Sonic Yogi

Hence, tatastha-shakti.

Well, Krishna has free will to the unlimited degree. Does that mean he can fall down from being the Supreme Being? Why does free will necessitate the ability to fall down? Does not Radharani have free will? Or is she a slave? Can Radha fall down? Free will does not necessitate the imperfection of fallibility. In fact, free will and infallibility are both qualities of the nitya-siddhas. Such is the version of Lord Krishna. Krishna says his pure devotees are infallible. Why do so many devotees insist that the souls are fallible because they have free will? We have free will here but we don't have the free will to create our own planets or fly through outer space. Free will always has it's parameters. In Goloka, the parameter of free will does not include the capacity to be overcome by ignorance and fall down from love of Krishna. Free will in Goloka is not the same kind of false free will that living entities in illusion think they have.

That is the crucial point. To say that the parshadas of Krishna are "tatastha" or marginal jivas is the basis of the dreamervadi/Fallvadi theory and I certainly feel that unless that tatastha in Goloka concept can be defeated the dreamervadis win the debate. I am even willing to concede that they are sometimes referred to as marginal in the sense that they came up from the ranks of the conditioned souls, but once they enter into the internal lila of Krishna I don't see any way that they can be considered as marginal or tatastha-shakti. They are spoken of as marginal because they came from that position. But, when they are invested with the Cit-shakti and hladini-shakti as Srila Prabhupada referred to above, they are nothing similar to a baddha-jiva of the marginal type. Anyway, these are my thoughts and I wish I had more time to study and write. I am still researching and trying to get at the bottom of the matter. (If at all that can be done) Unlike Shiva, I am not quite yet a finished professor who knows all and sees all thanks to some good LSD. He also thinks Michael Jackson is an incarnation of Krishna. So, his conclusions are suspect as far as I am concerned.

Read it again prabhu, I didn't see anything about the jivas mentioned as being "marginal" jivas. That is what we are trying to establish here is the difference between a marginal jiva and an internal jiva. When a jiva is perfect even though he has free will he can never fall down. Otherwise, there is no meaning to "siddha". NO, he cannot fall down. He is perfect. The potential to fall down would render him imperfect and therefore NOT siddha.

Here is a nice shastric reference to contemplate. So, the ONE spiritual energy of the Lord is manifested in PHASES. Who is to say that a portion of that energy cannot be transformed and manifested in another phase? Anything is possible. Krishna can manipulate his energies anyway he likes.

Yet, even Srivasa Pandit of the pancha-tattva is described as representing the tatastha-shakti. My thinking about that is it is because he is Narada Muni who does have some dealing with the material energy and goes back and forth between the material world and Vaikuntha. As long as the jiva has some dealings with the material world he is classified as tatastha-shakti, even though we know that Narada Muni is invincible and beyond any of the charms of Maya. So, going back and forth = tatastha-shakti.

CC Adi, 4.65 purport: All the devotees there are transformations of sandhini-shakti element of the svarupa-shakti. They aren't tatastha jivas. They have been transformed by sandhini-shakti.

There is nothing wrong with literalism. The problem is in misunderstanding the words due to a partial study of the subject. If we depart literalism we then begin the process of speculation, addition and subtraction and end up with nothing.

I don't argue that "tatastha" is not a condition of the living entity, yet at the same time a "place". Tatastha as a condition of the living entity is due to the "place" where the jiva was manifested - the Causal Ocean also known as the Viraja River. It is in this "marginal" realm of the Viraja that Maha-Vishnu lies down and manifests the jivas through his agent Lord Shambhu. So, my thinking is that the jivas are called "marginal" jivas because they were manifest in the Viraja where they were in the marginal realm between the material and spiritual worlds. It is from there that they either become attracted to the light of the Brahmajyoti on one side of the glitters of Maya on the other. But, as Bhaktivinode explains in Jaiva Dharma, these jivas are very weak due to a lack of hladini-shakti which is also known as love of Krishna. When these incomplete jivas become blessed with hladini-shakti they are then integreated into the internal energy of Krishna and lose their marginal status and in fact become internal devotees. I just don't buy the claim that the gopas and gopis are "marginal" entities that are "in between the material and spiritual world" as described by Mahaprabhu to Sanatan Goswami. They are not in between anything. They are in the svarupa-shakti via the hladini-shakti, bhakti-shakti etc. They are also immune to maya and not succetible to the material energy as all the tatastha-jivas are described. The whole "tatastha in Goloka" argument is what supports the Fallvadis. As long as the jiva is tatastha he can fall down. Why is it that the "jivas" in Goloka are said to never fall down? The tatastha in Goloka argument is the basis of the dreamer-vadi and Fallvadi theory. So, I don't buy it.

