Sonic Yogi

Have you ever thought about bungee jumping as a release? Just let 'er all hang out.

If we descended from Apes, then why are there still apes around? If apes evolved into humans then there shouldn't be any apes left. If evolution is a law of nature, then there would be no apes left on the planet because as a species that would have evolved into humans. Science can't have it both ways. They can't say that apes evolved into humans while the ape species still exists in many types. If evolution were real, then there would be no apes left on Earth. They would have all evolved into NASA scientists, brain surgeons, computer engineers and Rock musicians.

Here is the most comprehensive explanation of Siva tattva that I have found. It is for the most part the most definitive exposition on Siva tattva. http://www.purebhakti.com/teachers/bhakti-discourses-mainmenu-61/19-discourses-2000/166-the-glories-of-lord-siva-and-siva-ratri.html (argument over?) Special thanks to Narayana Maharaja for his excellent exposition of Siva-tattva.

I do understand what you are trying to say. But, my point is that the Lord Siva of the material world is an amsha or a fractional portion of the Sadasiva. He is not a different Siva. He is a partial manifestation of Sadasiva. Lord Siva is not a second Godhead from Sadasiva. He is a fractional portion of Sadasiva. Its just like the many avatars of Krishna. There are some avatars with absolute Vishnu-tattva potency and some manifesting only partial power of Vishnu. Still, these partial manifestation of Vishnu are also referred to as avatars of Vishnu, even though they might only represent a partial portion of the complete powers of Vishnu. Sure, I concede that Sadasiva in Vaikuntha is the complete and total form and power of Shiva, but I don't agree that the Lord Sivas in the material world derive their "Shivahood" from any other source than Sadasiva.

Years ago it came to me that "Godhead" is not actually a place but a nomenclature for the Supreme Being. Like most all other devotees I am prone to think of Godhead as being a place, a residence, an abode like Krsnaloka where many devotees think we originally were, but due to being envious of Krishna fell from to the material world to be an imitation lord enjoying the material energy. But, I think there needs to be some thinking done about the actual terminology "Godhead" and the phrase "Back Home, Back to Godhead". What throws us all off is when "Back Home" gets connected with "Back to Godhead". That is why so many of us have erroneously conceived of "Godhead" as a place rather than a person. Quite frankly, I am a little befuddled at why "Back Home" has been used in conjunction with "Back to Godhead" as Godhead is a deity or a person as opposed to a place of residence. No dictionary definition or Wikipedia reference I can find ever defines "Godhead" as a place. Godhead is always a term for a deity or for God. So, I am just somewhat exasperated with this expression "Back Home, Back to Godhead" in as much as it tends to mislead people into thinking of Godhead as a place instead of a person. Even in the books of Srila Prabhupada he always uses "Godhead" in reference to Vishnu-tattva or Krishna. He never uses Godhead to refer to a place as the spiritual sky or one of the spiritual planets. On the Back to Godhead magazine we find the the slogan: "Godhead is light. Nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience." Even here on the Back to Godhead magazine we find Srila Prabhupada defining Godhead as "light". He does not refer to Godhead as a place but as light. Am I the only one who finds the "Back Home, Back to Godhead" theme a little bit befuddling?

Chant Hare Krishna and be happy. I found that to actually be realistic. Try it sometime. You might just like it.

I am not hearing that.

That's not it bro. I just reject your psychedelic version of what you think in all your confusion that they are saying. They don't say there are two Shivas. You are the only person that ever said that. Put down the joint and read a little deeper. Read all the stuff I posted already and you might get over your delusions of their being two different Shiva-tattvas. Do you have any idea of how ridiculous you sound? The Hare Krishna movement has been going on since 1965 in the USA and then in 2009 Gaurahari das, disciple of Ramesvar Swami, pops up on a forum and says "guess what peeps? - there are two different kinds of Lord Sivas". For almost 45 years in the Hare Krishna movement there has only been one Shiva-tattva until 2009 Gaurahari das decides to shock all the devotees with his latest LSD induced realization that there are two different kinds of Lord Shivas. Really bro, you need to chill and quit trying to be some psychedelic messiah who knows things others don't because they didn't take anough LSD.

It's quite simple Shiva. If Vishnu empowers a living entity with Vishnu-tattva powers does that then mean there are two Vishnus? The same principle applies to Shiva tattva. The Gaudiya acharyas never said that there are two different Shivas. It's just a mistake in the way you interpolate their descriptions of Shiva-tattva being manifested through a jiva. Whether Shiva manifests through Vishnu-tattva or jiva-tattva, there is still only one Shiva-tattva.

If I had the land and the money, I would love to have some cows. Unfortunately, in this day and age in the western countries they make it almost impossible to protect cows because you need lots of land for all the old retired cows and bulls. It is a damn shame. Cows are so beautiful. But, since I can't protect a cow I have chosen to care for a cute little Beagle dog that wondered into our yard and was not being protected. She is a very sweet little dog and very cute as well. I couldn't stand to just let her run wild around the neighborhood until she got out on the road and got killed, so I took her in. She wasn't more than a pup at the time. The people that owned her weren't watching out for her so I chained her up in the yard. When they came over to get her I was going to tell them to not let her run around without a collar or she would get killed. They never showed up so I have been taking care of her since then. Cows are great, but I am not going to abuse or neglect any animal that is in trouble.

Vishnu-bhakti is not the path to Moksha. Vishnu-bhakti is the path to Vishnu-bhakti and Moksha is just a by-product of Vishnu-bhakti. Those who think Vishnu-bhakti is the path to Moksha are generally impersonalists who want to become God. Vishnu-bhakti is the end, it is not a path Moksha. Those who use Vishnu-bhakti as a path to Moksha and not the path to Vsihnu-bhakti or love of Godhead are self-interested. Desiring Moksha is a selfish ambition. That is why the Gaudiya acharyas only teach that the goal of love of Godhead should be the only desire. We should not seek Moksha. We should only seek service in love. Moksha is a by-product of that.

