vijay

If you look back through my posts, i havent condemned or condoned any system, systems, circumstances and people will continue to change rightly or wrongly. That has never been the point. The contention was that people are misled. Agreed. Your solution is change the system as the above post suggests (which may or may not help). My view is there is a more fundemental problem of people not reading prabhupadas books and learning to choose their own spritual authority VERY CAREFULLY as prabhupada MANY times emphasises in the books. No one can lumber authority/guidance on to you its our choice to accept or reject, always has been and will be, and its clear from the books if read and assimilated properly, everyone has this oppertunity who takes it?

The order mahaprabhu gives is become guru, people need to be saved. There is no better solution to this and no impediment to this no matter what excuses are given the only real impediment is yourself.

This is not the case if you feel you can get better guidance from someone else not on the list theres nothing stopping you, you can even take diksa as long as the GBC are informed and say fine its okay in iskcon. Anyway im not going to get into the details as then everyone has their opinion on what a perfect system is. No doubt we dont have a perfect system, because the people arent perfect, gbc arent perfect the temple devotees aren't perfect so we see there is a need for perfect people. I can make my suggestions you can make yours, the prime thing needed is perserverance and purity from people trying to fix it, we have other conditioned souls in charge and if we can guide them then that will help, if you can become less conditioned that will help more. Opinions are dime a dozen. Innocent in this context means those who arent offensive to krsna, not innocent in the sense they have no conditioning or karma. People are told form the begining to read prabhupadas books, Krsna gives guru, guru gives Krsna. If you had a desease and you went to the chemist, you have a manual with you that gives the ingerdients of a good drug. A person may think i like the colour of this one il have this. He may get cheated, he may never want anything to do with drugs again and throws the book out. An humble guy may see he's mistake and this time read the book. Another reads the book but ignores it. Another follows the recomendation of others, he may get lucky or not. He needs to learn and not go round blaming everyone else. Another may think according to the book he has the right one but reads the book in error, he takes the medicine, it works for a while stops working eventually but still carries on taking it even though the symptoms of this drug arent what is described by the book. This guy then concludes that all drugs are bogus. A humble guy will reliease that this isnt whats in the manual let me find a better drug. Anyway the point is what should be taught in ISKCON according to my insignificant solution is read attentivley. Then you natuarlly discriminate the 3 types of devotees and qualify ourselves for finding purity. In my opnion reading attentively is always taught, the problem is most people dont do it. Yes the system can always be better, prabhupada says dont expect utopia. The system is just a tool, its not your right, the tool may work or not work thats p to us. You may have one book on a desert island, if thats what krsna has given you use that. Yes everyone should take responsibility and learn not just a few. Thats my point. I see everyone telling the mainly conditioned leadership to to learn but I dont see the rank and file who ahve got upset being told to learn and how to percieve the situation correctly. I think prabhupadas books and caitya guru are always there for us to learn from but people are distracted by so many other things about how the gbc run how each temple runs etc etc. Prabhupadas books and caitya guru dont depend on any of these things they are available and always will be available. Prabhupada in his books doesnt say become brainless and surrender to anyone, he gives us the conduct and how we should act, and who we should surrender to. Our devotion is not dependent on any society or material condition no matter what excuses we give prabhupada said dont become fixated on the society dont expect utopia. Yes the situation can always be improved and thats what prabhupada wants but we should do something about it rather than endlessly moaning about our leadership if we arent going to take a leading role, prabhupada had to use people like jaytritha, kirtananda as tehy were the only ones who stepped up others can give lip service but who steps up?. Fine people have tried to take the leading role like Gour govinda maharaj etc and they were persecuted, however even if he wasnt accapted during that time he has left us with so much, and he made a difference to so many peoples lifes. He didnt just winge about the system, he purified himself, spoke out and did something.

