vijay

"I have been consistently trying to steer the conversation onto conditional veganism as mentioned by Priyavrata and the powedered milk instruction from Srila Prabhupada. Not once has anyone taking up that discussion. It is the obvious solution. But solutions are not being sought rather excuses for continuing the inexcusable participation in the cow slaughter with a massage conscience." Ive agreed devotees can turn to conditional veganism, it may or may not (shyamsundara prabhu's article) be the "obvious" solution, it may or maqy not do any good but at least its something. But i disagree that this is the only way and if people dont follow it theres something wrong with them attitude, and also of minimising the effects of offering commercial milk as just an excuse (which it may or may not be but besides the philosophical point). Anyway thank you and haribol.

"One thing I've noticed here (as almost everywhere else) is the tendency to want to win this "argument" (actually it's a dispute) rather than use the conversation to uncover the truth." You'r right it became a dispute, Most of us here dont mind someone being a vegan i have no problems with it, but when anyone that doesnt follow that way is labelled as a hypocite (thus the peson thinking they have the truth and critisising) I had problems with that. Therefore presented evidence against this claim, to show that the issue is not so black and white and may be they should be careful. Maybe if the whole thing began as a discussion rather than a rituous statement then it could have been more productive. Isnt submissive inquiry our process? Actually it did start off with a question, but then was overshadowed by theitji's very strong statements. Anyway I think alot of us have learnt alot form this discussion I know I have and I'am grateful. Better go and chant (-:

This article raises a few good points - the mistakes of gita-nagri and new vrindavan, which tried to model them selves on commercial dairy farming (ignoring to some extent bulls, and performance being mesured upon how much milk is delivered) and suggests a solution that is quite hands on. Even though we had an excess of milk which could of been made in to powder and sent to different places, this was achieved through excess breeding, which resulted in bankruputcy due to having to eventually look after a greater herd which eventually didnt give any milk. I read this happened at new vrindavan but not too sure about gita-nagri. http://www.hkrl.com/Land_mnpower.html THE BASICS: Land and Manpower by Kamra devi dasi There are many instances in which Srila Prabhupada asked his disciples to use their intelligence in carrying out his orders. The following are two examples: The idea submitted by you is very nice. I have given my 100% approval, and I have given my opinion as above mentioned. Now you can do with intelligence and depend on the supreme will of Krsna. Letter to Cidanananda, Dec. 24, 1968 I'm sure Krsna will give you more and more intelligence in this matter. Letter to Hamsadutta, Jan. 11, 1968 Although I feel very insignificant and devoid of the intelligence that Srila Prabhupada wants us to develop and use, I have had some experience with ISKCON cow protection programs, and thus some ideas and observations which may prove useful in the development of Krsna conscious rural communities. I beg the forgiveness of the assembled devotees for any offense I may unintentionally commit, and beg for the guidance of Srila Prabhupada's sincere followers. I hope that these ideas prove useful, as they have been developed from experience in accord with the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. I would like to present this paper in two parts. The first will be about the practical a community and the second part will give a development of cow protection within ISKCON to date and why it appears that we haven't yet developed what Srila Prabhupada wanted us to develop. Part I In a conversation with Allen Ginsberg in Columbus, Ohio, in May, 1969, Srila Prabhupada stated "If one has got a cow and four acres of land he has no economic problem. That we want to start. He can live independently in any part of the world. Simply he must have one cow and four acres of land. Let the people be divided with four acres of land and a cow...All the factories will be closed." We do not know in what context Srila Prabhupada was instructing Mr. Ginsberg –– if the point was self sufficiency, ugra-karma society, or a basic statement about the importance of the cow. Some of Srila Prabhupada's instructions may appear contradictory to one another, and without minimizing what Srila Prabhupada expected of us I would like to show how this instruction has been overplayed by many persons, and in reality is not possible to fulfill without other factors being present. Four acres and a cow, or five acres and a cow as seen by many nondevotee homesteaders, is not the way to fulfill both practical and philosophical requirements of economic solidity. This instruction -- four acres and a cow, is possible within a certain environment, and I repeat this point to bring emphasis to the fact that I am not trying to decry what Srila Prabhupada told us, only give an overall picture of the circumstances in which it can be fulfilled. My emphasis will be on land use, and I will give a brief explanation of some other factors, also. We have experience in the United States that to keep large animals legally usually requires one acre of land per animal. This is the common legal allowance, which provides no scope for self sufficiency. In this area of the country (North Florida), one cow actually requires three acres for grazing and hay, and this figure is an average for other areas. Soil type, climate, the individual needs of the animal, etc., must be taken into consideration to come up with a more exact figure. Note that this figure is only for forage, and includes no other feed. Thus, the "four acres and one cow" may be realistic if the cow only eats grass and hay and does not reproduce. (Three acres for the cow and one acre for house, garden, gains, etc.) but does not allow for the oxen who are to work the land and make the hay. We know that Srila Prabhupada wanted us to keep and use the oxen. The cow is wonderful and valuable in society. But you should also use the bulls by engaging them in tilling the ground. People may call this the primitive way but it is very practical for engaging the bulls. Let them work in cart loading, transporting, etc. letter to Kirtananda Swami, Jan. 7 1974 Why artificial insemination? We should avoid that. The physiology is, if the semen is more, there comes bull, So take more land and engage them in agriculture, plowing by the bulls instead of the tractor. SP letter to Balavanta, Jan. 7, 1977 For a Sanatanist (a follower of Vedic principles), it is the duty of every householder to have cows and bulls as household paraphernalia, not only for drinking milk, but also for deriving religious principles. SB 1.17.3 Commercially, a milk cow has a calf about every thirteen months to keep her milk production high. A commercial dairy cow is often "burned out" and culled (sent to slaughter) by the age of six years, due to the stress of calving and high milk production. The family cow does not need to be bred every year. Enough milk for at least one family can be provided by a cow bred, and thus having to calve, much less often than the commercial requirements. Of course, how often a cow will be bred depends on the individual cow, her breed tendencies, and other circumstances, but it is safe to say that a family cow can give enough milk for family use by having a calf every two years. We have known of a cow that produced milk for five years after having a calf, but this is extraordinary. Thus, our theoretical four acres will have to support two cows after two years, and thus transgress the limits of grass/hay self-sufficiency. After four years our four acres will have three cows, after six years, four cows (the common legal limit), and after eight years, five cows. It appears that a solitary devotee family on four acres of land would not be able to maintain the four acre/one cow standard due to the necessity of breeding. There would be two recourses -- give the calves to like-minded persons, or give the calves to unlike-minded persons, in which case one will be implicated in cow slaughter, which is condemned by the basic tenets of Krsna conscious philosophy. Either way, a solitary family would have great difficulty maintaining the four acre/one cow standard. And to make things even more complicated, Srila Prabhupada also said that even the poorest of householders keep at least ten cows (SB 1.19.39). However, Srila Prabhupada did not want it to be complicated for us to keep cows. He told us that agrarian lifestyle would make it easier for us to have time to chant Hare Krsna. What is the solution? How do we institute cow protection and take care of the necessary offspring of milk production? Regarding keeping the cows, unless there is sufficient grazing land and cultivation it is very difficult. SP letter to Chandravali, March 28, 1977 For raising crops from the land, how many men will be required? That we must estimate and also for herding the cows and feeding them. We must have sufficient pasturing ground to feed the animals all round. We have to maintain the animals throughout their lives. We must not make any make any program for selling them to the slaughterhouses. That is the way of cow protection. SP letter to Hayagriva, June 14, 1968 The conclusion is obvious, according to Srila Prabhupada. There must be more land than four acres per family for cow protection and many people must seriously take up Krsna conscious cow protection. Srila Prabhupada gave us the example of how it is to be done, although he left it up to us to fill in the details. He asked us to take the example of Gokula: Yes, go on acquiring the surrounding lands and in this way we will establish a local self-governing village, and show all the world a practical example of spiritual life as Krsna Himself exhibited it in Vrndavana. Agriculture and protecting the cows, this is the main business of the residents of Vrndavana, and above all simply loving Krsna. The cows, the trees, the cowherd men and gopis, their chief engagement was loving Krsna, and in New Vrndavana we want to create this atmosphere and thereby show the whole worm how practical and sublime our movement is. SP Letter to Kirtanananda Swami July 27, 1973 In Krsna Book, Volume I page 235, Srila Prabhupada describes how Krsna and His friends took the cows and calves to pasture daily and returned in the evening to the village. In Nectar of Devotion page 254, Srila Prabhupada tells us that Nanda Maharaja had over 1,000,000 cows and that they were well fed, healthy, and even well decorated with cloth and golden ornaments. (In fact, SB 10.5.3 states that Nanda Maharaja gave 2,000,000 cows in charity at the birth ceremony of Krsna! All were well decorated) The key to Vrndavana cow protection, and the key to present day cow protection (along with manpower, as we will discuss in part II), is community pasture. Four acres and a cow has its place, though. If each family in a village is using its own land to develop self sufficiency, thus contributing to community self sufficiency, the village will have a solid economic base. (Self sufficiency is not possible without community -- even the Amish will not try to start a community with less than 12 families. This is another issue that is easy to prove.) Yet the community pasturing grounds are essential. That is the conclusion of part I of this paper. Land must be acquired and used as given in the example of Vrndavana. Although this may be obvious, I hope that I have given a valid explanation. In Gita-nagari on July 15, 1976, Srila Prabhupada toured the farm by foot and by car. To the few fortunate men who were in the car with him, he said "Add some land and let them graze. Don't kill them -- buy land." Nanda Maharaja met Vasudeva in Mathura when he went to pay taxes to Kamsa. Vasudeva inquired from Nanda Maharaja, "In the place where you are living with your friends, is the forest favorable for animals, the cows? I hope there is no disease or inconvenience. The place must be full of water, grass, and other plants." (SB 10.5.26) Srila Prabhupada comments: For human happiness, one must care for the animals, especially the cows. Vasudeva therefore inquired whether there was a good arrangement for the animals where Nanda Maharaja lived. For the proper pursuit of human happiness, there must be arrangements for the protection of cows. This means that there must be forests and adequate pasturing grounds full of grass and water. If the animals are happy, there will be an ample supply of milk, from which human beings will benefit by deriving many milk products with which to live happily. As enjoined in Bhagavad-gita (18.44), Krsi-go-raksya vanijyam vaisya karma svabhavajam. Without giving proper facilities to the animals, how can human society be happy? That people are raising cattle to send to the slaughterhouse is a great sin. By this demoniac enterprise, people are mining their chance for a truly human life. Because they are not giving any importance to the instructions of Krsna, the advancement of their so-called civilization resembles the crazy efforts of men in a lunatic asylum. As an aside, I feel that if we are to follow the example of Vrndavana, we need leadership that takes it as a priority to follow in the footsteps of Nanda Maharaja, the king of the cowherds. If the leadership does not see this necessity, how will this occur? Part II I would like to offer a brief summary of my observations to date in the development of Krsna conscious cow protection. As a society, we have made errors and learned from them in many areas, cow protection is not an exception. I am going to present these things very simply. Cow protection is a concept that we must all understand for the proper functioning of society. 1) A major error was made in the development of Krsna conscious cow protection -- using the dairy industry as an example of what we were supposed to develop. Commercial dairying was, of course, our only example at that time, but it proved to be a poor example, practically and conceptually. In a commercial dairy, the only animals that are maintained are the young females, milking females of a certain standard, and maybe one out of 10,000 bulls who "prove" themselves for artificial breeding. Dairy bulls who will not be used for breeding are raised for veal and are slaughtered at three months of age. Culled cows: culled cows become what is known as "dairy beef." In Krsna conscious cow protection, we never send to slaughter any bull or retired cow, and thus need a system to use and maintain animals, that is not present in the dairy industry. But somehow or other, as a society, we are still making the error of thinking that milk production is more important than ox power, and see milk production as the measure of success of a cow protection program. 2) Due to taking the dairy industry as the example to be followed, we have begun herds by purchasing too many animals for the available land and breeding them all. It has become obvious that this was a mistake, and this is becoming rectified. 3) Although there are some improvements in the rectification of above, the "burden of love" to maintain the great population of cows that were born as the result of our error of understanding of proper cow protection has fallen on an unrealistically small portion of devotee society. These devotees perform under great stress almost single handedly to milk, train and work oxen, and raise the necessary funds for the support and development of the program. 4) Due to the small percentage of devotees actively dedicated to cow protection, and due to the limited amount of land available, the program seemingly stagnates. Potential milk cows are "retired" in their prime, never having been bred or milked, and oxen are often never trained or worked. The potential of the herd is not used, as there is no room for expansion (calves) and not enough manpower to do all that is necessary. 5) All available land at our farms becomes used for retired cows and none for vegetable and grains, which Srila Prabhupada wanted us to produce. 6) And much dedicated manpower either works under unreasonable amounts of stress or gives up due to the unreasonable demands on them by a devotee community that is not educated as to what proper cow protection means and entails. I can only offer as a solution that devotees realize the need for more of us to become educated and involved in cow protection and ox and ox power. Srila Prabhupada stated that in Vrndavana that the basis of varnasrama is cow protection. It is not for only a handful of individuals to provide milk and ox services (ploughing disking, etc.) for the general population. It is urgent for us to realize that this son of centralized program is not the solution to our problems of community development. Every family in the community must begin to take responsibility for at least one animal. Each family that buys land must realize that if it wants at least milk, let alone ox services, it must become active in cow protection. With limited land and manpower, it is unreasonable for every family to demand these things, and the benefits of the existing cow protection program should be enjoyed only by the Deity and by the families directly involved in cow protection and by those who help finance it. In the pastimes of Vrndavana we see great community pasturing grounds, and the milking of the cows and working of the oxen was not put on one family. The village was based on cow protection and using the ox and this was the consciousness -- Krsna and the cows. And of course, I feel I must again state that if we are to have villages based on cow protection, the leadership must take it as a priority, following in the footsteps of Nanda Maharaja. This leadership must inspire the devotees who live in the community to take up cow protection and assist and support those who are already dedicated to this important work.

