vijay

Also I think the problem was that dritrashtra didnt want to know, where as arjuna did. Dhitrastra had hope that he can enjoy later, arjuna didnt. Eventually I think after the war while dhitrastra was staying in yudishtirs palace, vidhura came, and in a very harsh way, indirectly calling dhitrastra the family dog living of the charity of those that defeated him and killed his sons, blind as well as deaf, shameless, and other such harsh words, made him realise that he has no hope of happiness, vidhura showed him that his ambitions now can never be fulfiled, after hearing this dhitratra went in to the forest immediately, and through yoga left the material world, turning his body in to ashes. So as long as we have hope that we can enjoy here seperately we can never take in knowledge whole heartedly. In another example, we usually say that we shouldnt pour fuel in to the fire as it will only become stronger, so generally our process is to reduce the fuel over time, thus reducing our hope for happiness in this world. Once narada muni said to a king (i forgot the name) try and enjoy fully as this king was enjoying in a regulated way and felt no lack in his life (maybe the problem with complacency in mode of goodness). So the enjoying in full force lead to fustration and thus the king had the oppertunity to listen deeply at that time (the one in distress) it can be likened to a pendulum where on one side is fustration and the other enjoyment we are always going back and forth. The best time to understand deeply spirtual topics is when one is near fustrated with material life. Also if you pour enough fuel on to the fire then it seems to go out for a while however it comes back full force later (hence not recomended). Just a thought

You raised a good point. In a class i heard recently by a devotee, he said that 2 people heard the gita(technically 3) when it was spoken by krishna, namely arjuna and dhitrashtra, for arjuna it changed his conciousness, but for ditrastra it hardly did anything. Just the same as when we sit in class 2 people will hear the same thing but it will change one persons life, but the other will come out at best thinking it was a nice class but no further than that. I guess we get out what we want. "When he heard that some of the gopis, simply by concentrating on Krsna as their paramour, became freed from all contamination of material birth and death, he said,... " This applies to the gopis who had a material birth, but those that are already liberated i guess would not have a "material birth".

This seems to explain it that some are materially embodied coming to the platform of pure love after being conditioned. I cant believe I read straight past the answers. I only read this two days ago but didnt click. chapter 29 krsna book The gopi associates of Krsna, who assembled in the place where Krsna is appearing, are from different groups. Most of the gopis are eternal companions of Krsna. As stated in the Brahma-samhita, ananda-cin-maya-rasa-pratibhavitabhih: in the spiritual world the associates of Krsna, especially the gopis, are the manifestation of the pleasure potency of Lord Krsna. They are expansions of Srimati Radharani. But when Krsna exhibits His transcendental pastimes within the material world in some of the universes, not only the eternal associates of Krsna come, but also those who are being promoted to that status from this material world. The gopis who joined Krsna's pastimes within this material world were coming from the status of ordinary human beings. If they had been bound by fruitive action, they were fully freed from the reaction of karma by constant meditation on Krsna. Their severe painful yearnings caused by their not being able to see Krsna freed them from all sinful reactions, and their ecstasy of transcendental love for Krsna in His absence was transcendental to all their reactions of material pious activities. The conditioned soul is subjected to birth and death, either by pious or sinful activities, but the gopis who began to meditate on Krsna transcended both positions and became purified and thus elevated to the status of the gopis already expanded by His pleasure potency. All the gopis who concentrated their minds on Krsna in the spirit of paramour love became fully uncontaminated from all the fruitive reactions of material nature, and some of them immediately gave up their material bodies developed under the three modes of material nature. Maharaja Pariksit heard Sukadeva Gosvami explain the situation of the gopis who assembled with Krsna in the rasa dance. When he heard that some of the gopis, simply by concentrating on Krsna as their paramour, became freed from all contamination of material birth and death, he said, "The gopis did not know that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They accepted Him as a beautiful boy and considered Him to be their paramour. So how was it possible for them to get freed from the material condition just by thinking of a paramour?"

