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Tirisilex

Krishna Return?

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Yes!

I think that Tirisilex is talking about the Shyama tribhanga form of Krishna. I don't know if he meant His other forms such as Mahaprabhu etc.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed that Shyama tribhanga form to Ramananda Raya, then he showed that he was Radha and Krishna combined.

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Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu showed that Shyama tribhanga form to Ramananda Raya, then he showed that he was Radha and Krishna combined.

 

Yes, He only revealed this to some special souls. He is a channa avatara after all.

Please don't think that I think Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is different from Sri Krishna. That is absolutely not true. They are one and the same.

 

I am sure Tirisilex knows about Mahaprabhu. I think what he meant was will Krishna appear just as he did at the end of Dvapar yuga, will he appear like that again?

 

indulekhadasi

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<a href=http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/20/397/en target=new>Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 20.389</a><BLOCKQUOTE><CENTER><FONT COLOR=RED>ataeva goloka-sthAne nitya vihAra

brahmANDa-gaNe krame prAkaTya tAhAra

</CENTER>

ataeva--therefore; goloka-sthAne--in the original Goloka VRndAvana planet; nitya vihAra--eternal pastimes; brahmANDa-gaNe--within the material universes; krame--gradually; prAkaTya--manifestation; tAhAra--of them.

<B></FONT>

"The eternal pastimes of KRSNa are continuously taking place in the original Goloka VRndAvana planet. These same pastimes are gradually manifested within the material world, in each and every brahmANDa.

 

PURPORT</B>

SrIla BhaktisiddhAnta SarasvatI ThAkura elucidates this complicated explanation of KRSNa's pastimes. KRSNa's pastimes are always present in the material world in one of the many universes. These pastimes appear in the universes one after the other, just as the sun moves across the sky and measures the time. KRSNa's appearance may be manifested in this universe at one moment, and immediately after His birth, this pastime is manifested in the next universe. After His killing of PUtanA is manifested in this universe, it is next manifested in another universe. Thus all the pastimes of KRSNa are eternally existing both in the original Goloka VRndAvana planet and in the material universes. The 125 years calculated in our solar system to be KRSNa's lifetime equal one moment for KRSNa. One moment these pastimes are manifested in one universe, and the next moment they are manifested in the next universe. There are unlimited universes, and KRSNa's pastimes are manifested one moment after the other in all of them. This rotation is explained through the example of the sun's moving across the sky. KRSNa appears and disappears in innumerable universes, just as the sun appears and disappears during the day. Although the sun appears to rise and set, it is continuously shining somewhere on the earth. Similarly, although KRSNa's pastimes seem to appear and disappear, they are continuously existing in one brahmANDa (universe) or another. Thus all of KRSNa's lIlAs are present simultaneously throughout the innumerable universes. By our limited senses we cannot appreciate this; therefore KRSNa's eternal pastimes are very difficult for us to understand. One should try to understand how they are taking place by understanding the analogy of the sun. Although the Lord is appearing constantly in the material universes, His pastimes are eternally present in the original Goloka VRndAvana. Therefore these pastimes are called nitya-lIlA (eternally present pastimes). Because we cannot see what is going on in other universes, it is a little difficult for us to understand how KRSNa is eternally manifesting His pastimes. There are fourteen Manus in one day of BrahmA, and this time calculation is also taking place in other universes. KRSNa's pastimes are manifested before fourteen Manus expire. Although it is a little difficult to understand the eternal pastimes of KRSNa in this way, we must accept the verdict of the Vedic literatures.

 

There are two types of devotees--the sAdhaka, who is preparing for perfection, and the siddha, who is already perfect. As far as those who are already perfect are concerned, Lord KRSNa says in the Bhagavad-gItA (4.9), tyaktvA dehaM punar janma naiti mAm eti so 'rjuna: "After giving up this material body, such a devotee comes to Me." After leaving the material body, the perfect devotee takes birth from the womb of a gopI on a planet where KRSNa's pastimes are going on. This may be in this universe or another universe. This statement is found in the Ujjvala-nIlamaNi, which is commented upon by VizvanAtha CakravartI ThAkura. When a devotee becomes perfect, he is transferred to the universe where KRSNa's pastimes are taking place. KRSNa's eternal associates go wherever KRSNa manifests His pastimes. As stated before, first the father and mother of KRSNa appear, then the other associates. Quitting his material body, the perfect devotee also goes to associate with KRSNa and His other associates.