If it's ok with you I will just stick to the siddhanta the way Prabhupada teaches it in his books and he never taught that there are TWO different Shivas. Show me where Prabhupada teaches there are two different Shivas that are unrelated in Shiva-tattva. There is one Shiva-tattva with various manifestations, some greater some lesser. There aren't two Shiva-tattvas. There aren't two Vishnu-tattvas. There is one Shiva tattva. So, you are telling me the Lord of oneness has two different types? You make me laugh. Example: Vyasadeva is an empowered jiva - shaktyavesha avatar. Is he still not referred to in shastra as a powerful incarnation of Narayan? When Shiva-tattva becomes manifest in a jiva that jiva ceases to be a jiva and is functionally Shiva. It is Shiva-tattva being manifest in the jiva. But, that doesn't mean that there are two different kinds of Shiva-tattva. Vyasadeva is jiva tattva who became empowered as Vishnu tattva - an incarnation of Narayana. As Sridhar Maharaja explained, shaktyavesha means that Krishna comes down and works through a particular living being. If Shiva tattva becomes manifest in a jiva that doesn't mean that there are two different Shivas. If Shiva manifests his powers through a jiva that doesn't make two different Shivas. One Shiva manifesting in different ways and different forms.

How convenient that you quote no shastra in your spasm of Fallvadi hallucination. I guess we are just supposed to take your word for it?

There are not two Shivas. You made up that up behind a joint. There is one Shiva with numerous forms. You can't show anywhere in shastra that says there are two different Shivas. That's just something you made up on the spur of the moment. You don't know diddly about Shiva tattva.

