Bhaktavasya

Largest-Ever Blackout Hits Eastern U.S. 12 minutes ago Add U.S. National - AP to My By CALVIN WOODWARD, Associated Press Writer The largest power blackout in U.S. history rolled across a vast swath of the northern United States as well as southern Canada on Thursday, driving millions of people outdoors into stifling rush hour streets — then darkness. AP Photo Reuters Slideshow: Massive Blackout Hits Northeast Bloomberg: No Evidence of Terrorism (AP Video) Massive Blackout Hits Northeast Cities (AP Video) New Yorkers escaped silenced subways. Nuclear power plants in four states shut down. "We all are wondering what caused this," said New York Gov. George Pataki. President Bush (news - web sites) ruled out terrorism. The blackouts set off finger-pointing on both sides of the border. At one stage, Canadian authorities said it appeared lightning had struck a power plant on the U.S. side in the Niagara Falls region, setting off outages that spread over 9,300 square miles, but U.S. officials quickly disputed that. The blackouts started shortly after 4 p.m. EDT, engulfing most of New York state and nearby parts of New England, and spreading west to Ohio and Michigan. In Toronto, Canada's largest city, workers fled their buildings when the power went off. There also were widespread outages in Ottawa, the capital. Power began to come back as evening wore on, but officials said full restoration would take much longer. Officials in Detroit urged people to stay home during the night; nearby communities declared curfews to keep problems to a minimum. By Thursday night, New York authorities had electricity back on in parts of the Bronx, Westchester County and Long Island. About half of the one million homes and businesses that lost power in New Jersey had it back. Outages ranged over an area with roughly 50 million people. New Yorkers scrambled down endless stairways in skyscrapers where elevators stopped working, and some subway commuters were stuck for several hours underground. In the city that took the brunt of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, people filed into the streets with little fuss and looked for ways to get home. "I'm trying to keep calm," said Aaron David, 27, who works at the United Nations (news - web sites). "But I was here for 9-11. This doesn't happen every day." Traffic lights were out throughout downtown Cleveland and other major cities, creating havoc at the beginning of rush hour. Cleveland officials said that without the power needed to pump water to 1.5 million people, water reserves were running low. New York state lost 80 percent of its power, said Matthew Melewski, speaking for the New York Independent System Operator, which manages the state power grid. Both New York and New Jersey declared states of emergency. As darkness fell, city dwellers turned to candles and flashlights as scattered parts of the electrical grid came back on. People gobbled ice cream from street vendors before it melted, and chugged beer before it got warm, and gathered around battery-operated radios for updates. Su Rya, 69, in batik shirt and shorts, guarded a store on 125th Street in Harlem. But when asked about talk that looting might break out, he said, "That's barbershop talk. It's a different generation now." Marveled another man, "You can actually see the stars in New York City." There were outages in several Vermont towns and in northern New Jersey, where Gov. James E. McGreevey mobilized 700 National Guardsman and ordered 300 extra state troopers on duty. In Connecticut, Metro-North Railroad service was knocked out. Lights flickered at state government buildings in Hartford. Broadway shut down. Night baseball, too. The Mets were trickling out for batting practice in New York when the blackout hit and the game was canceled. Hours later, the visiting San Francisco Giants were still waiting in the parking lot for their bus. Some 500 miles west, the Toledo Mudhens' International League game with the Norfolk Tides was called off, too, to be made up as part of a doubleheader Friday night. "We have been informed that lightning struck a power plant in the Niagara region on the U.S. side," said Jim Munson, speaking for Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien. But Brian Warner of the New York Power Authority said its Niagara facilities were not hit by lightning and "at no time during this incident ceased to operate. In San Diego, Bush said "slowly but surely we're coping with this massive, national problem," and added that he would order a review of "why the cascade was so significant." Bush said he suspected that the nation's electrical grid would need to be modernized. In Albany, N.Y., several people were trapped in elevators in Empire State Plaza, but most had been freed by 5 p.m. People in New York City lined up 10 deep or more at pay phones, with cell phone service disrupted in some areas. Times Square went dark In Cleveland, Olga Kropko, a University Hospitals labor and delivery nurse, said the hospital was using its backup generators and had limited power. "Everyone is very hot because the air conditioning is off," she said. "Our laboring moms are suffering." John Meehan, 56, walked down 37 stories in the BP Tower in downtown Cleveland, wearing his suit and carrying a briefcase. "It makes you wonder, was this terrorism or what?" he asked. The FBI (news - web sites) and Homeland Security Department both said the outages appeared to be a natural occurrence and not the result of terrorism. Police in Mansfield, Ohio, spread into the streets to keep traffic flowing. "A lot of officers are out there trying to make sure nobody gets hurt, to try to cut down on the accidents," said jail officer Randi Allen. The blackouts easily surpassed those in the West on Aug. 10, 1996, in terms of people affected. Then, heat, sagging power lines and unusually high demand for electricity caused an outage for 4 million customers in nine states. An outage in New York City in 1977 left 9 million people without electricity for up to 25 hours. In 1965, about 25 million people across New York state and most of New England lost electricity for a day. On Thursday, Amtrak suspended passenger rail service between New Haven, Conn., and Newark. Some northbound trains from Washington — a city that did not lose power — turned around at Newark. Pataki urged New Yorkers to make do with less electricity when it returns. "Tomorrow is going to be a very tight energy day, obviously," he said. "We don't want people to think just because the lights are on they can use the washing machine." As for the cause, he said: "It was probably a natural occurrence which disrupted the power system up there and it apparently for reasons we don't know cascaded down through New York state over into Connecticut, as far south as New Jersey and as far west as Ohio." Nine nuclear power reactors — six in New York and one each in New Jersey, Ohio and Michigan — reported they were shut down because of the loss of offsite power, according to the Nuclear Regulatory Commission in Bethesda, Md. The blackout set off security precautions developed after the World Trade Center attack, with heavily armed teams of counterterror officers deploying at New York City landmarks and other sensitive locations. Officials swiftly realized the outage was not an act of terror and then used teams to make sure no one took advantage of the blackout to strike at a terror target, officials said. Flights at six airports — Kennedy, LaGuardia, Newark, Cleveland, Toronto and Ottawa — were grounded, according to the U.S. Transportation Department. In Times Square, Giovanna Leonardo, 26, was waiting in a line of 200 people for a bus to Staten Island. "I'm scared," she said. "It's that unknown `what's going on' feeling. Everyone's panicking. The city's shutting down." The blackout closed the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel, which 27,000 vehicles use daily, and silenced the gambling machines at Detroit's Greektown Casino. Patrons filed into the afternoon heat carrying cups of tokens. ******** I just got the cable on again (got it disconnected just before the war on Iraq after threatening my kids to get it cut for months)and have been following the events since this afternoon. There are so many theories already about what caused it. The Canadian prime minister at first said it was a bolt of lightning hitting a power plant on the US side, then the US said it was Canada's fault, now it's back to it happening on the State side. (at least it's brought the 2 countries together in a common crisis) I just heard on the radio that one nuclear power plant had been shut down in Ontario, Canada and 9 nuclear power plants have been shut down in the States. I wonder if there's going to be a big kirtan party at Times Square in New York. I'm sure some devotees will remember the story of when Prabhupad first came to New York and there was a major power outage one night. Some devotees ran up the flights of stairs in a building where Prabhupad was living (in an office, I believe)and they found Prabhupad sitting in the dark (or maybe he lit a candle or two) calmly chanting Hare Krishna while most of New York, including the devotees, were in a state of panic.

