vijay

"I am not challenging the drinking of milk, I am challenging the drinking of commercial milk devoid of cow protection. Do you see the distinction?" Yes, this discussion has always been about commercial milk. "You seem concerned about the word hypocrite. Everyone I know is to some degree a hypocrite, definetly including myself. But we have to work on it." Im concerned that you think srila prabhupada and his allowance of his diciples of having milk is hypocritical. But im gald youve changed your self rightous tone from what you had below. Thiest : “No body can force anyone to stop this practice of taking dairy from slaughtered cows but then please don't turn around and lecture the world on cow protection, you give up that right when you drink milk from a murdered cow.” "Perhaps you could give me a better word for someone who preaches cow protection while himself killing cows everyday." Please il ask once again give me evidence by not drinking commerciual milk it will reduce cow-slaughter (there will be less dairy cows replaced with non-diary cows for the appitite of carnivors.) "You couls say we feel that supporting the torture, enslavement and slaughter of cows and calves is bad but because we offer the milk to Krsna it is really better for them in the long run. That would not be hypocrisy." This is what we say, it is indeed bad that cows are suffering (i dont know about the slaughter you still have to give me evidence), but offering milk benifits the cows, and at the same time we strive for the ideal which is cow protection therefore we preach that. I dont see that as hypocritcal. "Of course this also sounds like the argument that justified stealing from people while selling books. ajnata sukriti so stealing from people was really the devotees being merciful. I am not convinced of this approach" This is only bonifide when done by the athorisation of guru just as when krishna asked yudistir to lie and cheat. Not when done whimsiclly. Srila prabhupada never him self stopped drinking commercial milk, nor asked his dicsiples to stop. Im convinced of our acaryas approach.

"Do you assume that the only way of making offerings to the Lord is through an arotika ceremony? " Nope, "Animal slaughter is a cause of war. Animal slaughters and buthchers cannot comprehend the finer points of Krsna consciousness. " I agree, but they still may get ajnata sukriti like the tree does when a fruit is offered, and it also may not safe a cow to refrain as described in the previous post. "Suppose someone wants to speak out on behalf of the helpless and voiceless ceatures of this world as their path of karma/bhakti-yoga, an offering to Krsna?" "Perhaps someone decides to refrain from cow slaughter as an offering to Krsna?" Thats fine, my only point is be careful of branding those devotees who do have milk as hypocries, i dont see anything wrong in devotees encouraging or educating devotees on what the cow goes through, it may make us reliese how much we have to do, but to brand anyone that does not follow refraining from milk hypocrites is dangerous especially in an issue where its not so black and white. "Perhaps someone decides to refrain from cow slaughter as an offering to Krsna?" Im not sure if that benifits the cow spitually but i guess you get good karma, and krsna may see it as a good thing just like giving up meat eating gambiling etc for krishna, the only differnce is that milk is offerable, none of the four regs are. Maybe its more analogous to using clothes made by child labour or not, is it better we use them in krishnas service or refrain from using them, whats more benificial? I guess the difference there is that if we stop using them then its stops, with milk, the milk cows get replaced by normal cows for slaughter.

I need to hear more krsna book, i hope one day these lilas become engrained in my mind. Hari Hari

"But those who believe in Lord Krishna as Supreme, is there a scripture which predicts Lord krishna's arrival before he did. " If you do some research you'll find that the scriptures where written by vyas when krishna came to the planet, so to say is he predicted in scripture doesnt make sence, however before krishna came to the planet the vedas where recieved in oral transmission. At a young age if you read mahabharat krishna was recognised even by his astrologer as one who comes in 3 yugas, parshurama knew krishna was coming, sandipani muni knew who krsna was, as well as many other sages and demigods who came to see him. Vyas deva knew krishna as god, he knew past present future, he wrote the vedas and in there krishna is mentioned in srutis and smritis. Its not the case only when krishna told or showed evryone is form that people recognised him he was recognised even before his arrivals by sages. He is also been said to be worshipped as jaganath even before his arrival on the planet. There was also a demon who claimed to be the incarnation krsna, krsna eventually killed him (Does anyone know the name?) Hope that helps.

"But He's speaking of go-raksya for our special material benefit, that if we protect the cows, we can have the facility of drinking milk" My point was that its a material thing unless engaged for krishna. "...that IF we protect the cows, we can have the facility of drinking milk,..." Yes so srila prabhupada and his disciple are hypocrites for drinking the milk of unprotected cows. right? better the cows live an extra few years than they get benifited by their milk offered to krishna, ASSUMING that they actually get a few extra years by not drinking thier milk. You have the right not to drink milk due to compassion/sentiment/your understanding of philosophy But not the right to call others hypocrites -without knowing for certain whether your are actually benifiting the cow in the first place by not drinking thier milk. -Without actually knowing whats more benificial not to drink milk or to offer it to krishna. -without providing evidence that our acarya (Prabhupada) was wrong to drink commercial milk and therefore we should not follow him in this regard. Haribol