Why do so many ladies worship Lord Siva? Lord Siva is the husband of Sati, one of the sisters of Diti. Diti invoked the pleasure of her sister Sati so that Sati would request her husband to excuse her. Besides that, Lord Siva is the worshipable lord of all women. He is naturally very kind towards women, on whom even the uncivilized hunters also show their mercy. Since Lord Siva is himself associated with women, he knows very well their defective nature, and he might not take very seriously Diti's unavoidable offense, which occurred due to her faulty nature. Every virgin girl is supposed to be a devotee of Lord Siva. Diti remembered her childhood worship of Lord Siva and begged his mercy. (SB 3.14.36 p.) Today in Hindu society, unmarried girls are still taught to worship Lord Siva with the idea that they may get husbands like him. Lord Siva is the ideal husband, not in the sense of riches or sense gratification, but because he is the greatest of all devotees. Vaisnavanam yatha Sambhuh: Sambhu, or Lord Siva, is the ideal Vaisnava. He constantly meditates upon Lord Rama and chants Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. Lord Siva has a Vaisnava sampradaya, which is called the visnu Svami-sampradaya. Unmarried girls worship Lord Siva so that they can expect a husband who is as good a Vaisnava as he. The girls are not taught to select a husband who is very rich or very opulent for material sense gratification; rather, if a girl is fortunate enough to get a husband as good as Lord Siva in devotional service, then her life becomes perfect. The wife is dependent on the husband, and if the husband is a Vaisnava, then naturally she shares the devotional service of the husband because she renders him service. (SB 3.23.1 p.) Why does Siva have snakes all over his body? In order to get release from the false ego, one has to worship Sankarsana. Sankarsana is also worshiped through Lord Siva; the snakes which cover the body of Lord Siva are representations of Sankarsana, and Lord Siva is always absorbed in meditation upon Sankarsana. (SB 3.26.21 p.) Do Vaisnavas take the prasada of Lord Siva? It is said that among all the devotees of the Personality of Godhead, Lord Siva is the greatest. Thus the remnants of foodstuff left by him are accepted by other devotees as maha-prasada, or great spiritual foodstuff. The remnants of foodstuff offered to Lord Krsna are called prasada, but when the same prasada is eaten by a great devotee like Lord Siva, it is called maha-prasada. Lord Siva is so great that he does not care for the material prosperity for which every one of us is so eager. Parvati, who is the powerful material nature personified, is under his full control as his wife, yet he does not use her even to build a residential house. He prefers to remain without shelter, and his great wife also agrees to live with him humbly. People in general worship goddess Durga, the wife of Lord Siva, for material prosperity, but Lord Siva engages her in his service without material desire. He simply advises his great wife that of all kinds of worship, the worship of visnu is the highest, and greater than that is the worship of a great devotee or anything in relation with Visnu. (SB 3.14.26 p.) What is the position of Lord Siva? In the Vamana Purana it is said that the same Visnu expands Himself as Brahma and Siva to direct the different qualities. (CC Adi 5.104 p.) Mahesvara, or Lord Siva, is not an ordinary living being, nor is he equal to Lord Visnu. Effectively comparing Lord Visnu and Lord Siva, the Brahma-samhita says that Visnu is like milk, whereas Siva is like yogurt. Yogurt is nothing like milk, but nevertheless it is milk also. (CC Adi 5.105 p.) What does it mean that "Lord Siva is non-different from Krsna"? Srila Jiva Gosvami in his Bhakti-sandarbha (213) has clearly explained that a pure devotee’s observation of the spiritual master and Lord Siva as being one with the Personality of Godhead exists in terms of their being very dear to the Lord, not identical with Him in all respects. (CC Adi 1.46 p.) Who are the expansions of Lord Siva? "Rudra, who is an expansion of Sadasiva and who appears in unlimited universes, is also a gunavatara [qualitative incarnation] and is the ornament of all the demigods in the endless universes." Is Lord Siva worshiped through the taking of intoxicants? We should always consider the position of the isvaras, or those who can actually control the movements of the sun and moon, as superior. Without such power, one cannot imitate the isvaras, who are superpowerful. Lord Siva drank poison to the extent of swallowing an ocean, but if any common man tries to drink even a fragment of such poison, he will be killed. There are many pseudo devotees of Lord Siva who want to indulge in smoking ganja (marijuana) and similar intoxicating drugs, forgetting that by so imitating the acts of Lord Siva they are calling death very near. Similarly, there are some pseudo devotees of Lord Krsna who prefer to imitate the Lord in His rasa-lila, or dance of love, forgetting their inability to lift Govardhana Hill. It is best, therefore, that one not try to imitate the powerful, but simply follow their instructions; nor should one try to occupy their posts without qualification. There are so many "incarnations" of God without the power of the Supreme Godhead. (BG 3.24 p.) What is the nature of the worshipers of different devas (gods)? When the mode of goodness is mixed with the mode of passion, one worships the sun-god, Vivasvan. When the mode of goodness is mixed with the mode of ignorance, one worships Ganapati, or Ganesa. When the mode of passion is mixed with the mode of ignorance, one worships Durga, or Kali, the external potency. When one is simply in the mode of ignorance, one becomes a devotee of Lord Siva because Lord Siva is the predominating deity of the mode of ignorance within this material world. However, when one is completely free from the influence of all the modes of material nature, one becomes a pure Vaisnava on the devotional platform. (CC Madhya 24.330 p.) Why did Lord Ramachandra worship Siva? He (Lord Krsna and Lord Rama) likes to worship His devotee. Sometimes the father takes the child on his shoulder. Does it mean the child is more important than the father? They say [in] the Valmiki Ramayana, there is no such incidence as Ramacandra worships Siva. It is later on, interpretation. But even if He does so, what is the wrong here? (room conversation, Dec 23, 1975 Mumbai) Mahabharata, Shanti Parva (12.328.5 onwards, dialogue between Lord Krishna and Arjuna): brAhme rAtrikShaye prApte tasya hy amitatejasaH prasAdAtprAdurabhavatpadmaM padmanibhekShaNa tatra brahmA samabhavatsa tasyaiva prasAdajaH In the brahma muhurta, at the end of the night, due to the mercy of the extremely brilliant Lord, a lotus emerged from His navel and in that lotus, Brahma was born, ofcourse, due to His grace. ahnaH kShaye lalAtAchcha suto devasya vai tathA krodhAviShTasya sa~njaGYe rudraH saMhAra kArakaH etau dvau vibudhashreShThau prasAdakrodhajau smR^itau At the end of the day, the Lord [present as antaryAmi of Brahma *] created Rudra out of krodha-guna, to enable him to be the 'samhara-karta'. Thus, these two 'fine-among-wise', Brahma and Rudra, are known to have been born out of grace and anger respectively. * This interpretation is necessary because in the later sections of Moksadharma, Brahma addresses Rudra as a son. tadAdeshita panthAnau sR^iShTi saMhAra kArakau nimittamAtraM tAvatra sarvaprAni varapradau Thus, they carry out the instructed tasks of creation and destruction. However, they, the givers of boons to all the creatures, are just the agents. kapardI jatilo mundaH shmashAnagR^ihasevakaH ugravratadharo rudro yogI tripuradAruNaH dakShakratuharashchaiva bhaga netraharastathA [Rudra has] braided hair with knot of an ascetic and rest of the head bald. He dwells in the home of graveyard, steadfast on vigorous penance as a yogi. He is ferocious to Tripurasuras, destroyed Daksayajna and took away the eyes of Bhaga. nArAyaNAtmako GYeyaH pANDaveya yuge yuge O Arjuna, know that in every yuga, Rudra is 'nArAyaNAtmaka'. (This phrase can mean: one whose indweller is Narayana, one who is always immersed in Narayana.) tasmin hi pUjyamAne vai devadeve maheshvare sampUjito bhavetpArtha devo nArAyaNaH prabhuH It is the Lord, the prabhu, the Narayana *IN* Maheshvara (the worshipable, the lord of the devas), who is actually worshiped. ahamAtmA hi lokAnAM vishvAnAM pANDunandana tasmAdAtmAnamevAgre rudraM sampUjayAmyaham yadyahaM nArchayeyaM vai IshAnaM varadaM shivam AtmAnaM nArchayetkashchiditi me bhAvitaM manaH O son of Pandu, I am, indeed, the Atma, the indweller of this universe and the worlds. Therefore, I worship myself first, even when I worship Rudra. If I did not worship Rudra, the bestower of boons, in such a way (i.e., worshiping the indwelling Lord first), some would not worship Me, the indwelling Lord, at all - this is my opinion. mayA pramANaM hi kR^itaM lokaH samanuvartate pramAnAni hi pUjyAni tatastaM pUjayAmyaham Whatever I follow and give due worth as a pramaNa, the world follows that. Such pramanas have to be duly followed; therefore I follow them. yastaM vetti sa mAM vetti yo.anu taM sa hi mAm anu rudro nArAyaNashchaiva sattvamekaM dvidhAkR^itam loke charati kaunteya vyakti sthaM sarvakarmasu Whoever knows him, knows Me. Whoever follows him, follows Me. (Though) the world, in all its actions, worships two gods, Rudra and Narayana, it is actually one only who is worshiped. na hi me kenachid deyo varaH pANDavanandana iti sa~ncintya manasA purANaM vishvamIshvaram putrArthaM ArAdhitavAn AtmAnaM aham AtmanA O Son of Pandu, there is, of course, nobody who can grant Me boons. Knowing that well, I worhip Myself, Who am the beginningless and universal power, known as Sarveshvara, for the sake of getting sons. na hi viShNuH pranamati kasmai chidvibudhAya tu R^ita AtmAnameveti tato rudraM bhajAmyaham Indeed Vishnu does not bow to any one and [even when He bows to Himself], for what sake, but for the sake of showing the path to the wise. Therefore, it is the truth that I worship myself even when I worship Rudra. Lord Siva in Vraja, Mathura and Navadvipa (Mayapura) Four ancient murtis of Lord Siva residing at Mathura are known as dik-palas, protectors of directions. They stay in Mathura to protect the dhama. Bhutesvar Mahadev is the protector of western side of Mathura. Pippalesvar Mahadev resides near Vishram ghat on the bank of Yamuna. He guards the eastern side of Mathura. Rangesvar Mahadev is the protector of the southern side, and Gokarnesvar Mahadev is he guardian of the northern side of the city. Vrindavan Gopesvar (Gopisvar) Mahadev is one of the most prominent deities in the Gaudiya-sampradaya and is mentioned in many Gaudiya writings. He is the very ancient protector of Sri Vrindavan Dham. It is said one cannot enter Vrindavan dham without his permission. Nandisvar Mahadev Nanda Maharaja's palace at Nandagaon is resting on top of the hill called Nandisvar Parvat. This hill is the incarnation of Lord Siva. Bankhandi Mahadev Bankhandi Mahadev is situated in the old part of Vrindavan at the junction of Banke Bihari Bazaar Road and Bankhandi Mahadeva Bazaar Road. Ban-khandi means "forest dweller". Mayapura Antardvip The central zone of Navadvip dham is Antardvip, the island where Sri Caitanaya Mahaprabhu appeared. The center of Antardvip is Yoga pitha, the actual place of Mahaprabhu's appearance. Lord Siva resides eternally at this place as the Siva linga known as Ksetrapal Mahadev, and renders his eternal service of protecting the dhama. Ksetrapal Mahadev has been in Mayapur since the time of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Rudradvip Rudradvip is just west of Antardvip. Thakur Bhaktivinod writes in Navadvipa Dhama Mahatmya that as Nila Lohita, Lord Siva, constantly relishes Gaura kirtana in Rudradvip along with his associates, the eleven Rudras. As they are all intoxicated from chanting the different names of Lord Gauranga, they dance in great jubilation. Simantadvip Srila Narahari Cakravarti Thakur has described Simantadvip in his Bhakti Ratnakara as the place where Parvati devi performed austerities and received darshan and blessing of Gauranga Mahaprabhu. She put Mahaprabhu's red foot-dust on her simanta, the parting in her hair. Since then the island has been named as Simantadvip and it became the residence of Lord Siva and Parvati. Godrumadvip Thakur Bhaktivinod describes the island of Godrumadvip and deity of Hari-Hara. The Hari-Hara deity is a combined form of Lord Visnu and Lord Siva. Lord Visnu created this half black (Lord Visnu) and half white (Lord Siva) deity to show how dear and inseparable Lord Siva is to him. Madhyadvip When Lord Siva heard that Suta Gosvami was about to speak on the pastimes of Lord Caitanya here, he could not tolerate missing even one word. His anxiety to reach here in time was so intense that he even abandoned his normal carrier, the bull Nandi, and took up Lord Brahma's much faster hamsa (swan) carrier. The Hamsa Vahan temple houses the deity of Hamsa Vahan Siva but only three days a year. The rest of the year the murti is submerged in the nearby lake to cool him down. These pastimes reveal how Lord Siva is absorded in relishing the nectar of Gaura-prema. srimad gopisvaram vande sankaram karuna mayam sarva klesa haram devam vrindaranya rati pradam "I offer my respectful obeisances to Gopisvara, who is Lord Siva himself. He is very merciful, removes all troubles, and grants spiritual love in Vrindavan." (Bhakti Ratnakara 5.3741)

