Amlesh

We are all here to let that not happen. Even though I don't know my own fate. But I get encourage when I hear the sweet Lord saying, My devotee never perishes or you'll come back to finish what you've left. For Him we are always green, what we need to do is just to take his name. Cheers.

Yep, it's that book only that made me understand the universality of Vaishnavism.

It's by their grace only that very tough verses are put to simplicity for us to comprehend. Thanks for providing us the link, I'll read the book.

Thanks. I have some songs from His Divine Grace Bhaktivinoda Thakura which aare really nice. I've also one book from Him (Jiva Dharma I think) which is really nice.

Thanks dude, for always making us remember the important dates.

Yep, the best example is Narad Muni. However, what I've learnt from Srimad Bhagvatam is that chanting should become with time a natural process and not a self imposed or disciplined process. In SB, Lord Shiva explains, in the beginning follow the rules to become disciplined in the Bhakti marga and with time one should become unattached to those rules...Just like Narada Muni, his taking the name of Narayana is very very natural without any imposition and he does it constantly. but all this happens just like Theist said, only after being in the position of humility.

Self realisation in the normal way is not meant for animal. And I explicitely said following svadharma in a renunciant way. And why taking the example of an animal here which is not relevant in this context. Everything has become a fanfare, and maybe you also are participating in that fanfare. A rare soul can never be attached with a particular organisation, he is free. He likes association of pious but lives in solitude [confirmed by Gita]. And since when did Sanyassi start living in group? Since vedic ages, a sanyassi has been ordered to live a solitary life and he wanders here and there for the benefit of mankind and sleeps and eat and drink and rest alone. A Sanyassi must also be the pot & plate cleaner. All stupidity is clear to me, since ages I've been master of it, maybe I'll continue to be so. I don't close my eyes on things. I like to see things AS IT IS. I'm also a student of SP, but in a very different way.

It's simple, people often ask where they can get a genuine Guru etc, to advance they need this and that and sometimes the list is very long. Some joins ashramas etc, and very often get themselves betrayed. This is called trying to cross the ocean by a dog's tail. The requirements for perfection is a sincere endeavor, depending on our degree of honesty about our spiritual quest, the Lord will be revealed in the required form. For the most perfected it will be Lord Krishna or Lord Rama or any of the Forms of Vishnu or others you know the unending list. The Guru also will be revealed.. It is only for those surrendered truly that all these things are activated. If a genuine ashrama is there, you'll get admitted by Krishna, if the ashrama is not genuine and you are there, nothing can happen to you [provided you are genuine]. Trust Krishna more and continue with your duty.

SP had a nice vision, but he perfectly knew the natural phenomenon known as Degeneration of the society. And you are right bija, such things are common in all so-called Ashramas. I do understand about the good people, but if they fear about something, then they are no longer good. They've not really surrendered to Krishna since they prefer to cross the sea of material existence through a dog's tail. The need of association is ok [provided the associates are genuine], but it has become a pretext for hiding the fear we have of facing the world alone [infact we are never alone, Krishna is there].

Bhakti has taken a new dimension these days, too many hierarchies. Before we used to call such place as hermitage, ashram etc, today we should call it Organisation, institution etc with its Profit and loss and Balance sheet etc... Perform or get lost.

Yep, I know. Many have used the temple as an excuse to run away from their fear of the material world. Any person fearing to explore the material world for the benefit of Humanity is still a coward. Criticising the material world outside but not knowing that they themselves have become expounder of the Karmic way of living.

Anyone who follows his svadharma in a renunciant way is known to be a Sanyasi. Provided all results of activity are submitted to Hari. There is no need for selection or interviews, you become with gyan and surrender. A saintly king also is a sanyassi. A bramana is the most important person in the entire universe, from him we learn all principles, after learning we need to perform for Krishna. Asking from others about selection criteria is really funny, it limits the scope and beauty of vaishnavism. Iskcon is making an industry to produce Sanyasis, but they don't know that a rare soul is indeed a rare soul.

Good, I appreciate that. Count how many are seperatist and how many are still in accordance to SP in the proper way in the Iskcon arena, without offence. There are more internal discord and time are wasted with that than really get the external thing done for the benefit of the world. And my points have not yet been debated, which I'm waiting for; I won't mind to be proved wrong.

The temple life also is very funny, they say that they are not Karmi, but in Substance they are some sort Karmis only. There is no difference between the outside life and temple life. Some of them also fear of losing their place in the temple, if not working hard or making some mistakes... Just like Mr X fearing to get fired. They don't pay much heed to Varna, but they are some sort of using it. Everything has its department and need to report also. It is more like practicing a culture. But I won't deny its importance... but truly, there are things higher than that in the repertoire of Vaishnavism. Read the Gita well, you'll get the answer. SP did whatever he could and also gave all the possibilities, according to our level of consciousness we'll chose our path to make further progress or reach directly Vaikunth after death.

Try to know the story of Shivaji Maharaj and his encounter with Saint Tukaram and how and why the great king was asked to seek guru siksha from the great Vaishnava Samarth Ramdas Swami. Very interesting, it will answer everything concerning Varnashrama.