Todays sub-headlines from the BBC world news Indian peace push in Pakistan By Zaffar Abbas BBC correspondent in Islamabad A group of 30 Indian MPs and several journalists has arrived in Pakistan for a meeting with Pakistani counterparts as part of efforts to promote peace. Both countries are trying to work towards peace This is by far the biggest gathering of elected representatives and writers from the two sides since the start of the latest attempts to normalise relations two months ago. The conference is a private initiative by a regional grouping of liberal journalists known as the South Asia Free Media Association (SAFMA) but it seems to have the blessing of both governments. Several prominent Indian MPs, including those from the governing BJP and some other Hindu nationalist groups, are part of the delegation. Open debate So too are representatives of the Indian Communist parties and some liberal groups which have already been in the forefront of the peace campaign in the region. The Pakistani participants for the conference have also been drawn from a wide spectrum of political opinion, ranging from the governing Muslim League Party to hardline Islamic groups. There is no fixed agenda for the conference, but a spokesman for the organisers said it includes an informal meeting of the Indian delegation with Pakistan's president, General Pervez Musharraf. According to him, the idea of the conference is to allow politicians and opinion-makers from the two sides to have a frank discussion on outstanding disputes. He said it is a significant peace initiative as for the first time representatives of the hardline religious parties of the two countries are also participating in an effort to improve relations. Kashmir Interestingly, the Indian delegation also includes Ram Jethamalani, who is head of the official committee which has been holding talks with the separatist leaders in Indian-administered Kashmir. It is not clear if he plans to meet Kashmiri leaders on the Pakistani side as well. If such a meeting takes place, it will be a high point of this conference and may speed up the process for the early resumption of formal dialogue between India and Pakistan.