I believe there was a conversation i sent where srila prabhupada and his dicsiples were discussing it. I think there was a regulation against it, but i dont think it makes much difference. I was watching a documentry on the meat industry, it was horrid how the meat was stored. It was left lying on the floor for days in some cases, i dont see how it would make any difference if the cow died naturally or its neck sliced. I think i read somewhere were there are some in india that take the dead cow and eat its flesh aswell as using the skin to make products, il have to search for it.

An easier to read version http://www.chakra.org/living/SimpJan30_03.html Someone said there are no minimal standards in ISKCON for cow protection, i think they have been introduced last year by this mataji. Improving Our Cow Protection Programs by Hare Krsna devi dasi Posted January 30, 2003 Abstract: Appalled by modern dairy practices, devotees struggle with the question of whether to be vegetarian or vegan. But neither dietary style -- by itself -- fulfills the needed spiritual dimension of actually protecting cows. For that, both must turn to cow protection programs. But many of these are poorly managed and inadequate. Can donors make a difference? The answer is yes -- by understanding basic cow protection guidelines and linking funding increases to program improvements. Devotees in the Gaudiya Brahma sampradaya acknowledge Lord Brahma, the first created being in this universe as the head of our line of disciplic succession, thousands of years ago. The very first spiritual instruction that we receive from the founder of our line indicates that the Supreme Lord loves the cows: "Govindam adi purusam," meaning that the Original Person can be called Govinda or "One who pleases the cows." Govinda, of course, is another name for Krsna. The Supreme Lord loves the cows, and somehow or other He has arranged things so that human beings can progress in their spiritual understanding of Him and in their love of Him by protecting the cows. Srila Prabhupada notes that the bull and cow are father and mother of humanity, "The bull helps in the agricultural process of producing grain, etc., and thus in one sense the bull is the father of humankind, whereas the cow is the mother, for she supplies milk to human society. (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.5.7) Prabhupada calls the protection of the cows and the brahmanas "the two pillars of spiritual advancement." (SB 1.17.20) He states that, "One cannot become spiritually advanced without acquiring the brahminical qualifications and giving protection to cows." (SB 6.18.52) VEGETARIAN OR VEGAN? Thus, all devotees recognize the important role of milk in a natural diet. On the spiritual side, we have the example of the Supreme Lord Himself as a transcendental cowherd boy in Vrndavana, who delights in many milk preparations offered by His mother and Srimati Radharani and the devotees. On the practical side, Srila Prabhupada informs us that, "The body can be maintained by any kind of foodstuff, but cow's milk is particularly essential for developing the finer tissues of the human brain so that one can understand the intricacies of transcendental knowledge." (SB 3.5.7 Purport) From the point of view of anthropology, there is good reason why we see no examples of vegan society in any historic culture. Nutritionists inform us that nerve cells, including those that make up the brain, require vitamin B12 or cobalimin, which is naturally found only in meat and milk. "In adults typical deficiency symptoms include loss of energy, tingling, numbness, reduced sensitivity to pain or pressure, blurred vision, abnormal gait, sore tongue, poor memory, confusion, hallucinations and personality changes. [These symptoms may take years to develop.] Infants typically show more rapid onset of symptoms than adults. B12 deficiency may lead to loss of energy and appetite and failure to thrive. If not promptly corrected this can progress to coma or death." (Vegan Society website) Thus, from the physiological standpoint, before the modern age, it was not possible to have a vegan society, since its members could not survive for any length of time. The natural diet of any non-violent society, which did not kill animals, would have had to include milk. However, some devotees nowadays point to the modern dairy industry, whether in the West or in India, and recoil at the violent treatment of cows and bulls. The way we get our milk is no longer natural. On one hand technological advances have created large-scale dairy operations with terrible conditions for cows and bulls, but on the positive side, technological advances have also created advances in the artificial formulation of nutritional supplements, so that the critical vitamin B12 component can now be provided by yeast-based products. Thus, rather than drink milk, some devotees become vegans. On the other hand, many other devotees, though uncomfortable about the inhumane aspects of both modern and traditional dairies around the world, have made the decision to continue to offer Krsna milk products. They note that Srila Prabhupada allowed devotees to offer commercial milk products to the Deities. In addition, due to their economic or family situation or remoteness from sophisticated urban markets, many find it simply impossible to meet the nutritional needs of their families -- for calcium, proteins, B vitamins, vitamin D, etc. -- without using milk. They avoid the most unhealthy aspects of modern milk products by using products containing less fat, using yogurt and other cultured preparations which do not cause lactose intolerance reaction, and avoiding the use of cold milk, which can be digested only by people of nothern European genetic make-up. In addition, this latter group points to Krsna's liberation of the demoness Putana (SB 10.6; Krsna Book 6). Although her intent was to kill Krsna by offering Him her poisoned breast milk, Krsna accepted the milk and liberated her from all her sinful reactions. Because He accepted her milk, He accepted her as mother. If Krsna could be so merciful to the evil Putana, then surely He cannot fail to be merciful to the cows, who are offering Him their milk with no tinge of animosity. Which group is right? It is difficult to make a judgement in answer that question. It seems that both groups should be respected. But at this point of the analysis, it is crucial to note that the element that is missing from either group is actual cow protection. Simply to be a vegetarian does not protect cows -- but simply to be a vegan does not protect cows either. And without that element, spiritual growth will be stunted. In a recent Chakra article, "What Is the Cost of Milk?" Prema Bhakti dasa and his wife Tapati dasi suggest the beginning of a solution of how work towards offering to Krsna milk that comes from protected cows. They propose that devotees who drink milk should observe a self-imposed "cow protection tax" on all the milk they drink. For example, if the cost of milk from protected cows would be $5.00 per gallon, and the milk they buy in the store is $2.00 per gallon. They would use the difference of $3.00 per gallon as a "cow protection tax." If they used 12 gallons of milk per month, they would donate $36.00 per month to the cow protection program of their choice. This way, when they offer milk to Krsna, they know that despite their awkward circumstances, the Lord can understand that their desire is to protect His cows and to eventually be able to offer Him actual milk from protected cows, as well as grains produced by protected oxen. Coming from their somewhat different perspective, vegan devotees could maintain a similar practice of participation in cow protection programs. This could be the beginning of a solution to the dilemma of how to offer Krsna milk from protected cows and grains produced by protected oxen, in the modern context. But, for such a program to be successful, much depends on the integrity and competence of the cow protection program. And, sad to say, around the world, within ISKCON and outside of it, there are numerous so-called cow protection programs, goshallas and pinjrapols (homes for retired cows) where the level of protection is inadequate. One might say that the solution is to support only well-organized programs, and withdraw support from those which are inadequate. But the fact is that very, very few are well organized -- and by withdrawing support from poorly organized programs, it means that the cows there will suffer even more. So, how can inadequate programs be encouraged to improve? Surprisingly, donors to these programs can play an important role in upgrading the quality of programs. They can do this by showing that the level of donation they give hinges directly on seeing (1)progress in the quality of care provided to cows, (2)conscientious accounting and handling of funds, (3)a commitment to providing good training and fair compensation for cowherds, and (4)opportunities for donor input and participation. Under the auspices of ISKCON's Ministry for Cow Protection and Agriculture, devotee cowherds around the world have formulated ISKCON's Minimum Standards for Cow Protection. These standards, which are available on the ISCOWP website (also on Chakra), are the basis of ISKCON's Law 507, which provides for the protection of cows and oxen. They contain many specific guidelines for proper care of animals, which can be applied even to organizations outside ISKCON. Donors to any cow protection agency would do well to read over the guidelines, but here are some important ones. After familiarizing themselves with these guidelines, donors can communicate to the cow protection agency their willingness to increase their level of support as different milestones of improvement are certifiably reached. The word "Cows" in the text below includes cows, bulls, oxen (bullocks) and calves -- unless otherwise indicated. This was Srila Prabhupada's understanding also: Prabhupada: The duty of the agriculturist is to give very careful protection to the cows especially. C. Hennis: This doesn't apply to bulls and bullocks and male animals generally, does it? Prabhupada: No, bullocks also. Cow means bullock also...Cow is feminine, bullock is the masculine, that's all. C. Hennis: So it's the whole bovine race that's protected, and not just the female cows? Prabhupada: No, both the male and female. The bullocks are used for so many other purposes. They can till the field. They can be used for transportation, so many other purposes. Or even we are using them to spread Krsna consciousness. During Krsna's time... Krsna was born of a very well to do father, but at that time the bullocks were engaged for transportation from one village to another. (Geneva, 31 May 1974) Following are guidelines for developing good cow protection. MONITORING AND RECORDS 1. The entire herd should be counted daily. This principle was established by Lord Krsna Himself. Srila Jiva Gosvami recounts, "When Krsna calls out 'Hey Dhavali (the name of a white cow),' a whole group of white cows come forward, and when He calls 'Hamsi, Candani, Ganga, Mukta and so on, the twenty-four other groups of white cows come... Thus being called by name, the cows are coming forward, and Krsna, thinking that when it is time to bring them back from the forest none should be forgotten, is counting them on His jewel-beads." (cited Srimad Bhagavatam 10.35.18-19) Daily counting is a safeguard to protect cows that may be lost, injured or even stolen. 2. Every cow should have a name. This principle was also established by Krsna. As Srila Prabhupada describes, "The cows, oh, as soon as they see Krsna, they become... They lick up His face and body, and every cow has got a different name. As soon as He will call, the cow will come immediately and dropping milk." (Lecture - New York, 5 Dec 1966) Unless every cow has a name, it will not be possible to be sure they are all cared for properly. 3. Records should be kept with the name, sex, date of birth of each cow. When a cow or calf dies, the cause of death and date of death should be recorded. Annual records should be provided to members each year. 4. Calf mortality should be less than 10%. In the absence of proper records, this can be determined retroactively by seeing how many cows have been milking in the last 2 3 years and determining how many of their calves are still alive. 5. Analyzed by sex, the herd should be approximately 50% cows, 50% bulls or oxen. If there are far more females than males, it is usually a sign of a discrepancy - either in the organization's incomplete understanding of cow protection, or in substandard protection for bull calves. 