Devotee (3): Is it possible that somehow or another at that particular time and place, God would have said "Eat cows"? Because in Bhagavad-gita Krsna clearly says go-raksya, cow protection. And that instruction would also be eternal. Prabhupada: Go-raksya, the point is that cow's milk is very important. Therefore specifically mentioned go-raksya. Krsna does not say that don't eat meat. It is not really said that meat-eating is forbidden. But meat-eating is tamasika, pramadya (indistinct). But He's speaking of go-raksya for our special material benefit, that if we protect the cows, we can have the facility of drinking milk, which will help us in keeping our health in order and developing very nice brain tissues to understand spiritual subject matter. Fish-eaters, they're all dull. They cannot understand finer philosophy of life. Meat-eating, not good. But the sudras, and the less than sudras, they eat. But for them there's lower animals, not cow. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada The below conversation is interesting, maybe if we sell our dead cows to butchers, then cow protection can become more viable than it is now. Im not too sure if by regulation we are allowed to do that. But an interesting conversation anyway. Pusta Krsna: What we've been doing with the dead cows is burying them, there's no..., everything's wasted. Srila Prabhupada is proposing that why not the butcher take, we give free, he simply returns us the skin of the cow, and with the cow hide we properly tan it, we can make mrdanga heads for the khol, and shoes, straps, whatever may be needed. The idea being that in the Western countries especially, people are accustomed to eating animals, animal flesh. So we have no objection. Prabhupada: Beef, especially beef. Pusta Krsna: Especially cows and beef. So we have no objection, but they should at least wait until it dies naturally. What is the harm? They still get the same thing, and one devotee, Kirtanananda, I think, was saying that when they slaughter an animal even in the slaughterhouse, it has to sit some time, some number of days before they distribute it. So I proposed that the Westerners, they consider that this is superstitious, this protection of the cow. Prabhupada says Why superstitious? The cow is providing milk. Every child knows that he's getting milk from the cow, the cow is mother. So why in the old age we should slaughter mother? Is this a good argument that like, for example, they say, in India, how so many people are starving, why don't they eat the cows? So Prabhupada proposed that "If you're starving, does it mean that you eat your mother and father?" Prabhupada: If you want to eat, let the father and mother die, then eat. (laughter) Who has objection? Pusta Krsna: It's so reasonable. At least, Prabhupada says, for the saner section, they will accept. Hari-sauri: The thing is, people are mad after meat. Prabhupada: Madman... Pusta Krsna: But they still get it. Prabhupada: But he'll get meat. Hari-sauri: But then their argument is that if we don't have big, big slaughterhouses, then there won't be enough supply. Prabhupada: No why should...? After all, the animal is going to die. It is not for..., he's permanently. Why should you kill? Pusta Krsna: But they kill the animal first in the slaughterhouse and then do whatever they have to do. Dhrstadyumna: But we are killing when they are young, when their meat is fresh. When the body is old, the meat is... Prabhupada: That you have to change. Fresh or dead, you're eating flesh, that's all. You wait till the death. Dhrstadyumna: But the old flesh is not... Prabhupada: Anyway, you do not..., you do whatever you like. So at least you can take free of charges a dead cow from us, and you can give us only the skin, and you eat. Dhrstadyumna: This should be the system. Pusta Krsna: It's so reasonable. Prabhupada: Yes. We don't want anything from you; you take it, the whole flesh. You take free. You simply give us the skin, we can utilize it. Pusta Krsna: Even if people would do this, it would be such an advancement. Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Because a class of men will demand to eat the flesh. You cannot stop it. So we are giving free: you eat. And from economic point of view, we require the skin for our mrdanga making. So give us the skin. That's all. Pusta Krsna: Prabhupada says the butcher, even, he can sell the meat cheaply, make profit. He's getting it free of charge. Hari-sauri: Maybe some time in the future this could happen when Krsna consciousness becomes very powerful influence in the country, but unless we could actually close the slaughterhouse... Prabhupada: No, but now by imploring, we are requesting him that "You can take this cow and sell in your shop, butcher shop, you give us the skin. And you can tell the customer that it is as good, it is cheaper. So whatever money you get, that is your profit. You haven't got to invest anything." Dhrstadyumna: Do you propose that we should do this now, Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: (laughs) No, no, this is... Think over. Hari-sauri: Yes, the proposition is very good, that's a fact. Prabhupada: First of all, you try one butcher, that "Why not make this advantage?" How does he react, see. Dhrstadyumna: Yes, that he will not pay anything... Prabhupada: He's not going to pay us. You simply take it and sell it. Pusta Krsna: They sell meat..., for one pound of meat, they can get sometimes two dollars, three dollars, four dollars. So much money... Dhrstadyumna: But the government has inspectors, a team of inspectors. No meat can be sold unless it is inspected, and then they want to examine the conditions. Prabhupada: So let them inspect. What is the wrong there? It should be open. If the inspection, there is nothing wrong, then they can do this business. Hari-sauri: Generally, though, their inspection is when the animal is alive, they check to see that he has no disease. Then they can be killed. But if an animal dies naturally, then generally it is to be supposed that it dies from some malfunction within the body, that there may be some diseases or whatever. So then... Prabhupada: That is artificial. Hari-sauri: But that is their rules and regulations they have. Prabhupada: They'll change. When they, by chemical analysis, they don't find any fault, then they can change. From economic point of view, why this body should be wasted? Let it be utilized. Those that are eating, let them eat. And economic point of view, we save the skin. We require it for our purpose. That is the agreement. After all, we require the skin for our khol making. Dhrstadyumna: For the farm straps? Pusta Krsna: Shoes, slippers, so many things. I think Kirtanananda Swami has done that with some of the cows. They have taken the hide for making things, straps. Hari-sauri: They're not doing it now, though. Prabhupada: But we should not do it ourselves. Dhrstadyumna: Yes, that's for the mucis. Prabhupada: That is not our business. Dhrstadyumna: Give it to the butcher. He will get the skin and give it to us. Prabhupada: Not that everything we have to do. No. That will deteriorate. Those who are doing, let it be done by them. Hari-sauri: It seems like it will be a long time before we can implement something like that. Prabhupada: I am proposing, think over it. Because it is a fact that in spite our vigorous propaganda, we cannot stop meat-eating. That is not possible. People will eat. So those who are eating, let us make some arrangement that "You take it free of charges." From economic point of view, they get it free. They can make good profit. And we are interested with the skin. So why not make some arrangement? It is practical. Hari-sauri: That's very good. Prabhupada: Instead of the thing being wasted for nothing, let us devise some means, that you are eating, you can eat. And we want the skin, let us give him. What is the wrong there? Pusta Krsna: Perfect economics. Prabhupada: Yes. We require the skin, that's a fact. And you want to eat, all right, eat. Pusta Krsna: Could such a thing be done today in India also? Prabhupada: No, why it will be done? Everywhere it should be. That is the... Who does not eat meat? First of all, you try this. From economic point of view, why one thing should be wasted? Dhrstadyumna: Practical preaching. Hari-sauri: We can't stop meat-eating, but we can stop the unnecessary slaughter of animals. Pusta Krsna: That would be a great step forward. Prabhupada: So our business is to stop slaughter. Meat-eating we cannot stop. Certain persons, they must eat. They are fourth-class, and then fifth-class men. There are four classifications--brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra and candala. Candalas, they will remain, and they are eating. Let them eat meat. That is the system in India still. It is not that in India nobody's eating meat. The cobbler class, they eat; the candala class, they eat. Pusta Krsna: Even cows, cow flesh. Prabhupada: Dead. This cow killing has been introduced by these Britishers. Dhrstadyumna: Christian. Prabhupada: Christians. Hari-sauri: Even they're exporting beef from India. Prabhupada: Yes. They can do anything, take the dead cows. I do not know if there is any chemical composition change. They are eating so many dead animals. Take for fish. The fish is never killed alive, because as soon as you take it out from water, it is dead, after few minutes. Pusta Krsna: And they don't consider whether it's a young fish or an old fish. Dhrstadyumna: If that was the system, people will not get sick. They will not get sick from eating old animals. Prabhupada: No, no. This is all wrong conception. Dhrstadyumna: They will say..., simply think the taste there is too tough, the skin may be older. Prabhupada: They are eating so many rotten things. Dhrstadyumna: Yes. And they are burning it, cooking it. Prabhupada: Lobster, it is simply pus. They eat. I've seen it. From whiteness it has become yellow. Puslike. They eat it, what is called that soup? Lobster soup? Pusta Krsna: Clam chowder? So many things. Prabhupada: But they like very much that lobster soup. In the plane, one Englishman was doing "What is this? I asked after lobster soup." Pusta Krsna: In England? Oysters? Prabhupada: No, lobsters. Pusta Krsna: With the big pinchers. Hari-sauri: They get the lobsters sometimes alive, and they throw them in boiling water, and they can hear them screaming. But now they're speculating whether it's actually the lobsters screaming because it's being boiled alive or whether it's just air that's coming out from its body and making a squeaking noise. Prabhupada: No, that is, apart from that, they import lobster from India, Cochin. They are exporting lobster alive. I have seen. The same ship, they load it with lobster fat, and black creepers, and cashews, they exported. The big, big business firms are exporting. So these lobster, although they are kept in ice and so on, so on, they become decomposed. I've seen in the port, that Commonwealth Pier. There is store of lobster, and the lobster has become yellow and almost melted by decomposing. They are selling that. Hari-sauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they consider it's the best. Prabhupada: Hmm? Hari-sauri: When it starts to fall apart, that's when they think it's the best. I think I mentioned before, in England, the gentry, the British gentry, when they used to go hunting, shooting pheasants and partridges, afterwards they would get the dead birds and hang them in a shed outside, and then after some days, when all the skin and feathers were literally falling off, that's when they would eat it. That's when it was considered rich. Prabhupada: There are so many kadarya things. In Burma, they have got a system, Burmese family. In the door, there is a pot, a big pot. So whatever animal dies, put it in there and cover it. So in this way, after some years, they're decomposed, and it becomes liquid, and then it is so decomposed that if you open it, within three miles they smell. So that is mature. Then they take out the liquid and keep it in bottles. That is called naphi. And they stock it, and when there is some feast at home they'll give little that naphi, and they'll relish it. Pusta Krsna: Barbers? Prabhupada: Burma. Pusta Krsna: That's the most... Prabhupada: And when you fry luci, all the other tenants will come "What you are cooking?" This is practical because we opened..., my Guru Maharaja opened a branch in Burma in an apartment. So that Gauranga who was my servant in family life, he was there. He said like this, that "When I fry puri, the ghee smell is there, so many people will come from other apartments, (whispers) "Oh, what you are cooking? What you are cooking?" And the naphi, they relish it in feast. So it is a question of taste. Pusta Krsna: That's the ultimate. Dhrstadyumna: I remember as a child in Hong Kong, in the village they would keep big glass jars of snakes, they would put the snakes in jars. And after they were many times soaking in liquid, then they would eat it. Hari-sauri: Pickled snakes. Prabhupada: Snakes. Dhrstadyumna: Yes, keep it in a jar in liquid. Prabhupada: They put in the jar alive? Dhrstadyumna: No, they catch it, kill it, put it in the jar. Hari-sauri: It's like a pickle, they pickle it. And when they want to eat it, they take. Prabhupada: So there is poison in the mouth, they cut it? Dhrstadyumna: They cut off the head, flesh. Prabhupada: Snake they eat. Even in India there is a class, they eat snake. Chinese, they eat. They are Chinese? Dhrstadyumna: Yes. Prabhupada: They eat anything. Pusta Krsna: So many abominable things. Hari-sauri: Someone was telling me in Mexico they have a sandwich called tortilla. It has live cockroaches. And as they're eating, the cockroaches are running to get out of the sandwich, and they are pushing them back in and eating it. Pusta Krsna: In Africa also they eat live bugs. Cockroaches, dead or alive, anything. Once when we were in Zambia, there was this one African who was cleaning around the house, his name was David. He was about twenty years old. So we swept up his room because it was so filthy--I was there at the time. And there were all these cockroaches in a pile, and we were about to throw them out and he said, "What, you're throwing them out? You mean you're not going to eat them?" (laughter) Dhrstadyumna: There was one big, big professor we met in the college... Pusta Krsna: It's hard to understand that prasadam is (indistinct). (laughter) Dhrstadyumna: Not only the Africans, but this big, big professor, she is advocating that people should eat the bugs because they are good protein. She is experimenting different bugs to eat--the worm, the cockroach, the beetle--and she's making a big study, being paid money, how to feed people by eating insects. Hari-sauri: They're already doing that. In France, you can buy cans of chocolate-coated ants, grasshoppers, frog's legs, bumblebees, fried bumblebees you can get. The French eat the most abominable foodstuff. Pusta Krsna: The English think that way, anyway. Hari-sauri: They all do. Prabhupada: Huh? Pusta Krsna: The English think the French eat abominable foods. Dhrstadyumna: This is the modes of nature, Srila Prabhupada, acting. Prabhupada: Kadarya bhaksana. Hari-sauri: It's difficult to imagine what kind of fate we would have had if you hadn't come and started this movement. Pusta Krsna: Everything is so scientific. We've seen practically that as people take up this chanting, that gradually they lose their taste for every other kind of eating. It's a fact. I should inform Kirtanananda Swami about some of these ideas? Prabhupada: Yes, if you can arrange with the butcher. Hari-sauri: One thing, the other day they were saying that sometimes when they have this skim milk, and there's some excess after they've fed it to the cows, they throw it away, they use it for fertilizer. Should they do that? Is that all right to use that? Prabhupada: Oh, no. We can use it. Hari-sauri: The skim milk, after they've... Prabhupada: What is that? Explain. Hari-sauri: They have some skim milk. So when they've finished giving it to the devotees and they've finished giving it to the cows, then if there's any extra, they throw it away. Prabhupada: How give it to the cows? Hari-sauri: They feed it to the cows. Prabhupada: They eat? Hari-sauri: They drink it. They put it in their feed, whatever. But then if there's any extra, they throw it away, they put on the..., mix it with fertilizer or whatever for the land. Prabhupada: It should not be given to the cows. It should be kept, and when it is broken, you get the chana. Hari-sauri: It should be made into curd and yogurt, things like that. Prabhupada: Yes, not yogurt, chana, what you call, curd? Pusta Krsna: Cheese, like cheese. Prabhupada: Cheese, yes? But it should not be thrown. From cheese you can make so many preparations. Hari-sauri: I'll mention it to Kuladri then. Prabhupada: Yes. Pusta Krsna: You mentioned also about the whey that you get. Prabhupada: Everything should be utilized. Instead of drinking water, you can drink whey. It is very good for digesting. Whey, put little salt and black pepper, it is good digestant. You can avoid water, drink whey. You can use it for capati. Pusta Krsna: Making dough? Prabhupada: Capati, just like you dip the capati, dal, you can dip whey. You can save dal preparing expenditure. Nothing of milk product can be wasted. You should learn it. Hari-sauri: Yes. That's what I thought, that's why I was asking. Prabhupada: Up to the last drop, it can be utilized. Hari-sauri: Everything. Pusta Krsna: Skim milk should not be given to the calves? The calves should get? Prabhupada: They don't require it. They don't require it. The cow is especially meant for the human beings. They can utilize in so many ways, and they should give protection, such an important animal. This is human being. (end) HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