The Science of Mantra Meditation Excerpts from the writings of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Free Mantras Recently, an Indian yogi came to America to give some "private mantra." But if a mantra has any power, why should it be private? If a mantra is powerful, why should it not be publicly declared so that everyone can take advantage of it? We are saying that this Hare Krishna maha-mantra can save everyone, and we are therefore distributing it publicly, free of charge ... The devotees are preaching without charge, declaring in the streets, parks, and everywhere, "Here! Here is the Hare Krishna maha-mantra Come on, take it!" Path of Perfection

Another case of Prabhupad saying so many things that 'apparently' seem to contradict each other. He also said that devotees should preach according to their realization. One woman, Manahara dd, (originally from Detroit temple then Toronto) was told personally by Prabhupad: "Even if you don't know how to preach expertly, just tell everyone you meet; "Please chant Hare Krishna." She repeated this story to guests who would come to the temple for the first time then rush off to her duties in the kitchen.

Is this supposed to be a true story?

I would like to comment on the list of what the author of the article considers compassion which is actually cultural differences and ignorant assumptions. 1. opening a door for the guest. In small towns where the doors are not locked (particularly in Canada and not the US because of the population and crime rate)often friends and relatives knock once then walk right in; "Hi, it's so and so" and the younger kids will most often rush to hug and embrace the relative or close friend of the parents. In America the knock could be a serial killer or salesperson so the parents will be the ones to see who is there and open or keep the door closed depending on who it is. 2. Refreshments are usually served by the adults as kids in the west often are in school or involved in after-school activities and it is not unheard of that the older children, if at home, will be asked to 'help set the table' or lend a hand in serving the guests. 3. Pot-lucks are popular in the West as usually both parents work. Western kids who are old enough do indeed help out with cooking though in both cultures it is still primarily the woman who is the main cook and clean-up person although it varies with relatives, guests and kids often helping out in that area if it's a big meal and not just tea and cookies. 3. Sitting and talking with guests and relatives: In the West the move has been to not force kids to sit and pretend to be interested in hearing what EVERY guest or relative has to say. The way it usually spontaneously works is that the closer the relationship to the child that the visitor has, the more natural the conversation due to inquiry on the part of the grandmother, aunt, uncle, long-time good friend of the parent. The guest could be a someone the child has met twice, from Mom's writing group, dropping by to give her some very important advise on 'story-booking' here manuscript. They'd hardly want a bunch of or even one kid hanging around 'politely' trying to get in on the discussion. In East, tradition would have it that the sons and husbands would be all sitting in the same room as the author Mother, giving critique on 'what is the problem' with her novel and 'here's what to do' even from the 13 year old son. The West, for all it's flaws, at least has the Mom free enough to say "Everybody clear out; Reesa and I have important things we need to talk about...surely you have homework to do!" The even more liberated woman has her own office, den, to compose and receive guests for private conversations. 4. "The children will give up their beds and bedroom for the guest." That statement is so uninformed to indicate that the author may have had a personal experience where he visited a Western household and expected to be given a bedroom, being 'representative' of the East, and had to sleep on the couch. Speaking of which, the West either has extra bedrooms, 'guest' pull-out couches in the living-room (which most 'guests' in the West dont mind at all, grateful for even) with the always special exceptions for aging parents (who traditionally insist on taking the couch)and then it's the parents who give up their bedrooms, not the kids. 5. (In the East)"they will give up their clothes for the guest's children." The author does sound as if he has just arrived in the West as a (invited?) guest at a home where he noticed everyone had too much and he perhaps needed a change of clothes and clothing for his children. I'm not trying to sound mean here, but maybe all he should've done was asked for some clothing? In the West it would be considered an insult to offer someone your clothing without being asked for charity, unless you were very close friends or relatives and you knew the person would appreciate it as a gift of love and not charity. I just realized I'm 'debating' with a ghost because the author of the article is unnamed, unsourced, and unlikely to appreciate my perspective on East vs West culture and his definition of Compassion. ********************* I read this thread through early this morning and when I got to the part about the 'parents' who were SP disicples (not just guests visiting) being "'dysfunctional' 50% to blame for 'what happened to their children', they should've got jobs" and I actually put my hand to my cheek, it's the old 'slap in the face' again (but 'we parents' must be getting used to it). No doubt some karma involved, our kids got a lot worse. Maybe we shouldn't have read that first BTG. Maybe it was Maya and not God who brought us to the temple. Maybe we should have found jobs or stayed in school, chanted at home and came to the Sunday feasts (unless you lived hundreds of miles as did many devotees). Maybe we should've sent our kids to what SP called 'the slaughter-house schools', but that wouldn't be 'fully surrendering to the desire of our guru that they be educated in the gurukula. Maybe, maybe, maybe. But we didn't. And we did, stay, as cooks, pujaris, cleaners, pot-washers and book distributors. The (cruel?) joke was on us. "Hari! 'He who takes everything away!' Bring it on!" "Be thou happy by this Sacrifice (for the Age, the sankirtan movement)for it's performance will bestow upon you all desirable things" (Like a spiritual life and one for our kids, peace on earth, mass kirtans, ....we were such fools!) Krishna must take some of the 'responsibility' too. Maybe, and quite possibly, He has plans afoot for the movie production of "What Really Happened". As Priitaa said "You really had to be there." To know the story, that is.