Im aware of groups in iskcon that have guru factions in places which is undeniable, there is definately a kanishta mentality in some places where people think my guru is the best. This can only be tackled by educating ourselves then others. However brushing everyone to be like that without knowing them is bogus. This statement is false. I'stayed in chowpatty a couple of years ago, and I personally know of at least one devotee who from the begining took initiation from another guru and and made this very clear to me and everyone and he has been cared for by the ashram and now is a bramhachari there. I dont know why people love to see the externals and make their big big conclusions about everything and everyone, more arrogance/ignorance.

I also want to add Iskcon means different things to different people. To some ISKCON mean the current and past management and devotees working in it. To others its a concept of devotees working together for the benifit of conditioned souls and themselves as prabhupada desired, to some a welfare system that provides your guru and care system, to others a oppertunity to do service and associate with devotees.

That is what is being taught in prabhupadas books, unfortunately people dont read attentively and follow the minds of others with so many theories. It would be simple for the simple but many people are complicated. The GBC have their rules for what they believe is conducive for the functioning of the society, either wrongly or rightly it doesnt matter, ultimately, prabhupadas books are their for those who want guidance on spitual life. I was thinking also how much does the gbc affect most of us really? Back in the days 90% where bramhacharis so dependent on the istitution but now its 95% grhstas, who go to the temple and do their services. What ive noticed is the obssession people have with the gbc and how some are so dependent on on every decision they make which has hardly any effect on ground zero. I see one of the reasons why preaching has died is people expecting the gbc to do 'something'. Its that victim mentality which has carried on from the past in places where the effect is now minimal.

As I explained in my previous post every living entity has a choice, some people went thru a crapy guru and they still choose krsna. Every situation we are put in is due to our own doings, every choice we make is due to our own doings. We shouldnt judge people but each person should understand this else we get a whole load of people blaming everyone else. Prabhupada could of creid at the situation and started doing phyco analysis of why his gurus institution fell apart, but he chose what ever is favourable for krsna. We have choices every lifetime they might be on a plate in one life and difficult in others depending on our OWN doings and choices. This is our philosophy. Some choose Krsna some choose maya by using their brain power to blame the cheater and not to see ones own faults. No one is innocent in this world not you nor i not anyone. The innocent soul will continue wondering this world until he is firstly accepts what is given by sastra in his heart and secondly he meets someone who can guide and nourish him. Thats where we come in, we cant blame the leaders and the foot soldiers for not being pure enough, but we can improve ourselves so we can help others. If we really felt bad about all these souls that missed krsna we would try really hard to become krsna concious so we can really help souls get to krsna, other wise its just superficial moaning.

There are only 2 alternatives, if somethings broke then some can try and fix it, another can walk away thinking its impossible to fix or its beyond his expertise to fix. We all make our choices.