6. Any cow who has taken shelter on Krsna's land or in Krsna's temple should never be subsequently sold, traded, given away or killed. A cow protection program should not participate in grazing beef cows destined for slaughter on its land. No temple should practice "borrowing" a bull calf from a commercial dairy and then returning it after a ceremony (such as Govardhana Puja), since that means the animal will eventually be killed. BREEDING AND AQUIRING COWS 7. No cow should be bred for milk production alone, without plans for the resulting calf. No cow should be bred unless there is a clear and concrete plan for the care of the calf for its entire life, which may be 10-20 years. This means there must be adequate land, adequate funding and adequate trained personnel to care for the resulting calf. 8. Cows should not be acquired based on sentiment alone. A goshalla should not allow itself to be exploited by those who "donate" animals with mixed motives. Teijas dasa recounted that Srila Prabhupada did not want devotees to accept cows just because someone wanted to give them away, "Prabhupada told us not to take any more donations of cows unless the person gave a donation of 5,000 rupees to cover the maintenance of the cow. He said, 'Our business is not to take old cows.' You know, they have a good sentiment plus an ulterior motive mixed together. Sentiment plus some motive. So it doesn't come out to be the varnasrama system." (ISKCON Farm Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 1, 1983) A responsible goshalla should not accept more animals than it can care for, simply out of sentiment. 9. Milking should be a pleasurable experience for the cow. "The milk bag was so fatty and full with milk. Why? Muda - they were so happy. They were so happy. So if you keep the cows happy, then cow will supply large quantity of milk. " (Lecture SB 1.10.4, London 25 Nov 1973) No painful or unhealthy method should be used to stimulate milk production. 10. Milk production should not be developed primarily as a profit-making venture. "You say we must have a gosala trust, that is our real purpose. krsi-goraksya-vanijyam vaisya karma svabhava-jam, [bg 18.44]. Where there is agriculture there must be cows. That is our mission: Cow protection and agriculture and if there is excess, trade. This is a no-profit scheme. For the agriculture we want to produce our own food and we want to keep cows for our own milk. The whole idea is that we are Iskcon, a community to be independent from outside help. This farm project is especially for the devotees to grow their own food. Cotton also, to make their own clothes. And keeping cows for milk and fatty products. Our mission is to protect our devotees from unnecessary heavy work to save time for advancing in Krsna consciousness. This is our mission. So there is no question of profit, but if easily there are surplus products, then we can think of trading. Otherwise we have no such intention. " (Letter to Yasomatinandana -- Vrindavan 28 Nov 1976) TRAINING OF OXEN OR BULLOCKS 11. In general, all bull calves should be trained to work. As Srila Prabhupada stated to Teijas dasa at ISKCON's Hyderbad farm in the 1970's, "If you do not use the bulls for plowing, one day you will say, let us cut their throats." (ISKCON Farm Newsletter Vol. 2, No. 1, 1983) 12. No ox should be overworked or worked by force only. Overworking and working by force develops when there is no obvious personal relationship between the ox and the teamster. Excessive use of whips, beating, rough treatment, and violence to the oxen are not acceptable. A properly treated ox will not shy away from his master. Rather he will approach the master, expecting kind treatment and affection. Examples of instructions for relationship-based training of oxen are available at ISCOWP's website. 13. In general, bull calves should be castrated by the time they are 1 year old, or whatever age is appropriate for that breed. This can be done with minimum discomfort by using a bloodless emasculator or burdizzo, which only pinches the semen tubes to achieve sterilization. The presence of a bull often leads unplanned breeding, expanding the herd beyond the carrying capacity of the land, and beyond the ability of the manpower to care for it. A bull can also create unexpected danger to the public or inexperienced cowherds. A bull should be kept only where there is a willing and experienced cowherd, of proven stability, with ample funding, time and facility to care for him properly. SHELTER, GRAZING AND FEED 14. The cows' living conditions should be clean and comfortable. Animals can be brushed so their coat is clean and healthy. "Krsna's pastimes in Gokula, His dhama, are always favorable to the brahmanas and the cows. His first business is to give all comfort to the cows and the brahmanas. In fact, comfort for the brahmanas is secondary, and comfort for the cows is His first concern." (SB 10.8.16 Purport) "While engaged in talking about New Vrindaban during Prabhupada's massage yesterday, I mentioned how we used to do cow aratis. At that point Prabhupada frowned. I asked if they were okay to do, and he said no. I asked if there was anything special to do for the cows. He said keep them clean, brush them nicely, bathe them, and also you can polish their horns and hooves." (Prabhupada Nectar, Vol. 4, by Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, p. 11, excerpt from a letter from Srutakirti dasa to Kirtananda Swami, September 27, 1972) 15. All cows should have adequate shelter. Adequate shelter (not overcrowded) with fresh air and access to sunlight should be available to all cows. In hot weather, cows should be provided with shade and adequate water. "Thereafter, all the cows entered their different sheds and began mooing loudly, calling for their respective calves. When the calves arrived, the mothers began licking the calves' bodies again and again and profusely feeding them with the milk flowing from their milk bags. " (SB 10.13.24) 16. Adequate fencing should be maintained. Krsna and Balarama personally supervised Their cows throughout the day. But if such constant supervision is not available, it is essential to provide fencing for the cows. Well maintained fencing is necessary to keep cows away from areas where they could be injured or lost or even captured and sold to slaughter. Good fencing prevents unplanned breeding with neighbors' bulls. Krsna and Balarama took Their cows to a new pasture every day. Similarly, by using suitably designed temporary fencing, it is possible to improve pasture quality and nutrition by implementing rotational grazing (as described on the Hare Krsna Rural Life website ). 17. Cows must be provided sufficient grazing opportunity. And, as stated by Bhismadeva in the Mahabharata, no cow should be kept always tethered. 18. The program should maintain adequate pasture for animals. Generally the minimum would be at least 1/2 acre (1/4 hectare) per animal, preferably 1 acre per animal. Ideally this land should be protected by a goshalla trust so it cannot be sold for so-called "development." Prabhupada emphasized the importance of adequate grazing ground, "For the proper pursuit of human happiness, there must be arrangements for the protection of cows. This means that there must be forests and adequate pasturing grounds full of grass and water." (SB 10.5.26) Not only are the cows made happy by such arrangements, but the minds of human beings are pacified simply by living in such environment. 19. Cows should be sufficiently well fed. "Vaisya's business is to give protection to the cows, not to send them to the slaughterhouse - to see the cows are very well-fed, they are fatty, strong, that they must be given food, sufficient food. " (Bhagavad-gita 4.2 lecture - Bombay 22 March 1974) 20. Ideally, feed for the cows should be grown on site, not purchased from outside. Srila Prabhupada stated, "We must be able to grow our own fodder for the cows. We don't want to have to purchase food for the cows outside from some other party. That will run into a great expense. Cow protection is the business of the vaisyas and along with our preaching, this is the most important work." (Letter to Hasyakari -Honolulu 26 May 1975) FUNDING AND ACCOUNTING 21. The goshalla should have an accurate and clear method of keeping accounts, and members should be presented with an annual statement of accounts. Prabhupada noted, "Bookkeeping is the most important item. As you are growing in stature, our accounting system should become very perfect. We have to publish now a short statement of accounts. As we increase our life membership number, we must submit our audited accounts and that will convince the public of our stability." (Letter to Karandhara -- Bombay 18 March 1971) 22. Ideally, funds collected for a goshalla or cow protection program should be kept separate from other accounts, such as that of a temple or community facility. Funds should not be invested in any speculative business enterprise. COWHERD TRAINING AND SUPPORT 23. Cowherds should be recognized as important members in the spiritual community. Prabhupada states, "For the cowherd men and the cows, Krsna is the supreme friend. Therefore He is worshiped by the prayer namo brahmanya-devaya go-brahmana-hitaya ca." (SB 10.8.16 Purport) 24. Ideally, the goshalla should maintain a well designed program for training cowherds and ox-power farmers. Visnujana: For example, in New Vrindaban we have brahmanas that are very expert at tilling the soil and taking care of cows. They could travel around and teach others how to do that as well. Prabhupada: Yes. That's right. He is brahmana, but he's teaching how to take care of the cows and ploughing. (Morning Walk "Varnasrama College" -- 14 March 1974, Vrndavana) 25. Cowherds should be facilitated and supported so they can have a decent, if simple, standard of living and so that they have time to participate in the community's spiritual program. Cow herding should not be considered a "lower" service. People who are treated as inferiors will inevitably leave. On the other hand, it is a sign of a healthy program if the spiritual leaders of a community acknowledge the contribution and instructive experiences of the cowherds in Bhagavatam classes and other occasions. In the long term, cowherds should be able see a future for themselves and their families, working the land with oxen and taking care of cows, because only in this way can long-term cow protection -- together with its concomitant spiritual dimension -- be established in a community. Without proper training, facility and care of its cowherds, a cow protection program is threatened by constant turnover of staff and may eventually collapse. MEMBERSHIP AND OUTREACH 26. A goshalla should use its cow protection program as a means of attracting the public to Krsna consciousness. When people have a chance to see cows, oxen and calves being well cared for and productively engaged, and to pet the animals and interact with them, their hearts naturally become softened and receptive to hearing about the Krsna's pastimes. 27. Activities of the cow protection program should be highlighted on community websites and during religious holidays and festivals such as Gaura Purnima, Janmastami, Govardhana Puja and Ratha Yatra. The Deities can be read accounts of the activities of the year, not only how much milk or burfi was produced, but also how many oxen were trained, how much area they plowed, how much wood they hauled, how many bushels of vegetables they produced, etc -- showcasing the offerings of the animals to the Lord and highlighting their value as contributors to self-sufficiency and gentler environmental practices. Members should participate not only as guests, but should also be given a chance to help organize and present activities in glorification of Krsna's cows and oxen. 28. A cow protection program should provide opportunity for members' input and participation. This can be achieved through questionnaires, newsletters, workshops, and pre-festival meetings. CONCLUSION Thus, by knowing what to look for in a cow protection program, members can let organizers know that they are willing to give a certain amount per month and that they plan to increase the amount based on different milestones of improvement. Several simple but important practices, such as daily counting of cows and naming of cows, cost nothing to implement. Other aspects, such as providing a well-developed training program for cowherd and ox workers are the sign of a first-class cow protection program, and will take longer to develop. Yet, with the confidence from having many committed donors, a goshalla can gradually attain such goals. Other practices, such as giving greater prominence to cow protection activities during religious holidays and festivals, will benefit not only the cows and the members, but the whole community. In this way, by steadily increasing their funding, many small cow protection programs can be developed and gradually lead to a more peaceful, spiritual way of life. Thus more and more people can participate first-hand in cow protection, to provide the very best products to offer to the Lord with love and devotion. "For protecting the cows and brahminical culture, the Lord, who is very kind to the cow and the brahmanas (go-brahmana-hitaya), will be pleased with us and will bestow upon us real peace." SB 1.17.9