What is the difference between Krsna and Siva? Learned scholars in transcendental subjects have carefully analyzed the summum bonum Krsna to have sixty-four principal attributes. All the expansions or categories of the Lord possess only some percentages of these attributes. But Sri Krsna is the possessor of the attributes cent percent. And His personal expansions such as svayam-prakasa, tad-ekatma up to the categories of the avataras who are all visnu-tattva, possess up to ninety-three percent of these transcendental attributes. Lord Siva, who is neither avatara nor avesa nor in between them, possesses almost eighty-four percent of the attributes. ksiram yatha dadhi vikara-visesa-yogat sanjayate na tu tatah prthag asti hetoh yah sambhutam api tatha samupaiti karyad govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami "‘Milk changes into yogurt when mixed with a yogurt culture, but actually it is constitutionally nothing but milk. Similarly, Govinda, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, assumes the form of Lord Siva [sambhu] for the special purpose of material transactions. I offer my obeisances at His lotus feet.’ (The real nature of Sambhu, the presiding deity of Mahesa-dhama, is described.) Sambhu is not a second Godhead other than Krsna. Those, who entertain such discriminating sentiment, commit a great offense against the Supreme Lord. The supremacy of Sambhu is subservient to that of Govinda; hence they are not really different from each other. The nondistinction is established by the fact that just as milk treated with acid turns into curd so Godhead becomes a subservient when He Himself attains a distinct personality by the addition of a particular element of adulteration. This personality has no independent initiative. The said adulterating principle is constituted of a combination of the stupefying quality of the deluding energy, the quality of nonplenitude of the marginal potency and a slight degree of the ecstatic-cum- cognitive principle of the plenary spiritual potency. This specifically adulterated reflection of the principle of the subjective portion of the Divinity is Sadasiva, in the form of the effulgent masculine-symbol-god Sambhu from whom Rudradeva is manifested. In the work of mundane creation as the material cause, in the work of preservation by the destruction of sundry asuras and in the work of destruction to conduct the whole operation, Govinda manifests Himself as guna-avatara in the form of Sambhu who is the separated portion of Govinda imbued with the principle of His subjective plenary portion. The personality of the destructive principle in the form of time has been identified with that of Sambhu by scriptural evidences that have been adduced in the commentary. The purport of the Bhagavata slokas, viz., vaisnavanam yatha Sambhuh, etc., is that Sambhu, in pursuance of the will of Govinda, works in union with his consort Durgadevi by his own time energy. He teaches pious duties (dharma) as stepping- stones to the attainment of spiritual service in the various tantra-sastras, etc., suitable for jivas in different grades of the conditional existence. In obedience to the will of Govinda, Sambhu maintains and fosters the religion of pure devotion by preaching the cult of illusionism (Mayavada) and the speculative agama-sastras. The fifty attributes of individual souls are manifest in a far vaster measure in Sambhu and five additional attributes not attainable by jivas are also partly found in him. So Sambhu cannot be called a jiva. He is the lord of jiva but yet partakes of the nature of a separated portion of Govinda. (Brahma samhita 5.45 p.) Can one get the same result by worshiping Siva or Krsna? There is a Mission that regularly propounds that worship of any demigod will lead one to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or the supreme goal. But worship of demigods is thoroughly discouraged herein because even the greatest demigods like Brahma and Siva represent only part of the opulence of the Supreme Lord. He is the origin of everyone born, and no one is greater than Him. He is asamaurdhva, which means that no one is superior to Him and that no one is equal to Him. In the Padma Purana it is said that one who considers the Supreme Lord Krsna in the same category with demigods — be they even Brahma or Siva — becomes at once an atheist. (BG 10.42 p.) There are many foolish persons who say that one can chant Hare Krsna or chant the name of Kali or Durga or Siva because they are all the same. If one thinks that the holy name of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the names and activities of the demigods are on the same level, or if one accepts the holy name of Visnu to be a material sound vibration, that is also an offense. (SB 3.15.25 p.) In what way do devotees of Lord Krishna offer respect to Lord Siva? It is said, vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh: Lord Siva is the best of all devotees. Therefore all devotees of Lord Krsna are also devotees of Lord Siva. In Vrndavana there is Lord Siva's temple called Gopisvara. The gopis used to worship not only Lord Siva but Katyayani, or Durga, as well, but their aim was to attain the favor of Lord Krsna. A devotee of Lord Krsna does not disrespect Lord Siva, but worships Lord Siva as the most exalted devotee of Lord Krsna. Consequently whenever a devotee worships Lord Siva, he prays to Lord Siva to achieve the favor of Krsna, and he does not request material profit. In Bhagavad-gita (7.20) it is said that generally people worship demigods for some material profit. Kamais tais tair hrta jnanah. Driven by material lust, they worship demigods, but a devotee never does so, for he is never driven by material lust. That is the difference between a devotee's respect for Lord Siva and an asura's respect for him. The asura worships Lord Siva, takes some benediction from him, misuses the benediction and ultimately is killed by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who awards him liberation. Because Lord Siva is a great devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he loves all the devotees of the Supreme Lord. Lord Siva told the Pracetas that because they were devotees of the Lord, he loved them very much. Lord Siva was not kind and merciful only to the Pracetas; anyone who is a devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very dear to Lord Siva. Not only are the devotees dear to Lord Siva, but he respects them as much as he respects the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Similarly, devotees of the Supreme Lord also worship Lord Siva as the most dear devotee of Lord Krsna. They do not worship him as a separate Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the list of nama-aparadhas that it is an offense to think that the chanting of the name of Hari and the chanting of Hara, or Siva, are the same. The devotees must always know that Lord Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and that Lord Siva is His devotee. A devotee should be offered respect on the level of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and sometimes even more respect. Indeed, Lord Rama, the Personality of Godhead Himself, sometimes worshiped Lord Siva. If a devotee is worshiped by the Lord, why should a devotee not be worshiped by other devotees on the same level with the Lord? This is the conclusion. From this verse it appears that Lord Siva blesses the asuras simply for the sake of formality. Actually he loves one who is devoted to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (SB 4.24.30 purport) Should devotees of Krishna discourage others from worshiping Lord Siva? Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, in Winnipeg there is one very pious east Indian man who for many years has been worshiping somewhat, worshiping Lord Siva. And his wife is also a very quite chaste woman and sincere follower — and so were her parents — of Lord Siva. And he is reading your Bhagavad-gita. He visits our temple. And I have given him the first volume of Canto Four which discusses Lord Siva a great deal. And he has read in one of your purports that Krsna is more pleased when you worship His devotee than when you worship Him directly. And Lord Siva is a very great devotee of Krsna. So he has now interpreted that to mean that if he worships Lord Siva so nicely, then actually he is pleasing Krsna more. So he is experiencing some difficulty because of this and I'm not quite sure how to instruct him that actually... Prabhupada: Difficulty? Brahmananda: That... Our Godbrother has difficulty in replying to this interpretation that Krsna says, "You can please Me by worshiping My devotee," and Lord Siva is the devotee of Krsna. So therefore this man says, "Then I shall worship Lord Siva. In that way I shall please Krsna." Prabhupada: But if he accepts Lord Siva is devotee of Krsna, then by worshiping Lord Siva he will be benefited. If he thinks Lord Siva is independent, then he will not be benefited. Devotee (3): I've got him to accept that Lord Siva is devotee of Krsna, but there's no practical instruction in his worldly activities coming. Prabhupada: No, vaisnavanam yatha sambhuh: "Amongst the Vaisnavas, Sambhu, Lord Siva, is the greatest Vaisnava." So we worship Lord Siva as Vaisnava. He gives respect to Vaisnavas. So why not Lord Siva? Lord Siva is a big Vaisnava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Siva, they take Lord Siva is independent God. That is offensive. If you know that Lord Siva is also a devotee, you can give more respect to Lord Siva. Krsna will be pleased. Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, he does not chant Hare Krsna, he chants om sivaya namah. Prabhupada: That's all right. Devotee (3): It's all right? Prabhupada: He will gradually become devotee. When God, Lord Siva, will be pleased upon him, he will advise to worship. Devotee (3): He is already trying to tell him to follow in your footsteps surely, so just before I left he said he will try once again to chant sixteen rounds of japa, Hare Krsna. He has tried already. He has a taste for... Prabhupada: If he simply understands that Lord Siva is a Vaisnava and if he worships Lord Siva, then he will get the benefit. (room conversation, Chicago, July 9, 1975) What is the relationship between Lord Siva and ghosts? "Lord Siva, the king of the ghosts, sitting on the back of his bull carrier, travels at this time, accompanied by ghosts who follow him for their welfare." Purport: Lord Siva, or Rudra, is the king of the ghosts. Ghostly characters worship Lord Siva to be gradually guided toward a path of self-realization. Mayavadi philosophers are mostly worshipers of Lord Siva, and Sripada sankaracarya is considered to be the incarnation of Lord Siva for preaching godlessness to the Mayavadi philosophers. Ghosts are bereft of a physical body because of their grievously sinful acts, such as suicide. The last resort of the ghostly characters in human society is to take shelter of suicide, either material or spiritual. Material suicide causes loss of the physical body, and spiritual suicide causes loss of the individual identity. Mayavadi philosophers desire to lose their individuality and merge into the impersonal spiritual brahmajyoti existence. Lord Siva, being very kind to the ghosts, sees that although they are condemned, they get physical bodies. He places them into the wombs of women who indulge in sexual intercourse regardless of the restrictions on time and circumstance. (SB 3.14.24, p.)

