
  10. As thiest prabhu said no use speculating. Wait until one realizes he is not the body. "where there is eternal existence of transcendental time, who is ever present and without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment. That realm is known as Goloka only to a very few self-realized souls in this world." http://vedabase.net/bs/5/56/en
  11. All glories to Puru prabhu, I am grateful that I had access to such a senior devotee through this forum, I have learnt many new ways of thinking and feeling through debate and discussions, I beg forgiveness for all the offences I have caused, I also beg for forgiveness from all the other devotees I may have caused offense before it is too late, including babhru prabhu, thiest prabhu, Jahnava Nitai prabhu, Kalpuvan Prabhu and many others who my kanishta attitude may of offended. All glories to the vaishnavas.
  12. 43 Dharmadeva tada murtau, narnarayanatmana Pravrte-pi kalau Brahman! Bhutvaham samago dvijaha 44 Munishapannrutam praptam, sarshim janakaatmanaha Tato-vita gurubhyoham saddharmam sthapayannaja Swaminarayan translation: (one version) 43 From Dharma-deva, then, from the devotee, I, Narayan-muni, shall take birth on this earth, in the land of Kosala, indeed, as a brahma, a singer of the Sama Veda. 44 O Brahma, when cursed by a muni, some rsis take birth as human beings, I will protect them from the demons and I will establish the principles of religion. Someone pointed out that the actual nar-naryana rishi's farthers name was also Dharma and his mothers name was Murti. Bhagavatam. 1.3.9 TRANSLATION In the fourth incarnation, the Lord became Nara and Näräyaëa, the twin sons of the wife of King Dharma. Thus He undertook severe and exemplary penances to control the senses. Bhagvatam 2.7.6 dharmasya—of Dharma (the controller of religious principles); dakña—Dakña, one of the Prajäpatis; duhitari—unto the daughter; ajaniñöa—took birth; mürtyäm—of the name Mürti; näräyaëaù—Näräyaëa; naraù—Nara; iti—thus; sva-tapaù—personal penances; prabhävaù—strength; dåñövä—by seeing; ätmanaù—of His own; bhagavataù—of the Personality of Godhead; niyama-avalopam—breaking the vow; devyaù—celestial beauties; tu—but; anaìga-påtanäù—companion of Cupid; ghaöitum—to happen; na—never; çekuù—made possible. TRANSLATION To exhibit His personal way of austerity and penance, He appeared in twin forms as Näräyaëa and Nara in the womb of Mürti, the wife of Dharma and the daughter of Dakña. Celestial beauties, the companions of Cupid, went to try to break His vows, but they were unsuccessful, for they saw that many beauties like them were emanating from Him, the Personality of Godhead. SB 7.11.7 Lord Näräyaëa, along with His partial manifestation Nara, appeared in this world through the daughter of Dakña Mahäräja known as Mürti. He was begotten by Dharma Mahäräja for the benefit of all living entities. Even now, He is still engaged in executing great austerities near the place known as Badarikäçrama. Its safe to assume that this verse in skanda purana is also talking about Nar-naryana rishi as this is consistent with hundreds of verses talking about them. If this is assumed to be talking about sahjananda swami then there needs to be strong reason to assume him in this verse when it seems to fit nar-naryana rishi naturally.
