Does Initiation Make the Maha-Mantra Work?

[suchandra 1]

This question might be asked, but, "one who fully engages in chanting the holy name need not depend upon the process of initiation."

 

It is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta:

 

 

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

 

Translation:

"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

(Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 15.108)

 

Prabhupada: "To chant the holy name of the Lord, one need not depend upon other paraphernalia, for one can immediately get all the desired results of linking with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It may therefore be questioned why there is a necessity for initiation or further spiritual activities in devotional service for one who engages in the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The answer is that although it is correct that one who fully engages in chanting the holy name need not depend upon the process of initiation, generally a devotee is addicted to many abominable material habits due to material contamination from his previous life. In order to get quick relief from all these contaminations, it is required that one engage in the worship of the Lord in the temple. The worship of the Deity in the temple is essential to reduce one's restlessness due to the contaminations of conditioned life. Thus Narada, in his pancaratriki-vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment, to restrict this sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshiping the Deity in the temple are essential. Srila Rupa Gosvami has described that the holy name of the Lord can be chanted by liberated souls, but almost all the souls we have to initiate are conditioned. It is advised that one chant the holy name of the Lord without offenses and according to the regulative principles, yet due to their past bad habits they violate these rules and regulations. Thus the regulative principles for worship of the Deity are also simultaneously essential."

[Beggar 0]

Getting the result of chanting the Holy Names without initiation is like counting on getting an honorary degree. It definitely happens and so does winning the lottery. Best to enroll in the "university of Krsna Nama" which is the sampradaya of our guru varga and matriculate - practice sadhana and seva under their divine guidance.

[Guruvani 0]

I think shastra is quite explicit that the Hari-nama is not dependent upon initiation.

However, I get tired of digging through the books and the Vedabase everytime some issue comes up and people are demonstrating that they are clueless about the Gaudiya siddhanta.

[Beggar 0]

 

I think shastra is quite explicit that the Hari-nama is not dependent upon initiation.

However, I get tired of digging through the books and the Vedabase everytime some issue comes up and people are demonstrating that they are clueless about the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Dude, I thought I said, "It definitely happens", If you read my post closely,Dude! Are you saying that I'm "clueless" about Gaudiya Siddhanta Dude, Well, Dude, I was thinking about it the whole time that I was out trick or treating, Dude.

[gHari 0]

So it is the opinion of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu that:

CC Madhya 15.107

: "Simply by chanting the holy name of

Kṛṣṇa

once, a person is relieved from all the reactions of a sinful life. One can complete the nine processes of devotional service simply by chanting the holy name.

: "One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [

caṇḍāla

] can be delivered.

: "By chanting the holy name of the Lord, one dissolves his entanglement in material activities. After this, one becomes very much attracted to

Kṛṣṇa

, and thus dormant love for

Kṛṣṇa

is awakened.

: "'The holy name of Lord

Kṛṣṇa

is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the

caṇḍāla

. The holy name of

Kṛṣṇa

is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with

Kṛṣṇa

. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the

puraścaryā

regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self-sufficient.'"

:

Śrī

Caitanya

Mahāprabhu

then finally advised, "One who is chanting the

Hare

Kṛṣṇa

mantra

is understood to be a

Vaiṣṇava

; therefore you should offer all respects to him."

:

Śrī

Caitanya

Mahāprabhu

then turned His attention to three persons —

Mukunda

dāsa

,

Raghunandana

and

Śrī

Narahari

— inhabitants of the place called

Khaṇḍa

.

:

Śrī

Caitanya

Mahāprabhu

, the son of mother

Śacī

, next asked

Mukunda

dāsa

, "You are the father, and your son is

Raghunandana

. Is that so?

: "Or is

Śrīla

Raghunandana

your father and you are his son? Please let Me know the facts so that My doubts will go away."

:

Mukunda

replied, "

Raghunandana

is my father, and I am his son. This is my decision.

: "All of us have attained devotion to

Kṛṣṇa

due to

Raghunandana

. Therefore in my mind he is my father."

: Hearing

Mukunda

dāsa

give this proper decision,

Śrī

Caitanya

Mahāprabhu

confirmed it, saying, "Yes, it is correct.

One who awakens devotion to

is certainly the spiritual master

."

 

Therefore I can only conclude that my spiritual master is His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Isn't it.

[suchandra 1]

When quoting this verse from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana,

 

asvamedham gavalambham sannyasam palapaitrkam

devarena sutopattim kalau panca vivarjayet

 

as evidence that the sannyasa-asrama is ineffective in Kali-yuga - one might consider if accepting a spiritual master today as "saksad hari"--directly Krishna, has not a similiar restriction in this degraded age of kali-yuga. Purport below clearly says that a spiritual master only makes sense when he is on topmost platform of pure devotional service.