Brhad-bhagavatamrta 1.2.79-97 by Srila Sanatana Goswami: 79 Siva is famous as the personal friend of Lord Visnu. In this universe I do not see anyone who is the object of the Lord's mercy as Siva. 80 Always intoxicated by the sweet nectar of Sri Krsna's lotus feet, Siva has lost all interest in material goals, in supreme power and opulence, and in varieties of sense-pleasure. 81 Eating Dhustura seeds and arka leaves, decorated with a garland of skulls, and his naked body smeared with ashes, Siva laughs at materialists like myself, who are addicted to sense-pleasures. 82 Wearing matted locks of disheveled hair, and eager to conceal his actual nature, he staggers about like a madman. On his head he happily carries the Ganges, which has washed the lotus feet of Lord Krsna. When he dances he destroys the universe. 83 Lord Krsna is so kind to him that not only does he have the power to grant the most valuable liberation to demigods like myself, but even his wife has that power. 84 Ah! All the residents of Sivaloka are liberated souls. By Siva's mercy how many of them are not only liberated, but are now pure devotees of Lord Krsna? 85 To consider Siva different from Lord Krsna is a great offense. The Supreme Personality of Godhead may forgive offenses committed to Him, but He does not forgive those committed against Siva. 86 When Tripuresvara, Vrkasura and other demons maddened by benedictions he gave them, placed Siva in a very dangerous position, Lord Krsna at once rescued him with words as sweet as nectar. 87 Conquered by the intimate love of His devotee, Lord Krsna personally worships Siva just to glorify him. 88-9 Lord Krsna personally asked Siva to drink the terrible poison produced from the churning of nectar. In this way Siva became worshiped by the Prajapatis, and showered with streams of great glory. 90 The Puranas sing of the mercy of Lord Krsna to Siva. You know this already. O sage, please remember his glories. 91 Sri Pariksit said: O affectionate mother, Narada offered obeisances to his spiritual master and was about to depart for Kailasa Hill when Brahma glanced at his son and said: 92 Sri Brahma said: Submissive to the loving service of Kuvera, Siva resides in Kuvera's place on Mount Kailasa in the material universe. 93 Assuming the role of the protector of the northern direction, Siva resides there, surrounded by his associates, and keeping very little material wealth. 94 The Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna becomes conquered by the loving service of devotees like myself, and for this reason He resides on my planet, on Svargaloka, and in many other places as well, and enjoys suitable pastimes there. (In the same way Siva resides in Kailasa because of the devotion of Kuvera.) 95 I quote the opinion of Vayu Purana "The planet of Siva is beyond the seven-fold coverings of the material world. It is eternal, transcendental, and full of bliss. Only the greatest servants of Siva may enter it." 96 In that place Siva is decorated with splendid transcendental garments and ornaments. There He is the master of great powers and opulences, and there he is surrounded by many associates as splendid and glorious as he. 97 In that place, even though the two of them are not different, Siva worships the supremely powerful and opulent Lord Sankarsana as his chosen Deity. Is this not very wonderful?