Srila Prabhupada: Our program is not vox populi. We are saying only what the authoritative scriptures say. If you actually want to do social welfare, then you must take to the standard formula as given in the scriptures. In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna explains how one can become peaceful -- a first-class man. But if you don't accept His authority -- if you'd rather follow public opinion -- you will never be successful. You want to make a peaceful society, but you do not know how. Therefore you must adopt this process of Krsna consciousness. If anyone -- even a madman -- agrees to follow our principles, then he can become peaceful. He can become a first-class man. Social worker: Well, I do believe you should maintain a standard. Srila Prabhupada: Yes, and that is making us successful. We do not make any compromise. This is our method. If you like it, you can take it; if you don't like it, you can reject it. We don't mind. We are not interested in vox populi. From BTG 12-08 1977 There is no need for men to eat animals, because there is an ample supply of grains, vegetables, fruits and milk. Such simple foodstuff is considered to be in the mode of goodness according to the Bhagavad-gita. Animal food is for those in the mode of ignorance. Therefore, those who indulge in animal food, drinking, smoking and eating food which is not first offered to Krsna will suffer sinful reactions because of eating only polluted things. Bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat. Anyone who eats for sense pleasure, or cooks for himself, not offering his food to Krsna, eats only sin. One who eats sin and eats more than is allotted to him cannot execute perfect yoga. It is best that one eat only the remnants of foodstuff offered to Krsna. A person in Krsna consciousness does not eat anything which is not first offered to Krsna. Therefore, only the Krsna conscious person can attain perfection in yoga practice. Nor can one who artificially abstains from eating, manufacturing his own personal process of fasting, practice yoga. The Krsna conscious person observes fasting as it is recommended in the scriptures. He does not fast or eat more than is required, and he is thus competent to perform yoga practice. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada you not indebted? Do you think, or not, that we are indebted to the sun? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupada: Are you agreeing or not? Devotee (1): Well, I guess I think. Prabhupada: Yes, you must. If you cannot pay your electric bill one month, your electricity will be immediately cut off. And you are getting so much light from the sun, and you do not pay the bill. Then you are becoming indebted, indebted, indebted. You see? (laughter) You have to pay it. If you don't pay, then you'll be punished. So we do not know that. Devarsi-bhutapta. We are taking so much milk from the cows, and we are killing instead of giving them protection. So in this way, we are simply committing sinful life. How you can expect to become happy? So the only means is to take to Krsna consciousness. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva-papebhyah. Because you are habituated to commit sinful life only, so if you want to be saved, then you take to Krsna consciousness. Otherwise, you have to be punished, in this life or next life. And you do not know what is your next life because you are all ignorant. But there is next life. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati. But if you are most sinful, then you are going to become abominable living creatures. Adho gacchanti tamasah. You go down. And if you become pious, then you are promoted. But our program is not to become pious, not to become sinful: to become Krsna conscious. That will save us. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

http://www.vrindavan.org/English/about/VaishnavaEcology.html Swami B. A. Paramadvaiti Here is an extract. "The Vaishnavas are also against the harsh treatment of cows in modern milk factories. However, our concept is different than that of the vegan philosophy which eliminates animal products all together. Because God is the rightful enjoyer of everything, He blesses those living entities who contribute to His pleasure or to the service of His devotees. Vedic culture gives us the blessing of offering God the cow's milk and her sub products, along with other animal products such as honey and wool. This idea extents to include the printing of holy books on paper made of trees; where as if only rubbish is printed on this paper, it is considered sinful. Knowing that the treatment of these animals is wrong, Vaishnavas offer milk to God to give the cows a chance to serve Krishna with some of their energy. Krishna Himself manifests the pastimes of a cowherd boy and, of course, Vaishnavas would much prefer to protect cows personally on their own farms without any mistreatment. But it is a fact that cow protection can only be organized on a high level, requiring thousands of acres of land of different qualities and much help from the government. Small farms will go bankrupt by increasing herds of cows. This is the sad truth which has often been ignored by rather inexperienced Vaishnava farmers."

"I am not talking to ISKCON. I am talking to you as a person." You have reffered to ISKCON a few times please read over your posts, you have critisised that they are taking too long whatever 'they' means and talked about their hypocracy based on your grasp of philosophy. "You defending your continuing consumption of bloodmilk by refering to Prabhupada and trying to say i am criticizing him by criticizing you." No so far I have given you a whole load of philosophical points from srila prabhupada supporting what I am saying, you have not answered point by point to anything accept just come out with the same emotionally charged slogans over and over again. so far I have demonstarted that srila prabhupada had no issues for us using commercial milk and have given evidence of this and why this might be. You have given no reasons on why this has changed based on anything srila prabhupada has said. I want to know philosophically whats correct not based on your emotions, so if you have evidence from guru and sastra please let me know im willing to listen and learn. "You have chosen to blow this whole "hypocrisy" statement out of proportion I believe as a conscious or subconscious way of avoiding the real issue which is the unspeakable suffering of the cows and calves. So horrendous is that suffering that Srila Prabhupada wouldn't include it his Bhagavatam." I have addressed this directly in a number of my posts which you have chosen to ignore. In any discussion you have to argue based on what is being said not on the basis that you actually know my motivations "I believe as a conscious or subconscious way of avoiding the real issue" If you think I'm avoiding the issue then show me where and what points i havent addressed. Your here there's no fooling you. And im open to philosophical discussion not emotional ranting. "I have seen so many atrocious practices done in the name of ajnata sukriti. From "sannyasins" running organized theft rings from Jewelry stores in Japan while transporting heroin around the world in the name of 'build that temple' to women being used as sex objects to sell those books and bring back that laxmi, "Pick the bone and bring it home" became the mantra, I just must be very careful how I can accept the proper application of ajnata sukriti. I even remeber saying their thefts were bone fide per the example of the Alwars. I say this is where we should be careful also." I have already agreed that the principle of ajnata sukriti can be abused, you are creating a straw man argument. My point has been that srila prabhupada has directly said we drink the milk of slaughtered cows in the quote i provided you about being in debt with the sun, slaughtered cows which provide us milk etc, and how its solved if we are Krishna concious and placed no restriction on the consumtion on milk. "Babhru asked for a source on how you are applying ajnata sukriti to the cows but that conversation was never finished that I noticed. " I was satisfied with the quote in which the tree gets benifit from offering the fruit, and the machine maker getting benifit for us using his machines. As there is no direct quote talking about the cows therefore Ive been demonstrating through using prabhupadas words that he never placed any restriction on commercial milk which ive pointed out in the quotes ive given you. Instead your making the claim that commercial milk is now not allowed but was before due to the lack of progress in cow protection, so the burden is on you to give a case for this from prabhupadas words. Else its just your opinion and it is rescpected as such. "I would like to see that picked up again but for myself I am trying to disengage as this protion of the topic has run its course for now." I would like to disengage too, but you seem to come out with the same arguments over and over again, which i've tried to give some evidence for and which you have not said anything on, nor have you given counter evidence except say the same emotionally charged sentences again and again. Anayway ive said what ive needed to say and if someone makes any new points and i feel I have something worthy to add I will.

"This is what we're after, the fine tuning of our counsciouness which is what we are really offering to Sri Krsna. The bottom line : Is it pleasing to Krsna or His beloved devotee and servitor Srila Prabhupada to offer 'bloodmilk' to Him ?" Any offering he demands is pleasing if offered properly, if he asked for meat and eggs we would offer it whether bloody or not. Prabhupada offered 'bloodmilk' and allowed his disciples with no restrictions even after being aware of the horrors of cattle farming. At the same time preaching cow protection. Maybe we do not realise the benifit gained by offering milk to the lord, we may think its better to avoid it (if we dont have cow protection kicked off), but thats not shown by srila prabhupadas example or words (not that ive seen so far). Ive made my case for what i see to be true based on srila prabhupadas words, others may claim to know his true intentions but I dont see it from his words. Others may choose to go with their inner feelings, may be they are in contact with paramatma, others out of compassion that avoiding is greater than offering, others may see it hypocritcal to preach cow protection but drink bloodmilk, not being able to understand moral duty and spirtual principles, others may reject prabhupada's words thinking they know better we all have our types of faith, may guru and krishna guide us. I do get annoyed when i here critisism aimed at a group of devotees of being hypocrites. Theist prabhu it maybe you who does not understand the philosophy properly so be careful. As for throwing rocks at Iskcon for not doing anything in 40 years, please understand that iskcon is not a monolithic robot how many devotees left in the 80's? 90's? how many gurus fell down? How many temples have shut down or on the verge? Ive already pointed this out to you, but you continue with the same attitude, most devotees these days in iskcon never met prabhupada. Its so easy to sit there and minimise what everyone else is doing, and saying what they do isnt good enough, what are you doing to meet what prabhupada wants? If you can do it better then do it. You'll probably turn around and say your not in iskcon, we'll if your not but want what prabhupada wants then still go and do it, dont just sit there and critisise others hard work. ISKCON is made out of individuals not one or 2 people, some have done what you will not be able to do for lifetimes so please be careful.