I think that it's in the beginning of Srimad Bhagwatam, in a purport, where Prabhupad describes intelligence as the ability to discriminate between matter and spirit, something that is probably not figured into the standard IQ tests.

My 23 year old son is way more intelligent than I am; he notices things that I don't, he has an excellent memory for facts, figures, dates of historical events and can site word for word a conversation or scenes from a movie, as well as get honours in his school grades, but he can't pull one over on me when he's telling a fib about something. Also, if he starts getting too puffed up with his ability to retain knowledge and gets condescending (especially towards his Mom)then I know Krishna is going to set him up to make a mistake to humble him and sure enough, it happens. Isn't wisdom (that is supposed to come with age and experience)more important than intelligence, not that being intelligent is a defect as it can help one greatly in (hopefully) avoiding certain pitfalls due to ignorance but in the long haul it's kindness and being in a state of Grace that attracts Krishna and not just being a smarty pants (as I sometimes remind my son). And then there's misused intelligence...

My understanding is that Durga is Shiva-shakti as she is the consort of Lord Shiva, although not in the same mood or feature as Pravati. Then again, Subhadra, the sister of Krishna and Balaram and wife of Arjuna, manifested herself as Durga in Kamsa's dungeon when Kamsa tried to kill her. The same Subhadra is said by Prabhupad in the Krishna Book to be the YogaMaya potency of the Lord.

He opened with "what did they do to deserve this?" and I used examples of great devotees who were renounced from personal wealth. Of course, one might say you have to have it before you can renounce it! But I understand what you mean; being poor can certainly be an impediment to KC in this materialistic world because the mind is often pre-occupied with how to get money just for the basic necessities of life. Isn't it also true that in special cases the Lord will withhold Laxmi from the immature devotee to (as already mentioned here) to help him or her depend soley on the Lord. There is that saying by Prabhupad; "If Krishna likes you, he gives you everything and if he loves you, he takes it all away." That's a hard one to swallow, but if a devotee finds him or herself in a bereft situation, according to Prabhupad it is Krishna showing special mercy. When Prabhupad's business failed while in householder life, was it because he wasn't pleasing Krishna? No, Krishna had plans for him and by 'ruining' his business, Prabhupad could see that it was time to retire from family life and come almost penniless to America. It seems very individual. For some the advice to earn just enough money to maintain body and soul or only for the bare necessities of life is suitable, but that seemse more for the celibate student and sannyasi.For householders, more is required for the needs of the children, their education, the cable and internet bill (joking). As for Iskcon, cerainly Krishna withdrew Laxmi long time ago because She was being abused and used along with the devotee population. Present day Iskcon may still be paying the price, and maybe that is Krishna's special mercy.

Didn't Laxmi curse the brahmans to always be poor? The Goswamis weren't rich, neither was Jagannatha das Babaji or Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakhur. Laxmi is Chancala, flickering and unsteady. Sometimes devotees are poor and sometime Krishna bestows riches on them. The test is that we remain devoted, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, for better or worse. Then even in death, He will never part from us.

