Bhaktavasya

My point exactly. Hamsadutta is one to talk.

My point exactly. Hamsadutta is one to talk.

The letter may have been written before his heart-attack, if so then I've jumped the gun with my comments. There is nothing like having an experience of near-death to bring about a change of heart.

The letter may have been written before his heart-attack, if so then I've jumped the gun with my comments. There is nothing like having an experience of near-death to bring about a change of heart.

Speaking of a group or society of friendship and love where Radha and Krishna are at the centre, yesterday here in Victoria, B.C. a group of Narayana Maharaj disciples held a picnic feast at the park, word spread amongst the various devotees and the spontaneous turn-out included SP disciple Gopijanavallaba and his wife Chandravali and their children, NM disciples Venu Gopal and Karuna Mayi, a few other SP disciples, Bhakta Wayne who has been associated with the HK movement for decades, some other familiar faces who have been favorable to the movement for years and the ususal 'fresh faces' of young and some older people who gathered to hear the chanting and take prasadam. Gopijanavallaba gave a delightful explanation of the Hare Krishna mantra, emphasizing that we are worshippers of Radha, the divine feminine counter-part, as well as Krishna. Venu Gopal spoke sweetly of the 6 ways of exchanging love between devotees (offering gifts, inquiring and revealing one's mind in confidence, etc)at the urging of Parat Para (SP disciple)and everyone sang in kirtan for about half an hour while the food was offered at a 'portable' altar set up underneath a shady tree. Even though it began to rain lightly, the group huddled closer together under the tree, chanted for another half hour then feasted on the prasadam prepared by Venu Gopal and Karuna Mayi, which consisted of potatoe-green bean subji, dahl, tumeric rice, stawberry halavah and strawberry nectar. Another melodious kirtan picked up as people finished their prasadam and exchanged light conversation. Wonderful. If the NM 'group' had not come together to continue the tradition of public kirtan and feasting then it would have been a missed opportunity for various devotees and fresh faces to come together to chant and give others a nice taste of KC. We SP disciples living here all have SP's books in our homes, every now and then we come together in each other's homes for kirtan and prasadam and we usually talk about KC philosophy with non-HK acquaintances but the public kirtan and feasts are non-existant. So Hamsadutta is partially correct when he says that everyone doesn't HAVE to join a group or live in an ashram, but he is off-base when he demeans any-one who wants to practise sadhana bhakti under the guidance of a guru or in any of the iskcon ashrams. Bhakti Marg Swami from Canada is an excellent example of someone who is still connected to the Iskcon establishment and is helping other souls to understand KC by accepting disciples and guiding them on a personal basis. Just telling someone about Krishna at a party and saying they should read SP's books is not the same as personal instruction on a regular basis from someone who has read and studied all of SP's teachings is able to explain them to neophytes. I know of some women who are friends of SP disciples and who are reading the books but who after many years thought Hanuman was the consort of Mother Sita until they asked if it was true. This was amazing to me because they have sat through and chanted along during dozens of Sita-Rama kirtans, 'heard' the stories of the Ramayana on various 'story-telling' occasions and somehow got confused (probably with Hamuman bringing Sita the ring)in their minds about who Sita's relationship with Hanuman. No fault on the part of the SP disciples who thought that 'simply by hearing the holy names of Sita and Rama (with a Jaya, Jaya Laxmana, Jaya Hanuman sung along with during the refrain)', seeing a play and hearing the gist of the story is sufficient for one to 'enter into' the deeper understanding and appreciation for the transcentally tragic love saga of Sita and Rama. Admittedly, you don't need to go to an Iskcon temple or become a NM disciple to ge the 'inner meaning' of that lila; everyone with access can read Valmiki's version from the library. It's a matter of the heart, so someone has a deep interest and attraction to that particular lila then Supersoul will direct him or her to a teacher who will explain the finer points of sentiment as well as the 'next glorious chapter' of the seemingly ill-fated lovers' story; Radha-Krishna lila. "People of the World Need to come together People of the world (need to) Start a Brand New Day" stop the insanity stop the fighting let love live