"Very often I see devotees trumpet that the cows (and the farmers , too I guess?) are benefited by our offering their milk. However, I have never, ever seen any evidence offered in support of this assertion. Can anyone here do so? I'm talking about real evidence; any inference should be supported by shastric evidence." Haribol theist prabhu those words from srila prabhupada are a response to babhru prabhu's request as above. And just to carry on with Harekrishnadas's logic if you look at the dairy industry you will find that there are restrictions on milk producing due to over supply in the EU and America (milk quotas), this surplus has been increasing over the years, thus now governemnt tax breaks have been introduced and the killing of dairy cows to keep prices high enough for farmers to profit. The point is that these cows will be killed anyway for the slaughter industry, milking cows give the farmers extra revenue. Therefore my assertion is that you wont actually save any cows, instaed if we stop drinking milk as a country then only cows for slaughter will be bread, rather than milking cows + slaughter cows. The milksucks website gives no information on this, you'll have to look at other places which gives stats on the dairy industry and the slaughter industry. And as you can see from the quotes its clear that offering the milk benifits the cow. We are not minimalists like jains, above mode of goodness is the trancendental benifit, which one does not get for millions of births, to just refrain is also not mercy. Its like the humanists giving food to starving africans, its a very good moral thing but without spirtual benifit, its tempoarary, and even materially its feeble and not going to the root as the hunger comes about due to mans greed, if people really dont want africans to starve then try and change humans hearts that are the cause of it, governements etc. Else you are doing nothing to fix it, instead of going to the root of the problem you try and patch it up, but make your self feel better by chucking abit of food, extended sense gratification. 1 example - by paying your taxes you are the cause for millions of africans suffering rape famine toture due to british and american arms selling to african warlords, this is worse as if not more worse than animal slaughter, is the answer to refrain and stop working and leave your country? No its to use whatever you get, your money assistance from that same government etc to spread Krishna conciousness, we are not jains that belive in minimisation, our philosophy is yukta vairagya using everything in krishnas service and puryfing it. If we have a purer means like our own milk then we will use that. Cow protection is not our main business, niether is varnashrama, niether is building gurukulas nor temples, its whatever is favourable for our krishna conciousness and others. I dont see any evidence that by us not drinking milk it will save even one cow (all that happens is that the dairy cow is swapped with a non dairy cow), and also we are not bhudists our philosophy isnt ahimsa its yukta vairgya to engage everything in krishnas service, i rather die an early death and get ajnata sukriti which will stop my repeated birth and death eventually, not live an extra 10 years and never getting any of krishnas mercy repeating birth and death continously, it would be foolish.