</BLOCKQUOTE>

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Srila Prabhupada explains Nitya-Lila:

That spiritual body... SanAtana GosvAmI has said that those who are being liberated from this material world, they are offered a spiritual body where KRSNa-lIlA is going on. KRSNa's pastimes, VRndAvana-lIlA, or as KRSNa manifested His different pastimes when He was present, that is going on eternally. As soon as He leaves this universe, in another universe His lIlA becomes manifest. KRSNa is born... KRSNa is born here at JanmASTamI, and as soon as KRSNa is taken to Gokula by Vasudeva, KRSNa is seen in another universe, born again. Just like our sun. As soon as it rises at six o'clock or, say, five o'clock... So as soon as here five o'clock finished, in another place five o'clock begins. But it is going on. Ananta-cakra. The five o'clock is permanent. Anywhere, there must be some five o'clock. Anywhere, there must be six o'clock. Anywhere, there must be seven o'clock. Just like the twenty-four hours is going on. You cannot say that the sun's rising at five o'clock, because it is finished within your view, it is finished. No. It is not like that. The five o'clock is permanent to the sun. If it is so possible to a material thing, why not KRSNa? Therefore it is called nitya-lIlA. Nitya-lIlA means eternally JanmASTamI is going on. Eternally everything is going on, eternally. So one who is liberated from this world and he is given the spiritual body, he's immediately transferred to the place where KRSNa's lIlA is going on. Just like in VRndAvana, when KRSNa was present, all the VRndAvana-vAsIs, they were not ordinary men; they were liberated. They transferred to associate with KRSNa, practice. And after this complete practice, they were transferred to the Goloka VRndAvana. So therefore, Sukadeva GosvAmI says about the boys, cowherd boys, playing with KRSNa, kRta-puNya-puJjAH. KRta-puNya-puJjAH. "Oh, how much these boys have accumulated their pious activities! Now they are transferred here to play with KRSNa." KRta-puNya-puJjAH.

 

itthaM satAM brahma-sukhAnubhUtyA

dAsyaM gatAnAM para-daivatena

mAyAzritAnAM nara-dArakeNa

sAkaM vijahruH kRta-puNya-puJjAH

[sB 10.12.11]

 

"Oh, these boys, it appears that they are cowherd boys playing with KRSNa," appreciating, Sukadeva GosvAmI. "Oh, how much they have accumulated their pious activities so that now they have got chance to play with KRSNa personally!" They are not ordinary cowherd boys. So, similarly, all the gopIs, all the cowherd boys, they are not ordinary men. They've given chance after many, many births accumulating the devotional service. Devotional service so nice. In one life they can be benefited with that position as cowherd boy, as he likes--as friend, as gopIs. That is possible. Therefore, the devotees are so much austere, so much, I mean to say, penanceful, that "This life we shall attain this position." One is hoping to be KRSNa's friend, one is hoping to be gopI, one is hoping to be friends of YazodA. So everything is possible, paJca-rasa, the five rasas in VRndAvana. One is hoping to be a tree there, a grass there, a flower there.

 

So this is possible. So... And KRSNa says, mad-yAjino 'pi yAnti mAm. YAnti deva-vratA devAn pitRRn yAnti pitR-vratAH mad-yAjino... [bg. 9.25]. "Those who are cultivating KRSNa consciousness, they come to Me. They come to Me." So where is the difficulty to understand the whole philosophy of KRSNa consciousness? It is very simple. Everything is there. We have to understand, and we have to be very serious and sincere. The thing is there.

 

Thank you very much.