.."even if they inquire for millions of years, still they are bewildered." Srimad Bhagwatam What may seem externally like an inauspicious event (going to jail)is always auspicious for a devotee and especially for the poor, conditioned souls who would otherwise be bereft of a 'first hand' experience of Krishna Consciousness. Al glories to the wonderful devotees of the Lord, who always remember Radha and Krishna in heaven or in hell.

If you surf the net (as we are doing)to find sadhu sanga, enter a hospice as long as you're thinking of Krishna or think of a devotee woman (not for sense gratification but because she inspires you to remember the Lord) then what is the harm? Death is surely coming for all of us, some sooner than later and I for one am thankful for the internet because I can hear from more evolved devotees here and through e-mail (I get Tripurari's sadhu sanga lectures). I would be grateful for a devotee hospice at the end of my life and thinking about my dear godsisters who are eons ahead of me in Krishna Consciousness can only be to my eternal benefit. I know they are going back to Godhead, and maybe if I remember them, Radha and Krishna will let me slide in out of affection for them.

You said: To this Chakravartipada would reply, "Lord Krsna is so kind that He takes away your karma; but He is so kind that He gives it right back. Could you please quote where this is said? Unfortunately, I cannot recall exactly where Prabhupad said this, but I know it is in a purport: "When someone surrenders unto the Lord, he is never again under the laws of ordinary karma, but directly under the contol of the Lord." So it seems that our karma that we would have had to undergo is at least minimized and to the degree that we surrender, Krishna is personally in charge of what happens to us. Because we have come in contact with Krishna Consciousness and heard Bhagavad Gita, there may be some residue karma from our past lives but instead of being tossed around by the modes of nature, we act differently in a situation than we would have normally. An example may be that from past lives we may be conditioned to react angerly to a provoking situation. By practising 'being a devotee' we may fall prey to anger, but because we have some transcendental knowledge and with the help of Krishna, we try to quickly check such a destructive emotion. Without the grace of Krishna and our own efforts, we may have continue on full steam, even justifying it and the results (karma) would be to fall through one of the gates leading to hell. Another example would be that our karma may be that we are attracted to volitile situations because that's what we were entangled in in previous lives. With just a little progress in KC, we may still find ourselves 'mysteriously' drawn toward situations or people who are volitile, but the higher taste of serenity, peace and joy in KC will result in us withdrawing more quickly from the entanglement which may, in extreme cases, got us (perhaps)murdered violently. That would have been our karma, not because we are necessarily bad, but because we have a perverted attraction to dangerous situations. Surrendering to Krishna means that when the Supersoul intervens, we listen to Him and take the necessary action to avoid the bad karma that would have resulted had we 'unconsciously' plunged ahead. How may times have we heard devotees say that if not for the grace of guru and Krishna, they would have committed suicide, ended up in a mental hospital, and those are the sensitive ones! Some of us may have pursued what would seem laudable in the material world; the acquisition of money, fame, prestige, without regard of how many people we may have stepped on to reach our 'goals'. The result being the creation of more karma and absence of any love for God and our fellow humans at the time of death. Prabhupad also said that even the best astrologer is only 50% correct. Jayatirtha das was told by Srila Prabhupad's astrologers (when he was a guru in Iskcon) that by the year 2000 he would be the most famous spiritual master on the planet and the thousands of women would take shelter of him. He died a tragic death in 1987 and maybe that was "Krishna karma", not because he was an evil person as he served his guru and Krishna faithfully for many years but because Krishna wanted to teach others a lesson and perhaps bring him back home more quickly. The last part is of course my speculation. Oh, and he did become famous, but not in the way he expected and thousands of women did not take shelter of him, fortunately for them. In conclusion, I respectfully disagree with your thesis that our karma remains unchanged when we surrender to Krishna.