Ive heard that the gopis married krishna during the year when brahma stole the cowheard bows and cows, krishna expanded as them and they were married off that year to the gopis, i dont have a source for this though. Ive also been told that in the bramhavaivarta purana and some other place it mentions how radha and krishna got married in secret, il try and find out more from the person who told me.

Can i point out that hetrosexual marriage is athorised by scripture (karma) (not just for procreation in the karma khand section), however homosexual acts do not fall into the same category that is counted as vikarma (acts against scripture) so im not too sure if formaly accepting it is a good move, just like formally accepting users of drugs is not okay, (if not practicing gay then different issue). I agree all should be welcomed but practicing in a gay monogomy is not the same as marriage, and should not be accepted as so. Also the article about gay behaviour being unnatural is not true (this is also a contravercial topic whats natural and unnatural), there are animals that resort to gay behaviour. Prabhupada comments on this somewhere in vedabase. But thats another issue i think. I think Joshua's point was that we look in to it and find a solution rather than condone it by acceptance.

Haribol prabhu here are some references to the sources of prasad being benifited. master or teacher's wife, guroh patni. Brahmani, the wife of a brahmana. Atma-mata guroh patni brahmani raja-patnika. And the queen, the wife of the king. Dhenu, cow; dhenur dhatri, maidservant, nurse. Because it was also formerly the practice, rich man, or mother is not unable to suck breast milk. So they used to employ young girls who has also children. Otherwise there is no milk supplied. So that is also mother. As Krsna took Putana as mother... Putana came to kill Krsna, smearing poison over her breast. And Krsna sucked the milk and her life also. But Krsna took her as (His) her mother. This is Krsna. Krsna did not take the black side. The intention was to kill Krsna, Putana came. But who can kill Krsna? That is not possible. But Krsna thought Himself as obligation, that "I have sucked her breast. So she is My mother. She must be given the position of mother." So Putana, after being killed, she was given the same opportunity as Mother Yasoda. This is Krsna. Bhava-grahi-janardanah. Any way you serve Krsna, it will be accepted. Not any way. I mean to say, we should serve Krsna according to regulative principle. Still, some way or other, unknowing or knowingly, if you render some service, that is called ajnata-sukrti. Ajnata means without your knowledge you are advancing in spiritual life. That is called ajnata-sukrti. You do not know. But the system is so nice... HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada The pure devotees always serve Krsna with great love and affection, for He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Supersoul of every living entity. It is concluded therefore that even a little energy expended in the service of the Lord gives one immense transcendental profit. This is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: svalpam apy asya dharmasya. Devotional service in Krsna consciousness is so sublime that even a little service to Krsna, knowingly or unknowingly, gives one the greatest benefit. The system of worshiping Krsna by offering flowers from a tree is also beneficial for the living entity who is confined to the bodily existence of that tree. When flowers and fruits are offered to Krsna, the tree that bore them also receives much benefit, indirectly. The arcana process, or worshiping procedure, is therefore beneficial for everyone. Krsna is worshipable by great demigods like Brahma and Lord Siva, and Putana was so fortunate that the same Krsna played in her lap as a little child. The lotus feet of Krsna, which are worshiped by great sages and devotees, were placed on the body of Putana. People worship Krsna and offer food, but automatically He sucked the milk from the body of Putana. Devotees therefore pray that if simply by offering something as an enemy, Putana got so much benefit, then who can measure the benefit of worshiping Krsna in love and affection? One should only worship Krsna if for no other reason than so much benefit awaits the worshiper. Although Putana was an evil spirit, she gained elevation just like the mother of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is clear that the cows and the elderly gopis who offered milk to Krsna were also elevated to the transcendental position. Krsna can offer anyone anything, from liberation to anything materially conceivable. Therefore, there cannot be any doubt of the salvation of Putana, whose bodily milk was sucked by Krsna for such a long time. And how can there be any doubt about the salvation of the gopis who were so fond of Krsna? Undoubtedly all the gopis and cowherd boys and cows who served Krsna in Vrndavana with love and affection were liberated from the miserable condition of material existence. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Prabhupada: Huh? Yes. Machine was not made for chanting Hare Krsna, but we are utilizing it so that the machine-maker may be benefited. Because we employ everyone's energy to Krsna. So by his energy he has manufactured this machine, so we are employing in Krsna's service so that he may be benefited, purified. We are showing him the mercy. Just like one flower picked up from a plant offered to Krsna is offering benefit to that plant. Because his energy is in the service of Krsna. Similarly, the person who has manufactured this machine, when it is employed in Krsna consciousness business, he's benefited. Indirectly, we are giving him opportunity, although he does not know it. But his energy is being utilized for Krsna. We offer prasadam, the same principle. A man does not know about Krsna. But he wants to eat. By eating, he'll be gradually Krsna conscious. So you have... Our business is to give opportunity to all forgotten souls to be engaged in Krsna consciousness, today or tomorrow. The boys and girls who have come to this society, they have accumulated in that way, knowingly or unknowingly, some Krsna conscious qualification, and therefore they have taken this opportunity. (Pause) We have no dog friend. (Laughs) HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada YS Vijay