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Forgive me for my seemingly amatuerish question, but first I was told that Krishna appears only once in a full day of Brahma (ie. every 8.64 billion Earth years) yet later on I was informed that Krishna actually appears in every Dwapar Yuga. There seems to be a contradiction here. Is it perhaps that only once in a full kalpa does Krishna actually descend in His original spiritual form whilst in every other Dwapar Yuga, one of the purusha avatars of Vishnu descends in a form identical to that of Krishna's? This is my interpretation, but I don't really own copies of Srimad Bhagavatam, so I don't know first-hand whether my interpretation is true or not. Also, if Krishnavatars appear in each and every Dwapar Yuga since a day of Brahma begins (almost 2 billion years ago, in this particular instance), then were there dinosaurs roaming the battlefield of Kurukshetra when Krishna delivered the Bhagavad Gita to Arjuna during a Dwapar Yuga that occurred approximately 100 million years ago? And yes, that is a serious question from me. :)

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He who goes returns...

He who has never left never needs to return...

he is present everywhere and like the maakhanchor that he is he looks at us and hides before we get the chance to look at him...

with faith bhaktas see his form...

why wait for him to assume a human form... for the form neither increases nor decrases his stature...

he is what eh is and to a bhakta he shall be loved irrespective whether he has a human form or not...

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Forgive me for my seemingly amatuerish question, but first I was told that Krishna appears only once in a full day of Brahma (ie. every 8.64 billion Earth years) yet later on I was informed that Krishna actually appears in every Dwapar Yuga. There seems to be a contradiction here. Is it perhaps that only once in a full kalpa does Krishna actually descend in His original spiritual form whilst in every other Dwapar Yuga, one of the purusha avatars of Vishnu descends in a form identical to that of Krishna's? This is my interpretation, but I don't really own copies of Srimad Bhagavatam, so I don't know first-hand whether my interpretation is true or not. Also, if Krishnavatars appear in each and every Dwapar Yuga since a day of Brahma begins (almost 2 billion years ago, in this particular instance), then were there dinosaurs roaming the battlefield of Kurukshetra when Krishna delivered the Bhagavad Gita to Arjuna during a Dwapar Yuga that occurred approximately 100 million years ago? And yes, that is a serious question from me.

 

Krishna as well as Mahaprabhu appear only once in a kalpa, and this information is given to us by Srila Kavirajapada in his Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. There is no scriptural evidence that I am aware of for the Krishna in every Dvapara-yuga or Rama in every Treta-yuga theory. Several Puranas as well as Srila Rupa Gosvamipada in his Laghu-bhagavatamrta place the timeframe of Sri Rama in the late Treta of the 24th chatur-yuga of Vaivasvata Manvantara, which would make the appearance of Bhagavan Ramachandra about 19 million years before present. As for Sri Krishna, he appears at the end of Dvapara in the 28th divya-yuga of the 7th Patriarchate, or reign of Manu. And this is the verdict of shastra. In other Dvaparas, a different dark-hued avatara descends to the material universe. Likewise, as per traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta, Shri Chaitanya advents Himself in the early Kali era immediately following the yuga of Sri Krishna's descent.

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He who goes returns...

He who has never left never needs to return...

he is present everywhere and like the maakhanchor that he is he looks at us and hides before we get the chance to look at him...

with faith bhaktas see his form...

why wait for him to assume a human form... for the form neither increases nor decrases his stature...

he is what eh is and to a bhakta he shall be loved irrespective whether he has a human form or not...

 

This is beautiful, Shivaduta. Regards

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Swami B. V. Tripurari

Q. I am wondering if there are names of Lord Caitanya that are meant to specifically refer to his incarnation as Radha-Krsna and distinguish him from the yuga incarnation of Narayana that appears in other Kali-yugas.

A. The yuga avatara is Gaura-Narayana. Our Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Gaura-Krsna coming in the place of this yuga avatara. He engages in sankirtana and delivers the world with the Hare Krsna maha-mantra. Although sankirtana is the dharma of Kali-yuga in general, in the current yuga cycle there is a special concession. The concession is that Gaura-Krsna has woven a wreath out of prema (love of Krsna) and sankirtana, and he seeks to garland the world with it: nama-prema-mala ganthi' paraila samsare (Cc 1.4.40).