I think your statement below may be incorrect. ""purity is the force" was not Prabhupadas saying, it was concocted by a devotee and it is a meaningless statement." Letter Trai "Regarding Pyari Mohan, Ramacarya, and Nanda devi dasi taking second initiation, if you recommend, that's alright. But now they must keep very clean and never break the regulated principles. Purity is the force and if the people in general notice that we are clean both inside and outside that is to our credit. Regarding your last question, yes, you may call Their Lordships Radha-Gopivallabha. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada"

Thats interesting, so the husbands had the material body and the spitual parts danced with krishna, doesnt that then mean that generally the gopis had a material body which they sometimes left? "The bodies of the gopés, which were their husbands’, were lying in bed, but the spiritual parts and parcels of Krsna were dancing with Him. "

I was wondering if anyonme can help, Yesterday I was reading Krishna book, and it said that the gopis have paramatma so they are never seperated from krishna. That raised the question that do the gopis have material bodies that are spirtualised by thier activities, just like gurus bodies. All beings in the spirtual world do not have paramatma that just happens in the material world, so the gopis did not have direct spirtual bodies? Grateful for any insight!

or else krishna will put a wall in the way and the stop will be a nasty crash.

Something I heard, Sex desire is addictive. It has the engine of a ferrari but the breaks of a bike.

Crumudgen, whats the meaning of that then?

Thank you theistji, thats great, ive not seen thgat before in my searches. Hari Hari

Should we be worshipping ganesa? I found this on vedabase. Is he a vaikuntha diety? this is in bhagvatam canto 7. Or does ganesa mean visvaksena or something like that? eet, (m) to offer the Deity food cooked by an uninitiated person, (n) to worship the Deity and offer bhoga to the Deity within the vision of an uninitiated person or non-Vaisnava, (o) to offer worship to the Deity without worshiping Vaikuntha deities like Ganesa, (p) to worship the Deity while perspiring, (q) to refuse flowers offered to the Deity, ® to take a vow or oath in the holy name of the Lord. If one commits any of the above offenses, one must read at least one chapter of Bhagavad-gita. This is confirmed in the Skanda-Purana, Avanti-khanda. Similarly, there is another injunction, stating that one who reads the thousand names of Visnu can be released from all offenses. In the same Skanda-Purana, HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

"A: Inherent in assertions are axiomatic assumptions. An assumption of The Prominent Link, and it could be questioned, and this would form the basis for an interesting discussion, is that Srila Prabhupada would use the words "direct link", "primary link", "prominent link", and "current link" to describe the relationships of the Vaisnavas listed consecutively at the end of the Introduction to Bhagavad-gita As It Is. That is, Srila Prabhupada would describe Narottama dasa Thakur as the direct, primary, current, and prominent link to the disciplic succession for Visvanatha Cakravarti, . . ." I really couldnt figure out what the answer above was saying until you simplified it. Thanks for the facts, has inspired me to read more indepth about our previous acaryas relationships with one another.

"I wish to suggest something. All this mountain of words and thoughts and books and controversy is just a mental cover up that the mind plays on us under maya's direction so that we can avoid Krsna and His devotee and still fool ourselves into thinking that we are sincere seekers of the Absolute Truth. "Oh why can't I see Krsna's devotee? Oh when oh when will he be made known unto me? If not soon I shall dash my self on the rocks below this high cliff." nice analysis.

I see a few ways you can get to the root of this. For those that believe they are in contact with prabhupada directly -ask him For those in contact with caitya guru - ask him. Others can use anuman (logic) based on srila prabhupadas sabda (athoritive statements). Do what srila prabhupada says and get a spirtual master that can explain it, who fits prabhupadas discription of an uttama. This means that we have to be reletively pure to recognise one. (Prabhupada: So Krsna, if you cannot meet Krsna, you can meet with Krsna's representative. Krsna may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad-gita. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. Parampara. Krsna says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam. "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvan manave praha. "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Iksvaku. In this way..." Evam parampara-praptam, there is a disciplic succession. So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Krsna's representative is there. If you talk with the Krsna's representative, then you talk with Krsna. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the, there is a man, departmental-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative. So physically you may not meet Krsna, but in higher stage, you can meet. But accepting that you cannot..., but He, you have to be in contact with His representative. That is coming in disciplic succession. Then you talk with Krsna. ) i prefer the last option to get a conlusive answer to this issue, which means il have to do alot of work on myself before I can recognise and find this vaishnava that i can directly talk to. Haribol