"Those cow protection communities haven't developed with a few exceptions. It is hard to be simple in kali-yuga. "Yes he preached cow protection. So why don't we do it? It is not that we memorize his statements and then turn around and repeat them to society without first following them. He is preaching TO US." Yes prabhu, he is, but to develop a farm community we have to have dedicated members and that requires preaching, especially in the west. A little patience and help would be nice (-:, yes its been 35 years, it may take 350 years. "Yes and I have really seen this misused. Prostitution rings for Krsna. Organized stealing for Krsna. What about hamburger stands for Krsna?" this is slightly different to that, srila prabhupada also consumed milk and it is encouraged in sastra, it is offerable the question is should we or should we not. And its not so clear cut, if prabhupada allowed the use of slaughtered cow skin for the lords pleasure then y not milk. ""if we all gave up drinking milk". I am not speaking to all I am speaking to you." If your speaking to me personally, i do drink milk, i also give 10 percent of my wealth to krishna, including the cow shelter in london as well as encourage my family to do so. The temple here are currently trying to get planning permission for europes biggest cow proection shelter, with laxmi already raised but the concil coming in the way again. I appreciate your position on the issue, and maybe you are right, maybe i should stop, and maybe if my heart was softer i wouldnt see things not through just logic, but we should also be wary that some may actually relise the potency of offering milk to the lord and thus them and the cow becoming purified, i certainly dont and am not sure how benificial my offerings of milk are to the cow. Something to ponder, and ask devotees on. "Don't wait for the institution as a whole to decide. The GBC won't die in your place. We must become pilots of our own planes." I agree under sadhu guru and sastra, and yes paramatma (-:

In sb 8.6.12 srila prabhupada recomends we drink milk in kaliyuga, i dont know of one quote where he says that we should stop doing that, he continued and so did his dicsiples, he considered preaching the answer, hoping farm communities would develop. At the same time he preached cow protection. My emphasis was that a real change can only come about through preaching. Also you will only be reducing your karma by not having milk, it doesnt make the slightest bit of difference to the slaughter industry by us not consuming milk, surplus is produced every year at least in europe, there are quotas given to each country which limits production and tax breaks are given to farmers as too much milk is produced and thus not enough profits. Milk is used to create more profits from the prime activity of slaughter. We dont wear leather as its not recommened by prabhupada or scripture. I agree krishna acted as an example, not just in cow protection but many other things (he gave gita as the ultimate compassion for living entities), by us drinking or not drinking the milk wont protect the cow any more or less aslong as there are meat eaters. Krishna conciousness being spread through society will result in cow protection. Just like using money in krishnas service that the giver of the money is purified so is the cow when offering the milk. I also understand that some devotees feeling compassion on mother cow will not drink the milk of that cow knowing what it has been through. But because a devotee drinks milk and speaks of cow protection he is a hypocrite i do not agree, thus prabhupada was a hypocrite and his diciples whom he trained, and even if you think that (i dont think you do) it is hypocracy unless you give evidence that by stopping drinking of milk it will significantly cut cow slaughter then you have no right to say it is hypocracy. If you can demonstarte that actually cows will be saved if we all gave up drinking milk, then i will give it up and stop offering it to the lord as i then agree with you we are adding to cow slaughter.

I had this conversation with a few devotees one who is a conditional vegan. A vaishnava is naturally compassionate to the sufferings of others. However the whole world is suffering, if we can become KC ourselves and engage everything in krishnas service that is our only real solution, everthing else temporary relief from karma. Cow protection is a mode of goodness activity and not spirtual (unless done for krishnas pleasure) above that activity is that of serving humans, protection of women, children and bramhanas as this human form of live is even rarer. The highest welfare work is to spread krishna conciousness, everything else is plugging the holes. There are millions of humans starving on this planet, we by investing our money in banks, working in corporations, buying shoes, jakets made in thrid world countries by humans working in atrocious conditions, companies causing pollution destroying peoples habitats in africa and asia through the building of damns etc these are all major problems and we are contributing to it. However as devotees we still use all these facilities, and try and engage it in the highest welfare acvtivities, to the degree our surrender is pure that degree we are relieved in the karma. Its like people who try and feed the poor and give medicines, or those that think long term and try and stop pollution which will cause misery to everyone. Each one thinks that there cause is higher. We also offer polluted vegtables to krishna gentically modified, drenched in pesticides which kill animals and pollute the rivers. We can not fight all of these as srila prabhupada says these are all ism's the root cause of all of this is mans conciousness and his greed to exploit material nature, there fore we should not overly try and takle the individual symptoms, but if we really care then try and takle the root which is krishna conciousness. Prabhupada was not very much concerned for all these wrokers unions, animal rights campaigners, womens right campaigners, earthquakes in different countries, floods he knew what the root cause of ALL these problems are and therefore concerntrated on that, he was not short sighted fixed on a particular problem. A devotee might say to me i should be concerned about womens rights(womens protection is highly regarded by arjuna in bg krsna smashes it (A society is judged also by how children women aged and brahmins are treated), or concerned with recycling and buy only biodegradable goods, reycycle my papers because he feels caring for mother bhumi is a high priority (so many village people are dying as a result of river pollution), he may feel that the future of all humans and animals rely on this fact. Anyway not to go on, but all of these things are good to do as a vaishnava is compassionate but lets not lose sight of the real root of the problems, real compassion means krishna conciousness. Changing the hearts of greedy governemnts, co-orpartaions, and society in general will get rid of the ills of society, everything else is either karma reduction or sentimental short sighted compassion (if done with out the root cause in mind). we use donated money form gambiling or other sinful activies all the time and purify it by using it in krishnas service, all things allowed to be used in krishnas service we use, most sources are directly or inderictly from illicit activties. However if we are not offering to krishna sincerly then we will get the karma for it then better to do damage limitation and stop as many things which are considered morally bad. My 2 bits worth