When Raja Prataparudra, the king of Puri, first witnessed the sankirtana of Gaura's associates, he was filed with wonder (camatkara). He had never witnessed this kind of kirtana, this kind of dancing, this kind of love, aiche prema, aiche nrtya, aiche hari-dhvani kahan nahi dekhi, aiche kahan nahi suni. The Raja was no stranger to the glorification of Krsna. He presided over a city that was host to millions and millions of pilgrims who came for the glorification of Krsna as Lord Jagannatha. When he asked his brother-in-law Gopinatha, who was familiar with Gaura's kirtana, to tell him what it was Gopinatha replied, caitanyera srsti—ei prema-sankirtana, “This is the creation of Sri Caitanya. It is called prema sankirtana.”

Not all forms of sankirtana offer prema, but the sankirtana of Gaura-Krsna is about prema alone. Indeed, it frowns on mere deliverance (mukti). The nama mantra recommended by Sri Caitanya is mentioned in the sruti. Kali-santarana Upanisad calls this nama mantra taraka brahma nama. The sixteen words in this mantra are three names, Hare, Krsna, and Rama, arranged such that the names Krsna and Rama are uttered four times each, and the name Hare is uttered eight times: Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. Taraka means deliverance, and deliverance is the result of singing this nama mantra in Kali-yuga. It delivers one from samsara. However, the special concession of Sri Caitanya is a result of his being Gaura-Krsna, rather than Gaura-Narayana.

Sri Caitanya is not the usual Kali-yuga avatara who appears in the world to deliver people from birth and death by advocating the yuga-dharma. He is not an avatara of Krsna, but rather Krsna himself. Although he does teach the yuga-dharma, he has another internal agenda of his own, and he instructs us about it in his Siksastakam. There, after praising the essence of all spiritual practice with the words param vijayate sri krsna sankirtanam, Sri Caitanya delineates seven sequential effects of nama sankirtanam. In doing so he makes it abundantly clear that mere deliverance from samsara is not the full fruit of his prema-sankirtana. He does not chant merely taraka brahma nama, but paraka brahma nama. Paraka means competence—competent to give the treasure of prema, krsna-nama' paraka hana kare prema-dana. What then is the need for any other sadhana?

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Tears of joy if Brahman returns. :crying2: . . .

All manifestations (Maha-Vizva-Rupa) after Sankarshan originate from him. Maha-Vishnu, Ananta-Sesha, Timingila, and Vasuki.

Even a tiny of his positive/negative glories is unimaginable without his energies.

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Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

 

Those who are self-satisfied (atmarama) don’t need anything in this world. They are self-satisfied. They are liberated from the clutches of the material energy and are situated on the platform of eternity. They become astonished when they hear about the wonderful, transcendental qualities of Sri Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When they hear about His astonishing characteristics, an intense greed awakens in their hearts to serve Him. When self-satisfied personalities like Srila Sukadeva Gosvami and the four Kumaras Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatana and Sanat Kumara hear about Sri Krsna, intense greed to serve Him awakens in their hearts.

Liberated personalities want bhakti, and therefore, bhakti is the supreme goal for them. Those who are already liberated can become attracted to devotional service and understand that it is far higher than liberation, whereas those who are conditioned in this world cannot.

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Several Puranas as well as Srila Rupa Gosvamipada in his Laghu-bhagavatamrta place the timeframe of Sri Rama in the late Treta of the 24th chatur-yuga of Vaivasvata Manvantara, which would make the appearance of Bhagavan Ramachandra about 19 million years before present.

 

Yup, I've read about how the Laghu Bhagavatamrta mentions the events of Valmiki Ramayan having occurred during the Treta Yuga of the 24th chatur-yuga. We are now currently in the 28th chatur-yuga, so as you mentioned, the time difference between Sri Ramachandra's advent and the present day is approximately 19 million years. There goes Darwin's theory! :P As far as the theory of the 10 avatars (or any number of them, actually) recurring in the same particular order in each chatur-yuga is concerned, apparently the Mahabharat and Srimad Bhagavatam describe details about the Kurukshetra era that are quite substantially different from each other. Do you know anything about this? JN Das said that it was because the Mahabharat and Srimad Bhagavatam were describing two different events of the same basic pattern. I'm guessing that the battle of Kurukshetra described in Srimad Bhagavatam might not be the same battle of Kurukshetra that occurred just over 5,000 years ago. This leads me to believe that the structure of material time is comparable to a fractal; in other words, similar things happen over and over again. Time is not linear but a complex higher-dimensional shape like the Mandelbrot Set, each part of which is unique but bears a definite stylistic relation to the whole. Therefore war and peace, civilisation and devastation, happiness and suffering, elevation and degradation, birth and death happen over and over again in familiar yet ever-changing patterns. Read this thread for some info about the idea that Rama, Krishna etc. reappear kalpa after kalpa:

