vijay

These guys many not all be perfect but they are trying --life is short, we have to go back to krsna following the best sadhus and gurus available in this world. Other social or politic considerations are not very important-- I agree you follow who you think is best and il follow who i think is best. Haribol

>>However Srila Prabhupada created an organisation for preaching and to set up a community of devotees now the aims of the devotees of this organisation have to be one, the following of prabhupada under his organisation, this is what prabhupada wanted. some unity and oraganisation.<< "Of course. But the opposite is occuring around the GBC's current initiating spiritual master program." No one said its perfect whether you have an acarya system or a body of gurus. The gaudiya math fell in to pieces because of an acarya falldown. >>Therefore the organisation recomends shiksha and diksha from persons following prabhpadas organisation to avoid conflicts of philosophy athority and aims.<< "The opposite is happening. Intiations and then reinitiations, mass confusion felt by disciples as they see their "eternal current links" fall down and they have to search for someone else. Wouldn't they have been better having a shiksa relationship with these persons?" They may of been or may not of been better off that wasnt my point. The point i was addressing is of why iskcon wouldnt say get initiated by someone outside iskcon that would cause confusion as athority philosophy etc differs. As for who people should get initiated by that ive already gone through many times with 'guest' simple answer people should do their research, read be sinciere and krishna will give us what we need if our desire is pure. Its easy to say by looking at the past 'he should of had a shiksha relationship', yes many devotees that shouldnt of been guru become guru. its happened in the gaudiya math its happened in the paast and will continue to happen, iskcon has to learn form it, which they are undoubtly doing. Yes 40 whole years have passed, but think about it there is no instance in vaishnav history that we know about were such preaching to so mayny different types of people has taken place its a difficult job. Prabhupada should us the way, the organisation is difnately not going to perfectly execute everything it will learn to walk and then run eventually. >>We traditionally havent had that in the past,<< "Well not since after Prabhupada left." yes, wasnt that clear from what i said or are you just clarifying further? >>but now there is a untited effort to preach in an organisation prabhupada has set up for us, that has to be mantained, other gurus outside of ISKCON may not want to work under the GBC that prabhpada set up therefore there is a clash of aims. So you are right that faith should be free flowing but there is also an organisation that aims to keep its memebrs united. It may not be carried out in the bast possible way with many mistakes being made,<< "Unity is not dependent upon their current nominated or not opposing someone system. Actually just the opposite is happening." I dont understand what you mean please clarify >>but if anyone can see a better way of resolving it keeping the aims and athority structure prabhupada has given us then please suggest so.<< 'People have been making such suggestions since 1978. They are the ones that get labeled heretics and excommunicated.' Yes i agree, GBC arent perfect and are learning they have apologised to some for past mistakes and are trying to rectify. The reason i said please suggest something is that its easy to attack a system as every system will have its draw back an acarya system a board of gurus or some combination, with every system there is always a problem different structures suit different times and different purposes. Hence the GBC ISKCON structure being a new thing in the gaudiya tradition or in fact most other vaishnav traditions, there is bound to be mistakes as there is no tradition to say how an international organisation should be run with so many different natures and cultures. They are learning from their mistakes and many people will always have their own view on how something should be done especially in retrospect its even more easy to critise. Its not just the guru fall down/nomination thing that has lead devotees to become confused, leave etc thats way too simplistic its just part of the problem which is the result of many previous problems and attitudes which need to be changed. http://www.chakra.org/discussions/varnasrama.html although i dont agree with everything the author has said i do find it widens the issue to a more wholestic level. Hope this helps

Thats very simplistic 'and what is following prabhupada if not going back to godhead?' Ofcourse that is an aim but there is an organisation prabhupada himself created, he created the boundries as you call them proably for a good reason? He asked memebers of ISKCON to follow GBC, and stay united following his books and sytem given by him. These guys many not all be perfect but they are trying. Its been 30 years which is a short space of time and the follwers came from very sinful backgrounds but its stabalising. "again freedom is better... even to teach people that prabhupada's following is not in joining an organization" ...Prabhupada created the organisation "the problem is that everything is turned in beaureaucracy and that some "outside" guru are following and teaching prabhupada better than the "inside" ones " i feel some so called "inside ones" are following to a very high standard, and i have a alot of faith in them, if you believe there are other gurus following prabhupada then i wish u best of luck, but please try not to get too bogged down on trying to compare iskcon gurus to other gurus you feel are better, that would seem a bit neophty my guru is better than these gurus etc and you may accidently cause vaishnava apharada.