"Evidence has been presented time and time again on these forums and elsewhere as to the authenticity of the forecast of Swaminarayan Bhagwan's arrival on this Eart. Yet each and every time the Hare Krshnas dismiss it as adulteratation of the Scriptures!! A clear case of, if it conforms to your own beliefs and preconceived notions then accept it - if not, then the scriptures are adulterated!!" I have not dismissed your evidence, nor have i accepted it until i get it validated by someone who has a greater grasp of sanskrit than i do. Again i think you fail to grasp my simple point that it is a risk for me or any other vaishnava, to recomend someone to be a follower of swaminaryana based on 1/2 verses with references to his parents which may or may not be accurately translated, and therefore recomend the swaminaryana movements. I would rather recomend them to chant the names of ram, krishna, narayana as these have thousands of clear verses in the vedas. I find it starnge that an avtari arrives in kaliyuga and vyasdeva who wrote the scriptures for the thick inhabitents of kaliyuga has hardly any mention of him (if any). "It is unfair, ignorant and indeed arrogant, to reject and dismiss any faith or religion or following without sufficient prior knowledge. Study the philosophy and teachings of the Swaminarayan Sampraday and then share your views, otherwise the time is better spent singing the glory of Lord Shree Krshna...." I have been bought up in the isso sampradya of swaminarayan, i have read vachanamrita and sikshapatri and many lectures by the swaminaryan saints, recently I had a discussion with madhvapriya swami when doing a bhagvat katha at the local swaminaryana temple which my parents go to. I dont claim to be a scholor in the swaminaryan mission but do have some knowledge. But your right my time is "better spent singing the glory of Lord Shree Krshna...."

"This is a pathetic discussion...the Hare Krshna people have failed to grasp the most simplest of concepts put forward by Swaminarayan (one word) followers...and which is why we keep going round and round in circles." Sorry I really dont understand what your saying here.. "followers"???? is that a justification for worshipping someone???? "At the end of the day, Hare Krshna ppl are going to refuse to accept anyone other than Krshna or Caitanya as God, no matter what logical arguments or evidence that is presented. Yet with so much ignorance they believe the Holy Shikshapatri instructs worhsip of Shree Krshna ONLY as the Hare Krshna's know Him - isn't that bigotted and narrow minded?" We also accept vishnu, narayana, rama, vamana nrsinga etc as god. GOD is revealed by sastra his worship is revealed by sastra, not sentiments of people. Even demigod worship is recognised as athorised in sastra, but the worship you talk about, your mantra etc according to sastra is a concoction. You may think im being bigotted and narrow minded but these are the statements of srimad bhagvatam. We have to see through the eye of scripture, not sentiment. "Surely the Geeta states "Whenever there is decline in the righteousness, O Bharata! I manifest myself.For saving the righteous and for destroying the evil-doers and for restoring the righteousness I am born in every age." I would recommend the Hare Krshnas read Raymon B Williams' biography and THEN give an opinion - rather than presenting an argument based on sheer ignorance." Yes the gita states that, but that verse is used by so many bogus incarnations like sai baba etc. If there are specific verses stating that swaminaryana is the source of all incarnations or the swaminarayan mantra anywhere in scripture, then i would be interested to learn of that. Vyasdev wrote the scriptures for us and gave predictions of up and coming incarnations cos he knew us people in kaliyuga are really thick so out of compassion he gave us the process of getting back to godhead very clearly what mantras to chant whom to worship, now if your saying actually what he wrote doesnt matter as you know better then I rather accept vyasadeva and our scriptures. "Raymon B Williams' biography " Again ive read many stories and biogrophies by followers of sai, and some other baba in south india who claims he is also god and stories by his followers, these guys arent my athority, vyasadvea and the hindu/vedic scriptures he wrote are my athority as they come form a perfect source. "rather than presenting an argument based on sheer ignorance." Are arguments are based on sastra not peoples biographies or sentiment. "The Hare Krshnas can deny what they want, but the underlying reason is not fact or objective reasoning, but moreso irsha, matsar and dvesh bhava." Dont try to imagine peoples motives. GOING BACK TO MY SIMPLE POINT - We worship either narayan/krishna/rama/nrsinga all these are clearly presented in hindu/vedic scripture everywhere. Vyas gives us the way and mantra to worship them. Vyas the giver of the vedas garantess in scripture that this process worship will take us back home, So do the great acaryas in the past few thousand years say this. No risk. YOU WORSHIP SOMEONE NOT CLEARLY MENTIONED in vedas, not only that, you worship him as avtari, you use a mantra and worship not recommended by Vedic scripture or any previous acarya in the past 2000 years. Risky. Simple. Is that not logical?

"Yes, I have taken this message in the wrong way, it is the only way it can be taken. You are using such harsh worlds such as spiritual sucide, indirectly to the Swaminarayan sampradhy. Whar right do you have (*Vijay) to express your opinion in such a such a nature." Its not my opinion, its stated in the bhagvatam in the 12th canto as well as many other scriptures that vedic religion will degenerate through out kaliyuga, with people worshiping imitator gods, discarding the culture given by the vedas inventing thier own mantras etc. Therefore i am expressing the clear opinion of vyas and many other acaryas. Believe me the scriptures use much harsher words than spirtual suicide, please take notice. (Even in vachanamrita it critices the followers who believe in nirakar bramhan) Harshness is used to drill into our sentimental heads the importance of what is being said. "You mayby a follower of Lord krishna, even i have SOME reverence for him but this does not mean the every Hindu IN THE WORLD HAS TO WORSHIP kRISHNA- what are you talking about." I never said everyone has to worship krishna, but worship some, any form of vishna tattva you are garunteed liberation according to the vedas. Thats rama, narasinga, vamana, krishna, vishnu, narayana and many more MENTIONED IN VEDA. All these are bonifide according to sastra, there are bonafide mantras and worship to attain them exponded in puranas, ithasasa's and the sruti sastras. But its up to you if you dont want to take the garunteed menthod even advocated by the person you worshp and want to take a completely different path prone to many interpretations then thats your risk. "And to your your indirect reference that Bhagvan Swminarayan having no spiritual authority- in the Bhagvat Gita, Lord Keishna states that he lives within Purna Purshottam- This is Lord Swaminarayan." Again more sentiment and ignorance being propogated - no where does it say krishna lives in purna purshatam, he says he is the ultimate pursha nothing is higher or equal to him repeatedly to get that clear in our heads, and definately no swaminarayana mentioned. "Faith in one paticular God i no beter than the other-Always remember this and frome now- never post such negative comments " I rather believe whats in shastra as a person in kali yuga our tendency is to be easily cheated, as we have imperfect sences and therefore a tendency to be illusioned. God himself says in the bhagvatam and gita that we should use our intelligence to discriminate as it is not recomended that we worship anything and anyone due to a feeling. We have to go by the torchlight of knowledge which begins with following scripture given to us by vyas. If your buying a house you will not just buy cos you've been told to, or you like the colour of it, you will do so much research to find out if the insides are okay, if theres damp, legal checks arrange finance, research the area, so when we are trying to worship god we must be even more vigilant and careful, finding out what scripture. Try and follow the scripture as it clearly states, not pick and choose trying to find places to justify what you are doing. All our acts have to be sanctioned by scripture otherwise it comes under vikarma (Acts not athorised by scripture) which leads us to the lower planets, so our mantras our worship has to be athorised by scripture, not something we sentimentally believe is correct. Again in scripture many mantras are given that will lead us to the spitual kingdom of god - GARANTEED by veda, previous acrayas and even your founder, now if you choose to ignore scripture and choose something not in scripture which as i mentioned is especiually written for us then thats your risk. change the theory to suit the facts, not change the facts to fit your theory. Haribol