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/30963-dating-ramayana.html

 

The Vishnu Purana states that Vishnu assumes the form of Kapila in every Satya Yuga to impart the supreme knowledge to all living entities for their welfare. Then Vishnu assumes the form of 'Chakravarti' (Ramachandra, I presume), the world monarch, to punish the wicked and maintain the three worlds in every Treta Yuga. After that, Vishnu assumes the form of Vedavyasa to split the one Veda into four and then into hundreds of other branches for the benefit of all of humankind during every Dwapar Yuga. And finally, Vishnu assumes the form of Kalki to reestablish the wicked in the path of religion towards the end of every Kali Yuga. All of these 4 avatars appear once in each chatur-yuga, kalpa after kalpa. You can check out more info about all of this in this thread:

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/iskcon-internal/246204-vishnu-purana-ramachandra-every-treta-yuga.html

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Yes He comes whenever religion declines. But His saints is always present on the Earth when He is not.

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Bhagavad Gita As It Is 4.7

 

 

 

yada yada hi dharmasya

glanir bhavati bharata

abhyutthanam adharmasya

tadatmanam srjamy aham

 

 

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself.

 

PURPORT

 

...Although the Lord appears on schedule, namely at the end of the Dvapara-yuga of the twenty-eighth millennium of the eighth Manu in one day of Brahma, still He has no obligation to adhere to such rules and regulations because He is completely free to act in many ways at His will. He therefore appears by His own will whenever there is a predominance of irreligiosity and a disappearance of true religion...

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Yup, I've read about how the Laghu Bhagavatamrta mentions the events of Valmiki Ramayan having occurred during the Treta Yuga of the 24th chatur-yuga. We are now currently in the 28th chatur-yuga, so as you mentioned, the time difference between Sri Ramachandra's advent and the present day is approximately 19 million years.

 

Not just Rupa Goswami, but the Brahmanda Purana, Devi Bhagavata Purana as well as Vayu Purana state this. And JN Prabhu's take on the differences between the Bhagavatam and Mahabharata is that they describe events occurring in two different kalpas. In fact, some opine that the Bhagavata occurrences pertain to a prior kalpa, the Sarasvata kalpa, whereas the Mahabharata depicts the history of what happened in this day of Brahma, the Shveta Varaha kalpa.

 

 

Then Vishnu assumes the form of 'Chakravarti' (Ramachandra, I presume), the world monarch, to punish the wicked and maintain the three worlds in every Treta Yuga.

 

Chakravarti does not necessarily refer to Sri Rama, and I would need much more limpid statements than this one to propose that Rama-lila is played out so frequently on earth. As for Vyasa, each time a different person gets empowered by God to split the Veda and make it more accessible to the dull folks of Kali-yuga. "Vyasa" in fact means "divider." In the current chatur-yuga, it was Krishna Dvaipayana, and in the next, it will be Ashvatthama, the son of Dronacharya, who is at present engaged in severe tapasya (probably in the Himalayas) in higher dimensions of space. He will be one of the rishis to impart Dharma to humankind in the next Satya-yuga and also be the Vedavyasa at the end of the following Dwapara. In the next period of Manu, he shall act as one of the sapta-rishis, as will his maternal uncle, Kripacharya.

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In the current chatur-yuga, it was Krishna Dvaipayana, and in the next, it will be Ashvatthama, the son of Dronacharya, who is at present engaged in severe tapasya (probably in the Himalayas) in higher dimensions of space.