--------------------------- vijay, both siksha and diksa will continue on. They are being conducted by the Supreme Person. Actually it could be argued that the present nominating system it a block in the free flow of faith. And how else does eternal knowledge flow but freely? And perhaps in a winding way. It's dynamic afterall. --------------------------- I agree faith is free flowing, and it can be argued that there is a block and there should be non of these nominations and limited choices etc. However Srila Prabhupada created an organisation for preaching and to set up a community of devotees now the aims of the devotees of this organisation have to be one, the following of prabhupada under his organisation, this is what prabhupada wanted. some unity and oraganisation. Therefore the organisation recomends shiksha and diksha from persons following prabhpadas organisation to avoid conflicts of philosophy athority and aims. We traditionally havent had that in the past, but now there is a untited effort to preach in an organisation prabhupada has set up for us, that has to be mantained, other gurus outside of ISKCON may not want to work under the GBC that prabhpada set up therefore there is a clash of aims. So you are right that faith should be free flowing but there is also an organisation that aims to keep its memebrs united. It may not be carried out in the bast possible way with many mistakes being made, but if anyone can see a better way of resolving it keeping the aims and athority structure prabhupada has given us then please suggest so. Its always easy to see the ideal but practical implementation is a tad more difficult. Hari Hari

apologies, i havent done my research, but will do ive sent a list of the quotes to someone who knows sanskrit and has the puranas. will get back to you.

What signs have you seen? Also the quote in the skand purana says mukti devi isnt bhakti devi his mothers name? All im saying is worship krishna at least he is definately god, as swaminarayan said dont worship a jiva and with swaminarayan it seems a bit risky as he isnt clearly in scripture so better to chant the names of krishna and meditate on him as instructed in the shikshapatri. I dont critise him i respect him as a guru as i was born in a swaminarayan family and the first scriptures i read when i young was the shikshapatri. However i rather follow his instruction rather than what his diciples said especially as his instructions are clear in the vedic scriptures krishna is everywhere and undoubtedly god, so better not to risk our spiritual lives based on sentiment we have a sure path which is the srimad bhagvatam and bhagavad gita especially written by vyas for kaliyuga for people like us. It is also said in the last skan/canto of bahgvatam that many so called gods and interpretations of god will come about in kaliyuga, so its a dangerous time we are in at the moment, and we know by swaminarayan, chaitany mahaprabhu and many others that krishna bhakti, rama bhakti, narayan bhakti is definately bonifide so let us follow that. Jai Shree Krishna

I kinda agree with you patriot, ultimately its our own journey back home back to godhead, and we can only go back if we have a pure desire. If someone is following prabhupada and giving good shiksha then take it. For me the guru nominating system isnt a bad thing it may not be so effective but it keeps open a choice for devotees to get shiksha from and diksa. These nominated gurus may be kanishta madhyama or uttama and you know you can test them if you want, ask your questions etc, the nomination just says they are available its up to the indivdual to judge. There are diciples and gurus also in kanishta madyama and utama level. The kanishta will proclaim his guru is the best, trying to defeat others because of his or her own insecurites, thinking his diciples the best and not able to take shiksha from anyone else. Ultimately we will be awarded by the sincerity of our desire and determination. Its easy to critise which ive done alot of in the past, its more rewarding to understand and try and help the mission through our service. Alot of vaishnavas on this planet arent 100% on the lilas with krishna stage, but we have to help each other, we should associate with higher devotees and instruct the once less advanced as stated in nector of devotion.