Dangers of manufacturing our own process, "There is no need for men to eat animals, because there is an ample supply of grains, vegetables, fruits and milk. Such simple foodstuff is considered to be in the mode of goodness according to the Bhagavad-gita. Animal food is for those in the mode of ignorance. Therefore, those who indulge in animal food, drinking, smoking and eating food which is not first offered to Krsna will suffer sinful reactions because of eating only polluted things. Bhunjate te tv agham papa ye pacanty atma-karanat. Anyone who eats for sense pleasure, or cooks for himself, not offering his food to Krsna, eats only sin. One who eats sin and eats more than is allotted to him cannot execute perfect yoga. It is best that one eat only the remnants of foodstuff offered to Krsna. A person in Krsna consciousness does not eat anything which is not first offered to Krsna. Therefore, only the Krsna conscious person can attain perfection in yoga practice. Nor can one who artificially abstains from eating, manufacturing his own personal process of fasting, practice yoga. The Krsna conscious person observes fasting as it is recommended in the scriptures. He does not fast or eat more than is required, and he is thus competent to perform yoga practice. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada" Cow protection is very important "So Govinda..., so what is the business of Govinda? Now, go-dvija-surarti-haravatara. Surarti, go. This demonic world is the greatest enemy of cows. Just see how they are maintaining hundreds and thousands of slaughterhouse. Hundreds and thousands of slaughterhouse. Innocent animals, giving you milk, the most important foodstuff. Even after death, it is giving you its skin for your shoes, and you are so rascal that you are killing. And you want to be happy in this world. You see? How sinful they are! They have no consideration that this animal... Why cow protection is so much advocated? Because it is very, very important. Therefore... There is no such injunction that "You don't eat the flesh of the tiger." You can eat. Because those who are meat eaters, those who are meat eaters, they have been recommended to eat the flesh of goats or other lower animals--sometimes dogs also, they eat, or the hogs--you can eat. But never the flesh of cows. So, innocent animal, the most important animal, giving service even after death... While living, giving service, so important service, giving you milk, even after death she is giving service by supplying the skin, the hoof, the horn. You utilize in so many ways. But still, the present human society is so ungrateful and rascal that they are killing cows. So Krsna comes to punish them, HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada" Here prabhupada talks about our debt to the cows, who supply milk and are killed, the only solution is become krishna concious, you can not pay all these debts off to everyone. "you not indebted? Do you think, or not, that we are indebted to the sun? Devotee (2): Yes. Prabhupada: Are you agreeing or not? Devotee (1): Well, I guess I think. Prabhupada: Yes, you must. If you cannot pay your electric bill one month, your electricity will be immediately cut off. And you are getting so much light from the sun, and you do not pay the bill. Then you are becoming indebted, indebted, indebted. You see? (laughter) You have to pay it. If you don't pay, then you'll be punished. So we do not know that. Devarsi-bhutapta. We are taking so much milk from the cows, and we are killing instead of giving them protection. So in this way, we are simply committing sinful life. How you can expect to become happy? So the only means is to take to Krsna consciousness. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva-papebhyah. Because you are habituated to commit sinful life only, so if you want to be saved, then you take to Krsna consciousness. Otherwise, you have to be punished, in this life or next life. And you do not know what is your next life because you are all ignorant. But there is next life. Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati. But if you are most sinful, then you are going to become abominable living creatures. Adho gacchanti tamasah. You go down. And if you become pious, then you are promoted. But our program is not to become pious, not to become sinful: to become Krsna conscious. That will save us. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada" I personally dont see a contridiction between cow protection and commercial milk. I see 2 principles at work. The spirtual principle is to offer the milk which is benificial to the cow whether protected or not protected. The moral pricnciple, is to protect the body of the cows which is also condusive for spirtual life (simple living and protecting the mother) thus cow protection. The spirtual priciple is always higher, however we should also aspire for the moral principle to facilitate the spirtual. When in contention the spirtual principle takes precidence. Anyway we should all be aware of prabhupadas wish for cow protection, there are so many quotes where he is advocating "very very" much cow protection. This discussion has made me much more aware when i offer any milk products, i have minimised it in the past few days to avoid just eating for my sense grat. And my offerings are a little more focused. Thanks, Haribol.

"Did Bhaktisiddhanta every tell Srila Prabhupada that Westerners could only chant 16 rounds? Devotees must be independent and thoughtful." Srila prabhupada was self relized right? He was around at the time when this cows were being slaughtered therefore im trying to see from his example what is the best course. "We have to learn to follow our own conscience and listen to that inner leading." I agree to a certain extent but that inner voice should be based on higher knowledge and instruction, I will get sentimental over anything, and my concience will say many things therefore if we have enough evidence form srila prabhupada whats the better than the perfect source. "Consider it deeply and then do the right thing" I will consider based on guru. We know srila prabhupada was aware of cow slaughering and the horrors of dairy farming. He never placed a condition on drinking commercial milk. He had many chances to place a restriction on it but never did, infact he states the opposite a few times. (as the below quote shows) I have already given a few quotes showing how everything is benifited when offered. And the last quote I give you as an example to show we are not concerned about the karma we get, prabhupada says if krishna wants we would offer him eggs and meat, now that shouldnt be taken lightly. We are not vegiterians or vegans etc we are prasad-ians as srila prabhupada says. If its authorised krishna will take the sin and give the benifit. "The main business of the human society is to understand God, and as soon as he understands God, he understands that every living entity is part and parcel of Krsna. Then how we can eat? That because Krsna eats, Krsna allows, then we eat. So responsibility is Krsna's. This is our philosophy. Yes." The question also remains on actually how will not drinking milk reduces cow slaughter. Heres one: "You can drink by offering worship to Candi," it is restricted. Nobody can worship Candi daily. Nobody can worship Kali daily. There is also fixed date... Kali worship can be performed on (indistinct). The (indistinct) comes once a month. So that means restricted. One can eat meat once in a month. But the RESTRICTION is not there for eating rice, dahl, ghee, fruit or milk. There is no such restriction. But whenever there is a question of liquor, meat-eating and sex, immediately there is sastra injunction that "You can do this under certain conditions." That means the whole idea is to restrict. That is, psychology is already there, but sastras (indistinct), because they know if people become implicated with all these nonsense things, then his duration of materialistic way of life will increase, and we will have to accept material bodies birth after birth" "Guest: The stricture on the eating of meat, does that derive from the fact that animals have their lives which are accorded... Prabhupada: No, vegetable, vegetable has got life. Guest: Yes. What I'm asking is that because animals have a higher priority in life than vegetables? Prabhupada: No question of priority. Our philosophy is that we are servant of God. So God will eat, and whatever remnants of foodstuff He'll left, that we shall take. So in the Bhagavad-gita... You find out this verse. Patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati. Just like you have come here. So if I want to offer you something for eatable, it is my duty to ask you, "Mr. Nixon, which foodstuff you'll like to eat?" So you dictate, "I like this very much." Then, if I offer you that foodstuff, then you become pleased. So we have called Krsna in this temple, so we are waiting, what foodstuff He wants to eat? So He said that... Guru-krpa: "If one offer me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it." Prabhupada: Yes. Patram puspam phalam. He is asking very simple thing which everyone can offer. Just like a little leaf, patram, a little flower, puspam, a little fruit, and little liquid, either water or ghee, er, milk. So we offer that. We make different varieties with these ingredients, patram puspam phalam toyam, and after Krsna's eating, we take it. We are servant; we take the remnants of foodstuff left by Krsna. We are neither vegetarian nor nonvegetarian. We are prasad-ian. We don't care for vegetable or not vegetable, because either you kill a cow or kill a vegetable, the sinful action is there. And according to nature's law, it is said that "The animals which has no hand, that is the food for the animals with hands." We are also animals with hands. We human being, we are also animal with hands, and they are animals--no hand but four legs. And there are animals which has no leg, that is vegetable. Apadani catus-padam. These animals which has no leg, they are food for the animals with four leg. Just like cow eats grass, the goat eats grass. So eating vegetable, there is no credit. Then the goats and the cows are more credit, have more credit, because they don't touch anything except vegetable. So we are not preaching to become goats and cows. No. We are preaching that you become servant of Krsna. So whatever Krsna eats, we eat. If Krsna says that "Give me meat, give me eggs," so we shall offer Krsna meat and eggs and we shall take it. So don't think that we are after vegetarian, nonvegetarian. No. That is not our philosophy. Because either you take vegetable or you take meat, you are killing. And you have to kill because otherwise you cannot live. That is nature's way. Guest: Yes. Prabhupada: So we are not for that way. Guest: Well, why do you put the stricture on... Prabhupada: Stricture in this way, no meat-eating, because cow protection is required. We require milk. And instead of taking milk, if we eat the cows, then where is milk? Guest: So milk is very important. Prabhupada: Very, very important. Guest: In terms of production of food for the world, the world would be much better off without eating animals. Prabhupada: No, milk is required. Some fatty vitaminous food is required. That necessity is supplied by milk. Therefore specifically... Guest: Couldn't you get all the necessity you require from grains? Prabhupada: Grains, no. Grains, they are starch. According to medical science, we require four different groups: starch, carbohydrate, protein, and fat. That is full food. So you can get all these things by eating rice, dahl, mean pulses, and wheat, and.... These things contain.... Pulses and wheat contains protein. And milk also contains protein. So protein we require. Fat we get from milk. Fat is required. And vegetables, carbohydrate; and food grain, starch. So if you prepare nice foodstuff with all these ingredients, you get full..., and offer to Krsna, then it's purified. Then you are free from all sinful activities. Otherwise, even if you kill vegetable, you are sinful because it has got life. You have no right to kill another life. But you have to live on life. This is your position. Therefore the solution is that you take prasadam. If there is sin by eating vegetable or meat it goes to the eater. We take the remnants, that's all. Pusta Krsna: You follow? Guest: Not exactly. Pusta Krsna: The food that we take is first offered to Krsna in the temple, so Krsna is the first to eat. And Krsna demands that "You offer Me this particular source of foodstuff." So one becomes free from all sinful reactions by first offering to Krsna the foodstuff. Not only are you eating, but also you become free from sinful reaction. Guest: I see. Prabhupada: Don't think we are vegetarian. We can become anything, provided it is eaten from the remnants of foodstuff left by Krsna. This is our.... To become vegetarian.... There are many animals who are vegetarians. The monkeys are vegetarian; the goats are vegetarian; the cows are vegetarian. So that is not a good qualification, to become vegetarian and become an animal. Or to become lion, tiger, dog. So either you are vegetarian or meat-eater, there are many animals. So we are not going to be animals. We are going to become human being. This is our philosophy. Grouping ourself to the vegetarian kingdom or nonvege.... The animals.... The tiger is a great nonvegetarian. Fresh blood they want to eat, drink. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada" "You know it really isn't about karma or karma free. It is about the suffering of others." Yes thats true, so as i see it so far not drinking thier milk will not stop cow slaughter as i dont see the evidence for this. But it may reduce their suffering. However considering the philosophy give by prabhupada above, these cows will suffer as much as their karma has given them to suffer either in this life or next. They will ultimately suffer less if their milk is offered and used in some service. (you can see this as an excuse and sure some will use it as an excuse but this is the only real solution to thier suffering) The only real help we can give is by offering thier milk, which is athorised by guru and krishna. Maybe a devotte is very elevated and his mood is i can not offer milk to you as it is created by the suffering of your beloved cows which is fine i guess. Another elevated devotees mood may be just as srila prabhupada, that these cows are suffering, but now they've had an oppertunity to do some service to you please give them your blessings, even that rat which accedently got its tail on fire and offered you it by jumping up and down in pain became liberated, then why can not this deliberate offering of milk benifit the cow in such a way. I think both approaches are valid, and dont believe in condemning anyone of them as hypocracy in krishna's eyes. If you are not sure of eithers validity then be careful of condemning anyone of these approaches as hypocracy. If you are sure then you must be either arragont or self realised.