Your understand is many times higher than mine. That's y maybe I see it some other way.

And certainly preaching is more of a job for the Brahmana, many do not have that quality. Arjuna, was Kshtriya, that's why he was more concerned with his fighting skill, even after knowing the supreme truth. It's here the context of Varnashrama Dhama enters, but in the end he threw all his weapons in a river, knowing that it's of no use. This is the material world, we need to perfect ourselves little by little, according to our nature. But in the end one realises, why it is not called heaven, that's why the concept of Selfless action is important. Any person fullfilling his duty conveniently, preaches directly or indirectly, but should be done in a Bhakti mood. The best modern example might be Mohandas Gandhiji, he was a politician but preached by practicing his duty.

Yep, that's the true mission of everyone. And there should not be any excuse of not doing it. But one should preach to the extent the listenener can understand, more than than can deteriorate things. Misunderstanding and misterpretation crops up and any action taken by such person, becomes more harmful.

But many dies without hearing his advice. But I'm happy about the Bhagvata Doctrine, chances for perfection are always given. Naturally, Lord chaitanya is for everyone, but not everyone can understand his teachings, that's why options are always given. Even in the Gita, Krishna gave a lot of options to Arjuna, saying if you cannot follow this, do that. But Arjuna was a fine student.

But I've understood right now, and that too with your help. Whatever the lord has said is perfect, but he said it for the chosen One, that rare soul. the Varnasrma is superficial after reaching a certain level [the ultimate level], but for those who have not still perfected Varna-asrama still stands. Gita explains the Law of Akarma, which is very difficult to comprehend, for those who have understood it, any rules applicable to Duty becomes superficial, but for those who have not yet understood the secret of Duty, Varna Ashrama, is the next best option.

...there is a similar story in Srimad Bhagwatam, where Narad Muni was cursed by Daksha. Very interesting and quite similar in perspective with this thread.

True, but anything done in this material world do conveys something material in the perspective of a layman. Bhakti is the final aim of any entity. Caitanya's opinion is the final opinion. The rules of Varnasram was created by the Lord only, to be followed. This rule, if we see in depth, conveys spiritual message only. But in one perspective I should admit, when completely surrendered, there is no rule to be followed, but just waiting the command of Hari. Very complex issue.

It has existed in the past, and it will continue to exist. Nothing to do with any temple or any society. All the companies of today's world are still following this principle. But blindly, not really knowing about its origin and benefits. In the ancient times in the western civilisations, divisions were there in terms of (Noble, administrative, peasants) classes. Even today... If I take a company I might find the Director [intellectual], security [Kshatriya], Sales and Marketing [Vaishyas], and manual worker [sudras]. But before things were done as a matter of duty, but today it's different, it is done for satisfying our own desires [the more we earn the more we enjoy, no matter with what means] and also with ego, thinking oneself to be the doer. Varna-Ashrama is not as simple as it seems, many wants to achieve Bhakti, but many are still ignorant about the principle on which Bhakti has its framework. One of the criteria of achieving Bhakti, is first to fully understand Varna Ashrama.

The process flow that you are mentionning is not something invented lately or a Reserved Right but an old and known process mentionned by Krishna. Everyone has to pass through it before one day knowing the real aim of life. That's why I know how to talk your way also, and pretty well too, humbly speaking. When circumstances ask me, I do so, but not all the time. It depends on the topic level. Some speak about Spirit and some about Material nature. I never neglect anyone of them, knowing perfectly the source of material nature. But it seems you are one sided, I'm wondering when you'll be ask to speak about spirit, whether you'll be of any help. Good, at last some Vaishnavas thought. But better than Knowledge is Bhakti [Application of Knowledge - but in Svadharma mode - Selfless action] Good again, but you also come from a school of thought which in some other words not original. Your preacher are the scientists, whilst for others are Gurus. But had you really known the proper meaning of Vaishnavism, you would not have said that. Sarva Dharman Parityag means that only. Your way is still one sided, neglecting the other aspect, that is the soul. Gita never says that this is not important and that is important, Gita Says everything is equally important. Your material nature, and other stuffs. These things are quite visible and known to many. That's why He spoke about the soul also, because Soul is still a mystery for so many. Yep at a certain level, but when you'll become one day the fortunate rare one, you'll understand that the Father and mother is the same, Our Very Ram.

Knowing the future does not mean influencing someone in choosing his path. In that case there would be many other different wrecks since there is no limit to the stupidity of man. In you believe in the soul, then I cannot afford to make mistake all the time, and if you don't believe in the soul, then there is no guarantee of perfection before our so-called end. The shopkeeper might be unaware of the thief, then whatever you've said is applicable and it is applicable even if he is aware of it. But in the end you need to surrender before the Shop Keeper. Same way, Krishna Knows, confessing or not confessing is the same (Shop keeper might or might not be ignorant but Krishna is not). However surrender is a must. Yes you are right, devoid of Truth, everything becomes hell. But no one wants to inquire about the Guardian of Heaven and Hell. The Judge, the Chastiser, the Maintainer of the Law of Karma.