You SAID krsna gives to me the guru, but by his unconditioned mercy, not because i realize krsna by myself then i have the skills to recognize the guru I HUMBLY ASK How do you know krishna has given you that guru, how do you know he is pure and from krishna?

we are getting in to epistemology how do you know what is pure? I may say to you that i think these guys could be pure but i dont know until i am pure. How do you know someone is pure? How do you recognise a guru sent by mercy? Anyway from what i gatheed from prabhupada its very simple, chant, pray, read, do service and we will realise through the heart, i dont mean it sentimentally by reading, following and hearing our primary siksha guru srila prabhupada we can become purer and thus find a high level devotee. Pray for the mercy

Verse 25 shikshapatri One shall never listen to any religious discourses from a person whose preaching may deviate one away from the devotion to Lord Shree Krishna or one's religious duty. Verse 29 One shall never listen to or believe those scriptures in which Lord Shree Krishna and His incarnations have been skilfully and deceitfully denied or degraded. Verse 39 One shall never practise devotion to Lord Shree Krishna without observance of Dharma, and shall never give up devotion to Lord Shree Krishna for fear of criticism from ignorant persons. Verse 42 The Tilak shall be made with Gopichandan or consecrated sandalwood paste mixed with . and Kumkum that has been offered to Lord Shree Krishna. Verse 49 My disciples shall awaken daily before sunrise, and immediately offer prayers to and meditate on Lord Shree Krishna, before attending to their bodily functions and going to answer the call of nature. Verse 54 They shall then respectfully bow down before the images (or idols) of Shree Radha Krishna, and chant the mantra according to their capacity. Only after this, may they attend to their daily activities. Verse 55 Even those devotees who are Atmanivedi, like King Ambarisha, shall also perform the daily rituals as described above, up to the meditation upon Lord Shree Krishna. Verse 56 These Atmanivedi devotees shall worship the idols of Lord Shree Krishna made of stone or metal, or a Shaligram, with offerings (of sandalwood, flowers, fruits etc.) which are available at the time, according to their own capacity. They shall then chant the eight-syllabled holy mantra of Lord Shree Krishna. Verse 57 They shall then read hymns or the holy scriptures about Lord Shree Krishna according to their ability. Those who are unacquainted with Sanskrit prayers shall sing songs in praise of God. Verse 63 All my disciples shall visit the temple of Lord Shree Krishna every evening and sing loudly songs praising God and chant His names. Verse 63 All my disciples shall visit the temple of Lord Shree Krishna every evening and sing loudly songs praising God and chant His names. Verse 98 The fifth and the tenth canto of Shrimad Bhagavatam shall be regarded as the best amongst these scriptures for acquiring knowledge of the glory and greatness of Lord Shree Krishna. Verse 100 I accept the Bhashya on Vedanta Sutra by Vyas and Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as authoritative for acquiring knowledge of spiritual philosophy. Verse 101 The portions of these scriptures which describe Lord Shree Krishna, His image, duties of Dharma, Bhakti, and Vairagya shall be treated as taking precedence over all other portions. The essence of these scriptures is that Bhakti is inseparable from Dharma. --------------------------- Verse 108 That Ishwara is Lord Shree Krishna: Parabrahman, Bhagawan, Purushottam, our beloved deity and cherished God. He is worthy of worship and devotion by all, and is the source of all incarnations. --------------------------- Verse 109 He shall be Known as Radhakrishna when he is accompanied by Radha. He shall be known as Lakshmi-Narayana, when accompanied by Rukmani or Lakshmi. He shall be known as Nara Narayana when associated with Arjuna. (And as Rama Krishna, when associated with Balarama.) ************************************************************ Verse 113 All human beings on this earth shall worship Lord Shree Krishna with devotion, knowing that there is no other way to ultimate salvation than devotion to Lord Shree Krishna. *********************************************************** Verse 115 Lord Shree Krishna, His incarnations, idols, and images alone are worthy objects for meditation. One should never meditate upon any Jiva, person, Deva (demi-gods), or deity, even if he is a profound devotee or a Brahmaveta. *********************************************************** Verse 121 All my disciples shall understand that my school of Vedanta is Vishishtadwaita of Shree Ramanuja and my beloved abode is Golokdhama and the Mukti one shall desire is to get the divine body in the Dhama just like that of Brahman and to render service to God Shree Krishna. Verse 204 I have compiled this Shikshapatri, taking the essence of all Shastras. By obeying these commands, the desires of any human being will be fulfilled. Any way its clear that swaminarayan instructed the worship of krishna who he says in the shikshapatri is the source of all incarnations (avtari) However some swaminarayans claim that swaminaryan wrote these statments just to satisfy the vaishnavs at that time (even though he didnt have to go to the extent of saying Krishna is avtari). But as Hare Krishnas we accept the entire shikshpatri as there is nothing different at all to what we practice. It is also strange he mentions valabhacarya in the shikshapatri who is connected to chaitanya mahaprabhu intimately. It was chaitanya mahaprabhu who advocated radha-krishna worship, before the 6 goswamis got to vrindavan 500 years ago it was an uninhabitated forest. So i suspect the influence of mahaprabhu is there. Anyway swaminarayan himself condems worshiping any jiva even if he is a devotee only krishna and his incarnations should be worshiped according to shastra. So if the swaminarayans think they know better than the vedas and swaminarayans own words then so be it. Jai Shri Krishna This is from swaminarayan himself he makes it quite clear worship of krishna is supreme