I liked this. Prominent Link: A Comment BY PRABHUPADA DASA EDITORIAL, Mar 29 (VNN) — Dear Prabhus, Hare Krishna! Please accept my respectful obeisances. All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga. It seems that ISKCON has adopted a Diksa successional system after the departure or Srila Prabhupada. This is evidenced by the "who-my-guru-is" designation that appears along with many devotees names. For example, were I a member of ISKCON, I would post my name thus, Prabhupada dasa ACBSP. If I were a disciple of H.H. Dhanavir Gosvami I would post my name like this, Prabhupada dasa HHDG. This convention is seen almost everywhere among ISKCON members. It seems to be the accepted manner of communicating to others who one's Guru is, and, since it is practiced by the devotees it must have been approved by the GBC. Since the GBC is the ultimate managing authority in ISKCON this would then be the official system, a Diksa successional system. If this is not a system authorized by the GBC then one can conclude that the GBC has lost its authority over the members of ISKCON or what it presents is not authoritative and the devotees are simply ignoring it. When I ask a devotee who her or his Guru is one responds by telling me the name of the person who performed the Diksa initiation. It seems that in ISKCON the connection to the Sampradaya is made through the Diksa initiation and that Guru is presented to the world as "my Guru". It is also a fact with overwhelming support in Srila Prabhupada's translations and purports, and thus in the tradtion of the Sampradaya, that one must obey one's Guru and follow his instructions even if they are a personal inconvenience. It is such a strong admonition that many references state that the advancement of a devotee who disobeys the instructions of the spiritual master is stopped and even covered over. One's Guru is obviously that Guru who has initiated one into the Sampradaya and has taken charge of that persons spiritual life and to whom the disciple owes allegiance. There are no references to any philosophy or religious principle that a disciple has the option of disobeying one's Guru and obeying one's parama Guru, or someone else instead, simply based on the expression of "feeling more inspired by another." There are sufficient references to establish that one's initiating Guru is also the deciding factor in who one's shiksha gurus may or may not be. One may be profoundly inspired and moved by one's parama guru or ones predecessor guru, but one is still duty bound to obey one's "immediate initiating Guru". If this is not the system of disciplic succession then anyone can follow anyone they happen to "feel" like following and there is no meaning to the word disciplic succession, [the word disciple meaning one who follows the instruction of an accepted authority] This leaves the door open for a so-called disciple being free to pick and choose who to obey or disobey simply on "perceptions" of inspiration at the time. Of course one need not obey if that Guru has fallen, but, if the Guru is not fallen, and one has taken initiation from him one must follow as that is one's prominant and "only" link to the parampara. One link is connected to the one before and the strength of the chain is passed through the links. It is not authorized for me to say, "I am more inspired by Srila Bhaktivinoda, so I am now disobeying Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada and calling myself the disciple of Srila Bhaktivinoda. What this would seem to indicate is that, devotees who do not want to strictly follow the instructions of their initiating spiritual master [the person they are in contract with], but jump over and begin to say, "my Guru is Srila Prabhupada, he is my prominent or more important link", have not fully understood the instructions of Srila Prabhupada. He is saying, "obey your Guru", the devotees are putting their Gurus initials after their names, thus telling the world that their Guru is so and so and, therefore, since "I am his disciple I am prepared to follow his instructions". If this is the case, and I did not like my Gurus instructions, or I thought I was getting more inspiration from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, I would be authorized to post my name as Prabhupada dasa SBST. Or, if I was "feeling" more inspiration from Srimati Radharani, I could post my name as Prabhupada dasa SR. I could also say I am the disciple of Srila Rupa Gosvami or anyone who happened to inspire me more than than the Guru who initiatied me. Individuals who present the theory that Srila Pabhupada is a more prominent or effective link than the Guru they accepted in the authorized Diksa succession have failed to understand the philosophy and religion of the Sampradaya. They understand even less who think that they can approach Srila Prabhupada directly by avoiding Diksa from his authorized disciples. Instead they make it into a mundane system that can be adjusted to their "feelings or perceptions" of who inspires them more. The system works by the full transfer of the Lords mercy along an unbroken chain of bonafide Gurus, the disciple maturing into a Guru, taking disciples and passing the message along. It works on the principle of successive OBEDIENCE to one's Guru. If one is not willing to offer strict obedience one should not make a pretense of initiation and then later disobey and jump over the head of one's guru. On a final note. If the GBC has in fact established a Diksa system of successon for ISKCON it can be concluded that individuals who support the prominent link misconception are not actually members of ISKCON but of some other organization. Such arrival of opposing conceptions are an indication of the gradual sectarianization of the Sampradaya. In the absence of the GBC doing its duty of maintaining the principles in the Society, due to supporting their personal projects instead, individuals with ideas contrary to the philosphy and religion of the Sampradaya can easily pose themselves as authorities for those who would be blind followers. In many cases one can easily conclude that even the GBC has become a blind follower of such sectarian ideas. It was a common occurance during the time of Srila Prabhupada that a disciple would come, take initiation and then later either leave the organization or concoct a different understanding. The mercy of the Guru is such that everyone is given a chance but that does not guarantee that everyone who comes will understand the essence of the instruction and get its ultimate benefit. Things are really no different now as one sees so many people coming to take initiation from Srila Prabhupada's disciples and then following the same pattern of departure and concoction. The Sampradaya passes from one generation to the next through the chain of submissive aural reception and humble obedience to one's Guru. There may be a host of individuals posing as devotees and struggling to be devotees and, out of this may come a legion of sects and pseudo movments but none of this has any effect on the non-sectarian truth and vision of the Sampradya. With respect and hope of a bright future for ISKCON Prabhupada dasa Adhikari