He is worshiped as the Supreme Lord by the Saiva (Saivite) groups and described as such in the tamasic Puranas - Matsya Purana, Kurma Purana, Linga Purana, Siva Purana, Skanda Purana, and Agni Purana. However, he is always depicted in the constant meditation on the Supreme Lord, Visnu. Lord Visnu, at the same time worships him as His foremost devotee: "Conquered by the intimate love of His devotee, Lord Krsna personally worships Siva just to glorify him." (Brhad-bhagavatamrta 1.2.87) He is worshiped by Lord in His Rama-lila. Lord likes to worship His exalted devotees (SB 4.24.30 p.) and Siva in turn worships Him. (SB 9.10.12) sri rama rama rameti rame rame manorame sahasra nama tat tulyam rama nama varanane Lord Siva tells to his consort Devi Parvati: "O Delight of my heart, o beautiful-faced lady! I myself constantly enjoy the supreme bliss chanting the divine Name of my beloved as 'Sri Rama, Sri Rama' which is equal to reciting one thousand Names of Lord Visnu, Sriman Narayana. (Brhad Visnu Sahasra Nama stotra, Padma Purana, Uttara khanda 72.335) svapne jagarane sasvath krsna dhyana ratah sivah yatha krsnas tatha sambhur na bhedo madhavesayoh "Sleeping or awake, Siva is constantly absorbed in meditation on Krsna. As is Krsna, so is Sambhu; there is no difference between Madhava and Isa." (Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Prakriti Khanda 2.56.61) He is the greatest of Vaisnavas (SB 2.10.13, 5.17.22-23, Brahma-samhita 5.9-10). His expansion is Sukadeva Gosvami, the celebrated narrator of the Srimad Bhagavatam: "Suka, the son of Vyasa, who had been influenced by Vayu, was the incarnation of Rudra. He was born for the spread of knowledge in the world." (Garuda Purana 3.18.21) In the Patala-khanda of Padma-Purana it is stated that Suka became the daughter of Upananda in Vrndavana, in order to take part in Krsna's pastimes. Another story says that in his past life he was a parrot of Radharani (therefore he cannot hear and speak her name without falling into ecstasy) and heard SB spoken to Parvati by Siva. When she fell asleep he imitated her voice and asked questions on her behalf so that Siva didn't recognize she does not listen to him. Birth of Sukadeva Gosvami Dinadhyatma das: There are two valid stories which happened in different kalpas. Mahabharata, Santi Parva ch. 323-333, says that Vedavyasa performed austerities and pleased Lord Siva who blessed him that he will have a son who will be equal to all five material elements potency. Vedavyasa was trying to create the sacrifical fire and Ghrtaci the Apsaras came there and Vyasadeva's mind was agitated. She left but Vyasadeva could not control his mind and his semen fell into the fire. When the fire was churned for the sacrifice a child was born who is Sukadeva Gosvami. Skanda Purana, Nagara Khanda ch. 147, says that Vyasadeva married Jabali's daughter Pinjala (Vatika) and Suka was born from her. Suka stayed 12 years in the womb and only after Vyasa brought Krsna from Dwaraka who assured Suka that Maya won't touch him he came out of the womb.