 

PURPORT - Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 15.108

 

Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī explains dīkṣā in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

 

divyaḿ jñānaḿ yato dadyāt kuryāt pāpasya sańkṣayam

tasmāt dīkṣeti sā proktā deśikais tattva-kovidaiḥ

 

"Dīkṣā is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as dīkṣā." The regulative principles of dīkṣā are explained in the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa (2.3-4) and the Bhakti-sandarbha (283). As stated:

 

dvijānām anupetānāḿ svakarmādhyayanādiṣu

yathādhikāro nāstīha syāc copanayanād anu

tathātrādīkṣitānāḿ tu mantra-devārcanādiṣu

nādhikāro 'sty ataḥ kuryād ātmānaḿ śiva-saḿstutam

 

"Even though born in a brāhmaṇa family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brāhmaṇa family, one becomes a brāhmaṇa only after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brāhmaṇa, one cannot worship the holy name properly."

 

According to the Vaiṣṇava regulative principles, one must be initiated as a brāhmaṇa. The Hari-bhakti-vilāsa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Viṣṇu-yāmala:

 

adīkṣitasya vāmoru kṛtaḿ sarvaḿ nirarthakam

paśu-yonim avāpnoti dīkṣā-virahito janaḥ

 

"'Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species.'"

 

Hari-bhakti-vilāsa (2.10) further quotes:

ato guruḿ praṇamyaivaḿ sarva-svaḿ vinivedya ca

gṛhṇīyād vaiṣṇavaḿ mantraḿ dīkṣā-pūrvaḿ vidhānataḥ

 

"'It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything — body, mind and intelligence — one must take Vaiṣṇava initiation from him.'"

 

The Bhakti-sandarbha (298) gives the following quotation from the Tattva-sāgara:

 

yathā kāñcanatāḿ yāti kāḿsyaḿ rasa-vidhānataḥ

tathā dīkṣā-vidhānena dvijatvaḿ jāyate nṛṇām

 

"'By chemical manipulation, bell metal is turned into gold when touched by mercury; similarly, when a person is properly initiated, he can acquire the qualities of a brāhmaṇa.'"

 

The Hari-bhakti-vilāsa (17.11-12), in discussing the puraścaryā process, quotes the following verses from the Agastya-saḿhitā:

 

pūjā traikālikī nityaḿ japas tarpaṇam eva ca

homo brāhmaṇa-bhuktiś ca puraścaraṇam ucyate

guror labdhasya mantrasya prasādena yathā-vidhi

pañcāńgopāsanā-siddhyai puraś caitad vidhīyate

 

"'In the morning, afternoon and evening one should worship the Deity, chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, offer oblations, perform a fire sacrifice and feed the brāhmaṇas. These five activities constitute puraścaryā. To attain full success when taking initiation from the spiritual master, one should first perform these puraścaryā processes.'"

 

The word puraḥ means "before," and caryā means "activities." Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six months, a candidate for initiation must first attend ārati and classes in the śāstras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the puraścaryā-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months.

 

In the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa (17.4-5, 7) it is stated:

 

vinā yena na siddhaḥ syān mantro varṣa-śatair api

kṛtena yena labhate sādhako vāñchitaḿ phalam

puraścaraṇa-sampanno mantro hi phala-dhāyakaḥ

ataḥ puraṣkriyāḿ kuryāt mantra-vit siddhi-kańkṣayā

puraṣkriyā hi mantrāṇāḿ pradhānaḿ vīryam ucyate

vīrya-hīno yathā dehī sarva-karmasu na kṣamaḥ

puraścaraṇa-hīno hi tathā mantraḥ prakīrtitaḥ

 

"Without performing the puraścaryā activities, one cannot become perfect even by chanting this mantra for hundreds of years. But one who has undergone the puraścaryā-vidhi process can attain success very easily. If one wishes to perfect his initiation, he must first undergo the puraścaryā activities. The puraścaryā process is the life force by which one is successful in chanting the mantra. Without the life force, one cannot do anything; similarly, without the life force of puraścaryā-vidhi, no mantra can be perfected."

 

In his Bhakti-sandarbha (283-84), Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī describes the importance of Deity worship and initiation (dīkṣā) as follows:

 

āvaśyakatvaḿ nāsti, tad vināpi śaraṇāpattyādīnām ekatareṇāpi puruṣārtha-siddher abhihitatvāt, tathāpi śrī-nāradādi-vartmānusaradbhiḥ śrī-bhagavatā saha sambandha-viśeṣaḿ dīkṣā-vidhānena śrī-guru-caraṇa-sampāditaḿ cikīrṣadbhiḥ kṛtāyāḿ dīkṣāyām arcanam avaśyaḿ kriyetaiva.

 

yadyapi svarūpato nāsti, tathāpi prāyaḥ svabhāvato dehādi-sambandhena kadarya-śīlānāḿ vikṣipta-cittānāḿ janānāḿ tat-tat-sańkocī-karaṇāya śrīmad-ṛṣi-prabhṛtibhir atrārcana-mārge kvacit kvacit kācit kācin maryādā sthāpitāsti.