Prabhupada: So Krsna, if you cannot meet Krsna, you can meet with Krsna's representative. Krsna may not be physically present, but His representative is physically present. You can talk with him. That is the system of Bhagavad-gita. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh. Parampara. Krsna says that "I talked with the sun-god." Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam. "First of all I talked with the sun-god." Vivasvan manave praha. "Then he talked with his son, Manu. Then Manu talked with Iksvaku. In this way..." Evam parampara-praptam, there is a disciplic succession. So if you can be in touch with that disciplic succession, then Krsna's representative is there. If you talk with the Krsna's representative, then you talk with Krsna. Just like in office, there are different departments, and the, there is a man, departmental-in-charge. So if you can talk with that departmental-in-charge, if you can please him, that means you are pleasing the proprietor or director. There is no doubt. Because he is representative. So physically you may not meet Krsna, but in higher stage, you can meet. But accepting that you cannot..., but He, you have to be in contact with His representative. That is coming in disciplic succession. Then you talk with Krsna. It is not difficult. The acaryas are there. Acaryam mam vijaniyam. Krsna says. "All the acaryas," mam vijaniyam, "they are Myself." Navamanyeta karhicit, "Never disregard acarya." Acaryam mam vijaniyam navaman..., na martya-buddhyasuyeta "Do not be envious: 'How he can be? He's ordinary man. How he can be representative?' No. Anyone who is talking of Krsna as Krsna talked, he's Krsna's representative. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Prabhupada says you can not see krishna directly only on the higher sense, same with experiencing prabhupada, (for those who are ritvic) until then we should search for a BONAFIDE physically present guru. Anyway ultimately if we dont endeavour for the truth AND dont get mercy from the vaishnavas and the lord, whether you accept the caitya guru concept, the ritvic concept the prominent link theory or a physically present system (the traditional way) u will be cheated. No matter how sophisticated your theories, observation and words. Bear in mind either a fool or self-realised person thinks he knows for sure the concept of guru (balaram's potency). With our hard endvour and humility and second by this work and humility we get mercy, only then can you understand guru. 101 theories will not help. The begining of spiirtual life is humility, else no actual learning takes place. All mental masturbation without the foundations of the subtle qualitys of humility and sincerity to understand such deep concepts, how far will we get in this debate without the basis?

Prabhu you still have not answered these questions. Please be as clear as you can as i my conditioned intelligence failed to undestand the previous answer. In the post it says "Beyond that, and as described in PL, even if all who serve in the capacity of ISKCON initiating guru were to be mahabhagavatas, my conviction is that they would embrace the PL model. Srila Prabhupada is available to serve as the guru, in the singular sense. Therefore, why would anyone, especially an advanced Vaisnava, want to try to fill a position that is already filled by Srila Prabhupada?" So even if bhaktisidhanta maharaj was the prominent link srila prabhupada even though a mahabhagvat should of accepted BST as the Prominent link? Or if srila prabhupada (hypothetical)decides to come in the linage of iskcon again he should accept the founder acarya prabhupada? "even if all who serve in the capacity of ISKCON initiating guru were to be mahabhagavatas, my conviction is that they would embrace the PL model." How does he come to this conclusion unless he understands the thoughts of mahabhagvats now and in the future?