asya devasya mIhuSo vayA viSNoreSasya prabhRthe havirbhiH vide hi rudro rudriyaM mahitvaM yAsiSTaM vartiraZvinAvirAvat source "With offerings I propitiate the branches of this swift-moving God, the bounteous Visnu. Hence Rudra gained his Rudra-strength: O Asvins, ye sought the house that hath celestial viands." (Rig Veda 7.40.5) source "There are three things that are inconceivable: the position of Lord Siva, hladini sakti, and, yes, guru-tattva." (BR Sridhara Swami) Siva ("Auspicious One"), is one of the members of the trimurti (Brahma, Visnu and Siva). He is in charge of the material mode of ignorance (tamo-guna) connected with the destruction of the universe. "The personality of the destructive principle in the form of time has been identified with that of Sambhu by scriptural evidences that have been adduced in the commentary." (Brahma-samhita 5.45p.) His position is between the living beings (jiva-tattva) and the Supreme Lord, Visnu (visnu-tattva), in the category of his own, siva-tattva. Siva is usually depicted in painting and sculpture as white or ash-colored, with a blue neck (from holding in his throat the poison thrown up at the churning of the cosmic ocean, which threatened to destroy humankind), his hair arranged in a coil of matted locks (jatamakuta) and adorned with the crescent moon and the Ganges (he allowed her to trickle through his hair). He has three eyes, the third eye bestowing inward vision but capable of burning destruction when focused outward. He wears a garland of skulls and a serpent around his neck and carries in his two (sometimes four) hands a deerskin, a trident, a small hand drum, or a club with a skull at the end. Siva is represented in a variety of forms: in a pacific mood with his consort Parvati and son Skanda, as the cosmic dancer (Nataraja), as a naked ascetic, as a mendicant beggar, as a yogi, and as the androgynous union of Siva and his consort in one body, half-male and half-female (Ardhanarisvara). Among his common epithets are Sambhu ("Benignant"), Sankara ("Beneficent"), Pasupati ("Lord of Beasts"), Mahesa ("Great Lord"), Mahadeva ("Great God"), Rudra ("Crying"), Asutosa ("Easily pacified"), Bhutanatha ("Lord of Ghosts"), Tripurari ("Victor over the three demoniac cities") etc. Brahma, the original creature in the universe, is the father of Rudra who appeared from his forehead when Brahma became angry at his sons, four Kumaras. (Srimad-Bhagavatam - SB - 3.12.4-10). Rudra was given the following places for his residence: the heart, the senses, the air of life, the sky, the air, the fire, the water, the earth, the sun, the moon and austerity. (SB 3.12.11) He has eleven other names: Manyu, Manu, Mahinasa, Mahan, Siva, Rtadhvaja, Ugrareta, Bhava, Kala, Vamadeva and Dhrtavrata. (SB 3.12.12) Laghu-bhagavatamrta 2.26: "Siva appears in eleven forms and eight forms. Generally he has ten arms and five heads, with three eyes on each head." (e.g. Pasupatinath in Kathmandu) Eleven wives of Rudra, Rudranis, are called Dhi, Dhrti, Rasala, Uma, Niyut, Sarpi, Ila, Ambika, Iravati, Svadha and Diksa. (SB 3.12.13) Panca-vaktra Siva (five forms of Siva with five faces) are Sadyojata, Vamadeva, Aghora, Tatpurusa, and Isana. (SB 8.7.29, Garuda Purana 1.21) Lord Siva as the cosmic dancer Nataraja ("lord of dance") is one of the most famous deity forms, which include the magnificent Cola bronzes of the 10th-11th century. Siva is shown with four arms and flying locks dancing on the figure of a dwarf, the Apasmarapurusa (purusa meaning "man," and apasmara "forgetfulness," or "heedlessness"). The back right hand of Siva holds the damaru (hourglass-shaped drum); the front right hand is in the abhaya-mudra (the "fear-not" gesture, made by holding the palm outward with fingers pointing up); the back left hand carries agni (fire) in a vessel or in the palm of the hand; and the front left hand is held across the chest in the gajahasta (elephant-trunk) pose, with wrist limp and fingers pointed downward toward the uplifted left foot. The locks of Siva's hair stand out in several strands and are interspersed with the figures of Ganga (the River Ganges), flowers, a skull, and the crescent moon. His figure is encircled by a ring of flames (prabhamandala). This form of dance, which is the most common representation of Nataraja, is called in the classic Sanskrit treatises on dance the bhujangatrasa ("trembling of the snake"). The gestures of the dance represent Siva's five activities (pancakrtya): creation (symbolized by the drum), protection (by the abhaya-mudra), destruction (by the fire), embodiment (by the foot planted on the ground), and release (by the foot held aloft). Other dances of Siva seen in sculpture and painting are the wild tandava, which he performs on cremation grounds in the company of his consort Devi, and the evening dance performed on Mount Kailasa before the assembly of gods, some of whom accompany him on various instruments. In the Brahma-samhita he is said to be another form of Maha-Visnu, and is compared to a yogurt. Yogurt is nothing but milk, yet it is not milk. As yogurt is prepared when milk is mixed with a culture, the form of Lord Siva expands when the Supreme Personality of Godhead is in touch with material nature. His paraphernalia symbolizes: moon - time measurement in months, three eyes - tri-kala-jna, snake around the neck - time measurement in years, necklace of skulls with snakes - changing of ages and begetting and annihilating of mankind. One of his features is time (Bhagavad-gita 11.32: "Time I am", SB 3.5.26-27, Brahma-samhita 5.10), the separating factor between the material and spiritual world (SB 3.10.12) and a medium to perceive the Lord's influence (SB 3.26.16). He is worshiped as one of the five deities in the pancopasana system established by Adi Sankaracarya, together with Surya, Ganesa, Durga, and Visnu. Its goals are dharma, artha, kama and an impersonal moksa. The final goal is Brahman. Visnu is considered an "impersonal Supersoul" (SB 2.3.24 p.) because the whole system is impersonal. See SB 6.4.34, p.