This cry baby mentality of no indvidual responsibility is the desease that has disabled so many people which we need to get out of. The police force nor the government can be choosen by us. Fortunately Krishna gave arjuna the choice to surrender to him or not. Arjuna asked some pritty intelligent questions. So did pariksit maharaj to sukadeva goswami. Prabhupada choose BST, Krishna since time immorial has given us intelligence who to surrender to or not. Some how devotees have got into ISKCON the welfare state, the quick fix that will find you a spirtual master and send you back mentality. No doubt some previous leaders and followers liked this arrangement but it goes against what prabhupada taught. The responsibility is the individuals. The sooner people are taught that the better. You dont see prabhupada crying in his purports about how GM are corupt and they should change their system this way and that way. Actually they shouldnt have diciples, they should do it this way instead blah blah. He very infrequently talked about GM and only when he needed to both positive and negative. I agree we should always do something about it, otherwise we are implicated. You watch a murder and dont do your duty then we are implicated by silience. Most people understand this. But the tricky part is what and how should one react. One can expose people that are grossly negligent fine, but when talking about who is bonifide how are you going to educate people? Prabhupadas books are suffecient but we lack people who realise what he is saying. Everyone has opinions on who is bonifide, but examples speak louder than opinions, its the only way, prabhupada speaks of no other way in his books. mental spcualtors and stratergist can do nothing really. In any system buyer has to beware. If there was a full proof system where the buyer doesnt need to beware then Krishna would of introduced when he spoke to the sun god. The system is humbly approach guru(s) inquire submissively, then make your decision as arjuna did at the end of gita. The GBC may introduce checks, procedures etc either wrongly or rightly, however the system is the same one that krishna describes in gita to get back home and find a guru. We should definately fight for whats right in the right way and educate people to take personal responsibility not a welfare state, and we shouldnt get in to the below extract that I took from an email. The agitated mind urges us to change our situation--in the universe, in society or at least within ourselves. Scripture compares the mind to the restless wind or to an impetuous, uncontrolled horse. Though the mind calls for change, change doesn't satisfy the mind. Change is taking place anyway-- life after life we change our cosmic, social and mental situations, sometimes getting the form of a Brahma, sometimes that of an ant. But throughout it all, the mind remains unsatisfied. Srila Prabhupada called this utopianism--a never-ending search for noplace, or Utopia (from Greek ou, "not" and topos, "a place"). Dissatisfaction of mind simply drives us onward in the cycle of birth and death. It is the human habit to resort to speculation to relieve ourselves of utopian anxiety. Speculation generates "new discoveries," and new discoveries inflate pride in human progress. But pride stands behind the mind's utopian anxiety: "this situation I'm in now isn't good enough for me. " Thus new discoveries breed new anxieties. For example, Roentgen's discovery of X-rays in 1895 sparked a revolution in medical and dental diagnostics. Now we are told that every year an alarming number of people contract cancer from medical and dental X-rays.

Just to add I even know a few families that believe that prabhupada is all we need, however who are not offensive to any other vaishnava, who do not claim to know who is liberated but just know prabhupada can help them, neither do they use or propgate the concoted black book temple president ritvik intitiation system to be called a diciple of prabhupada they are doing fine, working in iskcon nicely. Im sure there are a few places that are fanatical but i dont see that as the norm.

This is not true. The GBC make no claim on whether he is liberated or not. Only a check on track record to allow or not to allow initiatians in iskcon. The responsibility of finding a guru is the diciples. I've been on a number of guru disciple courses and this is made clear. This claim of all of them are liberated is made by fanatical neophytes If devotees come to a situation where a guru is seen as liberated, then its that person who has to decide who is liberated or not, if he accepts blindly thats his problem, he has prabhupadas books he has sastra. Read it. When prabhupada was around everyone was systematically told prabhupada is liberated accept him as guru. Howver prabhupada could have been bogus, would you blame the society? The personal responsibility stands. Same thing with sai baba followers, cheaters get cheated. You can go on blaiming your sitation etc until your blue in the face but our sitaution is formed by our desires, whether favorable as in the case of everyone thinking prabhupada is pure, or unvaorable when everyone things sai is god. Again there maybe cheaters in the society or thoses who do not know what the meaning of a liberated soul is. Are you on the level to know who is liberated? People have to learn to follow what prabhupada has said, not to be blind but at the same time not to be arrogant. You maybe a scholor but not humble enough to see a pure devotee, or you may not be so clever but humble enough to see purity. How can anyone else decide for us? If someone thinks there are no liberated souls nor anyone they can take guidance from then they have to do the best they can. Maybe a historical fact, but a bit of an exageration today. If someone believes in prabhupadas teachings and doesnt get initiated are you telling me they will get beaten and banned? From what i've seens it is those on a crusade to tell everyone how such and such gurus are bogus and not liberated, twisting to show how they are all after money and fame etc they are the ones that are banned. I personally know bramhacharis that have lived at temples for at a few years still not considering initiation.

