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(for Vaishnavas) Is Shiva God?

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Now if you are incapable of grasping simple english, that means, of the two options (British and Muslim kings), Indians chose the latter. Evidence?

Indian chose what?. You have very little common sense.When was the last time the ruled have a choice?.



Sepoy Mutiny where Hindus and Muslims fought together to oust British rule and one of the firsr things they did was to put Bahadur Shah back on the throne.

The bengalis might have been ok with Bahadur Shah.So what?.Does that negate what i wrote earlier?.


The indian soldiers employed by british were also protecting their masters interests vi-a-vis Indians.Does that mean Indians in general wanted british rule?.I see that logic and detail is not your forte.



None of which matters to our local fundamentalist, Chandu. His sole intent is to malign Muslims and show them as the root cause of all evils. He is fine with the British moving the Kohinoor to UK,


Hmmm, too many speculations?.When did i say muslims are root cause of all evils?


And when did i say i am ok with british moving the kohinoor?:crazy2:.


Can't stomach facts? don't you?.

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Well do you know this is not a nationalist forum,there are more foreigners here in this thread than indians.

The indian people are here too busy with jyotish and mantra tantra

The vedic astrology is the site which is full of indian and i think there are 97% only indians there.

So you think what the indians here are interested in.


what do you think ? an average indian is less spiritual than an average western guy ?????!!!!!!!!!!!

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what do you think ? an average indian is less spiritual than an average western guy ?????!!!!!!!!!!!


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No they are more im talking about indians in this site and how do you define spiritual

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So in other words, what you are telling me is that GV's don't object to people worshipping Shiva for liberation. They only object to worshipping Shiva in the context of Advaita?



From what I remember reading in Prabhupada's books is that less intelligent people worship Shiva. I wouldn't call it objecting as Prabhupada also said don't waste a bunch of time trying to debate too much about this sectarian disputes. Vaisnavas are not supposed to be worried about winning debates and controversies as much as they are supposed to be presenting Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad As it is or at least how they view it being. I go by Prabhupada's books because those are the books that came to me when I was searching for answers but I don't personally begrudge other people's takes on the Vedas. It is like the Christians they are broken up into so many different sects and they basically all hate each other but in life there really is no time to waste on hate and it is better just to focus on the beauty of Jesus or Krishna or Siva whatever floats your boat.

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<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by raghu

This is from the siddha-pranali thread. As a matter of good net-etiquette, I did not want to cause that thread to go off on a tangent, so I started a new one.

Now my question is this - and this is primarily for Vaishnavas, since Advaitins and Neo-Advaitins may not really care one way or another. If you say Shiva is God, and that he is the same as Vishnu, they why object to Shaivism? Why object to the idea that one can worship Shiva for liberation?

In this regard, Gaudiya Vaishnavism seems far less like pure Vaishnavism compared to previous traditions. But then again, I have also read repeated references to Shiva as "demigod" in the iskcon books, which makes the GV position on Shiva somewhat inconsistent.

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All gods or demi gods (whatever you may call them) who are in the taratamya( a relative grading of gods according to the effectiveness of the potential for moksha that is created AND NOT on the basis of "who is more powerful", which is followed by dwaitins), are important to worship in Vaishnavism.


The objection to Shaivism stems only from the fact that Shaivites reagrd Shiva as Supreme Godhead. Interestingly, By doing this, shaivite people follow a different direction other than that of moksha. But it is not an objection, actually(see last part).


In Vaishnavism, it is very important to worship demigods( demigods are defined as those gods whose body is destructible(kshara devatas) by Vishnu, Vishnu and Lakshmi, having Akshara bodies) since these gods really help the devotee to find physical and emotional strength required to tread the difficult path of attainment of moksha. You have no idea how respected Shiva is, in Vaishnavism as he is the greatest Vaishnava, and he helps Vaishnavites during the struggle to attain moksha(again, moksha is a difficult concept, it can, very basically , be explained as "LEARNING TO GIVE UP THIS WORLD"). So does Hanumun, Parvati, Ganesha and all other gods.



An interesting point: Gods have different roles in different traditions(or so called hindu castes of advaita, vishishtadvaita(ramanuja) and dwaita(madhwacharya).


Those who are born as Advaitins(Shaivites) need to experience the fruits of whatever Shiva offers when someone worships Him. According to my experience, a person who worships a God attains qualities like Him. example those who worship shiva become materialistically benevolent, wanting to help others, perhaps when angry their outburst is violent(Rudra).


Those who are born as Vishishtadvaitins(of Ramanuja tradition) need to experience in this life, fruits of mixed nature: both materialistic and spiritual( that is to say, they will use their +ve materialistic past karma to get to(in the path of) attain moksha.


Those who are born as Dwaitins(Madhwacharya) need to experience the final struggle of giving everything up in order to ascend ABOVE pleasures of flesh( includes eating, sleeping, mating, ambitiousness to achive anything materialistic) , in the process, learning to never be born again(its the soul that is learning, or what one might call the higher self). It is important to note the importance of all the other demi gods as they will help the person learn to lose everything. Demi gods are pure representative of everything materialistic(starting from basic happiness in life to marriage, family(denoted by Parvati devi), scientific learning(denoted by among many others: ganapati and bhrgu), etc etc).



Those who are born as Krishnologists(ISKCON) or gaudiya Vaishnavites are also on the same path(more or less) as those of Vishishtadvaitins.


Those who are born as Muslim or Christian have in their soul's goal, to catch up on many many things materialistic. In other words, they need to experience worldly pleasures.


Those who worship tribal deities( whatever tribal lands there are), only pray to thank and request the continuation of materialistic benevolence of food, clothing, shelter, medicines, hunting etc etc.



Those who are born as buddhists are very similar to Shaivites, except that their learning aims to transcend human souls to "buddhalands"( different kinds of "heavens" presided by various bodhisattvas) inorder to help mortal people in the matters of say health, relationships, career etc etc(same materialistic benevolence as Shaivism). example of bodhisattvas: avalokitesvara, amitabha.



As an assertion to the above para, when i recite Shiva panchakshari and concluding phalastuti which reads


"panchaksharamidam punyam, yahpathet shiva sannidhau. shivalokamavapnoti shivena saha modate"


The latter sentence in the above quote says that whoever is a devout worshipper of Shiva goes to Shiva's land(Shivaloka).


Shivaloka is a kind of buddhaland(or some kind of heaven).


Different gods give different fruits. According to what a soul has to learn, it is born in different religions or castes or whatever.


Atheists are not a big exception to this rule. Those who dont worship any god, have everything in their "logic" and intelligence to learn what is needed to learn in their current life.


Learning here means not much "knowledge" as much as "experience". Experience will yield the truest knowledge.



IT does NOT matter who you worship(as Supreme godhead). You will worship what your caste specifies or your ishta devata or whatever. The reason why you worship a particular deity is more important: its because that is the area in your karma that you need to learn about, in this life.



According to my experience with different worships of hindu gods, I have found a difference in the worship of Krsna and Vishnu. krsna is an avatar of vishnu. It is also correct that Krsna is an expansion of Vishnu and not vice versa. this statement may seem redundant but it is not, since it is important to discern and diffrentiate even between avataras of the same god. Same with different forms of Shiva. And powerfully applicable to different forms of durga.


tell me if my facts are inconsistent with anything you believe.



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