There are eleven expansions of Rudra, or Lord Siva. They are as follows: Ajaikapat, Ahibradhna, Virupaksa, Raivata, Hara, Bahurupa, Devasrestha Tryambaka, Savitra, Jayanta, Pinaki and Aparajita. Besides these expansions there are eight forms of Rudra called earth, water, fire, air, sky, the sun, the moon and soma-yaji. Generally all these Rudras have five faces, three eyes and ten arms. Sometimes it is found that Rudra is compared to Brahma and considered a living entity. But when Rudra is explained to be a partial expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is compared to Sesa. Lord Siva is therefore simultaneously an expansion of Lord Visnu and, in his capacity for annihilating the creation, one of the living entities. As an expansion of Lord Visnu he is called Hara, and he is transcendental to the material qualities, but when he is in touch with tamo-guna he appears contaminated by the material modes of nature. This is explained in Srimad- Bhagavatam and the Brahma-samhita. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, Tenth Canto, it is stated that Lord Rudra is always associated with the material nature when she is in the neutral, unmanifested stage, but when the modes of material nature are agitated he associates with material nature from a distance. In the Brahma-samhita the relationship between Visnu and Lord Siva is compared to that between milk and yogurt. Milk is converted into yogurt by certain additives, but although milk and yogurt have the same ingredients, they have different functions. Similarly, Lord Siva is an expansion of Lord Visnu, yet because of his taking part in the annihilation of the cosmic manifestation, he is considered to be changed, like milk converted into yogurt. In the Puranas it is found that Siva appears sometimes from the heads of Brahma and sometimes from the head of Visnu. The annihilator, Rudra, is born from Sankarsana and the ultimate fire to burn the whole creation. In the Vayu Purana there is a description of Sadasiva in one of the Vaikuntha planets. That Sadasiva is a direct expansion of Lord Krsna’s form for pastimes. It is said that Sadasiva (Lord Sambhu) is an expansion from the Sadasiva in the Vaikuntha planets (Lord Visnu) and that his consort, Mahamaya, is an expansion of Rama-devi, or Laksmi. Mahamaya is the origin or birthplace of material nature. (CC Adi 6.79, p.) Is Lord Siva worshiped through the taking of intoxicants? We should always consider the position of the isvaras, or those who can actually control the movements of the sun and moon, as superior. Without such power, one cannot imitate the isvaras, who are superpowerful. Lord Siva drank poison to the extent of swallowing an ocean, but if any common man tries to drink even a fragment of such poison, he will be killed. There are many pseudo devotees of Lord Siva who want to indulge in smoking ganja (marijuana) and similar intoxicating drugs, forgetting that by so imitating the acts of Lord Siva they are calling death very near. Similarly, there are some pseudo devotees of Lord Krsna who prefer to imitate the Lord in His rasa-lila, or dance of love, forgetting their inability to lift Govardhana Hill. It is best, therefore, that one not try to imitate the powerful, but simply follow their instructions; nor should one try to occupy their posts without qualification. There are so many "incarnations" of God without the power of the Supreme Godhead. (BG 3.24 p.)

Actually, this dog has a nitya-siddha spiritual body in Goloka that he just abandoned because he realized it was more fun to be in the material world.

"Every living entity in the material world fell from Goloka because they got fed up with serving Krishna"! Hari Sauri das

I wonder if the Hindus up there would have nominated him acharya if he didn't have the P.hD? If he would have been a hiippie instead of a P.hD, would they still have elected him acharya? I guess in today's world you need a P.HD to be guru?

Well, that is another myth. Technically, there is NO possibility of them falling down. Here is a rough example. If you live on a planet where marijuana doesn't grow, then there is NO chance that somebody is going to come up and try to sell you a bag of weed. So, Maya, has absolutely NO play, access or entry into the spiritual world. Maya is only accessible from the Viraja. So, there is NO possibility of the nitya-siddhas to fall down because Maya cannot exert any influence in the spiritual world on the spiritual planets. The concept we have of free will is mundane. The free will of the parshadas does not include the possibility of giving up Krishna at any time. That again is another ISKCON myth that the guru taught to help the conditioned livings entities feel that they aren't going to prison in Vaikuntha but are going to absolute freedom. There is NO chance of falling into maya in a world where maya does not exist. You can't take LSD if you live on a planet where LSD does not exist. In the spiritual world all the devotees of the Lord have absolute protection. There is NOT A CHANCE that they can fall down into maya. That is the strength of the protection that Krishna gives to his devotees. Srila Sridhar Maharaja even spoke of the concept of divine slavery. So, be careful about surrendering to Krishna because once he gets you on his planet there is NO going back to maya. Eternal Divine Slavery!!!!!!! Are you sure that is what you want? Srila Prabhupada led us to believe that we can still change our mind once we get to Goloka, but that again is another of his fables. It's a one way ticket to Paradise. Don't believe Prabhupada. He is a trickster sent here by Krishna to secure some divine slaves by hook or by crook!!

I don't have the reference at hand and it is time for me to hit the sack, but I do remember reading something to the effect that a sadhana-siddha is also nitya-siddha and upon the attainment of siddha the distinction between the two disappears. In Goloka there is no division of sadhana-siddha and nitya-siddha. That form of discrimination does not exist there. Upon becoming siddha one becomes an eternal associate of Krishna and there is no discrimination that one of sadhana-siddha or nitya-siddha. The distinction ceases to exist in eternality.