Yep the rules are the same as ISKCON In the swaminarayan sect Swaminarayan is considered to be the Avtrai the source of everything including krishna rama narayan. So he is worshiped as god supreme. The BAPS sect as well as worshipping swaminarayan as supreme source of narayana's and krishna and rama, also consider pramuch swami as god not just representative but god himself.

Im getting tired with your narrow definitions and out of context answers of whatever i say. I will make things as clear as possible. YOU SAID ....this is not the behaviour of a sadhu, this is an aspiring sadhu, a conditioned soul who's practising I SAY A sadhu can be a conditioned soul on the path to krishna PRABHUPAD AND KRISHNA SAY In general, when dealing with devotees, we should not try to find faults. In Bhagavad-gita also it is confirmed that the devotee who faithfully serves the Supreme Lord, even if found to commit a gross mistake, should be considered a sadhu, or saintly person. Due to former habits he may commit some wrong, but because he is engaged in the service of the Lord, that wrong should not be taken very seriously. I SAID prabhupada has given us masses of books, sadhus are ment to direct us and sadhus arent all self realised im afraid so we have to judge according to knowledge given to us by prabhupada. YOU SAID ....so again "do it yourself" because sadhus are not real sadhus I SAY The point of the above statemnet if you took it in context is that we dont know what a self realised person is. SO we have to read books understand the philosophy, associate with devotees, and with this understanding JUDGE with intelligence AND Recomendation from other devotees we have faith in to guide us to a bonafide spirtual master. IF YOU HAVE A SPECIAL WAY OF KNOWING OBJECTIVELY LIKE YOU SAID THEN PLEASE LET ME KNOW IT WILL SAVE ME ALOT OF TIME. AND IM NOT SAYING ITS A DO IT YOURSELF PHILOSOPHY READ MY POSTS CAREFULLY. WHAT YOU SAID ....so again "do it yourself" because sadhus are not real sadhus WE ARE GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES IVE SAID YOU HAVE TO READ AND BE GUIDED BY DEVOTEES TO A SPIRTUAL MASTER, IF YOU KNOW A SPECIAL WAY TO KNOW A REAL SADHU OR GURU PLEASE TELL ME YOU KEEP AVOIDING THIS PLEASE ANSWER ME. I AGREE A SPIRTUAL MASTER SHOULD BE A MAHABHAGVAT HAVING LILAS IN THE SPIRTUAL WORLD BUT HOW DO WE KNOW OBJECTIVELY LIKE YOU SAID PLEASE ANSWER THIS PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. YOU ASKED but i will be very glad to you if you'll answer to this answer/doubt i have already expressed: "The GBC sets out a minimum criterion to who can be a guru in ISKCON. They dont declare a mahabhagvat ...what is that minimum criterion? i have seen that some other devotee has given this definition but i don't know what it could be.. i believed that the minimum criterion for a guru was to be a mahabhagavat... bhagavan god, bhagavat book, bhagavat person" I ALREADY SAID ISKCON is an organisation the aproving acts as a minimum check that these devotees know the philosophy and are in good standing with regards to practice. The rest is up to you, you may find someone not on the list good for you. Its a minimum criterion by a group of sadhus. The judgeing of purity is always down to ones self. It may not be the best system, youve got an objective system please share it. YOU MAY ASK IN THE FUTURE A sadhu is suppose to direct us to a maha bhagvat guru etc... I WILL SAY How do you know what a pure guru is or a pure sadhu that you can totally believe therefore you have to read and take the advice of people you have some faith in and pray to krishna as you advance you will recognise purity. ISSUES YOU STILL HAVENT ADRESSED/IGNORED PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS BELOW AS YOUR FIRST PRIORITY BEFORE YOU START NIT PICKING How come bhaktivinde takhur rejected his guru, he is a self relised guru, wasnt it easy for him to find a guru by listening to sadhus? He was a great scholor himself. Whats the objective way of finding a self relised guru like youve claimed. PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS AND DONT TAKE THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HOW TO KNOW WHO IS BONIFIDE GURU.