  13. Quote: <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">I dont see how anyone can destroy anyones spiritual life if the follower is genuine. This hate or blame mentality that people carry is baggage, and shows that they do not trust krsna's system nor understand it even though posing as scholors. </td></tr></tbody></table> You quoted me on the above, the above doesnt mean that we do nothing about someone who violates the law, but you have to atleast philosophically accept that lord krishna is in charge, and gives us what we deserve and desire that doesnt mean not doing our duty. I've never denied they have done atrocious things, your claim was that any good they have done is wiped because you say so. Now if that gets on your nerves so much then you have the problem. The point is that if you educate the masses they will stop going to people like kirtananda. No one is saying that if you have evidence against kirtananda dont use it or dont warn anyone about it, but moaning about it after the event has little use. Where did i say no one can say that he is molesting a child? Look at the whole quote and not just what you want to see! Its about your claim that they did no good what so ever! Same as above! Anger has really clouded you and thats the danger the pendulium swings one way then the other. Extra sentence at the end of it. You must of read gita where anger clouds intellegence right? The point is that you cant demand that soemones conditioning disappears, work on your own one. (That doesnt mean you cant do your duty by reporting or warning someone about a molester) Add context to it the next line was You need to read it together rather than line by line and twisting your own meanings out of what I've said. I guess you can always write letters and tell the police if you have anything if you cant do that then you can shout about it on a bulliten board etc etc. But as prabhupada said the ultimate cure for material suffering is to become Krishna concious and make others Krishna concious you can riddicule that as impractical but i feel thats the only real thing that will save anyone. Well then if a pure devotee or near pure devotee cant clean up the movement or us becoming pure wont help, then whats the solution, is their anything more potent than that you have up your sleave? My full quote What im talking about is people feeling hurt and thus sitting infront of their PC's deciding punishments, living 'in their ideal world'. If you have some sound contribution to make to help lock someone up then make it, but fantasising about how it could of been and should of been is a waste of time. I see so many people old and young talking about this sort of stuff some out of hate and anger others out of some political need to justify their actions not to surrender to anyone, others just so they can blame everyone else for their downfall in bhakti except themselves. A few actually try and learn form the past in a construictive way. Thats the danger i see. (This doesnt mean that you dont report a molester!)
  14. Because he falls down from brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Kåñëa. I agree there are a few places in that essay that he seems to give a qualification to lila and doesnt answer directly. There is also another letter I remember where prabhupada is asked a straight question whether we have seen krsna before and prabhupada says yes, just like how the son sees the father during conception or something like that. Its all a bit tricky we didnt come from brahmasayujya, neither vaikuntha, we are dreaming somewhere and we were injected too.
  15. I dont see how anyone can destroy anyones spiritual life if the follower is genuine. This hate or blame mentality that people carry is baggage, and shows that they do not trust krsna's system nor understand it even though posing as scholors. The ONLY way we can help others is by educating them and being examples ourselves. I dont see how anyone is in a postition to say that x person did no spiritual good and even if he did its out weighed by x,y,z. Person K should of done this and that. Only Krsna and guru know for certain, we just speculate according to the emotions or condionings we have quoting certain things that go with what we feel. Ultimately person K and others are acting out of their conditioning as they had no powerful leader to to keep them in check anymore. We cant say that their conditioning should have disappeared. Krsna does not do that, who are we to wish it to happen. The only thing we can do is become genuine if we really care, so we can become the better leaders and educate the followers to become better followers. Otherwise we have a whole bunch of people feeling hurt being the jury and the judges living in their ideal world. Prabhupadas purpose wasnt to pass judgment on xyz, tom dick and harry, he was happy for any little good they did and tried to keep them on track when they meesed up, learning from history is one thing trying to shove all the blame on a few guys is another. If we really care like prabhupada says below we can be pure quite easily like he was himself and give an alternative but no most of us dont want to do that. its easier to talk about injustices and how things should of been different. Even if one of these fake gurus gave out a single book where one person became serious prabhupada is pleased and inturn krsna, we may speculate that that can be wiped completely but im not sure of that there are many quotes that suggest spriritual credits are eternal and aprahadas are like freezing those credits not loosing them (even though we may wish they lose them). Reporter: Have you ever had people come to you who had previously been involved with a fake guru? Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes, there are many. Reporter: Were their spiritual lives in any way spoiled by the fake gurus? Çréla Prabhupäda: No, they were genuinely seeking something spiritual, and that was their qualification. God is within everyone's heart, and as soon as someone genuinely seeks Him, He helps that person find a genuine guru. Reporter: Have the real gurus like yourself ever tried to put a stop to the false gurus—that is, put pressure on them to put them out of business, so to speak? Çréla Prabhupäda: No, that is not my purpose. I started my movement simply by chanting Hare Kåñëa. I chanted in New York in a place called Tompkins Square Park, and soon people began to come to me. In this way, the Kåñëa consciousness movement gradually developed. Many accepted, and many did not accept. Those who are fortunate have accepted. Reporter: Don't you feel that people are suspicious because of their experience with fake gurus? If you went to a quack dentist and he broke your tooth, you might be suspicious about going to another dentist. Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes. Naturally, if you are cheated, you become suspicious. But this does not mean that if you are cheated once, you will always be cheated. You should find someone genuine. But to come to Kåñëa consciousness, you must be either very fortunate or well aware of this science. From the Bhagavad-gétä we understand that the genuine seekers are very few: manuñyäëäà sahasreñu kaçcid yatati siddhaye [bg. 7.3]. Out of many millions of people, there may be only one who is interested in spiritual life. Generally, people are interested in eating, sleeping, mating, and defending. So how can we expect to find many followers? It is not difficult to notice that people have lost their spiritual interest. And almost all those who are actually interested are being cheated by so-called spiritualists. You cannot judge a movement simply by the number of its followers. If one man is genuine, then the movement is successful. It is not a question of quantity, but quality. Reporter: I wondered how many people you think might have been taken in by fake gurus. Çréla Prabhupäda: Practically everyone. [Laughter.] There is no question of counting. Everyone. Reporter: This would mean thousands of people, wouldn't it? Çréla Prabhupäda: Millions. Millions have been cheated, because they want to be cheated. God is omniscient. He can understand your desires. He is within your heart, and if you want to be cheated, God sends you a cheater. Reporter: ls it possible for everyone to attain the perfectional stage you spoke of previously? Çréla Prabhupäda: Within a second. Anyone can attain perfection within a second—providing he is willing. The difficulty is that no one is willing. In the Bhagavad-gétä (18.66) Kåñëa says, sarva-dharmän parityajya mäm ekaà çaraëaà vraja: "Simply surrender unto Me." But who is going to surrender to God? Everyone says, "Oh, why should I surrender to God? I will be independent." If you simply surrender, it is a second's business. That's all. But no one is willing, and that is the difficulty. Reporter: When you say that lots of people want to be cheated, do you mean that lots of people want to carry on with their worldly pleasures and at the same time, by chanting a mantra or by holding a flower, achieve spiritual life as well? Is this what you mean by wanting to be cheated? Çréla Prabhupäda: Yes, this is like a patient thinking, "I shall continue with my disease, and at the same time I shall become healthy." It is contradictory. The first requirement is that one become educated in spiritual life. Spiritual life is not something one can understand by a few minutes' talk. There are many philosophy and theology books, but people are not interested in them. That is the difficulty. For instance, the Çrémad-Bhägavatam is a very long work, and if you try to read this book, it may take many days just to understand one line of it. The Bhägavatam describes God, the Absolute Truth, but people are not interested. And if, by chance, someone becomes a little interested in spiritual life, he wants something immediate and cheap. Therefore, he is cheated. Actually, human life is meant for austerity and penance. That is the way of Vedic civilization. In Vedic times they would train boys as brahmacärés; no sex life was allowed at all up to the age of twenty-five. Where is that education now? A brahmacäré is a student who lives a life of complete celibacy and obeys the commands of his guru at the gurukula [school of the spiritual master]. Now schools and colleges are teaching sex from the very beginning, and twelve—or thirteen-year-old boys and girls are having sex. How can they have a spiritual life? Spiritual life means voluntarily accepting some austerities for the sake of God realization. That is why we insist on no illicit sex, meat-eating, gambling, or intoxication for our initiated students. Without these restrictions, any "yoga meditation" or so-called spiritual discipline cannot be genuine. It is simply a business deal between the cheaters and the cheated. Reporter: Thank you very much. Çréla Prabhupäda: Hare Kåñëa.