Without sounding uncompassionate, its equal fault. The problem is most of us dont believe the law of karma, we love to blame others rather than learn the lessons. We get what we give out EXACTLY. Those that dont humbly learn the lessons will continue to protest at the so-called injustice life after life. Karma is a rectification facility to make us humble and sincere. If we arent humble and sincere we will blindly listen to so many people, go with the flow, surrender in an escaping sort of way with the wrong mood, then get smashed, we either learn from that smashing or continue to cry. There is no 2 ways about it. Most of us need to be smashed in many ways as we are too stupid/conditioned to learn in the simple way. Simple for the simple complicated for the complicated. As theist prabhu says in devotional service krishna notes our mood and services, there is no loss in this regard whether guru's or other vaishnavas notice or not.

Its all krishnas corrective facility called karma, we had people in personality cults previously, abuse of women, demonisation of gays, so to counter those forces we have ritviks and complete minimisation of gurus vapu form, feminism, and galva to balance the force. The best thing is to get it right the first time other wise we have one extrme to the other.

The problem is that people assume that 99% are liberated. The point is you worship elevated vaishnava's that can help you and fits the criteria described in the scriptures to discriminate what is what. The fact is that we will not know who is liberated and who is not until we are at a high stage, until then we take guidance from whoever fits the bill according to sastra to guide us towards krishna, if he bloops then, you find someone else that can help you get to krishna, that may be another elevated vaishnava(s) or books or both depending on the needs of the disciples, the spitual masters (siksa/diksa gurus) are a transparent means to get to krishna. The onus to find someone to guide you is the responsibility of the disciple (through sincerity krishna awards guru). If the guru falls its the disciples full responsibility ultimately, we dont live in a nanny welfare state where we should have guru on a plate and if he's not correct demand compensation from someone. If someone believes someone is pure and he is not then its not the pretenders problem its the guy that fell for it. If we are foolish enough to take purity cheaply and arrogant enough to think we can spot purity then maya awards us accordingly. Krishna guides the sincere and even when things fall apart the humble sincere soul continues in his quest undisturbed. A bonifide disciple is awarded a bonifide guru (that guru(s) can take many forms, for some reason people assume the guru has to be a diksa guru which is the first major problem). Krishna does not cheat us. How does anyone know for definate that prabhupada is pure, or Gaur govinda maharaj is pure? No one on the conditioned platform can know unless krishna reveals it to us through the heart. He only reveals to sincere humble souls. If we dont know who is pure the best we can do is follow those more advanced than us worshipping the advanced vaishnavas and submissively humbley taking guidance as well as keeping our intelligence tuned in to scripture to spot any discrepencies in a humble way. Fools will always continue to be cheated no point blaming the cheaters for that. Its obvious there are many different types of gurus in iskcon, i cant say who is liberated or not but i can see that some clearly are not. If I choose to listen to foolish guys that say they are all liberated and not listen to what prabhupada and scriptures say then im the fool. You'll always have people pretending to be higher than they are, prabhupada already warns us about this, the responsibiltiy is always the disciples, ive never read prabhuapda say anywhere that our advancement in krishna conciousness and our spiritual master is someone elses responsibility or the instituations responsibility. If you feel no one in iskcon is capable of guiding you then there are plenty of other vaishnavas outside the institution and even outside the sampradaya. The responsibility is ours to get to krishna no one elses, where ever you end up in your next life you cant say o it was so and so's fault i got the wrong guru. There are plenty of differnt types of gurus for the mentalitys of differnt types of disciples, some going down the garden path some getting some elevation and some getting to krishna. And its true most people are just getting some form of elevation at best, firstly as they may have taken on guidance which is not the best, and secondly even if they have taken on the best guidance they are not the highest level of disciple, they have not really surendered to the guru, how many of prabhupadas disciples have taken his words to heart? What disciple really see the words of guru as their life and soul? Even the words of Krishna in the gita how many even take that seriously? Sure there are cheaters and many things wrong with so many devotees in and outside of iskcon (its the nature of the material world and condioned souls) we should try and rectify these things to our capability and we can only do that to the level we are advanced ourselves, other wise its just noise of empty botlles hitting each other. Gaur govinda maharaj left out of disgust but he never went around blaming others he just tried his best by his words and example to rectify things. He was humble and tolerant knowing that there are defects in everyone. Because of his example we are still learning from him today if all he did was take about the defects of others who would of listened, but because of his example his words still have value today.