 

"It is Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam's opinion that the process of Deity worship is not actually necessary, just as the specific prescriptions of the Pañcarātra and other scriptures do not have to be followed. The Bhāgavatam enjoins that even without practicing Deity worship one can achieve the complete success of human life by any of the other devotional processes, such as simply offering oneself at the Lord's feet for His protection. Nonetheless, Vaiṣṇavas following the path of Śrī Nārada and his successors endeavor to establish a personal relationship with the Lord by receiving the grace of a bona fide spiritual master through initiation, and in this tradition the devotees are obliged at the time of initiation to begin engaging in Deity worship.

 

"Although Deity worship is not essential, the material conditioning of most candidates for devotional service requires that they engage in this activity. When we consider their bodily and mental conditions, we find that the character of such candidates is impure and their minds are agitated. Therefore, to rectify this material conditioning the great sage Nārada and others have at different times recommended various kinds of regulations for Deity worship."

 

Similarly, the Rāmārcana-candrikā states:

 

vinaiva dīkṣāḿ viprendra puraścaryāḿ vinaiva hi

vinaiva nyāsa-vidhinā japa-mātreṇa siddhi-dā

 

"O best of the brāhmaṇas, even without initiation, preliminary purification or acceptance of the renounced order, one can attain perfection in devotional service simply by chanting the Lord's holy name."

 

In other words, the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pañcarātra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Kṛṣṇa consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. The more one is freed from material identification, the more one can realize that the spirit soul is qualitatively as good as the Supreme Soul. At such a time, when one is situated on the absolute platform, one can understand that the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. At that stage of realization, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, cannot be identified with any material sound. If one accepts the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra as a material vibration, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. When a person who chants the holy name is liberated, he attains the ultimate perfection by returning home, back to Godhead. In the words of Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Ādi 7.73):

 

kṛṣṇa-mantra haite habe saḿsāra-mocana

kṛṣṇa-nāma haite pābe kṛṣṇera caraṇa

 

"Simply by chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord."

 

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on puraścaryā or puraścaraṇa, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on puraścaryā-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name even once without committing an offense, he attains all success. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihvā — it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization.

 

ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ

sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ

 

[bRS. 1.2.234]

 

"With the material senses one cannot understand the transcendental holy name of the Lord or His form, activities and pastimes. But when one actually engages in devotional service, utilizing the tongue, the Lord is revealed." As it is said in the Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Madhya 17.134):

 

ataeva kṛṣṇera 'nāma', 'deha', 'vilāsa',

prākṛtendriya-grāhya nahe, haya sva-prakāśa

 

"The holy name of Kṛṣṇa, His body and His pastimes cannot be understood by the blunt material senses. They are manifested independently."

[Guruvani 0]

 

Dude, I thought I said, "It definitely happens", If you read my post closely,Dude! Are you saying that I'm "clueless" about Gaudiya Siddhanta Dude, Well, Dude, I was thinking about it the whole time that I was out trick or treating, Dude.

 

I would never say you are "clueless" my friend.

Maybe clue challenged but not clueLESS.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Getting the result of chanting the Holy Names without initiation is like counting on getting an honorary degree. It definitely happens and so does winning the lottery. Best to enroll in the "university of Krsna Nama" which is the sampradaya of our guru varga and matriculate - practice sadhana and seva under their divine guidance.

The Sri Namamrita is full of quotes that never mention diksa as a preqrequisite. The issue of formal diksa is a whole thread in itself. I haven't seen to much success from it.

[cbrahma 0]

"The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there." (SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 19/8/68)

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

It's my understanding that, in some places, one can become an attorney by studying independently and then passing the bar exam.

 

Does that mean that, if one wishes to become an attorney, one should follow that approach rather than enrolling at an accredited law school?

[cbrahma 0]

 

It's my understanding that, in some places, one can become an attorney by studying independently and then passing the bar exam.

 

Does that mean that, if one wishes to become an attorney, one should follow that approach rather than enrolling at an accredited law school?

If you can find an accredited law school. The analogy of course fails in the extent that bhakti is not the direct result of an examination but of Krsna's mercy.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

 

If you can find an accredited law school. The analogy of course fails in the extent that bhakti is not the direct result of an examination but of Krsna's mercy.

I've never taken the Bar exam, but I presume it is not multiple choice. Consequently, to some degree, admission to the Bar is contingent upon the mercy of the Bar (at least in grading the exam).

 

If one can't find an accredited law school then maybe it's time to go back to kindergarten.

[cbrahma 0]

 

I've never taken the Bar exam, but I presume it is not multiple choice. Consequently, to some degree, admission to the Bar is contingent upon the mercy of the Bar (at least in grading the exam).