We have a few leftist and a few right wingers. I still find it starnge after all the instructions that prabhupada gave on milk and cow protection he never once said, milk use is conditional, only if you get it from protected cows can you have it. He said better from protected cows but never only from protected cows or else no milk at all. "If people are really interested in following Prabhupada's instructions on the matter they would be working on the powdered milk idea as we speak and not just taking a portion of what Prabhupada said or did to justify their continued torture and slaughter of cows. And that while lecturing the "karmis" on cow protection on top of it ." No not really dont agree, maybe you can work on the milk powder idea, there are devotees working on cow protection and doing their best single handidly and as a community, you dont want to talk about the issues that iskcon face but you want to set their priorities for them. "Your merit stands far above theirs, you have done some tangible work to please me by spreading this Krishna Consciousness message in New Orleans, that is the test. Let them do something first, then we shall see what is their criticism. Simply criticizing and no work, that is the business of inferior men. So do not be disturbed by them, go on with your work, increasing more and more. Never mind the jackals howl. Hoping this meets you in good health. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada" "This kind of criticism and counter-criticism is not good. Those who are advanced devotees try to see only the good that other devotees are doing, just as bees are attracted to honey, while flies are attracted to sores." Its easy to critise a group of devotees for not doing enough, as i said before since iskcon has gone down in the last 30 years and is in a period of stabalisation i think the instruction below applies most at this time, we are not a florishing society anymore. We need strong devotees and more of them, temples are struggling in europe and america especially to make ends meet you want them to concentrate on powdered milk? You may say "stop drinking milk until cow protection", ive not read a single statement by prabhupada like that, if you want to then you do, if you say "then dont preach cow protection", well prabhupada did, even while not having any cow protection in place. And there are devotees trying to do cow protection unfortunately their is a real lack of quality devotees that are willing to dedicate there lives these days (including myself) so maybe its not as good as you expect but hey if your not a part of the solution your a part of the probelm, you can concentrate on cow protection others see thier priorities in rejevunating the congregation and devotees. I think prabhupadas below instruction is the most relevant at the moment. I personally at the moment believe from what ive read so far, prabhupada wanted cow protection but drinking commercial milk wasnt dependant on "an allocation of time in which cow protection should be in place" or the success of cow protection. Offering the milk was of a higher cause than refraining therefore never placed such condition. He often quotes the verse from gita, flower, water, fruit and often adds milk. "..stand there is some disturbance between you, but that is not to be taken very seriously. Real business is preaching work, and if there is full attention on this matter only, all other businesses will be automatically successful. Fighting amongst ourselves is not at all good, but if our preaching work is neglected, or if we fall down in following the regulative principles such as rising before four, chanting 16 rounds, like that, if these things are not strictly observed then maya will enter and spoil everything. So my best advice to you is to strictly observe these things yourself and be the example so that all others may follow. We should not criticize each other, as Vaisnavas, because there is fault in everyone and we ourselves may be subject to criticism. Best thing is to be above suspicion ourselves, then if we see discrepancies and make suggestion the others will automatically respect and take action to rectify the matters. That is cooperation. And we must exist on such cooperation, otherwise the whole thing is doomed if we simply go on fighting over some small thing. So try to organize things and preach together in this spirit, and that will please me very, very much... work, may Krishna bless you more and more..." HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada I also still doubt how much benifit not drinking milk will have in saving the cows. As below. My friends a dentist devotee, he was telling me how he felt bad that he fixes the teath of those that will go and eat beef and contribute to anilmal slaughter, its like him loading the gun, and then them firing. Same with the dairy milk industry, no? Theist prabhu, thank you for engaging me in this discussion, ive certainly learnt alot in the past few days on this topic and still pondering. Giving up on Commercial Milk saves cows? by Syamasundara dasa Posted March 15, 2003 A perspective on whether devotees not using milk from commercial farming would save cows. There is often the suggestion that members of ISKCON should not be supporting the commercial dairy industry by purchasing its milk and products. The plight of the cows and calves in the dairy industry are mentioned and the proposal suggested is that we should refrain from implication in the abuse by not using the milk. The dairy industry in order to produce milk has to: Impregnate cows yearly to ensure the maximum yield per cow The calves that are not kept for milk production are killed as soon as the best economic situation allows. Some Channel Island bull calves have not economic viability and are killed practically immediately After a cow has served its time as a milk producer it is killed and its body enters the human food chain, unless one is in a country with BSE restrictions in which case any animals older than 36 months cannot be eaten. In this case the animal is killed and the body incinerated. Cows are fed for the purpose of getting maximum yield without any excess body weight gain. The cows, in some countries are given chemical stimulants to produce more milk Cows that do not reach the optimum milk yield are killed Cows that are disease prone are killed as the costs of medical attention in terms of drugs and time will make the cow uneconomic From the above simple analysis we can note that all the cows involved with the dairy industry enter the human food chain at some point. Very early in the case of bull calves and later in the case of milking or low milking cows. In every case they are killed prematurely. A cow can live over 20 years if cared for naturally. The cows involved with the dairy industry all end with the same fate as those cows that are bred and reared solely for the beef industry. They will all be killed and eaten. Here is my Question. Can it be shown that the drinking of milk is contributing to the number of animals being killed? We are trying to explore the depth of implication in the slaughter industry by the drinking of milk and the eating of milk products. If we stopped drinking milk would that decrease the number of animals going to slaughter? From the above we can see that all the cows are slaughtered and their bodies used in the beef industry. In other words there is a market in place to utilise their bodies. They are part of the beef industry already. If one takes the total herd of bovines’ dairy and beef they are supplying the demand for a certain amount of flesh required by the non-vegetarian population. Some thoughts are that if there was no demand for milk would that total herd number decrease. As all the flesh is already being eaten and satisfying the demands of the market then it would seam that a reduction in milk production wouldn’t decrease the number of animals killed. To develop this point further it would seam that the only way we can reduce the number of animals being killed is for more of the population to become vegetarian and thus the demand for beef to drop. The point of this argument is not to justify the drinking of milk even though cows are being slaughtered but it is to show that a position of demonstration by abstinence from milk is not actually beneficial in stopping the slaughter of cows. We should restate our understood position from many ISKCON writers that we are benefiting the cows by offering the milk to Lord Krishna and that we must drive to establish cow protection where local milk from protected cows is available. Comments on this line of discussion would be very welcome Syamasundara Dasa Goshalla Manager Bhaktivedanta Manor, UK

The point of the previous post was to get rid of the argument "srila prabhupada was unaware". Maybe your right, maybe 40 years is way too long, and since the society has gone downwards in the past 30 years and only seems to be stabalising now, it maybe time for conditional vegans, maybe for some that can hack it promoting non-tractor produced goods may also help. http://www.krishna.com/newsite/printarticles/Year_Of_Ox.html "1997--The Year of the Ox By Hare Krishna Devi Dasi According to the East Asian calendar, 1997 was the Year of the Ox. Ox power is fifty percent of cow protection, because bulls are fifty percent of the herd. Our friends the vegans may hope to escape the sin of animal slaughter by avoiding commercial milk products. But eating tractor-produced grains implicates all of us in the slaughter of bulls, because tractors deny bulls their God-given work of tilling the field. Hardly one bull calf can be saved from the slaughterhouse even by a thousand vegans. If there is no use for the bull calf, the farmer must kill him. The real way to save the bull is to engage him in productive work. When you work with a trained ox, you see how he enjoys working. The ox has big muscles, and like an athlete he gets pleasure from using them. The ox likes working as an intimate partner to a human being who shows gratitude for the ox's power and loyalty. And the ox can help us toward a simple life conducive to spiritual advancement." interesting article http://www.salagram.net/vege-Vegan-choice.html