"There lie many insecurities in the way the Hare Krshna people here have repeatedly attacked, not just here, but on other forums AND at university talks AND in other forms of media the validity of the Swaminarayan sect. When I talk of the Swaminarayan sect I EXCLUDE BAPS as that is something completely different...more a cult." Its not an insecurity, when we give a talk it is based on scripture, in the bhagvat gita krishna says the less intelligent follow worship the demigods we repeat that. The vedas were written for kaliyuga souls we repeat that, in kaliyuga many so called 'gods' will appear, that are not authorised by scripture we repeat that. In kaliyuga the names and worship of krishna and his stated incarnations (krishna that appeared 5000 years ago) are the only way to attain krishna. If someone says some god appeared 200 years ago and they say he is "higher (avtari) than krishna then the burden is on them to give vedic evidence, all throughout the vedas the chanting of krishnas name is mentioned not this other mantra, so of course at our talks we will state that. "Therefore, wherever Shree Krshna is mentioned, as for instance in the Shikshapatri, it is referring to Sahajand Swami Himself. Let's not forget, one of Swaminarayan's birth names was indeed 'Krshna'." The first verse states that i worship radha and krishna who reside in glokaka vrindavan, that is refering to original krishna not himself swaminaryan resides in aksardham (not mentioned in scripture), i have no idea what methodology you use to come to a conclusion that the siksapatri is talking about swaminarayan sometime and sometimes krishna. He states in verse 108 that krishna is the source of all incarnations, what do you interpret this as? "However, it appears that there remains insecurity within the minds of many Hare Krshnas towards their own faith resulting in the constant, and I mean CONSTANT, challenging of the Swaminarayan faith. Maybe theres a bit of 'green' among them but grow up and learn to overcome this 'your God my God, your faith, my faith' business" We challenge anyone who claims that a man is higher than krishna without giving evidence for it, we challenge anyone who says that "actually the swaminarayan mantra is the highest even though it is not mentioned in scripture" The scriptures say the only way to become liberated in kaliyuga is chant the names of krishna, using the mantras mentioned in scripture. We have limitied sences and intelligence especially in kaliyuga, its easy to become cheated so let us follow simply whats in scripture, your risk, if you think what you have even though contridicting veda which is written for us is the truth. "grow up and learn to overcome this 'your God my God, your faith, my faith' business" Krishna in the gita didnt say any god or any faith and worship are equal, he said theres faith in mode of ignorance,passion and goodness. Worship a man you become a man, worship a ghost you go to a ghost, worship demigods you go to demigods, worship him you go to his abode where you never have to return. so he made distinctions between faiths and differing 'gods', whats your problem if we repeat the words of gita at our talks. In an age where people dismiss the scriptures ment for us where the people have limited intelligence it has to be drilled in. I dont care if you worship ram chant his matra, narayan, or any other bonifide incarnation, at least we are sure they are god, why take the risk worshipping anyone else when we know these to be god already.

Babhru prabhu, if i do come half way round the world next year I would much rather discuss krsna katha and take as much association from you and others as i can, the last thing i would want is to spoil my journey discussing useless politics, when theres so many senior vaishnavas there to learn from, i already have enough gunk in me as it is, thanks for the warning though.

Sounds like you have a good mood there, I personally have no problem working with and aquiring knowledge form any humble sinciere vaishnava whether he is in GM, pusti marg or a sri vaishnava, I do have a problem with vaishnavas who constantly minimise my siksa guru srila prabhupada and others who i take to be my guru as lesser and even deviants without any grounds except for the fact that they are not going to thier guru. I will stay away from these types of devotees for my own good as i will end up offending them and maybe others. I ended up using the siksa guru book by sivarama swami as there were devotees claiming that all gurus in iskcon must listen to another senior devotee else they are deviants, which i felt not fair and not backed up by enough evidence hence using arguments to give the other side. I personally have a friend who I dont see much now since he lives in india and he is a sanyas diciple of narshinga maharaj, and I do service at an iskcon temple in london where diciples of other maths also come and do service who generally dont minimise prabhupada and other vaishnavas (although i once debated someone who was doing this to new commers comming to the temple, ie prabhupada hasnt given the full truth, these gurus are all neophyte etc I forget his name he was suppose to be quite senior but forgot the ettiquite of the temple). Anyway that discussion we've already had. And if I do come to hawaii (is that right?) It would be a pleasure to visit and ill keep away the siksa guru book if you dont make sweeping generalisations (-:

"if you and your organization build a temple with a feeling like that.. i vote instead for a swimming pool, tennis field and soccer field.. and i am considering also the idea of a cinema and discoteque.. it will be surely less offensive" Whatever, if you want me to clarify what ive said then say so, dont try and fill the gaps with your imagination.