 

Thanks for providing me with such fascinating information in your post, Bhagavata Prabhu. I also have an anecdote I would like to share with you about Aswatthama. It is an intriguing anecdote that my grandfather told me a few years ago, so the details that I'll provide to you will no doubt be very vague (as I don't remember much of what he told me). But in any case, I don't have any compelling reason to doubt what my grandfather has told me, as I know him to be an extremely honest man. Anyway, there are many rumours in India that revolve around a tall man with a gaping hole in the centre of his forehead aimlessly roaming the forests of Northern India (Aswatthama). My grandfather recently told me an account about how one of his brothers and that man's wife went to visit a small, remote village in Northern India (the next time that I see my grandfather, I will ask him precisely where in Northern India and then post it in this thread). I'm not sure how many years ago they visited this place and my overall memory of this account is quite poor, so I'll try to ask my grandfather to re-tell the whole thing to me as soon as possible. Anyway, moving on..... they were sight-seeing this village and engaging in simple chit-chat with the villagers. All of a sudden, a VERY tall man (approximately 12 feet tall, I think my grandfather said! :eek2:) walked into the village. This man had a noticeable dent in his forehead and in the middle of his forehead, there was clearly a circle or hole there. It seemed to be an injury of some sort, but there was no scab which had developed where the hole was. Small drops of blood seemed to seep out of this hole and there were numerous flies that flew around this particular area of his body. The man was quite silent until he approached a man inside a small shop selling traditional Indian food. He politely asked the owner of the shop something like 'What have you cooked for me this time?' and, in response, the shop owner served him a vast amount of rotis, dhals and other Indian foods to quell his appetite. So HUGE was this mysterious man's appetite that he apparently cleared out the shop's entire stock of food! Then this man became thirsty and requested water. He was given a large pot (about half my height and twice my width) by one of the villagers which was filled right to the top with fresh water. He promptly went to this pot and proceeded to drink ALL of the water held inside it until not even a single drop remained! My grandfather's brother and his wife had supposedly seen this occurring in front of their very eyes and were quite astonished. They asked a nearby onlooker if he knew who this man was. He responded by saying that he was Aswatthama, who was described in Mahabharat! He further clarified that Aswatthama entered this particular village every year (but only once every year) for approximately a few hours in a single day merely for food and water. Then he would silently walk off deeper into the forest without making a sound. I asked my grandfather out of curiosity how and why these villagers could be so calm and offer him food and water even though they are aware of the many grievous sins associated with Aswatthama. My grandfather responded by saying that whenever one is hungry, he or she should be given food and whenever one is thirsty, he or she should be given water... regardless of that person's character or identity. It should be done because it is a selfless thing to do. It should be done not simply because it generates very positive karma for a person, but because it is the right thing to do. This is what my grandfather's response was. Upon closer inspection on this anecdote my grandfather told me, it makes SENSE that the man who entered that village was indeed Aswatthama himself! The man was said to be EXTREMELY tall. The events of the Mahabharata occurred during Dwapar Yuga (the age which occurred just before this one) and, if I remember correctly, the average height of humankind during this age is between 12-14 feet (to be honest, I don't REALLY know much about this 'feet' unit of measurement at all, since we use the metric system here in Australia! :P). This man was said to have eaten an ENORMOUS amount of food and drank an entire pot FULL of water. The regular appetite of people in Dwapar Yuga would probably be considerably greater than what it is today (in proportion to their taller average height). Also, this man was said to have had an injury in the middle of his forehead. In the Mahabharata, Aswatthama was said to have been born with a precious gem known as chintamani embedded onto the centre of his forehead. After the end of the Kurukshetra War, Sri Krishna forcefully pulled this gem out of Aswatthama's forehead as a part of his punishment for his crimes. It is written in the Mahabharata that blood began to pour profusely out of the hole in the centre of Aswatthama's forehead where the chintamani gemstone had been removed. The removal of the chintamani gemstone caused him SEVERE physical pain. To me, it ALL adds up. That man was most likely Aswatthama! What do you think, does Aswatthama still wander around in certain regions of India in a physical body from time to time?

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Wow, very compelling indeed. If it is true, then there is no reason to think that the individual would lie about his identity. At 12 ft, the man would stand 3.66 metres and would be way taller than 8 ft 11 (2.72 m), the height of the tallest recorded human being, who was an American (as per the Guinness book of records). Please update yourself on this story and fill me in. I definitely wanna know more.

 

Regards

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