Speaking of a group or society of friendship and love where Radha and Krishna are at the centre, yesterday here in Victoria, B.C. a group of Narayana Maharaj disciples held a picnic feast at the park, word spread amongst the various devotees and the spontaneous turn-out included SP disciple Gopijanavallaba and his wife Chandravali and their children, NM disciples Venu Gopal and Karuna Mayi, a few other SP disciples, Bhakta Wayne who has been associated with the HK movement for decades, some other familiar faces who have been favorable to the movement for years and the ususal 'fresh faces' of young and some older people who gathered to hear the chanting and take prasadam. Gopijanavallaba gave a delightful explanation of the Hare Krishna mantra, emphasizing that we are worshippers of Radha, the divine feminine counter-part, as well as Krishna. Venu Gopal spoke sweetly of the 6 ways of exchanging love between devotees (offering gifts, inquiring and revealing one's mind in confidence, etc)at the urging of Parat Para (SP disciple)and everyone sang in kirtan for about half an hour while the food was offered at a 'portable' altar set up underneath a shady tree. Even though it began to rain lightly, the group huddled closer together under the tree, chanted for another half hour then feasted on the prasadam prepared by Venu Gopal and Karuna Mayi, which consisted of potatoe-green bean subji, dahl, tumeric rice, stawberry halavah and strawberry nectar. Another melodious kirtan picked up as people finished their prasadam and exchanged light conversation. Wonderful. If the NM 'group' had not come together to continue the tradition of public kirtan and feasting then it would have been a missed opportunity for various devotees and fresh faces to come together to chant and give others a nice taste of KC. We SP disciples living here all have SP's books in our homes, every now and then we come together in each other's homes for kirtan and prasadam and we usually talk about KC philosophy with non-HK acquaintances but the public kirtan and feasts are non-existant. So Hamsadutta is partially correct when he says that everyone doesn't HAVE to join a group or live in an ashram, but he is off-base when he demeans any-one who wants to practise sadhana bhakti under the guidance of a guru or in any of the iskcon ashrams. Bhakti Marg Swami from Canada is an excellent example of someone who is still connected to the Iskcon establishment and is helping other souls to understand KC by accepting disciples and guiding them on a personal basis. Just telling someone about Krishna at a party and saying they should read SP's books is not the same as personal instruction on a regular basis from someone who has read and studied all of SP's teachings is able to explain them to neophytes. I know of some women who are friends of SP disciples and who are reading the books but who after many years thought Hanuman was the consort of Mother Sita until they asked if it was true. This was amazing to me because they have sat through and chanted along during dozens of Sita-Rama kirtans, 'heard' the stories of the Ramayana on various 'story-telling' occasions and somehow got confused (probably with Hamuman bringing Sita the ring)in their minds about who Sita's relationship with Hanuman. No fault on the part of the SP disciples who thought that 'simply by hearing the holy names of Sita and Rama (with a Jaya, Jaya Laxmana, Jaya Hanuman sung along with during the refrain)', seeing a play and hearing the gist of the story is sufficient for one to 'enter into' the deeper understanding and appreciation for the transcentally tragic love saga of Sita and Rama. Admittedly, you don't need to go to an Iskcon temple or become a NM disciple to ge the 'inner meaning' of that lila; everyone with access can read Valmiki's version from the library. It's a matter of the heart, so someone has a deep interest and attraction to that particular lila then Supersoul will direct him or her to a teacher who will explain the finer points of sentiment as well as the 'next glorious chapter' of the seemingly ill-fated lovers' story; Radha-Krishna lila. "People of the World Need to come together People of the world (need to) Start a Brand New Day" stop the insanity stop the fighting let love live

Hamsadutta: "Prabhupad infected Kitanananda, Mukunda..then the virus spread.." Is this the same Hamsadutta who was 'one of the 11' and just survived a heart-attack? Did he have a brain aneurism also? Just as everyone was starting to remember him fondly for is 'ecstatic kirtans' he shows his old true colours; "anyone who joins a group like Iskcon of NM is less intelligent.." Right, Hamsadutta. They should all just listen to you. Even a close brush with death cannot stop those who are determined from spreading hate and division amongst the Vaisnavas, all in the name of Prabhupad.

Hamsadutta: "Prabhupad infected Kitanananda, Mukunda..then the virus spread.." Is this the same Hamsadutta who was 'one of the 11' and just survived a heart-attack? Did he have a brain aneurism also? Just as everyone was starting to remember him fondly for is 'ecstatic kirtans' he shows his old true colours; "anyone who joins a group like Iskcon of NM is less intelligent.." Right, Hamsadutta. They should all just listen to you. Even a close brush with death cannot stop those who are determined from spreading hate and division amongst the Vaisnavas, all in the name of Prabhupad.