My point is a very simple one, I havent ask you to pretend to not have experience etc just dont use that as a justification for generalised critisism. Im sure you know what goes on in iskcon and your may be very learned, and you know what has gone on, and you may know about iskcon spin, im really not concerned with that. The point is that is no excuse for your statements about the management on a ego trip. Very simple. And believe me I dont agree with everything iskcon has said and done and im very familiar with the turbulent history and mistakes of some present and past iskcon leaders but thank you for your concern. this is drifting form the simple point. "Do you also object when they criticize other devotees, such as Narayana Maharaja or others who preach outside ISKCON, or who have been driven from ISKCON by the character, policies, and activities of some of ISKCON's leaders? From what I've read here, I doubt it. " Again off the topic whether i object to some iskcon leaders or not, your point was out of order. Anyway if you want to know - I've always questioned my superiors over issues. I also make devotees aware of the need to to not follow blindly the cheaters will get cheated in or outside of iskcon, when i hear critisism of any senior vaishnava in or outside iskcon i do object to it. Im in favour of what the truth is not fiction or someones speculation of others intentions. "some of ISKCON's leaders? From what I've read here, I doubt it" At least your not making a sure statement this time. Fortunately your wrong, I also choose to stay away from certain vaishnavas although i am happy to see them when i do, and I do not tolerate unfounded critisism of vaishnavas either from iskcon or from GM. "It's really interesting to read a "sincere" apology that is then retracted by justifying the so-called offense. I don't need to be psychic to understand the truth here. Yes, you're better than I am; take comfort in that. " I know your a good reader and writer of rebutals as youve said before but may be your reading too deeply in to this, my point is i sincerly feel bad, but not so bad that il not say anything to vaishnava apradha. Simple. "I don't need to be psychic to understand the truth here. Yes, you're better than I am; take comfort in that. " I dont know where youre getting that from sounds quite childish to me, ive never thought your better than me in the first place. We're all spirit soul on different journeys to krishna at different levels learning from each other in this life youve been given alot of mercy make the best use of it. Im confused of how you got "you're better than I am; take comfort in that." is that humility or sarcasm or something else? Anyway stiking to the point of all this and not getting distracted by all the side issues you are raising for some reason. My point is simple you have no right no matter what you have seen and how naive and ISKCONzied you think I am and the rest of the issues you have raised, to critise devotees when you have no idea (or you have some vague idea) who they are, and speculate on thier intentions as doing service for egoistic purposes. You dont have that Adhikar. You'll probably bring up more side issues about my intentions etc, well think what you like my point is simple. Dont generalise a group of devotees trying to do a service lumping them all together (not fully knowing who they are) And then critisising them by making up thier intentions and motives for them. Very simple for the simple. "But note that the real consequence of criticizing devotees is not leprosy or being chased by mytical buzz-saws, but Bhakti-devi's ignoring us and giving us something other than Krishna prema (usually things like kanaka, kamini, and pratistha instead)." Im gald you know the philosophy behind critisism but unfortunately you either dont know when your doing it or think your justified to do it for some reason or another. This has been my main/only issue.

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Thank you prabhu for sharing that, at least some devotees have actually looked into the facts rather than perpetuating ill feelings on rumours and myths.

"my initial response was a general observation about the way the project has been handled" I think it was way tooo general and of course its an accusation how can it not be? "I'm sure it makes them feel important, and having this meeting with models, drawings, and attendees with deep pockets makes them feel as though they're accomplishing something. In those years, though, many other "spiritual" organizations have built enormous, impressive temples all over the world. So has ISKCON, but this one seems to be a big boondoggle. Perhaps it's the concept--the idea that it has to be bigger and flashier than any other temple in Gauda, even looking down on the temple Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati built at the Yogapitha" "I'm sure it makes them feel important, and having this meeting with models, drawings, and attendees with deep pockets makes them feel as though they're accomplishing something." Do you actually have any idea who is involved? who are your critisisms aimed at? "I didn't criticize anyone, whether Pankajanghri, Ambarisha, Pancaratna, Jayapataka Maharaja, or anyone." You must be joking how do you know they arent involved how do you know you didnt critisise them? As you have said "I don't know who specifically has done or said anything in particular; I'm not an ISKCON insider." So you dont know anything yet you group everyone in the managemnet as one and give your specific idea of thier motivations via your specualtion based on the strangth of your years of experience even though admiting not knowing. " do note, though, that you didn't take issue with my response to the project until I took exception to your calling Muralidhar, and others who aren't as enthusiastic about the project, envious. " First thing as ive already said i havent branded murli envious (and definately not anyone else) if the shoe fits it fits, its none of my business, it up to him if he or you think that theres any truth to what im saying and it applies then take it if not dont worry about it. Hey were all envious to some extent else we wouldnt be in this material world. Yes i did reply to him and not you because he agreed with you and added his own bit. I didnt want to reply to you as im already aware of your initial generalisations last time we spoke, about gramatical mistakes, puntuation etc and knowing the intentions of sivarama swami (more phycicness) and me being a junior and you having so many years of experience your allowed to do that.Therefore i didnt really feel like speaking to you. Any way it ticked me off when you started talking about murlis years of experience and how i reflect bad on my seniors blah blah. Well what you say reflects bad on juniors like me and your own seniors. Thinking you have the adhikar to critisise people you admit you dont know anything about or what theyve said yet find an ill motive is not vaishnava behaviour. Im not offended but am ticked of that you use your seniority and your so-called years of expeiernce to some how give you the adhikar to make unsubstantiated critisisms especially as I know some of the devotees involved, you lump them toghether with your speculations. This isnt the stock market or horses where you specultae what is happening these are vaishnavas, krishnas devotees, at least have some knowledge of who your critisizing and who has said what before you critise everyone in such a general way, be careful of vaishnava aparadha. Anyway I also know that i shouldnt be speaking to senior devotees in such ways as im living off thier prashad, but i should also not tolerate speculated, unjustified, overgeneralised critisism of devotees some of which i know and highly respect they are very nice and humble devotees who genuinely want to serve srila prabhupada. Anyway enough of this, I do sincerley apologise for any offences I do feel bad everytime I speak to senior devotees in this way, but this is outwieghed by the annoyance i feel when they critise other devotees. Im sure not many on this thread are offended by your words but thats besides the point, its about whether unsubstantiated general critisism like that are justified or not. Hare Krishna

My point has never been that you shouldnt speak out against offensive vaishnavas who trample on books, or offend vaishnava's. Nor speak out against vaishnava's who advocate bull dozing samadhis to build a temple, nor speaking out against those so-called prabhupada men who offend other vaishnava's. My point is that do not generalise all vaishnavas who are trying to manage according to prabhupadas will as the same and speculate that they are doing something with ill motives. If you have substantiated reason and evidence then do so. There may be advanced vaishnavas and less advanced vaishnavas involved in the management to generalise all of them saying they want to feel important making 'big and flashy' temple, 'fidling' round with models, and big budgets making them selves feel good overshadowing other gaudiya temples. This is not vaishnava this is suspicion and speculation and plane wrong to generalise like that. Devotees like ambrisha prabhu who have also spent more that 30 years assiting prabhupada in whatever way he can, like pankajangeri prubhu spending his life dedicated to worshipping the lord are also involved, please be specific in your critisims, with your machine gun of words you may end up critising those that do not deserve it. You also seem to be well respected on this forum so you have a responsibility and power to influence others. What you do other will follow. So more reason to be carefull. You do not need to Jump in to any echo chamber of unreserved praise prabhu, just dont fall into the chamber of unreservered, unjustified and generalised critisim of vaishnavas. As you said "The best monument will be our purified hearts, our demonstrating such character that people will find that irresistible". Lets try to be like that.