Diksa has been difined in many ways, i've read prabhupada says the spirtual master who is your prominent siksa guru from him you should accept diksa, (the begining of a process, that connects you formally to the parampara). Ive heard the example that its like a marriage, you may love someone and do all the things a husband and wife will do, but without that formal ceramany the marriage is not recognised. In the same way without diksa we are not connected to the parampara. (all though there are exceptions like gopis etc (-: ). Anyway I dont know to be honest what diksa is even after all these years and probably never understand it, but its recomended by srila prabhupada and sastra and will try and get it from someone who i accept as a primary siksa guru as prabhupada recomends.

"Devotee A learns from Devotee B, who learned directly from Srila Prabhupada. Thus it can rightly be said that Devotee A is a disciple of the disciple of Srila Prabhupada. " Does that mean if devotee A learnt from srila prabhupada and srila prabhupada learnt from BST then A can be said to be a direct diciple of BST? "Devotee A may have many Vaisnavas that he learns from, and thus he has many ""spiritual masters""." These terms are like Kulapavana Prabhu said way too broad to have any discussion upon as they can be interpreted as anything. As you previously said this is someones experience and so I do not see a fault in its ambiguity. Anyway thank you for your answers, Haribol.

Thanks for the article "So, it's not that the term is intrinsically minimizing, but the relationship to the term of many ISKCON devotees may be so. It has been and is known that Srila Prabhupada is everyone's siksa guru. Still, there are many in the movement who barely acknowledge Srila Prabhupada's vyasa-puja, while celebrating in a big way the vyasa-puja celebration of their "real guru" (that is, the devotee who performed their initiation ceremony). " So shouldnt the emphasis be on educating devotees on the qualifications of guru and guru tattva rather than playing with terms like diksa and siksa? im also not sure if i agree with his stance on guru tatva, could you if possible clarify the below questions. Thank you. In the post it says "Beyond that, and as described in PL, even if all who serve in the capacity of ISKCON initiating guru were to be mahabhagavatas, my conviction is that they would embrace the PL model. Srila Prabhupada is available to serve as the guru, in the singular sense. Therefore, why would anyone, especially an advanced Vaisnava, want to try to fill a position that is already filled by Srila Prabhupada?" So even if bhaktisidhanta maharaj was the prominent link srila prabhupada even though a mahabhagvat should of accepted BST as the Prominent link? Or if srila prabhupada (hypothetical)decides to come in the linage of iskcon again he should accept the founder acarya prabhupada? "even if all who serve in the capacity of ISKCON initiating guru were to be mahabhagavatas, my conviction is that they would embrace the PL model." How does he come to this conclusion unless he understands the thoughts of mahabhagvats now and in the future?

"But I have also noticed that everytime one of the ISKCON gurus quits or falls down or otherwise renounces his disciples they always direct the people to take shelter of Srila Prabhupada and others in ISKCON for siksa. It's like now suddenly Srila Prabhupada is available afterall. " Prabhupada is always available for siksa, no? aswell as other devotees, i thought the dispute is whether he's available for diksa.

In the post it says "Beyond that, and as described in PL, even if all who serve in the capacity of ISKCON initiating guru were to be mahabhagavatas, my conviction is that they would embrace the PL model. Srila Prabhupada is available to serve as the guru, in the singular sense. Therefore, why would anyone, especially an advanced Vaisnava, want to try to fill a position that is already filled by Srila Prabhupada?" So even if bhaktisidhanta maharaj was the prominent link srila prabhupada even though a mahabhagvat should of accepted BST as the Prominent link? Or if srila prabhupada (hypothetical)decides to come in the linage of iskcon again he should accept the founder acarya prabhupada? "even if all who serve in the capacity of ISKCON initiating guru were to be mahabhagavatas, my conviction is that they would embrace the PL model." How does he come to this conclusion unless he understands the thoughts of a mahabhagvat?

Haribol, thanks for the clarification prabhu but still confused, "It does not seek to prove or disprove who else is qualified or unqualified to fill this role. Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link simply acknowledges that Srila Prabhupada is available." The question still remains, is srila bhaktisidhanta saraswati still accesable in the same way? or is it just srila prabhupada?

"Conclusion When a person contacts Srila Prabhupada's movement, he has found a spiritual master. He doesn't need to continue looking for a guru, in the sense of the guru who is his primary link to the parampara and main inspiration in spiritual life. By establishing a connection with Srila Prabhupada he has linked with a bona fide spiritual master on the absolute platform in whom he can place unconditional faith and to whom he can securely and completely surrender and render service. " Can we do the same if we come in contact with bhaktisidhanta saraswati thakurs books?

http://www.dipika.org/2003/03/31/sastric.response.to.prominent.link/index.html