Heres the clarification that JND prabhu gave. ISKCON System, Gurus must be liberated souls ISKCON System, Gurus do not need to be liberated souls First case is if you agree with current ISKCON system, but believe one must be initiated by a liberated soul. Second case if you believe ISKCON system, but feel a conditioned soul can also act as guru. Definition of liberated soul is in regards to Prabhupada's regular usage, mahabhagavata, etc. Another point to consider is if you agree with the last option ("Initiation not essential, following Prabhupada is primary"), then what system did Prabhupada want followed after his departure? Because many people will agree with this, but still some system must have been intended by Prabhupada.

Well I voted for the iskcon liberated guru, for me that choice means that the guru that i get initited by is approved to work in iskcon and is liberated. That doesnt mean that all gurus in iskcon are liberated. The GBC cant know who is liberated or not, all they can do is make sure the person who wants to give diksha meet the critieria of working in iskocn else they have to iniitate outside of iskcon. The other choice iskcon and not liberated to me meant that the person who one choses to get linitiated by is in iskcon but doesnt have to be liberated (ie can be a madhayama). Maybe we need definition of each category.

I read the last BTP where it took an out of context quote from indradyumna maharajs travelling preacher diary where he went to moscow to raise some funds, he found that because of some reason there were not many devotees that came to greet him (i think becasue of the economic boom in russia). So then he thought its going to be very difficult to raise any funds. What BTP done was accused him of wanting fame as not many devotees came to see him. They also accused him of just being interested in money. Forgetting to mention why he was trying to raise money (His festival tours in Poland) If this isnt blatant out of context nonsense spinning then i dont know what is. There was a whole page dedicated to a few out of context lines from the diary.

Its probably better to just take siksa from prabhupada as they say that this is the real initiation and stop going through such concoted lengths to get formal diksa which by their own accounts isnt the main thing.

What I dont understand about KK's ritvik doctrine is how do they make people disciples of prabhupada, according to them its the 11 that are suppose to be ritvik acaryas, but from what I know none of them initiated on prabhupadas behalf as ritviks so how do they now get people to be prabhupadas diciples????? I've heard they have a black book and use some former temple presidents as the ritvik acaryas. Is this not a concoction. Seems like they take selective stuff literally and easily point fingers at others for not following prabhupada but this system is definately not prabhupadas.

Please refer to my previous post

I think you've over analysed my statement, the statement wasnt for or against the ritvik system, the point was any pre-requiite on a pure devotee having to follow our impure interpretations of a debated order is a fallacy. There are plenty of other explicit criteria prabhupada has set to recognise purity. Simple.

I agree, my point isnt that diksa is or isnt needed, but to get back home back to godhead the instructions can come from anyone and anything and this is the primary thing. Bhaktivinoda thakur accepted siksa form jagantha das babaji maharaj. If ones diksa guru passes away in the first year who was their main siksa guru, the disciple can go back home by following his books and/or guidance from other siksa gurus. Prabhupada also points out that once we are cleansed enough even chaitya guru can guide us in many ways. Ritual diksha is over rated (although nessary just like a marriage cermony that makes our vows serious infornt of the lord and which we ask for help in our journey as well as other social and phycological factors that help us ).

What about one titled free flow of faith or something like that. Which means that any system suited for the person will do. I.e someone can go back home through siksa from books, another may need personal guidance from a pure devotee. We have cases in sastra where dhruva maharaj was told to find krishna in the forests by his mother he went and did it and had darshan in 6 months, in other cases it was all the mercy of a pure devotee.

If there were a pure devotee and he interpreted the instruction differently to these conditioned souls then he would be rejected as impure. Holding on to such prerequisites to judge purity is a fallacy. Our (mis/)qualifications to judge purity and the symptoms of one who is pure is clear in sastra, no more speculative additions are needed.