 

If one can't find an accredited law school then maybe it's time to go back to kindergarten.

" the mercy of the Bar " - hardly the kind of mercy needed to get bhakti.

 

hmmm -- it's a performance test - then where's the mercy?

"If one can't find an accredited law school"

The analogy is really limping at this point.

Maybe it's time to accept the assurances of the informal path which dispenses with the 'training' analogy- so well documented in fact.

[Murali_Mohan_das 0]

Aaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmm!

 

 

" the mercy of the Bar " - hardly the kind of mercy needed to get bhakti.

 

hmmm -- it's a performance test - then where's the mercy?

"If one can't find an accredited law school"

The analogy is really limping at this point.

Maybe it's time to accept the assurances of the informal path which dispenses with the 'training' analogy- so well documented in fact.

[Kulapavana 0]

Does Initiation Make the Maha-Mantra Work?

 

Maha mantra is not really a mantra received through initiation. This mantra is freely available to anyone, without any restriction. However, this is not so with the diksa-mantras (Gayatri mantras) which can only be effective when received from a sampradaya guru through initiation. The concept of harinama initiation was introduced only quite recently, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta if I'm not mistaken.

[cbrahma 0]

 

Does Initiation Make the Maha-Mantra Work?

 

Maha mantra is not really a mantra received through initiation. This mantra is freely available to anyone, without any restriction. However, this is not so with the diksa-mantras (Gayatri mantras) which can only be effective when received from a sampradaya guru through initiation. The concept of harinama initiation was introduced only quite recently, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta if I'm not mistaken.

"The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation. And as you are all following my instruction, in that matter, the initiator is already there." (SP Letter to Tamal Krsna, 19/8/68)

[Guruvani 0]

Diksha is generally accepted to be the savitra-samskara known in ISKCON as brahman initiation.

Hari-nama initiation is not really diksha.

Hari-nama can be very informal.

Getting the Holy Name from any Vaishnava is an informal initiation into Hari-nama.

It doesn't have to be all formal for Hari-nama to be effective.

The main thing is to get the mantra from the lips of a Vaishnava connected to the sampradaya and the Sankirtan movement.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains something usefull in this purport:

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8.128

 

 

Sometimes a Vaiṣṇava who is a bhajanānandī does not take the sāvitra-saḿskāra (sacred thread initiation), but this does not mean that this system should be used for preaching work.

 

Traditionally, this brahman initiation was not really practiced in the Gaudiya sampradaya. It was mainly popularized by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.

There were precedents to this practice in some families and parivars in Bengal as Srila Prabhupada mentions in CC.

But, it was never offered to westerners before the Saraswata parivar began the practice.

[Alex J 0]

Dear Prabhus,

When I saw the title of this topic, I was reminded me of an excerpt attributed to Bhanu Swami, which I found not too long ago on a sub-page of the veda.harekrsna.cz website, and which I found interesting:

"Gangamata Goswamini didn't perform yajna. No one in Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya did yajna for initiations.They just gave out mantras without much fanfare. There is pancaratric ceremony including yajna for Vaisnava initiation, but the origins of the yajna we perform seem to come solely from the custom set up by Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati to give upanayanam Vedic samskara after giving Vaisnava mantras."

Sincerely,

Alex

[Kulapavana 0]

 

"The chanting of Hare Krsna is our main business, that is real initiation.

 

So I guess I was actually initiated by a devotee who was leading the first kirtan I took part in, yes?

 

Hari nama initiation ceremony is a nice way to formalize our entry into the Krsna consciousness movement, but it is not the initiation, or diksa, our shastras speak of.

[mahak 0]

Yes, you were initiated by the devotee LEADING the first kirtana you attended. No that wasnt alan ginzburgh, Ramm Dass or Quicksilver Messenger Service. The leader of that Kirtana was Lord Nityananda Prabhu. Kirtana takes place at His leadership, authority of the Holy Name is in His Hands.

 

Then He also caused one to find out more about the wonders of Samkirtana, and next thing you knew, you were eating good food talking to a way cool person.

 

Initiation means first, initial. Lord Nityananda is the one in the heart of all beings who opens such a door, if one wants such a thing as a door.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Kulapavana 0]

 

Initiation means first, initial. Lord Nityananda is the one in the heart of all beings who opens such a door, if one wants such a thing as a door.

 

That is pretty much what I always thought: The initiation comes from God, and it can take many forms, and many physical agents of administration. Yet it is always truly dependent on the Lord alone. Thus the initiation is valid when it actually happens, and not when the initiatin agent is of this or that standard.

 

The re-initiation business going on in various parts of the Gaudiya community simply serves to obscure the real tattva of the initiation process and has a lot more to do with the false egos than the real subsatance.