Glad to be able to convey the words of Srila Prabhupad; yes, sometimes the 'sadhu' is maligned but fortunately we have the words of guru, sadhu and shastra to set the record straight!

Nice post, ILK, except for your comment that "a sadhu would sit idly and do nothing." We are encouraged to seek the association of sadhus whose lives are dedicated cent-per cent in the service of the Lord. In the transcendental socity of devotees there is no superior and inferior service, just different gradations. Householders who are serving Krishna by raising (hopefully) KC children are a vital, important part of the society yet we as householders need to seek the association of those who are in a position to give guidance and council. Gradually we too may become sadhus in this lifetime, even while living in the householder ashram, as exemplified by Bhaktivinode Thakur. But for most of us it is very difficult. That's why we need the association of the sadhus. Here's an excerpt from Srila Prabhupad: So if you want to increase your faith in Krsna, then you have to associate with Krsna bhaktas. Associate. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sangah. This sadhu means krsna-bhakta. Without becoming krsna-bhakta, according to Bhagavad-gita, nobody can become a sadhu. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Sadhur eva sa mantavyah [bg. 9.30]. Who? Bhajate mam ananya-bhak. Api cet su-duracaro bhajate mam ananya-bhak, sadhur eva sa mantavyah [bg. 9.30]. He's sadhu. Not that sadhu, simply like me, change the dress or having a long beard or... No. The sadhu means one who's purely devotee of the Lord. He's sadhu. Bhajate mam ananya-bhak. Without any deviation. One who has taken Krsna, the Supreme Lord, as the only worshipable, he's sadhu. Sadhavah sadhu-bhusanah. Titiksavah karunikah sadhavah sadhu-bhusanah. Ajata-satravah santah sadhavah sadhu-bhusanah. There, these are the definition of sadhu. Sadhu means titiksava. One who has taken Krsna as the Supreme Lord, Krsna as the Supreme Person, he has to tolerate so many things -- so many criticism, so many tribulations. Just like Prahlada Maharaja. Prahlada Maharaja had to undergo so much tribulation from the hands of his father because he became a sadhu, krsna-bhakta. The only fault was that he was a krsna-bhakta. Even the father, the atheistic father, became enemy. He wanted to kill him. You know Prahlada-caritra. If there is opportunity, we shall speak. It is horrible. Five-years-old boy, because he was chanting Hare Krsna, Narayana, the father became enemy. Titiksava. Therefore a sadhu has to become very tolerant.

On another thread you condemn Tripurari Swami for giving encouragement to gays and lesbians to become Krishna Conscious and now you are quoting Prabhupad as saying that such a mentality (that KC is limited to a certain section of people) is the symptom of a neophyte. BTW, Allen Ginsberg was a well-know homosexual yet Prabhupad encouraged him and displayed affection towards him, as evidenced here http://chakra.org./discussions/GenDec29_02.html Are you spreading KC all over the world? On the contrary, as evidenced by your continuous slagging of Tripurari Swami and absense of any talk about Krishna. Then why do you relentlessly critisize those 'godbrothers' such a Tripurari who are doing just that (spreading KC throughout the world)? By Prabhupad's definition he is being empowered and you cannot appreciate his exalted service. Furthermore, whatever disagreements Prabhupad had with his Godbrothers was resolved before he left his body. It appears that you are on a mission to promote riffs and conflict amongst the larger KC society. Give it a rest, Ksamabuddhi. I challenge you to start just one topic that inspires love and service for Radha and Krishna and their wonderful devotees.

Ksambuddhi, I'm going to follow my own advise and not respond to any of ritvik madness again, but I have to make one last comment on your statement: "Now he (NM) has created a large following of neophyte disciples who continuously and constantly make negative propaganda against a large section of devotees who follow the ritvik system of Srila Prabhupad." Why can't you accept the testimony of people who have said here that ritvik is a non-issue amongst Prabhupad disciples and NM disciples whom we have met and know. There is a NM disicple who I meet up with ususally on the street and every single time over the years we ALWAYS start talking about Krishna. I am almost forced to because she is so respectful of me just because I am a Prabhupad disciple; she is an example of other disciples I've met who are so very respectful to all SP disciples, even the ones like me who are fallen, and she brings out the Krishna Katha in me, right there on the street. The only thing she says about her guru is where he is or that she just saw him, although her love for him shines on her face. You are the one who is constantly creating a disturbance amongst Vaisnavas of various branches when in reality the majority of devotees, regardless of who their guru is, want to come together to glorify Radha and Krishna and taste some nectar. What you are 'constantly and continuously' presenting is dry sawdust; why not keep it to yourself.