Gauracandra Member Reged: 06/17/00 Posts: 2520 Loc: US Lord Caitanya and Guru Nanak [re: kbhakt] 02/28/03 12:03 AM Edit Reply Here is something from “The Life and Times of Lord Caitanya” by Steven Rosen. A sixteenth-century Oriyan manuscript called the Chaitanya Bhagavat says that Mahaprabhu met with the founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak. The author, Ishvar Das, one of Mahaprabhu’s followers in Puri, was the only biographer to mention the event, perhaps because the meeting was brief and only the eyewitness devotees of Puri knew about it. According to Ishvar Das, “Sri Caitanya, the Lord, joined in the kirtan with Nanak, who was accompanied by his disciple Sarang. Rupa and Sanatan were also there, as were Jagai and Madhai. They all engaged in kirtan, dancing in ecstacy.” (Ishvara Das’s Chaitanya Bhagavat, Adhyaya 61). Ishvara Das continues: “In the congregational singing led by Shri Caitanya and Guru Nanak, Nagar Purushottama followed suit. Two disciples, Jangli and Nandni, also joined in. Gopal Guru, for whom Guru Nanak felt deep affection, was there as well, along with Nityananda Prabhu, who was considered an incarnation of Balarama. They all relished the kirtan at Jagannath Puri.” (Ishvara Das’s Chaitanya Bhagavat Adhyaya 64). Thus there are scholars in the Gaudiya tradition who are confident that Mahaprabhu and Guru Nanak resolved all religious differences in the holy name of Krishna. There are scholars in the Sikh tradition, too, who have documented the meeting of Lord Chaitanya and Guru Nanak. Ganda Singh, for instance, says that the meeting actually occurred in 1510, during one of Mahaprabhu’s earlier trips to Puri. And Trilochan Singh fixes the date at 1512. Still others place the meeting at a much later date, perhaps 1518. Regardless of the disagreement over when the meeting took place, all these references acknowledge the historicity of the event. *********** Interestingly, I did a search on Google for references to Krishna in the Guru Granth and found conflicting opinions amongst modern day Sikh preachers, while some others tried to show the harmonization of Hinduism and Sikhism through the writings of Gandhi and others. Then I did a search on "Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Guru Nanak" and came up with this revelation from Gauracandra on this forum from 5 months ago! It reminds me of devotees of both Hindu and Sikh religions sometimes try to focus on the differences, each one claiming superiority, while Sri Caitanya demonstrated how to harmonize various faiths and traditions by congregational chanting of the holy names.

Gauracandra Member Reged: 06/17/00 Posts: 2520 Loc: US Lord Caitanya and Guru Nanak [re: kbhakt] 02/28/03 12:03 AM Edit Reply Here is something from “The Life and Times of Lord Caitanya” by Steven Rosen. A sixteenth-century Oriyan manuscript called the Chaitanya Bhagavat says that Mahaprabhu met with the founder of Sikhism, Guru Nanak. The author, Ishvar Das, one of Mahaprabhu’s followers in Puri, was the only biographer to mention the event, perhaps because the meeting was brief and only the eyewitness devotees of Puri knew about it. According to Ishvar Das, “Sri Caitanya, the Lord, joined in the kirtan with Nanak, who was accompanied by his disciple Sarang. Rupa and Sanatan were also there, as were Jagai and Madhai. They all engaged in kirtan, dancing in ecstacy.” (Ishvara Das’s Chaitanya Bhagavat, Adhyaya 61). Ishvara Das continues: “In the congregational singing led by Shri Caitanya and Guru Nanak, Nagar Purushottama followed suit. Two disciples, Jangli and Nandni, also joined in. Gopal Guru, for whom Guru Nanak felt deep affection, was there as well, along with Nityananda Prabhu, who was considered an incarnation of Balarama. They all relished the kirtan at Jagannath Puri.” (Ishvara Das’s Chaitanya Bhagavat Adhyaya 64). Thus there are scholars in the Gaudiya tradition who are confident that Mahaprabhu and Guru Nanak resolved all religious differences in the holy name of Krishna. There are scholars in the Sikh tradition, too, who have documented the meeting of Lord Chaitanya and Guru Nanak. Ganda Singh, for instance, says that the meeting actually occurred in 1510, during one of Mahaprabhu’s earlier trips to Puri. And Trilochan Singh fixes the date at 1512. Still others place the meeting at a much later date, perhaps 1518. Regardless of the disagreement over when the meeting took place, all these references acknowledge the historicity of the event. *********** Interestingly, I did a search on Google for references to Krishna in the Guru Granth and found conflicting opinions amongst modern day Sikh preachers, while some others tried to show the harmonization of Hinduism and Sikhism through the writings of Gandhi and others. Then I did a search on "Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Guru Nanak" and came up with this revelation from Gauracandra on this forum from 5 months ago! It reminds me of devotees of both Hindu and Sikh religions sometimes try to focus on the differences, each one claiming superiority, while Sri Caitanya demonstrated how to harmonize various faiths and traditions by congregational chanting of the holy names.

and for thanking Forest for introducing the topic.