This is the last paragraph of Bhagavad-gita As It Is. So, the normal condition for the living entity is in the hladini-shakti. How can a jiva be in the hladini-shakti and still be "marginal" energy?

Madhya 20. 108-09 So, how is it that the parshadas of Krishna and Radha in Goloka "have a relationship with both the material and spiritual world"? They have NO relationship with the material world. This purport says that the marginal jiva is between the material and spiritual worlds. How is it that the parshadas of Radha-Krishna are "between the material and spiritual world"? The criteria mentioned in this purport for being "marginal" energy are: (a) Being situated between the material and spiritual worlds. (b) Having a relationship with both the material and spiritual worlds. The parshadas of Krishna qualify for neither of these two criteria. Garuda does, as he actually lives in the material world and becomes the carrier of Vishnu when he comes to the material world. Garuda is marginal because he meets both the criteria given by Lord Caitanya in the above verse. These criteria do not fit the parshadas of Krishna.

I agree. The "acharya" guru profile is way out of his league. There are so many senior Vaishnavas on the planet that there is no need for a junior Vaishnava like Frank to be profiling as some acharya.

Unlike yourself, who is s fencewalker trying to be Mr. Wonderful to all people, I am not out to win a popularity contest. I say what I believe and then good people like yourself like to attach labels to me like "fundamentalist" etc. Well, if you want to start that, I would have to say that Srila Prabhupada was a fundamentalist. I think all the acharyas were "fundmentalists" and not very concerned with being popular with all people at all times.

Garuda is not a prema-bhakta. The example you give does not include the gopis or residents of Vrindavan. Garuda and the others referred to are muktas not prema bhaktas. Garuda also eats snakes. Do you think Garuda is eating snakes in Vaikuntha? Garuda comes back and forth from Vaikuntha. Please show the example you claim to have that the residents of Vrindavan are marginal entities.

But, Sridhar Maharaja said he only had one successor who could be guru.

Exactly, his doctrine was shakti-parinamavada - the transformation of energy. The material world is created by a transformation of brahman. The jiva can be transformed by the ingress of hladini-shakti which is love of Krishna.

This statement by the Thakur clearly rejects the "absolute" anadi-karma of the jiva and explains that because karma started in the Viraja it is materially "beginningless", but is so old that it cannot be traced. karma is not absolutely "anadi". It is anadi in that in many cases it precedes the universal creation. But, to say that the jiva has been in the material world for billions or trillions of creations is not what "anadi" means.

The tatastha is a marginal plane where the jivas who are in between maya and Vaikuntha become manifested by the glance of Maha-Vishnu. That place is known as the Causal Ocean or Viraja River and that is where all the conditioned jivas fell for maya even though the spirit world was on the other side.

No, it is more than that. The devotees of Krishna have hladini-shakti added to the jiva-shakti. There is more than just a change of thinking but the ingress of a higher power than the jiva itself. The jiva gets imbued with hladini-shakti and is not just a generic jiva anymore. The jiva becomes a medium for hladini shakti. The jiva shakti becomes secondary to the hladini shakti that is flowing through the jiva. That is not a marginal position. That is securely within the internal potency. There is nothing marginal in all of Goloka. It is all internal energy.

Read this again and think about it. A position is a place. It is not an eternal quality of the jiva.

Siva is another form of Krishna. He is Vishnu tattva in touch with Prakriti.

That's the way I understand it. If somebody says Krishna cannot beget more souls, unlimited souls according to his sweet wish, then they are certainly minimizing Krishna. "having one been" "the soul never ceases to be"

Tatastha is a "position". Professor Kapoor refers to it as a "position" as well. It is not a characteristic of the soul, but a "position".

The spiritual world is made of samvit, sandhini and hladini potencies. There is no marginal energy in any of the spiritual planets.