I solidly agree with you regarding the excellence of mixy's post and that you have tried in a gentlemanly way discourage Vaisnava aparadha and point out the inconsistencies of Ksamabuddhi/Guruvan's statements. You are correct to say that he will never change his point of view, despite the mountians of evidence from the previous acharyas and best to let the thread die out (no reponses) except that in the brief time I've been here I've noticed that he just starts another thread with the same infamatory topic. My understanding is that Talasiga and Peter/valaya have been banned for a long time for whatever reasons but they have never lashed out at other people's gurus and told concocted untruths as K. is hell-bent on doing.

So now you're calling it the ritvik religion! Just FYI, both the Narayana Maharaj disciples who I've spoken to over the years here on the island and Prabhupad disciples never, ever talk about ritvik except on one occasion when it was brought up when a bunch of devotees got together for prasadam and kirtan, as in a passing comment and my godsister said, "Oh, ritvik, smitvik, who cares anyway? It's just an excuse for some people to fight over." Everyone present agreed, the kirtan commenced and it has never been brought up since. I remember that you were hyped up about this ritvik business since way back on the vnn forum days years ago and after you fell off of the roof of your house you pledged never to get into it again on the internet because it caused so much dissension. What is the point of fighting over this 'doctrine' on numerous threads? It's just another way to forget Krishna, imho.

Very interesting tidbit for the movie that will someday be manifested. Let us pray that we live long enough to see it on video! I take exception to catagorizaton of Visaka dd as madman, though. She is an example of the innocent, unsuspecting devotees who were conned and exploited by the king of 'no mercy is mercy' theocracy. During the two occasions that I was at New Vrndavan, I witnessed Kirtanananda's cruelty towards devotees. The first was the summer of 1973 while living in the same house/temple as Kunti devi and Hladini devi dasis, Satyabhuma and Paramananda, Brahmavitta and his wife, and a few other single women with children. The kids all got staph infection in their feet, legs, hands and Kirtananada wouldn't 'allow' us to take the children into the medical clinic for attention. Kunti devi has now left her body, and I can still recall her standing with tears in her eyes, telling me how Kirtanananda got 'so angry' with her for asking for a vehicle to take the kids into town because a red poison line was travelling up her daughter's arm and she was afraid she would die unless we took them in for treatment. She 'saw' Kirtanananda as Prabhupad's representative, who was Krishna's representative, so that whatever KS said was coming directly from Krishna. I was visiting for the summer, from Toronto temple, and had the good fortune not to be under the same spell as the 'inmates' (as KS crassly 'nicknamed' his prisoners)of NV so the situation was redeemed when I 'independently' carried my 3 year old son onto the road leading to town and proceeded to hitch-hike (it was still a public road then)into town, promising to 'bring help' from the medical authorities when I got there. I only say this not to praise myself, but to show what kind of a bully KS was when anyone had the 'power' (which simply meant 'belonging' to another temple and not him)to stand up to him. On hearing the news, he hastily arranged for a temple van to take us in and agreed to the demand for money for shoes for the kids. The next time was 1988. Another body had been discovered by the police the day before. A Prabhupad disciple, married to a KS disciple, with 4 young children was found dead, a bullet-hole in his head, burning in a firepit and being torn apart by pit bull dogs. I know this sounds like a Stephen King horror scene but it's true. When asked for an explanation from a sannyasi who name I can't remember except he was black and had a new york accent, who was standing with a middle aged brahmacari, the first thing the brahmacari said was "He was a just a fringie." Perhaps noticing the outraged look on my face, the sannyasi quickly intervened and said "It was suicide. He was breaking the principals, so he became depressed and shot himself in the head. It says in the Vedas that if you commit suicide and leave a material body behind, you take birth as a ghost, so he built a fire pit for is body to fall into after he shot himself. The pitbulls? They just happened to be in the area and started eating the body." Yeah, that's it. The teenagers who worked for tips in the restaurant filled me in on the real story. "He was murdered. The motive? His wife's parents brought her a house and some land in NV and KS wanted her to surrender it over to him. Her husband was also her guru (guru-pati)and he refused to let her. With him out of the way, she would have no choice but to follow the order of her initiating guru, KS. The wife, although stunned and seen in the temple room and prasadam room with her children going through the motions at first, later woke up and gave testimony against KS. What I don't understand is how he made a deal to go to jail for tax evasion and the murder charges were apparently dropped? Does anyone know anything about that particular murder and who if anyone went to prison for it? One more horror story (amongst thousands); a SP dsiciple who came with his wife and young children in the early 70's and worked as the main cook at the restaurant while his wife went on the road for years collecting funds, the kids in the gurukula, was told by KS that same year (1988) that he had to go out on tin-can money collection to pay for rent on the restaurant, which had been built and paid for by the devotees long before. A clear case of sadism, as the devotee tearfully told me that he tried to leave NV and KS ruthlessness the year before, but he was only able to make it to the nearest town (Moundsville)and with no money and no prospect of employment, and nowhere else to go he had to return. He hated going out, wearing the baseball cap and lieing to people about raising money for phonie charities. Again, just a few of thousands of stories of KS's cruelty towards innocent, well meaning devotees of Radha and Krishna. This talk about him 'paying his debt' will have some merit when he faces up to the grievous crimes he has committed against Krishna's dear devotees, humbly apologizes to his victims and renounces the name Bhaktipad, when he's been more deserving of the name Kamsapad.