With great love and affection, the maha-bhagavata observes the supreme Personality of Godhead, devotional service and the devotee. He observes nothing beyond Krishna, Krishna consciousness and Krishna's devotees. the maha-bhagavata knows that everyone is engaged in the Lord's service in different ways. He therefore descends to the middle platform to elevate everyone to the Krishna conscious position." (Cc. Madhya 16.74) Now, a maha-bhavata is in the uttama adhikari stage but is an uttama adhikari always a maha-bhagavat? It seems from this statement that a maha-bhagavat, out of compassion, descends to the middle platform 'to elevate everyone to the KC platform'. An uttama adhikari appears to be so 'blinded by love' for Krishna that, as Prabhupad says someplace else, "sees only his (her) beloved Lord everywhere". Elsewhere in CC, Prabhupad comments on Krishna das Kaviraj's claims to be 'lower than the worm in stool' and explains that this is not false humility but that the on the top-most platform a devotee actually feels that way. That everyone else is serving Krishna better than him or herself. Isn't there a quote from a compilation by Sridhar Maharaja (Nectar in the Lives of the Surrendered Souls?)that says something like; "I've been cheated! Everyone else is going back to Godhead, and I've been left behind!" It's understood that there are states of divine madness in the highest stages of love of God, so it's a good thing that most of us will not reach the stage of UA until we're getting ready to leave our bodies. Until then we can only try to catch glimpses into the mind and vision of an uttama adhikari.

Most of Prabhupad's initiated disciples were single brahmacaris and brahmacarinis when they got initiated and remained celibate until they got married, in many cases years later. The sex drive is very powerful while still in one's youth, and from what I experienced and heard from my Godsisters, it was usually the men who were brahmacaris for years, with pent-up sex desire, that insisted on sex outside the propagation of children, causing much turmoil within the marriages. Incidentally, Iskcon at one time had the highest divorce rate of any religious or spiritual group. As for later falling down due to weakness, it shouldn't be seen as insincerity on the part of the devotees but proof of how strong the forces of Maya are. What to do? Give up KC altogether or keep chanting and praying to the Lord for the spiritual strength to remember Him, in spite of our failings? Dont' be so harsh in your judgement of devotees who didn't 'make the grade'. There have been leaders who were apparently strictly following all the rules and regulations but were cruel to the Vaisnavas and drunk with power. Rules and regulations don't guarantee that one will become automatically pure and selfless. We are advised to be hard as steel with ourselves and gentle as a lamb with others. Recognize out own failings and limitations but don't condemn others for not being perfect.

Come on, Theist, who did you think the one ghost looked like? You can't tease with a bit of info then leave everyone hanging on in suspense! I, for one, will not accuse you of 'blowing hot air'.

I found it very strange that in 4 different temples (Gerrard Street and Avenue Road in Toronto, the Evanston temple aka the Chicago temple and in Durban, South Africa)there were incidents were ghosts were trying to smother and attack devotees. I myself was 'smothered', unable to breathe or move a muscle, at the Evanston temple. The 'spell' was only broken when I tried with all my mental strength to repeat the holy name. After much effort the name 'Krishna' formed and escaped from my mouth, making the ghost vanish. Other devotees were attacked in their sleep and in Gerrard Street case, a devotee's sister who was expert in such things sussed out that the ghost was trying to communicate something. A thorough search of the attic turned up old books that the ghost was attached to (apparently)and the devotee's sister had a talk with the ghosts, took the old books away and the ghost never returned. In Evanston we burned extra incense and had kirtan through the hallways of the women's and men's ashram. They eventually left. The temple pres. said that the building was formerly an old YMCA and that unhappy souls had probably lived there before it was renovated into a temple, so they were returning. There were stories of men standing in the shower and 'seeing' the ghosts (more than one)watching them. The Durban ghost was the most intense 'almost suffocated' experience; each time, in each temple, I was only 'attacked' once, but the Durban ghost felt so heavy on my chest, it felt like it was going to collapse. Again, we had a giant kirtan that night, going out onto the grounds of the temple. The temple pres. there speculated that it was the doings of one of the women devotees who he didn't like (that she was a witch)but her husband discounted the idea and no-one else thought it was her fault. There was a lot of talk about offenses to devotees by the temple authorities, but in any case the maha-ghost vanished after the big kirtan and never returned. Seeing as I have been in mode of ignorance situations in my life before coming to KC (and after)and only one other time did I have a ghost experience while sleeping as a child, I have always been curious as to why ghosts like to hang out in Hare Krishna temples. Could it be that they are attracted to devotees, albeit in a perverse way? Maybe they left after being purified by the extra incense offerings and loud chanting, perhaps released from their ghost bodies and allowed to reincarnate again? Just speculation, of course.