[theist 1]

 

Yes, you were initiated by the devotee LEADING the first kirtana you attended. No that wasnt alan ginzburgh, Ramm Dass or Quicksilver Messenger Service. The leader of that Kirtana was Lord Nityananda Prabhu. Kirtana takes place at His leadership, authority of the Holy Name is in His Hands.

 

Then He also caused one to find out more about the wonders of Samkirtana, and next thing you knew, you were eating good food talking to a way cool person.

 

Initiation means first, initial. Lord Nityananda is the one in the heart of all beings who opens such a door, if one wants such a thing as a door.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

I like this answer. And the initiation into that name may be in shadow form as we experience it but the potency is there immediately to raise us up to the pure name if we are so willing.

 

Then again hearing a suddha bhakta chanting suddha nama is on a level of it's own. It seems that can be viewed as another and higher level of the PROCESS of initiation which we experience on the path to yet another level where we hear the maha mantra from a suddha bhakta in full recognition of what is suddha nama because our ears have finally become purified.

 

Then we can look at this pure stage as both a final culmination of the intiation process that began when we first heard that kirtan and it can also be seen as finally having been initiated n the true sense of the word into the transcendental world where a whole eternity of transcendental experiences lay ahead.

 

This full sense initiation or birth into spiritual life is simulataneously the death of the last vesitige of mundane consciousness.

 

"Must die to live.Ye must be born again of the Holy Spirit"

 

So in this sense I agree intiation into the Holy name is absolutely essential.

[Alex J 0]

Dear Prabhus,

 

I appreciate how theist and Kulapavana Prabhus referred to initiation as a process in their posts. I've written/compiled something inspired by this discussion. It's turned out to be longer than I had anticipated. It's pretty darn long, but it feels good to put it all down in writing.

 

As I read theist Prabhu's post, I thought of another excerpt that I've read on a sub page of the veda.harekrsna.cz website, this one was from Ekanatha Prabhu:

 

"

Jiva Gosvami quotes one verse from the Agamas (Visnu-yamala) in anuccheda 283 of the Bhakti-sandarbha. There it is stated that diksa means that one receives 'divya-jnana' from the guru and that this 'divya-jnana' destroys the seeds of one's sinful desires. But this is really all. He doesn't say that this must be done by some formality. In other words, we may also conclude that a person who hears divya-jnana, and whose doubts and sinful desires are consequently destroyed, must thus be considered initiated.

"

 

 

This quote in turn reminds me of something written by Audarya-lila Prabhu, which I read for the first time on the Audarya Fellowship forum around September of 2006:

 

"

Diksha is a two way affair - a relationship. It is not a one time thing where one recieves a mantra and then it's done. We develop gradually in our spiritual lives. As I understand it - the process goes on forever, but in terms of being 'complete' - when one reaches to the stage of bhava then real spiritual life begins to dawn. Until such time there will be many ups and downs, trials and tribulations - but when one is fixed -nistha - then some genuine taste (bhava) begins to arise in the sadhaka.

"

Sri Guru is there throughout the development of the sadhaka to guide and help the disciple progress. Sridhara Maharaja has spoken in another way about spiritual life - he said 'we are all students forever. Since diksha is the transmission of divya jnana, or realized knowledge - and that is constantly unfolding - one could say that Diksha continues on forever.

"

 

 

In light of the above quotes, I'm intrigued by a number of statements from Srila Prabhupada, where he seems to be speaking about diksa in relation to "divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa".

 

"

Diksa means... Di, divya-jnanam, transcendental knowledge, and ksa, iksa. Iksa means darsana, to see, or ksapayati, explain. That is called diksa.

" (Srila Prabhupada, lecture, July 29^th, 1968)

"

Diksa means initiation. Di means divya jnanam, and ksa means ksapayati. From the day of initiation, you simply get spiritual knowledge, transcendental knowledge.

" (Srila Prabhupada, lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.1, in Los Angeles, on December 29^th, 1973)

"

Then you can say 'Yes, I know everything' Diksa. Diksa, initiation, diksa, this Sanskrit word, diksa, means divya-jnanam ksapayati ask from spiritual master with service and surrender the transcendental knowledge. The more you ask, you become a man of knowledge. Then you can challenge, and then 'Yes, I know everything'.

" (Srila Prabhupada, Morning Walk 11^th June 1974)

"

So initiation means, the Sanskrit word is diksa. Diksa, divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa. Divya-jnana.

" (Srila Prabhupada, initiation lecture, June 17^th, 1976)

"

Diksa means divya-jnanam ksapayati iti diksa. Which explains the divya-jnana, transcendental, that is diksa. Di, divya, diksanam. diksa. So divya-jnana, transcendental knowledge...

" (Srila Prabhupada, room conversation, January 27^th, 1977, in Bhubaneswar)

 

 

There are also statements from Srila Prabhupada where the expression "divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa" itself is not used, but where the English words seem to me to point to that general theme:

 

"

Diksa actually means initiating a disciple with transcendental knowledge by which he becomes freed from all material contamination.