I think srila prabhupada was aware of cows being milked and slaughtered. Read below. I think many arguments have been presented for and against drinking milk, I think everyone agrees the ideal is to have our own communities, its the grey area in between that we have been debating. A conversation in 1976, Devotee (2): Srila Prabhupada, they say that only the human has a soul, therefore it's wrong to kill humans. But other animals you can kill because there is no soul. That is their argument. Devotee (3): They'll ask what should be killed and what shouldn't be killed for eating? Where do we draw the line? Prabhupada: No, you, we are speaking go-raksya. That is not point of view of killing. There are other animals. We do not say that you stop. If you want to eat some meat, at least don't kill cow. You can kill other insignificant animals which has no importance. Cow has got special importance because it supplies milk, and milk is very essential food that is... From the childhood, a child lives on milk, and there are many saintly persons, they also live by drinking milk. Milk is very important item in the human society, and it supplies all vitamins. Even if you say that "Meat-eating is essential for me," you can eat other animals, but don't kill cows. That is our proposal. Give protection to the cows. Krsna mentioned specifically, go-raksya. He does not say that you don't kill, but you give protection to the cows. And if you want to eat meat, you can kill other animals. On the whole, pasu-himsa, any animal killing, is not good for spiritual life. And so far vegetable is concerned, everyone has to eat something. So if you can eat vegetables, that does not mean because somebody is killing vegetables, he should kill his own father and mother on that plea. So cow is mother because we are drinking her milk. So you cannot put any argument in favor of killing mother. If you... Anyone who supplies milk from the body, she is mother. According to Vedic civilization, cow is one of the seven mothers. There are seven mothers: the real mother, atma-mata guroh patni, the wife of spiritual master; then queen, raja-patnika. Atma-mata guroh patni brahmani, the wife of a brahmana. In this way, especially, seven mothers, dhenu, dhenu means cow, and dhatri, nurse, she is also mother. So from that point of view, cow is mother, and you cannot kill on any ground the mother. That is not good reasoning. You are taking the last drop of milk. In South Africa you said? Pusta Krsna: Yes. They have one slaughterhouse and just beside, I have seen, just beside there is dairy. So at night they bring the cows in to the dairy, milk them to the last drop, and then to the slaughterhouse and all night screaming. I heard because the Indian neighborhood was about five hundred yards from the slaughterhouse. Then in the morning you'd drive by and the carcasses are hanging up. Prabhupada: So you are drawing the last drop of milk from the cow and sending her to the slaughterhouse. Is that very good civilization? Dr. Sharma: Swamiji, the beef industry here is based more on... The argument of mother would be a little weak. Prabhupada: Hm? Dr. Sharma: The beef industry here is more based on steers, which are not, which are basically bulls given high estrogens and bred in that way. Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, we are layman, and we follow Krsna's instruction that cow, milk is very important, we drink the cow's milk, therefore she is mother. So at least she should be saved from being killed. This is common sense. Apart from other big, big reasoning, we take it, Krsna says go-raksya, so we take it. Besides that, so far vegetables are concerned, Krsna says that patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati: "If anyone offers Me even patram," patram puspam phalam toyam,"I eat them." So we take Krsna's prasadam. So Krsna says "You give Me these vegetables, plants." So we offer Him, and then we take. Besides that, everybody has to eat something. So generally, food grains, vegetables, they are recommended for eating purpose. And those who want to eat meat or fish, they can do so, but at least they can avoid the important life of cow. That is recommended. So far we are concerned, we are eating Krsna prasadam, foodstuff offered to Krsna, and this, there is no such thing as meat or fish, or egg, but we are living. Not that because we do not eat meat or fish, we are dying. We can eat very easily. Anna. Annad bhavanti bhutani. Actually, if we take food grains like wheat, rice, pulses, vegetables, fruits, milk, that is quite sufficient, nutritious foodstuff, full with vitamins and, what is called, protein, carbohydrate. That is sufficient. Why should we kill? At least, cow? That is our request, because Krsna says go-raksya. And in His practical life He played as a cowherd boy giving protection to other cows. There is a picture, Krsna is sitting, and the cow and the calf is feeling very safety. Krsna is embracing. So because we want to be Krsna conscious, we want to follow His personal behavior and instruction. Guest (1): Prabhupada? For every animal except the cow, you said, like a..., does a person have to pay off a one-to-one ratio for the animal killed? He just has to come back one time for, like, killing a goat? Is it just one time then, instead of many times? Prabhupada: Hm? Pusta Krsna: His question is that is there some formula, that if you kill one animal or one thing then you get killed in the exact same ratio? You kill one thing, you get killed once. So in other words, if you are responsible for killing hundreds and hundreds of animals throughout your lifetime, does one have to take birth hundreds and hundreds of times and be killed? Prabhupada: Yes. For killing, you cannot kill even vegetable. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada The below is very clear he knew about the horrors, he doesnt want to describe it in bhagvatam due to the horrors, he could of said we should avoid milk from this ghastly practice, but he hasnt anywhere, instead he continued to drink it and allow his disciples to. bhagvatam 1.17.3 The cow's milk is required for the sacrificial fire, and by performing sacrifices the householder can be happy. The cow's calf not only is beautiful to look at, but also gives satisfaction to the cow, and so she delivers as much milk as possible. But in the Kali-yuga, the calves are separated from the cows as early as possible for purposes which may not be mentioned in these pages of Srimad-Bhagavatam. The cow stands with tears in her eyes, the sudra milkman draws milk from the cow artificially, and when there is no milk the cow is sent to be slaughtered. These greatly sinful acts are responsible for all the troubles in present society. People do not know what they are doing in the name of economic development. The influence of Kali will keep them in the darkness of ignorance. Despite all endeavors for peace and prosperity, they must try to see the cows and the bulls happy in all respects. Foolish people do not know how one earns happiness by making the cows and bulls happy, but it is a fact by the law of nature. Let us take it from the authority of Srimad-Bhagavatam and adopt the principles for the total happiness of humanity. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada another converstaion below their are plenty more, prabhupada suggests in other conversations that the farmers should wait for the cows to die naturally. Syamakunda: Prabhupada, yesterday in this book it said that when a cow gets so old, the most economic solution to do with it is not to waste the meat, that it should be slaughtered. Prabhupada: Hm? Syamakunda: The karmis, they say that its... When you have this cow that won't give any more milk and its teeth are rotten where its going to die--it can't hardly eat properly--that it's a waste to not use that meat to feed people. It should be slaughtered. Prabhupada: I have written? Pusta Krsna: No. He's saying in a karmi book. Syamakunda: They say that the economically proper thing to do is to kill the cow after it, er, and not waste the meat. Prabhupada: And who will take? When he'll die, who will take his meat? That is also economical. Why don't you give it to the animal-eaters instead of wasting it? Why they bury in the ground? Why? Let it be thrown eating by the jackals or anybody else. Syamakunda: The people should eat their..., the people, then, according to that philosophy, right? Prabhupada: No, when man is dead, why the economic calculation is not taken? Hm? Devotee (2): Because they think it is animallike. Prabhupada: Animal or a man, when it is dead, then it is the same value. Is there any difference of value between the animal body and man's body? Devotee (2): They think it is barbaric. Prabhupada: "They think," but you think like human being. Pusta Krsna: But the animal has no soul. Prabhupada: Soul or not soul, when the body is dead, is there any difference of value? HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada I hope that clears up the argument "maybe srila prabhupada wasnt aware" especially the quote from bhagvatam. My point is that their is a grey area,(for some its black and white), read, research and come to your own conclusions, im still learning about this topic.

I guess we should be as thoughtful as possible, I remember the example of radhanatha swami, he saw that some of his diciples would ignore the beggers, from then he asked all his disciples to keep prashad with them to give to the beggers. I was thinking whats the big deal? So I asked one of the bramhacharis why was maharaj so concerned about it. The bramhachari said that by ignoring the sufferings of others the heart becomes hard, and spiritual life with a hard heart is impossible. I remember the first time i went to india i felt so bad for all the poor people and beggers, after hearing form others just to ignore it I slowly become oblivious to thier suffering, now again im trying to give something whenever i go and slowly that compassion is increasing again as im at least akcnowledging them now. I think its the same with this milk issue, if we dont use the suffering of the cow to make our hearts softer may be by minimising milk or contributing to cow care then we'll miss an oppotunity to make our hearts soft, even by seeing world poverty and all the other injustices in the world and actually akcnowledging it we can regain renewed inspiration to do something about it, either by direct action or/and through renewed preaching spirit. Just like in the films if a soft hearted person sees so mcuh pain and suffering his family being killed, he'll feel it more greatly than someone with a hard heart and thus will be more determined to do something about it. Every time we ignore an issue like this it becomes easier to ignore. Just like when a thief first steals he fights with his concious whether its right or wrong but then it becomes less of a fight with his concious and after a while he doesnt feel any remorse.

Such a nice discussion.

Srila prabhupada has given us the basic formula to become krishna concious. If milk from commercial cows is so bad he should of empasised it. especially if little things such as tea and coffee even choclate he talked about. He was also strong on onion and garlic, no mention of commercial milk in a bad light. Prabhupada also preaches simple living and high thinking, yet bhaktisidhanta maharaj rode in to radha kund in a jaguar(I think). Prabhupada made use of so many complicated things. Is this him contridicting himself? No its the principle of yukta vairagya, just as using milk from non protected cows and then preaching cow protection? I agree im a hypocite but dont agree that when pure devotees who dedicate 100% of their lives in krsnas service and drink commercial milk they are hypocrites, I guess from PETA's mundane point of view they are, but not from krsnas point of view, from krsnas point of view they are like a touchstone and whatever they come in to contact with is greatly benifited. Hari Hari

Guru directed to protect the oxen as well, by eating tractor produced food your directly contributing to oxen slaughter. Thus we should not also eat food produced by tractors as this also directly contributes to oxen slaugheter. http://www.krishna.com/newsite/printarticles/Green_Tractor.html Anayway we are going to go round and round again. Prabhupada asked us to set up cow protection/farm communities, he never once said give up commercial milk, or buy foods only from non-tractor using farms, even though he recognised tractors contributed to oxen slaughter. My Dear Nityananda, Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated February 21st, 1977, and I have noted the contents. The New Talavan Review and the brochure are both very nicely done and I thank you for them. So far as Gurukula is concerned, literary education is for the Brahminical class, not for all. Others should learn by seeing, like the ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras. Just like driving a bullock cart; it doesn't require education. Modern so-called education is simply a waste of time producing hippies. Shameless! Why compulsory education? To make hippies--compulsory education to degrade. So it is very fortunate that there is no compulsory education required by the state of Mississippi. Whatever is available easily we can use. There is no objection to using electricity. But we should not be dependent upon it. Produce oil from castor seeds and stock the oil sufficiently. It can be used in so many ways--for burning, grease, cooking, and as a purgative to cure all diseases. And oxen can be used for driving carts and go preaching village to village. What is the question of killing them? Here in India our Lokanatha Maharaja has successfully organized such a program and it is a great success. He has travelled all over India and everywhere they distribute books, prasadam and perform kirtana, village to village. Each night they stop at a different village. We can introduce many millions of such carts all over the world. If you are getting enough milk from the cows simply by pasturing them, then that is all right. But if you require more then you may have to feed them special grains. We want to do whatever is easy and save time for Krishna consciousness. As far as you are able to adjust to a natural way of life, do it immediately. Our principle is that we are against nothing and for nothing. Only for Krishna. We want whatever is favorable for Krishna. I am returning one Deity photo to you. This dressing style is not authorized. But the other photos are very nice. Please go on very enthusiastically developing your farming community. I hope this meets you in the best of health. Your ever well-wisher, A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada There are gradations from the ideal and whatever evryone can do is great. But im against those that try and make commercial milk abstenace like the fifth regulative principle. The ideal is live on a farm, then you wont contribute to any slaughter, using oxen to create your food, and as your transport. We have the minimum standards given by srila prabhupada and then we have his ideal vision, its up to all of us how far each of us go to meet the ideal vedic society, to demonise those that dont come to your standard is not what prabhupada wanted, he encouraged us to meet the ideal but was happy with those that met the minimum and became krsna concious. "We want to do whatever is easy and save time for Krishna consciousness. As far as you are able to adjust to a natural way of life, do it immediately. Our principle is that we are against nothing and for nothing. Only for Krishna. We want whatever is favorable for Krishna." Anyway looks like we're doing another circle round. Haribol