For some reason, I assumed you are married and don't feel like editing my last post (cuz I think it was okay and I'm frazzled today myself for reason unrelated to sex)so I shall pass on Srila Prabhupad's sage advise on overcoming mundane sex desire; to hear, chant and meditate on the divine erotic pastimes of Radha and Krishna. When Arjuna confessed to Krishna that trying to tame the unbridled mind and senses was like trying to control the wind, Krishna said that it is possible by constant practise and detachment. without love all is in vain

That's why renunication is not recommended until one has reached the age of at least 50. At that time the sexual desires have naturally waned. For devotees it is a blessing; it doesn't mean husband and wife don't love each anymore, but that their spiritual life becomes more refined and deepened as the mind is no longer agitated, the children have usually left home and both parties can be free to engage in bhajan and prepare for death. Without transcendental knowledge, the poor conditioned souls panic when the sex desire vanishes and waste time and money on things like viagra and hormone replacement therapy to try to revive the sexual feelings. Especially for (unenllightened) men, it seems, their 'manhood' is so identified with sexual prowess that they feel somehow incomplete when this occurs. Until then, it is better to gradually reach a stage that is beyond attraction and repulsion, to do everything with love and kindness, whether it's within the realms of intimate exchanges with one's spouse or preparing prasadam to satisfy the Lord and (we must admit) our own desires to satisfy the tongue. Even the desire to taste delicious food gradually diminishes with age. When I was a child I was in awe at my grandmother's ability to keep a whole box of chocolates on her dining room table for weeks without eating the whole thing; left with the same box I could've devoured it the same day. Now that I'm older I can relate; I can bake a cake for my family and be satisfied with a tiny sliver while my 20-something year olds can eat the whole thing in one night without getting a stomach ache unless I restrict them. The same with sex desire which is really the desire for intimacy and pleasure. As we make gradual spiritual progress, the intimacy between ourselves and Krishna becomes more fulfilling and transcendentally pleasureable than the joys of sex.

Guruvani quoting Prabhupad: "Anyone who thinks he can make advancement outside this movement is living a great hallucination." Srila Prabhupad also said in a purport in CC: "There are many branches of the Caitanya Tree, this International Society for Krishna Consciousness is a one of them." Undoubtedly ISKCON has done much to both spread and defame the wider 'movement' of Lord Caitanya over the past 26 years, but the benediction rays of Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement is not confined to ISKCON. You praise Sridhar Maharaja (and rightly so) but he did not come out of iskcon and many who have left the institution continue to help spread those rays. After all, Krishna Consciousness is non-sectarian, as Prabupad himself always claimed.

There is a pattern over the years of individuals on one hand promoting Prabhupad as the only Guru for all mankind and then with the other hand never fail to remind the public of the worst sins of his disciples, as Guruvani has done. (No, Guruvani, guru is not synonomous with cheater and pedophile 'in the minds of most people these days'unless they've been talking with you. If Prabhupad had such a bad success rate, according to your estimation, then, as guest said, what hope is there for the anyone now and in the future who reads his books if all who heard before apparently failed so miserably?)