" (Srila Prabhupada, purport to Sri Caitanya Caritamrta (CC), Madhya-lila, 4.111)

"

This is the purpose of diksa, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness.

" (Srila Prabhupada, purport to CC Madhya-lila 9.61)

"

Another point is that disciplic succession does not mean one has to be directly a disciple of a particular person. The conclusions which we have tried to explain in our Bhagavad-gita are the same as those conclusions of Arjuna. Arjuna accepted Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and we also accept the same truth under the disciplic succession of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Things equal to the same thing are equal to one another. This is an axiomatic truth...

" (Srila Prabhupada letter to Kirtanananda, January 25^th, 1969)

"

Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic conclusion.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Dinesh, October 31^st, 1969)

"

That is your consideration. You have to decide for yourself whether you are going to take this Krsna consciousness seriously. That is your decision. Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. If you have understood this Krsna philosophy and if you have decided that you will take Krsna consciousness seriously and preach the philosophy to others, that is your initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination. That is initiation.

" (Srila Prabhupada, "Search for the Divine", in Back to Godhead magazine, 1970, Volume 1, No. 49)

"

From 1922 to 1933 practically I was not initiated, but I got the impression of preaching Caitanya Mahaprabhu's cult. That I was thinking. And that was the initiation by my Guru Maharaja. Then officially I was initiated in 1933...

" (Srila Prabhupada, Lecture in Hyderabad, December 10^th, 1970)

"

That there have been no newly initiated devotees from Japan is all right. It doesn't matter whether they are initiated or not. If they are coming in large number, that is the success of our mission. We are not after making initiated members very many but our concern is that people understand this philosophy in wider circles. Initiated members are for managing the temples and preaching work, but our program is to invite people to our feasts, let them hear our philosophy and dance and chant. That is the basic principle of our philosophy in preaching work.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Sudama, April 11th, 1971)

"

The eternal bond between disciple and spiritual master begins from the first day he hears. just like my Spiritual Master. In 1922 he said in our first meeting, 'You are educated boys, why don't you preach this cult.' That was the beginning, now it is coming to fact. Therefore the relationship began from that day.

" (Srila Prabhupada, letter to Mother Jadurani, September 4^th, 1972)

"

Well initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge... knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

" (Srila Prabhupada, Press Interview, Chandigarh, October 16^th, 1976)

 

 

I find these kinds of statements from Srila Prabhupada fascinating and attractive. I appreciate the following statement from Srila Prabhupda's purport to CC Madhya-lila 15.111, where he seems to me to be differentiating between the formalities of the initiation ceremony, and the actual internal state of the person:

 

"

Whether a Vaisnava is properly initiated or not is not a subject for consideration. One may be initiated and yet contaminated by the Mayavada philosophy, but a person who chants the holy name of the Lord offenselessly will not be so contaminated. A properly initiated Vaisnava may be imperfect, but one who chants the holy name of the Lord offenselessly is all-perfect.

"

 

 

I like the depth that I feel in these kinds of statements. There's also this statement that I appreciate, from Vaikunthanatha dasa Prabhu, from the "Memories of Srila Prabhupada" video series:

 

"

. . . There was one doubt that was plaguing me . . .I had always been taught when I was first joining that the parampara is like a link, a chain. If you don't have the perfect link, if you are not initiated- You really cannot go back to Godhead . . . I presented this question to Prabhupada. I followed Srila Prabhupada from Rupa Gosvami’s Samadhi back into the courtyard, and just before Srila Prabhupada took the steps, in the courtyard, I said ‘We are distributing so many books but if people who read them aren't initiated then they can't go back to Godhead.’ And Prabhupada turned and looked at me right in the eyes and he said ’Just by reading my books they are initiated’

"

 

 

I remember devotees often telling me that "devotional service begins with hearing". This certainly makes sense to me in light of "divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa". If initiation, or diksa, is really a process. If that process is, at essence, a transfer of transcendental knowledge from the teacher to the heart of the student, where that knowledge eventually takes root in the heart of the soul, and begins to effect change. Divya jnana hrde prokoshito. Then it makes sense to me that hearing would be central and foundational to devotional service.

I remember sitting in a room in the Philly ISKCON temple, some years ago. I think it was around the time of a Vyasa-Puja celebration for Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu. There was a meeting of people who considered themselves disciples, followers and friends of Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu. The topic was something like "What are the qualifications of a disciple?"

I remember sitting there, and Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu was reading from the compilation book "The Spiritual Master and the Disciple", which is basically a collection of statements from Srila Prabhupada. The quote that Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu chose to read, in response to the question asking about the qualifications of a disciple, was something like "A disciple should be eager to hear from the spiritual master". I'm paraphrasing.