For all the moralists please also write to your goverments about their contribution to the arms trade http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2003/09/276557.pdf Some shocking facts if we dont protect the mothers and children on our planets we are hypocrites, if you devotees dont do nothing then you are hypocrites. Prabhupada wanted women and children protected. http://www.krishna.com/newsite/printarticles/Year_Of_Ox.html 1997--The Year of the Ox By Hare Krishna Devi Dasi According to the East Asian calendar, 1997 was the Year of the Ox. Ox power is fifty percent of cow protection, because bulls are fifty percent of the herd. Our friends the vegans may hope to escape the sin of animal slaughter by avoiding commercial milk products. But eating tractor-produced grains implicates all of us in the slaughter of bulls, because tractors deny bulls their God-given work of tilling the field. Hardly one bull calf can be saved from the slaughterhouse even by a thousand vegans. If there is no use for the bull calf, the farmer must kill him. The real way to save the bull is to engage him in productive work. When you work with a trained ox, you see how he enjoys working. The ox has big muscles, and like an athlete he gets pleasure from using them. The ox likes working as an intimate partner to a human being who shows gratitude for the ox's power and loyalty. And the ox can help us toward a simple life conducive to spiritual advancement. In this Year of the Ox, let's think about the advantages of letting Father Bull do his part in building a peaceful, Krishna conscious society. Here's a comparison: ox power vs. tractor power. Plowing speed Tractor: one tractor with a five-bottom plow: 20 acres a day, one super tractor with a twelve-bottom plow: 80 acres a day Ox: one team of two oxen pulling a single-bottom plow: 1 acre a day, three ox teams pulling a double-bottom plow: 3 to 4 acres a day Fuel Tractor: gasoline Ox: grains, legumes, grasses By-products Tractor: pollutants, gas fumes, large hunks of junked equipment Ox: While alive: manure, convertible into clean-burning bio-gas and top-quality organic fertilizer. After natural death: leather and horn for crafts Purchase price 1 tractor: $20,000 to $250,000. Equipment: thousands more A team of 2 oxen: $200 (2 100-pound bull calves bought at "meat value," $1 a pound). Equipment: a few hundred dollars (less if homemade) Maintenance Tractor: Expensive mechanical repairs. In third-world countries, parts sometimes impossible to obtain. Ox: Health care by the local farmer and vet. Tool-fixing by any blacksmith or handyman. Main economic mode Tractor: Capital-intensive, market-oriented. Grain farmer needs at least 400 acres to survive. Ox: Labor-intensive, subsistence-oriented. Farmer can feed his family well with 5 good acres. Employment Tractor: One man can farm many acres, putting dozens of men out of work. Ox: One man can farm only a few acres. Nearly everyone in the village gets involved in growing food. Distribution of Wealth Tractor: Well-being and comfort for a few, at the expense of many. Cash moves towards the corporation. Ox: The farmer lives in modest comfort, not much better or worse off than his neighbors. Cash stays in the community. Environmental Impact Tractor: Born of a factory, spawned by mines, refineries, and oil wells, fed on petrol. Batters the soil. Ox: Born of a mother, fed by the earth. Treads benignly on the soil. What it does for the poor Tractor: Makes grain hi-tech and costly. Pushes the poor into dependence on local charity and international handouts Ox: Empowers the poor to grow their own food, securing their long-term welfare. Violence Tractor: Makes oxen useless for plowing, dooming bull calves to slaughter. Drives farmers off their land and into joblessness, bringing land under the grip of a few. Ox: Works peacefully, in natural partnership with man. Spiritual Development Tractor: Chains a man to a roaring, dangerous, bone-jarring machine. Drags farming into the world of commodities speculation and land grabbing. Drives farmers out of the fields and onto the streets of the city. Ruins spiritual development. Ox: Works with the farmer at quiet, wholesome labor. Upholds a life of dependence on God and thankfulness for the bounty of the land. Pulls toward a simple, honest life in a natural setting for spiritual advancement. Sustainability Tractor: Finished as soon as cheap petroleum runs out. Ox: Can't sustain itself where agribusiness is the norm and land prices are driven up by speculation. You can't farm with oxen on land that costs $6000 an acre. But under spiritually enlightened leaders who protect the land and accept taxes in the form of grains and produce, ox-power farming can sustain itself, on and on and on. Maybe while your at it you should also protest against capitalism, which has caused animal cruelty on a larger scale, arms dealing, greater world poverty by robbing poor nations, aswell abolishing all medcines tested on animals or maybe compile a list to see which ones are vegan friendly. Or am i now getting silly? where do we draw the line? guru?

"The Mother cow that gives YOUR milk will be slaughtered will young after she no longer produces the maxim quota of milk and her flesh sold by the butchers of the world apparently cannot touch your heart so enjoy her pus filled stolen blood milk to your hearts content. Bon Apetite." It does but our solutions differ. If devotees want to give up milk then good on them, im not against that and have never stated im against it, its just annoying when devotees try and shuv it down your throat as one of the most important things we have to do. How far do you go, we should also protect the father, the oxen, prabhupada stated that, should we use only food where oxen farming has been used? Why dont you find out and set up a group. All women are our mothers, why dont you do something about all the abused and surpressed women of the world? You doing nothing contributes to their suffering. "It is amazing how you use the same arguments that others do to justify their own flesh eating. Maybe not so amzing when I think about it." I follow guru sadha shastra, if krishna wanted me to kill animals i would, if he wanted me to kill armies then i should no matter how much suffering it caused, if prabhupada has allowed us to drink milk then you to say "no actually he ment only if you set up farm communities you can drink milk", I dont buy it. Devotees get sentimental about so many mundane causes, il try and do my bit but the ultimate solution is to do what srila prabhupada asked us to do which is to make people krishna concious spreading the spitual message, very little use trying to patch up material problems by spreading PETA's,greenpeaces, gayrights,womens rights messages, these happen naturally like watering the tree solves material problems. Should we use an oxen vehicle? Should we use oxen farming foods only? Ideally yes. Will you? most likely no. We dont live in an ideal society, prabhupada has given us the minimum standards if you want to add more standards then god bless you, hopes it makes you, the cows and others more krsna concious.

"But vijay I don't think there is a need to bring in all the other ISKCON problems into this issue. That just complicates things unnecessarily. There are devotees right this moment working hard on this project of cow protection. They should be supported." "Prabhupada said to make powdered milk and sell it. So if ISKCON would focus on that enough to get the program solidly off the ground it would quickly become self-sufficent and this whole thing would be behind the movement. " You say there is no need to bring in iskons issues, then you say that iskcon should focus on it. Go-raksha where ever it can happen where there is a critical mass of devotees then thats fine unfortunately we do not have big communities they have gone down like i pointed out. Go-raksha is for mans special material benifit as prabhupada says, and the emphasis is secondary, increase in book distribution, schools, preaching, enthusiasm among devotees, comes before cow protection, if the core activities were florishing then cow protection would also florish. Thats my simple point. I liked harkrishnadasa's point about how far do you go, maybe we should buy wheat grounded by oxens, or if we cant do that then pay an extra percentage on our bread and petrol so that we can create facilities. Its as a direct result from farms using tractors that oxen have been slughtered, maybe we shouldnt buy no food from these farms. Else we are hypocrites as thats what we preach.

"Gauracandra understands this thing perfectly. It is now in a pattern where it will just drift deeper and deeper into inertia. " I agree with the inertia argument, however i dont think the inertia is the cow protection that is a part of a deeper inertia that has taken place. 30 years ago way more book distribution was occuring, more devotees being trained up and living in the ashrams, generally more enthusiasm and courage to preach big, ie george harisons, ambrish prabhu's, after prabhupada's depature these core activities have gone down heavily, creating was easy, maintance seems harder, we seem to be going through a consilidation and purification stage as well as the danger of major inertia. My point is in priorities, I sincerely believe that concentration in these core activities will bring about self sufficient communities and varnashrama. Im not saying that these things should be neglected, just that iskcons priorities need to be to re-sucitate the core activites prabhupada recomended which are and have been in decline since he left, else iskcon will never really make an impact again. After so many guru fall downs, so many temples which are massive in land ans scale dont have any man power to run them, the temple in sweden was massive with so many devotees, living there, now theres 2 devotees living there struggling, being helped by some congragation, same with temples ive seen in italy germany and spain. The temple i go to the bahktivedanta manor is suppose to be one of the best in europe, yet they need to import devotees form india and europe to take care of it. Im also aware that this is the condition in many temples in north america if not worse. Therefore Iskcon devotees may be hypocrites but they are trying to recover from a collapse and thus there are priorities in projects, i dont see that as kicking the can. If a devotee is willing to head up a project if they feel strongly about it then great, the problem is that there are so many demands but not enough devotees willing to put words in to action.

didnt see your post. I guess as long as devotees try and follow srila prabhupada like he asked and prioritise as he would of (not to how others prioritise) to our capacity then we will avoid hypocracy else we will be hypocrites whether we give up commercial milk or maintain it. Hari Hari

Can you answer one question thiest prabhu, do you believe prabhupada was a hypocrite for drinking commercial milk and for allowing his disciples to drink milk? It will just make it easier when i reply to you as then i dont assume certain things.

Please il ask once again give me evidence by not drinking commerciual milk it will reduce cow-slaughter (there will be less dairy cows replaced with non-diary cows for the appitite of carnivors.) -- "For the hundrdth time it seems. When you buy the milk from unprotected cows, you are directly supporting their enslavement torture and slaughter. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?" By you declariung it a hundreth time and thinking its so obvious doesnt constitute evidence. "Are you really trying to use the ole "well if they weren't killed for me they would be killed for someone else" routine to dodge the responsibility for your own actions? It doesn't work that way. Why not wear leather then?" Leather results from cow slaughter, the more leather we use the more cows will be killed. Just like the more cows we eat results in more cows being killed. Thefore milk is not anaolgous to leather. Besides im not saying "well if they weren't killed for me they would be killed for someone else" Im saying that the reason they are killed is for beef not for milk, they are not being killed for me in the first place. Again if you provide me evidence that if i stooped drinking milk less cows will be killed then give it, i dont regard you saying something a hundred times as athoritive. "You are not striving for cow protection. That is simply a falsehood. You are talking about it and preaching that cows should be protected by society but you are not protecting in fact you are partaking of the fruit of their horror. I do see that as hypocritical." Thats a bold statement, now if your talking about me personlally like you asked last time, then the answer is the same, i am doing something about cow protection, with my laxmi, and time, we have plans at bhaktivedanta manor for europes biggest gowshalla with laxmi in place, this will encourage others also. Its got mills that the bulls work, workshops for school children, and other features. the council has asked the plans to be reduced as they do not like us form the time they tried to shut us down. So i cant take your statement seriously. "You are not striving for cow protection. That is simply a falsehood" "You are talking about it and preaching that cows should be protected by society but you are not protecting in fact you are partaking of the fruit of their horror. I do see that as hypocritical." Well as i said that milk used in krsihnas service is better than abstinance, you may think mercy is not taking the milk, others believe that milk used in krsnas service is greater mercy than abstinence. (As milk is offerable, by scripture and the deeds of our acarya) "Please do not tell you are convinced of his approach. You are convinced of a portion of his approach. The portion where you drink cows milk but not the portion where you protect the cows that give that milk." again if your talking about me personally your statements are not true. If your talking about our society ISKCON then yes it has alot to do, it needs to preach more, look after the women and the children, sort out many things, like so many people with differing issues point out. Thanks for that, hopefully devotees will help in an ecouraging way than a negative way. "Our positions should be rather clear by now, don't you agree?" Nearly clear.