Sonic Yogi

Krishna Book ch. 28 So, first taking birth in Krishna-lila on a planet in some material universe, then going back to Krishnaloka from there. There is no straight shot to Goloka from the mundane plane. You have to take birth in Vrindavan and then after Krishna's pastimes are concluded the destination is Goloka.

In fact we have to take birth in Krishna lila. We don't just pop-up in Goloka like we have been there eternally. Entering eternity involves a sequence of events. Before attaining Goloka, the devotee takes birth in a material universe where the pastimes of Krishna are being manifested. Then, the relationship and service to Krishna is developed through a natural sequence as if one is taking birth into Krishna-lila. We don't already have a body in Goloka that we can go home to after leaving this body. First we must take birth in the lila as it is being manifested here in the material world. The entry into eternal life starts by taking birth in Krishna-lila. Madhya 20.397 purport This is how we attain our spiritual body if in fact we are going to enter Krishna lila. It's not magic or voodoo. We take birth in Gokula Vrindavan.

CC madhya 8.139.purport

Here again we read at least twice that the devotee ATTAINS a spiritual body. The last one says "attains his original spiritual body". What does "original" mean? It means the first one. Like "the first car I originally owned was a 65 Chevy Impala SS."

BG intro.- AFTER quitting this material body the devotee ATTAINS a spiritual body. AFTER quitting the material body!

BG intro.- Again the devotee ATTAINS a spiritual body at the time of death if he remembers Krishna.

Here again, we understand that the spiritual body is ATTAINED. If the soul already had a spiritual body he would not need to ATTAIN a spiritual body.

SB 4.29.82 It says the jiva ATTAINS a spiritual body. If he already had one he wouldn't need to ATTAIN a spiritual body. If he already had one there is no meaning to "he also ATTAINS.

But, if Bhagavan was a really generous God he could create a place where souls who were envious of him could be imitation Gods enjoying forever. But, no he created a miserable material world for all the rebellious souls who won't be good little slaves of his. (devil's advocate) Or is it that jivas are just so tiny and limited that they have to start as a one-celled organism and evolve through millions of forms of life before Bhagavan gives the jiva a body with higher consciousness?

Well, there is brahma-karma - spiritual activities as well. What kind of karma is the point. Not all karma is material. The jiva has eternally been engaged in some kind of karma either material or spiritual I don't have a problem with the idea that the karma of every conditioned jiva is eternal, but I don't think the statements in the shastra are really specific enough to say that the everyone's karma is eternal. The term "karma" has more than one use. I also don't have a problem with the idea that jivas are eternally becoming disintegrated with brahman and becoming conditioned souls. We do know from shastra that any living entity in the brahmajyoti can fall down due to lack of sufficient devotional service. Shastra also says that some jivas get liberated into the brahmajyoti and fall down again. So, the shastric statement as far as I can see doesn't specifically say that the karma of every individual soul is eternal. Besides, that, karma is burned-up as the reactions take effect. So, once one has suffered the reaction to some karma then that karma is expired though some new karma can be generated. So, the statement "karma is anadi" does not convince me that it means that every living entity involved in karma has always been so for absolute eternity. Jaya and Vijaya fell down from the plane of no karma to get involved in karma. So, their karma had a beginning when they stopped the four Kumaras from entering the Vaikuntha gate.

According to the Srimad Bhagavatam consciousness was pure in the beginning. Then contamination started to set it. So, from the state of pure consciousness, karma started to happen. It is called beginningless because nobody can trace out the specific time in which the jiva started his karma.

Look and see if this sutra is saying that the karma of every individual jiva is eternal.

could you please quote the reference? I think it means that karma is an eternal principle. God is eternal, the material worlds are an eternal happening and the principle of karma is an eternal fact. Not that the karma of every living entity is eternal. Karma is as eternal as the living entities are. But, the karma of every individual jiva has some beginning, though it cannot be traced out.

Well, when Bhaktivinoda said "no thought is a bad thought" I don't think he was meaning any thought in the world is not a bad thought. If I thought about killing my spiritual master, then that would surely be a bad thought. What Bhaktivinode is talking about is the Bhagavatam and it's seemingly ancient and outdated concepts. He says: So, Bhaktivinode was defending the thought of the Bhagavat, not any thought than any person can come up with. There again he was trying to cause people to approach the Bhagavat with an open mind. There again statements always have a context and the broader context of the statement must be considered in order to get the meaning of the statement.

Exactly, but ISKCON devotees have manufactured some theory that you can only fall once and then you learn your lesson and never fall down again. There again, one of the modern ISKCON myths that have been screwed out of some things Srila Prabhupada spoke. Jesus spoke in parables. Prabhupada spoke in metaphor many times. The metaphorical approach can be helpful, but I don't think western people are as simple and gullible as they might have appeared to be to Srila Prabhupada. Maybe Hindus are simple and gullible, but westerners are very shrewd. The movement has clearly caught up with some ISKCON myths that are now showing to be quite the burden as Gaudiya Vaishnavism has mushroomed largely outside of ISKCON since the passing of Srila Prabhupada. Many things, like the situation of the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada have caught up as well with ISKCON and is dogging ISKCON quite embarrassingly. The metaphorical stories and myths have about run their course and run out of their usefulness. The bad talk about the Godbrothers has surely become an embarrassment to ISKCON as the movement is passing them by even though they control the properties of Srila Prabhupada. If they didn't control the ISKCON assets, they wouldn't have much of anything going for them. They are being gurus with borrowed plumes that are the properties of Srila Prabhupada. The fall theory is ISKCON exclusive. But, the KC movement is alive and well outside of ISKCON and exposing ISKCON as being somewhat of a laughing stock when it comes to certain aspects of the Gaudiya siddhanta.