Anyway, as I remember that experience, I also think about the following quote from Srila Prabhupada, from the previously mentioned lecture in Hyderabad, from December 10^th, 1970:

 

"

And in 1933 I was officially initiated, and my only qualification was when I was introduced to my Guru Maharaja for initiation, so Guru Maharaja immediately said, 'Yes, I shall initiate this boy. He is very nice. He hears me very patiently. He does not go away.' So that was my qualification. The high standard of philosophy which he was speaking at that time, practically I could not follow what was, he was speaking, but still, I liked to hear him. That was my hobby. Whenever... I was asking that 'When Guru Maharaja will speak?' So he took it very seriously.

"

 

 

Again, in light of "divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa", the above statement seems to make sense to me.

Getting back to Ekanatha Prabhu's quote at the beginning of this post, in the purport to CC Madhya-lila 15.108 Srila Prabhupada mentions a text from Srila Jiva Goswami's Bhakti-sandarbha:

 

 

divyam jnanam yato dadyat / kuryat papasya sanksayam / tasmad dikseti sa prokta / desikais tattva-kovidaih

 

 

In the purport to CC Madhya-lila 15.108, the Sanskrit is followed by a sentence in quotes, which I assume to be a translation of the Sanskrit text:

 

"

Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa.

"

 

 

The above Sanskrit text is identified in the purport to Madhya-lila 15.108 as being from Bhakti-sandharba 283. The same text is also quoted by Srila Prabhupada in the purport to Nectar of Instruction (NOI), verse 5.

 

In the NOI purport, the verse is identified as being from Bhakti-sandharba 868. Based on at least one thing that I've read, the Bhakti-sandharba has 340 "anuchedas", which I assume is another words for "verses". So I'm assuming that the above-quoted Sanskrit text is from the 283^rd annucheda, rather than the 868^th. Perhaps this is an editing error in the NOI. Perhaps there's some other explanation.

In Srila Prabhupada's purport to NOI 5, the Sanskrit verse from Bhakti-sandharba is also followed by a sentence in quotes, which I assume to be an alternate translation of the same Sanskrit verse:

 

"

By diksa one gradually becomes disinterested in material enjoyment and gradually becomes interested in spiritual life.

"

 

 

Again, this makes most sense to me in terms of diksa as a process, along the lines of "divya jnanam ksapayati iti diksa"

 

Below I'd like to share an excerpt from an article by Gaura Kesava Prabhu, which I read a while back in the Sampradaya Sun, entitled "Guru Ashraya":

 

"

The word re-initiation does not occur in sanskrit or even in bengali. Where this term comes from should be stated before using it to describe any philosophical idea. The concept of a word for re-initiation is illogical, for obviously if one is properly initiated then there is no question of re-initiation, and if one is not properly initiated then he is not initiated at all. So where is the question of re-initiation? No, there is only the question of proper and improper initiation. Just as Prabhupada has said that there is no such thing as 'bogus' guru, the word guru implies bona fide, similarly the word initiation implies bona fide.

"

 

 

I appreciate the above excerpt. As I read it, I'm reminded of "cakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei, divya-jnan hrde prokasito". If someone's eyes are opened by the spiritual master, and if that person's heart is being filled with transcendental knowledge, they are initiated. Are they not? Does such an initiate need to have their eyes "re-opened", if their eyes are currently open, or opening? Does a heart, which the spiritual master is filling with transcendental knowledge, need to be re-filled by someone else? Divya jnana ksapayati iti diksa.

Gaura Kesava Prabhu writes: "if one is not properly initiated then he is not initiated at all". It may be fair to say that at least some people who are "initiated" are never actually initiated, and some people who are never "initiated", are. Gaura Kesava Prabhu's comment reminds me of an email that I got from Dhira Govinda Prabhu on March 5^th, 2005, where he writes:

 

"

For example, Srila Prabhupada was 'initiated' before receiving formal initiation from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Srila Prabhupada, when he was young, was formally initiated by some family priest. Clearly he didn't consider this to be a 'real' initiation in the sense of connection with the transcendental parampara. So, he wasn't 'reinitiated' by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta.

"

 

 

Gaura Kesava Prabhu states: "So where is the question of re-initiation? No, there is only the question of proper and improper initiation."

 

Some questions arise inside me, as I read this next excerpt from Gaura Kesava Prabhu's "Guru Ashraya":

 

The word diksha is a compound word in sanskrit and is derived from the two words 'diyate' the verb 'to give' and 'kshiyate' the verb 'to destroy'. The following sloka describes the meanings of these two words in the context of diksha.