Yes, Krishna alone knows her heart, from previous lifetimes, and how special she is to him. Having a guru to help her understand that Krishna is no 'flash in the pan' love affair (hear that, Guest?)will help keep the 'Romance' alive in her heart. Even if her eternal identity is from Chandravali's camp or as one of Krishna's queens or girlfriends (one never knows who's who these days, what with reincarnation and the Lord's Plan not yet fulfilled and all that) then we know that Radha would take opportunity to converse with a bumblebee. Such deep ecstasy, divinely sanctioned madness, while Krishna is absent, somewhere else, with someone else.

Srila Prabhupad once said; "If there is a spark of Krishna Consciousness, then fan it." I agree with Govindaram, "Let the girl love Krishna, in her own simple way." Love for Krishna is very rare in this world, as Theist pointed out and as taught by Prabhupad, it is ususally a sign that that person has had some kind of contact with Krishna consciousness from a previous life. Such fortunate persons are to be encouraged in their attraction for the Lord and not be reprimanded or dismissed as lusty. Even lust for Krishna is purifiying. Guest: If we want to love Krishna more fully, we need to know him (to know him is to love him)and with some investigation we will discover how deeply in love he is with Radha. Her love is our shining example, but it is so mysterious that even Krishna himself appeared as Sri Caitanya, with Radha's mood and sentiments, to try to understand that love. Krishna's love for each soul is individual and perfect, yet he has proclaimed that it is Sri Radha 'alone' who is the queen of his heart. As it's been said, if you really love Krishna then you will love Radha eventually because they are one.

Such a wonderful Saving the Day thread. Prabhupad said in purport that there are 2 kinds of pure devotees. Those who have achieved the perfectional stage and those who have not yet reached it, but they are trying and (something about being guaranteed of success, eventually)so they are also considered pure devotees. So it interesting that Prabhupad said "so many things" that seemed bewildering later. If the disciple is to see everyone as a pure devotee ("in time, just hang in there and we'll all be in 'pure devotee land' someday, together") then it can and usually does present a potentially dangerous situation. Someone could say "I read that 'quote' from Prabhupad and took it as my spiritual life compass, and look what happened, to me, to my offspring, to 'our religion'! It's all been a SHAM!" Tieing this in the 'Prabhupad's Godbrothers' theme, to take one comment, (that would never have made it to print if Prabhupad had the time or help from his godbrothers with the editing)and promote it as 'church doctrine', elbowing out 'vancha kalpa tarubyas ca..' is an even more dangerous path for the soul. Meaning that, even if you 'believe' Krishna has cheated you, your guru has 'tricked' you're not sure about your faith, in time, if you can live long enough, you realize that you have everything. That Krishna never left your heart, that your guru 'ignited' him there in your soul, that you weren't so smart after all when you thought you were 'a sort of pure devotee', and that life isn't so bad after all. In the other case, 'using' Prabhupad's words to promote hatred, vilification and division is, as Sridhar Maharaja has said, "like spitting at the sun; it will come back and hit you in the face." Pray for Peace Obeisances to all the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord

Living Entity asked; "Are you saying we should just let it go on?" It is already going on and not the place of a devotee to allow or disallow gays raising children. My cousin and her life-partner (for over 20 years)have raised a son who is now in his teens and is a well-adjusted, above normal intelligent boy who is also involved in sports like hockey. As she told me one time, when people know they are a gay couple the first thing SOME people think of is their sexual realationship, which she says in a very small aspect of their relationship. On the other hand, when they meet a heterosexual couple, most people don't automatically think of what they do in the privacy of their homes and bedrooms. They treat each other respectfully, their son didn't grow up seeing physical and verbal violence that takes place,certainly not all, but in too many families. They have no intention of separating or 'divorcing' and will probably be there for each other and their son until they're old and sex is no longer an issue. Isn't our role as devotees to give everyone something postive about the KC experience and leave the rest to Krishna? Judging and condemning anyone because they are different doesn't help them to have a postive experience of KC (even gays can read Bhagavad Gita and make spiritual progress in this lifetime) and it doesn't increase our own love for God.