I thank you also for your thoughtful post, Audarya lila. Tho this thread veered off into a 'ritvik rag' the topic of responsibility of guru, both instructing and initiating, has elicted some enlightening responses thus far.

This site is dedicated to the deceased devotees; if anyone here remembers any of them, please post your memories as a tribute to them: http://www.iskcon.net/inmemoriam/

Theist said: Example: Modern society may come to recognize pedophilia in the same way it is now accepting homosexuality. Afterall pedophiles say they were born that way. The desire for children as sex objects seems very natural to them, inherent in their nature even. First of all, you are equating peophilia with homosexuality which are two very different issues. To say that 'modern society may come to recognize' the two issues is absurd, as pedophilia is a crime against innocent children whereas homosexuality is between two consenting adults and although illicit sex is strongly discourged in Vaisnavism it is not the same degree of offense as abusing a child. Many adult practising devotees have been guilty of illicit sex, which is in the same catagory as intoxication and meat-eating. BVT once was a meat-eater, even after he met his guru, but the parallel could never be made with sexual abuse of children. The modern law prosecuting and condemning pedophiles, even if they were born so sick and demented, will never change as the protection of innocent children is of crucial importance. Society even 'understands' pedophilia and accepts that such a person must be locked away or more recently registered as a sex offender if they are to be released into the public again. We all have anarthas we need to work on. I believe Tripurari's point is acceptance and compassion for the person who happens to be born gay and not condemnation.

"Anyway, why would a senior vaisnava be demanding or even expecting respect from anyone in the first place? Other than his own students perhaps and that for their own good." Theist makes a good point with the above quote. There have been so many instances during the history of ISKCON where long-time initiates and leaders have become extremely puffed up and reckless towards other devotees based on their 'seniority' in years spent within the institution. On the other hand, many times an uninitiated person will be seen to be trying harder to make spiritual advancement and is very respectful to the devotees who have been practising Krishna Consciousness for many years. Chintamani the prostitute wasn't initated but she is the spiritual master of Bilvamanga Thakhur because she encouraged him with her words to take full shelter of Krishna. As for anyone (initiated or not) chastizing us, isn't that usually a test from Krishna? Maybe that person can see some flaw in our character that we can't see, or maybe that person is just 'blowing off steam' and it's still a test to see if we can be patient and detached or if we fall into the trap of becoming angry and lash back.

Seriously, I am also interested in reading Purnaprajna's translation (with purports?) of Srimad Bhagwatam, but it seems as if this has been a joke or he would have responded by now, and probably sold a lot of copies, for curiousity's sake if nothing else.

I can only speak from what I observed and experienced while I was in ISKCON, 20 years ago. 1. The men and women got married without hardly knowing each other, let alone having mutual affection for each other. Seldom were their astrological charts done to see if they were compatible. 2. Many men (although not in every case)admitted up front that thet got married because they wanted to have sex, while maintaining a repulsive attitude towards sex so that the whole 'intimate act' became a source of resentment for the men ("I'm falling down because of her")and something the women tried to avoid...at their peril. 3. Although the Scriptures teach that one should never cause pain to another living being, wife-beating was never discouraged or preached against. A wife was the property of the husband and if she decided, for example, to go for a walk without his permission he was within his rights to drag her back in by the hair and if they happened to be living outside the temple property, beat her with his fists and feet in front of the children while screaming at her for being 'unsubmissive' to him. Whackos as well as great souls came to Prabhupad for shelter. Some of the whackos got married to Krishna's women, and no self respecting devotee of Krishna is going to stick around and take that for a lifetime. Nor would she expose her children any further to violent and insulting behaviour to prove her chastity, when real chastity is being faithful and submissive to Krishna and not some immature, mentally deranged male whose only knowledge of scripture could be found in the 'sexist quotes' section. 3. Some men and women actually were gay and were happier in their respective brahmacari and brahmacarini ashrams (free-flowing love without any sexual desire or improprieties) and were 'submissive' to institutionally arranged marriages. The ones I know of did part as friends and always did and still do have respect for each other. 4. Krishna's fault. He's the supreme home-wrecker of all times. "Give up your mundane husband or wife and come dance with me!" he said to us (who were at the right listening post)and some of us walked out the door (if we were being prevented from thinking of Krishna) and never looked back. And when we did many, many years later we realized that we never should have got married to so and so in the first place. We excelled in how to have an unsuccessful marriage. Think of it as a sacrifice so that future generations of Krishna's devotees will avoid making the same mistakes.