  16. Maybe misconception or not, but this misconception was planted by prabhupada directly when asked about these contradictions within his books he replies many times that the potential is always there to fall from vaikuntha (which seem to mean different things like dream actual fall etc) . So some feel clarifcation has already been made by prabhupada especially when directly issuing the crow and tal statement when asked about these contradictions. Others feel these staements are lies as they dont match what other gaudiyas are saying and it doesnt match the books. None the less the whole point of prabhupada's statement was that its not such an important topic and the same said by bhaktivinoda takhur, it can only be realised until then its serves only as intellectual satisfaction. Personally I preach the way prabhupada preached about fall down when directly asked about it, however i try and read and keep an open mind about it as im not sure prabhupada was lying or is it our ability to understand that is the problem. Maybe when I see krsna face to face I'll find out what the deal is.
  17. Krsna says there are 4 types of people that come to him, they may do things for krsna for different reasons but in the long run (which most of us seem incapable or unwilling to acknowledge for some reason) is that they will get a huge amount of purification and spiritual credits rather than the armchair idealists who benifit the world very little (and also do very little negative stuff either) Devotees that acted on the guru platform had different amounts of selfish interests, if your talking about post acarya system we had personalities like Gour Govinda swami, even if all of them we're completely selfish I rather have them giving me krsna conciousness then not at all. (yes it would be better if their motivations were pure but hey thats not always how things work in krsnas way of doing things ). I guess they did to some degree, and may be some had a spot of good motivation in there as well. Again the spiritual activities they have done in distributing prabhupadas message is infinately incomparable to the material chaos they caused. This may sound like a justification or rationalisation for what they have done, but to those looking at a short term view of what happend 25 years ago on planet earth this is a big deal and deserves the wrath of god, morality has been comprimised and the spread of the movement has been checked (Krsna can do whatever, whenever if he feels people are qualified nothing can check his desire), the way krsna see's it is very different, he see's these guys have been scum for millions of lives and in this life they had a brief moment where they made the effort although imperfectly. Sure they will get Karma but material karma is temporary spiritual bank account is eternal.
  18. The way I understand it is that if you leave the process for any of these material reasons (including guru falldown) then that is insincerity (A material excuse to give up KC). Sincerity is always looking for krishna no matter what happens, (political, social etc)
  19. This can be applied to our different types of faith in and understanding of guru. All of us start off impure then as we become purified our fanatical/obsessive types of faith improve in quality until we are in pure goodness and understand things as they are. TRANSLATIO N According to one's existence under the various modes of nature, one evolves a particular kind of faith. The living being is said to be of a particular faith according to the modes he has acquired. PURPORT Everyone has a particular type of faith, regardless of what he is. But his faith is considered good, passionate or ignorant according to the nature he has acquired. Thus, according to his particular type of faith, one associates with certain persons. Now the real fact is that every living being, as is stated in the Fifteenth Chapter, is originally the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. Therefore one is originally transcendental to all the modes of material nature. But when one forgets his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead and comes into contact with the material nature in conditional life, he generates his own position by association with the different varieties of material nature. The resultant artificial faith and existence are only material. Although one may be conducted by some impression, or some conception of life, still, originally, he is nirguna, or transcendental. Therefore one has to become cleansed of the material contamination that he has acquired in order to regain his relationship with the Supreme Lord. That is the only path back without fear: Krsna consciousness. If one is situated in Krsna consciousness, then that path is guaranteed for his elevation to the perfectional stage. If one does not take to this path of self-realization, then he is surely to be conducted by the influence of the modes of nature. The word sattva, or faith, is very significant in this verse. Sattva or faith always comes out of the works of goodness. One's faith may be in a demigod or some created God or some mental concoction. It is supposed to be one's strong faith in something that