To me it simply means that the jiva having once been manifested in the material world will be bound here indefinitely unless and until he gets liberation. There is no time line. So, eternal unless and until he get's liberated. If a man is sentenced to life in prison, then he will be there for life. That is unless he gets a pardon from the Governor. If he becomes a model citizen then he can get out.

See, the "fall-down" theory is about a mean and vengeful God who sends all the bad souls to Hell for millions of years. Actually, Lord Krishna is not mean or vengeful or jealous God. The material world is his wonderful greenhouse where he takes seeds of souls and grows them into loving servants to assist him in his unlimited blissful enjoyment. Of course, not every living entity cooperates in this project and they rebel once they get here, but in the end all the souls are forced to advance by the stringent laws of Mother Nature. The fire-and-brimstone "fall down" theory might have been seen as a good approach in the western Judeo-Christian world. But, not all the Vedic authorities present the creation in such light. I personally rejected the "fall-down" theory a long time ago.

Well said. Krishna is always expanding his enjoyment and helping living entities rise up and out of the brahmajyoti to become personal servants. In the short run it appears quite painful for the jiva, but in the end his position is greatly improved and his bliss increased a millionfold. Taking sparks from the brahmajyoti and evolving them into loving relationships and elevating the jiva to higher levels is the work and the play of the Lord. It has nothing to do with resentment. I never suggested any such thing. Theist is trying to put words in my mouth for his own reasons that aren't very noble.

The Lord expands himself into all the living entities. There is no falling down going on. Quite simply all the jivas are expanded from Lord Vishnu. I like the way Maitreya Muni describes it to Vidura. None of the fire-and-brimstone falling down business like we hear so much in modern times.

Ok friends, it's time for me to drop a bomb of siddhanta on this topic and reveal a little known fact of spiritual knowledge. This is of course not going to be accepted by those who prefer to put their head in the sand and pretend that Srila Prabhupada never actually put this in his books, but HE DID. We did not FALL DOWN!! We never fell down from anywhere, not even the brahmajyoti. We came to the material world by THE WILL OF KRISHNA. It was never our decision to make. Krishna put us here out of his own sweet will. The jiva souls don't fall down. They are sent to the material world by the will of God. For those who aren't to blind too read, here is how Srila Prabhupada explains it in the Srimad Bhagavatam. Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1 purport: So, the living entity has no power to enter prakriti or maya of his own power. The conditioned jiva is sent to the material world by the will of Krishna because the living entity was not willing to serve the Lord in his position in the brahmajyoti. He just wanted to be neutral in shanta-rasa. A tiny jiva with no spiritual knowledge does not fall down. He is sent to the material world by the will of the Lord. His forgetfulness is also because of Krishna: If we forgot Krishna, it was because such forgetfulness came from Krishna. If we forgot the brahmajyoti, it was because such forgetfulness came from Krishna. Jivas don't "fall down" to the material world. They are sent here from the brahmajyoti by the sweet will of Krishna. No jiva has the power to break away from Krishna and try to become an imitation Lord. Krishna is in complete control. Nobody has any power to breach the control of Krishna. His absolute control is invincible. If the jiva forgets any position of any origin, it is because Krishna is the cause of such forgetfulness for his own purposes.

before we were conditioned nitya-baddha we were liberated spirit sparks of the brahmajyoti. then, we blooped from the brahmajyoti and became nitya-baddha jivas. In the simplest of terms, that is what happened. The liberated associates of the Lord are immune from falldown. Illusion or selfish desire has no play in the personal association of Krishna.

In plain English, Nitya-Baddha means "stuck on stupid". It we just look around it is easy to see that there are many living entities "stuck on stupid". So, nitya-baddha means that so far up to the present day the living entity has been a conditioned soul since he first emanated from the glance of Maha-Vishnu over prakriti. Destiny can only be changed by the sweet will of Krishna. If a living entity turns to the service of Krishna, then Krishna has the option to change his destiny as a conditioned soul and accept him into the ranks of the liberated soul. So, since the beginning, the baddha-jiva has been conditioned. At one time the spirit spark was integrated into the absolute whole. Somehow he became disintegrated and since becoming a separated part-and-parcel he has been a conditioned soul.. SB 1.9.44 purport

The jiva in maya is simply dreaming!!!

We already quoted the acharya and shastra to show that there is time in the spiritual world. How many times do we have to prove what has already been proven? In case you are new to forums, threads take all kinds of twists and turns and I haven't found one yet that stays strictly on topic. It's like driving on the highway. You don't always follow the speed limit, you just go with the flow.

So, Prabhupada only dreamed there was planet that needed Krishna consciousness and he only dreamed that he spread the Sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu all over the world? If the world is just a dream, then why do so many incarnations come here to deliver living entities? The material world is real. The dream is that we are the enjoyers and the lords of the material world. Pradhana is real. Prakriti is real. Maya is real. The dream is our false ego. The false ego is the dream. The material energy is eternal.(as Pradhan) It is not anyone's dream. The dream of God is real. It is not false. If Vishnu dreams the material world it is still real, because the dream of Vishnu is reality.