"...it is not a subjective matter, if the guru is a real guru he can deliver everyone, there were no question, with prabhupada present in this world, to choose anyone more fit for the practitioneer, prabhupada, as real guru, was fit for everyone." How does the above statement make choosing a guru objective? People still have to investigate, whether the philosophy made sense, choosing between other sects like swaminarayans etc, some diciples went to the gaudiya math, some joined rajnesh. Prabhupada him self said dont choose a guru blindly, it means we have to choose him with intelligence. Many people think this guru and that guru is bonifide ultimately we have to decide. If you think its such an objective thing you tell me what that clear and objective fact is that makes a guru clearly real. "And if only the individual can decide, what's the use of approving?" ISKCON is an organisation the aproving acts as a minimum check that these devotees know the philosophy and are in good standing with regards to practice. The rest is up to you, you may find someone not on the list good for you. "".....my point is that a devotee gives advices and instructions taking the responsability of it, not saying "i have given this advice but ultimately it is up to you". " Well a devotee will give advice to the degree he is capable of. A devotee may not be able to see in to the future but tries his best to give other devotees what he can. And ulimately everything is down to the individual devotees endeavour for truth. "This behaviour, together with the many fallen gurus, leads the people to have little faith in the guru principle. The results are clear from how the things are going on, and from the answers given in this debate, who are in many cases for bypassing the guru, that we listen paramatma by ourselves and so on.. . "" Yes many mistakes have been made and many will be made. People may lack faith. Well my point is if you are sincire then krishna will send you a guru. sincire meaning not blind faith but through knowledge and understanding. "In iskcon, in my opinion, there's authentic spiritual masters, but the environment is somewhat giving the message that it is not possible to have real gurus after srila prabhupada.... this is my point, i do not want to criticize or destroy " I dont feel this i myself have strong faith in some spritual masters in ISKCON, but i realise others will not. "....sadhus are meant to teach us purity and to recognise it, how can we do it by ourselves?" Yes true but we also have intelligence, prabhupada has given us masses of books, sadhus are ment to direct us and sadhus arent all self realised im afraid so we have to judge according to knowledge given to us by prabhupada. It was seen by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Prabhupada, that bhaktivinde takhur rejected his diksa guru, so again im reminding you if someone as scholorly as bhaktivinde takhur chose someone not so spirtually great then im sure there isnt such an objective fact which is so clear as to prove which guru is real and which is not. I think you have some fixed ideal model in your mind that doesnt reflect reality, or you know something about guru qualities that even bhakti vinod takhur didnt know. "....and the simple is that if i am competent in a matter, the people who is asking something to me want real advices, real judgements. Prabhupada had no fear to judge: "he's a pure devotee... he's a rascal cheater Well prabhupada made contridictory statements about his godbrothers sometimes they are pure and sometimes compared them to kanistha's and mosquitoes, so again like ive explained above either you know something we dont know or you have a model which doesnt fit reality Hare Krishna

http://www.shikshapatri.org.uk/~imagedb/content.php/rmwc This give a history of the sect and hows its divided up in to different factions, hope it helps. The neasden one is the BAPS sect, they worship Pramuch Swami Maharaja as god.

--"""of course.. and it is not the main problem. The main problem is that an institution first approves a guru, then, in case that he falls the institution say "it was not our duty to recognize if he was authentic or not". My point is, let the devotees be free. But now you have to choosen between the authorized gurus, to avoid association with the unauthorized ones, but this authorization means nothing... and if your guru falls down you are the cheater who has choosen a cheater as guru.. they have no responsability""" The GBC sets out a minimum criterion to who can be a guru in ISKCON. They dont declare a mahabhagvat. Only the individual can decide who is the highest and who they will gain the most spritual advancemnet from. "My point is, let the devotees be free. But now you have to choosen between the authorized gurus, to avoid association with the unauthorized ones" The devotees are free if they dont want a guru in ISKCON as i think your point is, then go outside of ISKCON like many have done. ISKCON is an organisation trying to be based on prabhupada's teachings and they have made many mistakes, if someone wants to leave then leave hope they advance in spiritual life. ""but this authorization means nothing... "" Its a minimum criterion by a group of sadhus. The judgeing of purity is always down to ones self. The purer we are krishna rewards us accordingly. Simple for the simple, more difficult for those with an agenda Jai