is productive of the works of material goodness. But in material conditional life, no works of material nature are completely purified. They are mixed. They are not in pure goodness. Pure goodness is transcendental; in purified goodness one can understand the real nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As long as one's faith is not completely in purified goodness, the faith is subject to contamination by any of the modes of material nature. The contaminated modes of material nature expand to the heart. Therefore according to the position of the heart in contact with a particular mode of material nature, one's faith is established. It should be understood, that if one's heart is in the mode of goodness, his faith is also in the mode of goodness. If his heart is in the mode of passion, his faith is also in the mode of passion. And if his heart is in the mode of darkness, illusion, his faith is also thus contaminated. Thus we find different types of faith in this world, and there are different types of religions due to different types of faith. The real principle of religious faith is situated in the mode of pure goodness, but because the heart is tainted, we find different types of religious principles. Thus according to different types of faith, there are different kinds of worship
  20. In the first paragraph what im saying is that if you leave KC because of bad leadership (following your guru to hell) or any other reason its insincerity. I am not giving a rationalisation for bad leadership. Prabhupada condemns both blind following AND pretenders. To just blame one part is foolish. Both need to be educated the leadership and the followers. Krsna's system is perfect. I dont see whats contradictory in the second paragraph. What im saying is that if we're sincere to some degree we'll stick to the process no matter what material obstacles come in our way and instead see these obstacles as mercy, stepping stones to krsna rather than an excuse to leave the process. (Rejecting what is unfavorable and accepting what is favorable, if something that began favorable becomes unfavorable then reject it.)
  21. Quote: <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by vijay "So, finding a bona fide guru requires intelligence and sincerity. If you are serious about understanding the goal of life, spiritual knowledge, then Kåñëa will help you. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Your quote of me is actually prabhupadas quote. As prabhupada says krsna gives people what they need and desire. Krsna is not unfair. If we look at history from a 30 year perspective then we can get sentimental about it as we are making conclusions based on a snap shot of a movie we are watching. But if we look at it from an absolute point of view, krsna is completely fair, Krsna's laws are perfect. The problem is we only theoretically believe these laws rather than actually understand them. Actually anyone that came before or after 1977 is sincere to the degree that krsna awarded them association of devotees. They are insincere whether before 1977 or after to the degree they left krishna conciousness, which happened during prabhupadas time and after prabhupadas time. Being initiated by a fallen guru is not the test of sincerity, the test of sincerity is aiming for krsna no matter what conditions come your way, whether your guru falls or not, whether your temple is destroyed or not, whether vaishnavas are nice to you or not, whether your material circumstances are condusive or not. People leave Krsna conciousness because their guru cult dream was destoryed or for many other reasons, none justifiable, but we must do our best to make everyone feel welcome as this pleases krsna, who stays or not is not in our hands. Both the followers that follow their guru to hell and the gurus that lead them to hell get their due reactions they are both insincere. The follwers fall away from krsna, and the imposter gets his due. Sincere devotees may go through "fake" initiations but in the end if they are truely sincere Krsna gives them guidance in any number of ways it may be prabhupada, other self realised (or not) vaishnavas or paramatma himself. None of us are sincere completely. So krsna gives us many obstacles to smash our misconceptions, some of us are ready to go through them some of us arent ready yet. We may see devotees we respect fall but there is a lesson from krsna in everything we see if we choose to see it from his angle rather than our egoistic angle.
  22. I agree, im questioning those that can claim 100% certainty that srila prabhupada is completely self realised, how they do this? As only a sincere soul that is advanced actually truely knows the realisation of a pure devotee. These devotees have given a few quotes showing how simple it is to recognise a pure devotee so is it possible to show me a few a souls they believe are seeing the pastimes of goloka vrindavan that are on this planet currently.
  23. So how do you know for definate srila prabhupada was completely self realised having lila with sri krsna? Are there any devotees currently on the planet that are self realised?
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