 

diyate muktiranaya / kshiyate carsya patakam / diyate kshiyate tasmat / sa dikshetya vidhiyate

 

"Diyate (to give) indicates the giving of liberation, kshiyate (to destroy) indicates the destruction of sins thus these two words come together in the word diksha to mean that process by which sins are destroyed and liberation is given": Pancaratra Aniruddha Samhita 4.4

 

 

I appreciate that Gaura Kesava Prabhu shares this verse, and analysis of the word "diksa". It makes sense. On the other hand, does Srila Prabhupada, when discussing diksa, ever correlate the syllable "di" with the word "diyate", and the syllable "ksha" with the word "kshiyate"? Perhaps Srila Prabhupada does. I have not yet found such a reference. I don't have a Vedabase, but I would be interested to find one or more such references, if they exist.

So far, I've only found examples where Srila Prabhupada seems to equate "di" with "divya jnana", "ksha" with "ksapayati", and "iksha" with "darsana".

This would seem to me to relate back to the expression "divya jnana ksapayati iti diksa". If Srila Prabhupada is indeed repeatedly focusing on one particular way of talking about these two syllables, which make up the word "diksa", as opposed to focusing on another way of talking about those syllables, is that significant? Is there a reason for Srila Prabhupada's apparently focusing on "divya jnana" and "ksapayati", rather than "diyate" and "kshiyate", when talking about the syllables "di" and "ksha" of the word "diksa"?

One of my my assumptions is that Srila Prabhupada understands sastra, and knows how to explain it. If Srila Prabhupada appears to focus on a particular way of looking at the syllables "di" and "ksha", as opposed to another way of looking at then, even though that other way may also be valid and rooted in sastra, perhaps this is significant. Perhaps when Srila Prabhupada seems to be repeatedly making these correlations, he is doing so with clear intent, and for our benefit.

 

Below is another excerpt from Gaura Kesava Prabhu's article, which I appreciate:

 

"

...we understand that initiation is the process of giving transcendental knowledge to a person, by the understanding of which, he becomes purified from his previous bad habits and becomes a Vaisnava. The example is also given by Srila Prabhupada of pulling the plug of an electric fan, which causes the fan to slow down and finally stop.

"

 

 

Thank you very much for reading what I wanted to share on this topic. Hare Krsna.

 

Sincerely,

Alex

[Guruvani 0]

Here is a very instructive narration from the pastimes of Mahaprabhu that exemplify how simple and practical initiation into Hari-nama can be.

Please note that Srila Prabhupada refers to the chanting of Hare Krishna into the ears of the Buddhist spiritual master by HIS DISCIPLES after hearing instructions from Mahaprabhu as INITIATION.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 9.61

 

guru-karṇe kahe sabe 'kṛṣṇa' 'rāma' 'hari'

cetana pāñā ācārya bale 'hari' 'hari'

 

 

SYNONYMS

guru-karṇe — into the ear of the spiritual master; kahe — they said; sabe — all together; kṛṣṇa rāma hari — the holy names of the Lord, namely "Kṛṣṇa,Rāma" and "Hari"; cetana — consciousness; pāñā — getting; ācārya — the teacher; bale — chanted; hari hari — the name of Lord Hari.

 

 

TRANSLATION

When all the disciples chanted the holy names Kṛṣṇa, Rāma and Hari, the Buddhist teacher regained consciousness and immediately began to chant the holy name of Lord Hari.

 

 

PURPORT

Śrī Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura comments that all the Buddhist disciples were actually initiated by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu into the chanting of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, and when they chanted, they actually became different persons. At that time they were not Buddhists or atheists but Vaiṣṇavas. Consequently they immediately accepted Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu's order. Their original Kṛṣṇa consciousness was revived, and they were immediately able to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and begin worshiping the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu.

It is the spiritual master who delivers the disciple from the clutches of māyā by initiating him into the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. In this way a sleeping human being can revive his consciousness by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. In other words, the spiritual master awakens the sleeping living entity to his original consciousness so that he can worship Lord Viṣṇu. This is the purpose of dīkṣā, or initiation. Initiation means receiving the pure knowledge of spiritual consciousness.

One point to note in this regard is that the spiritual master of the Buddhists did not initiate his disciples. Rather, his disciples were initiated by Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and they in turn were able to initiate their so-called spiritual master. This is the paramparā system. The so-called spiritual master of the Buddhists was actually in the position of a disciple, and after his disciples were initiated by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they acted as his spiritual masters. This was possible only because the disciples of the Buddhist ācārya received the mercy of Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Unless one is favored by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu in the disciplic succession, one cannot act as a spiritual master. We should take the instructions of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, the spiritual master of the whole universe, to understand how one becomes a spiritual master and a disciple.

 

 

 

This example is really what the Sankirtan movement is all about.

It is very simple, sublime and effective.

[theist 1]

Thanks for the nice post and compilitions of quotes Alex. We hear the word initiation and diksa used in various ways with the maha mantra getting ixed up with some gayatri mantra. My mind has been so much more peaceful since I decided that only one defintion of diksa would have any relevance for me and that is the one given by Jiva Gosvami and often quoted by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Hare Krsna