The verse mentioned states he will be a swami and hari himself this does not mean swaminarayan it can just as well mean any swami claiming to be god. Please find specific verses especially if your trying to prove him as avatari, and please include references as its difficult to verify without context. Jai Shri Krishna

heres the other quote swaminarayans use Maya krushnana Nihataha Sarjunana Raneshu Yay | Pravartayishyantyasurastay Tvadharmam Yada Kshitauha ||42|| Dharmadevatada Murtaum Naranarayatmana | Pravrutayapi Kalau Brahman ! Bhutvaham Samago Dvijaha ||43|| Muni-shapan-nrutam Praptam Sarshim Janakmatmanaha | Tatoavita Gurubhyoaham Sadharmam Sthapayanaja ||44|| This clearly explains that in Kali yuga, the Lord will be born to a family of Samvedi brahmins, to Dharma dev and Murti devi using Narnarayan as the causal factor. By establishing Dharma, he will free the Munis and his parents from the curse of the Rishi, which sent them all on earth to be reborn. Again this does not seem accurate swaminarayans mothers name wasnt murti devi. And i will check the above quotes out soon. I myself am born in to the swaminarayan sect the one that claims to be the original sect (isso) Anyway the other sect (baps) believes that the next 24 gurus that come down from swaminarayan are god themselves they use a verse from the vachanamrta. There are also many other break away sects liek bapashri who worship only their gurus and now ignore/minimise krishna shiva and even swaminarayan himself. The way i see it is that these swaminarayan guys are taking a big risk especially the ones that claim swaminarayan is the supreme avatari the source of krishna, narayana, shiva etc. They claim this however it seems a bit strange that this supreme personality is not mentioned in scripture as such if at all mentioned directly anywhere. I myself worship krishna as at least that is clearly supported in scriptures form vedas to puranas. Anyone believeing swaminarayan is supreme avatari is basing that not on vedic athority as scripture does not state this anywhere. Jai Shri Krishna

The gbc arent pure devotees well at least not all of them, and it isnt neccecary to be pure to be a guru it is the ideal but not neccesary. Prabhupada often says the ideal guru should be uttama, thus you can have madhyama and kanishta gurus and diciple. Decentralisation is not what prabhupada wanted, he wanted co-operation organisation and intelligence, although problems will always oocur we have to learn using our intelligence

Ive been thinking about this qustion for some time (my mental speculation). In Logic we have what you call proofs by contradiction. I studied this at degree level but forget most of it now but here a simple version. a contradiction is simply any conjoined with the negation of that very same formula. So the following are all examples of contradictions P & ~P (~ = not) P is say a statement the water is hot AND ~P is the water is not Hot This statement can never be proven as it is a contridiction within it self. The same can be done with the question can god create a rock which he cannot lift. god = unlimited contridiction would be can the unlimted be limited. In the logical sense this question is absurd, a contridiction. Its like asking can hot be cold? The tallest be the shortest? Lets take a closer look.(I have too much time at work) lets have our assumptions that we agree on. These ar ethe attributes that make up god else he is not god. 1.God has full control of himself at all times (Controller). 2.God is unlimited For god to create a rock is possible. He will always be able to lift it because that rock exists as a part of himself. Else we have a contridiction to definition 2. If the rock is created outside himself then it defies definiton 2. god is unlimited, as it would mean the place he creates that rock he does not exist. If god created a rock that he could not lift then it would contridict definition 1 god is the controller, he would not be able to control everything if the rock could not be moved. Thus we have these contridictions in whichever way you look at it. can the unlimited be limited can the controller not control. can the eternal be temporary which is the same as saying can god not be god. This statement in Logic would be seen as a contridiction and thus unprovable. ie True = ~True True = False. Hope this helps, ultamately god is beyond logic some need to understand logicaly before they can take the leap.