bhaktajan

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Sucandra, kulapavana says, you are "Wrong again" Ha HA Ha! --- WARNING to all other readers: You cannot immitate the Mood of Kula & sucandra! You would be a pretender if you tried. But this is a worthy goal to seek-out! Old life in Iskcon for those fortunate few in its foundling years, --have all had these types of fraternal exchanges. Sucandra & Kulapavana are both playing out long withheld utterances, some petty and some more or less sublime and some just in passing --but here it is with faux sparks.

The Creation is a result/the cause of "Duality". At what point in the study of the Vedas does Duality become irrelevant? Never!!! There is PURUSHA & PRAKRITI. I do NOT see a contradiction [i presume that Devi-purana is written by Vedvyasa --so it is injuxiposition to vedic injunctions elsewhere --not in contradiction to.] Sri Devi is feminine and Sri Purusha is masculine. They cannot be seperated. Parkriti (energy) is feminine & Purusha (energetic) is Masculine. Parkriti is enjoyed & Purusha is the enjoyer. God is the first Purusha (energetic-source) and the enjoyed energy (eminating energy) is what He enjoys. If Krishna is a manifestaion of Para-Prakriti, so be it. So what? In Goloka one can find Krishna's Father, mother, grandmother etc --all in injuxiposition & in their alloted positions acting on cue when the orchestra kicks-up the band.

This what I learnt when I was Young: Vedas = Knowledge. Knowledge = ability to descriminate between subtle differences, ie: the ability to descriminate between butter vs cream vs cheese vs milk vs ice-cream vs yogurt. IOW to descern the relative differences of all things and 'know the difference'.

Let's be honest, can anyone say in full faith(hand on the Gita): "Yes, I am aspiring to become a bonafide spiritual master, I am making my heartfelt, hardest and best endevour, so that I can propagate Srila Prabhupada's family one day." [. . . Actually WE ALL ARE --weather we like it or not . . . most times, we find that we are witness to our Maha-Bhagavata's teachings as played out by History and the litany of World-stage Characters, all frutively heading into the jaws of Time & Destiny quicker than we can respond. We protect the sovreignty of our local Temples, so as NOT to draw unwanted attention to them, thus keeping various sorts of crazys at bay. Our Hands are tied, while we maintain our own stance in society --yet time passes. We slowly garner "proofs" to later draw-upon to debate newbee mayavadis --all in anticipation of being stewards of Gurukulas or Nanny's to aristocratic families.] The un-expected cute-ness is that there will be a new wave of interest and thus WE will be thrust upon with unlimited requests to supply: Gurukul trained students/Retirement room & board/Leadership training to Retired Generals & diplomats/Musical Inspiration via our best of the best Bhajan singers/Cooking Lessons/Architectural City Planning/Farming & Natural Resources Management/Death Samskaras, and maybe, just maybe astrology insights.

Xochitl, Yes, I agree with you prabhu too. Your description is quite good, concise, complete and addresses the topic in all it's variations. Sucandra's "sentiment" is an old left-over reaction to Iskcon-proper. In the formative years SP only got to visit YOUR LOCAL Temple ocassionaly, while he traveled to establish Iskcon Temples in far flung locales. The feeling of seperation --or more to the point, the IDEAL senario of sitting at one's guru's feet was nearly imposible to do with SP's schedule. So after his departure--our young Novice-like first-comers made a show of advancement for newer arrivals, only to renig on their lofty duties due to worldly mindedness. Those who left to stay at the feet of other Vaishnava Babajis cannot be faulted --their story(s) also, are too intense a path for mere mortals such as our selves [unless you are impelled to act as such on one's own volition], too intense a path for those not made of the 'RIGHT-STUFF'. ISKCON teaches how to recognise the Bogus versus the Genuine as-it-is. And ISKCON has always been too exclusive for common proliferation of their own message --yet the term "WEED-OUT" was always bandied about from the start along with the concept of a "devotional creeper [ivy-like Vine]" that must be cultivated on one's own accord [every man for himself] LEST, we would be lost like a "Riven cloud". As in any expertise --it must be recieved by a master/Pro/Instructor that went before us. The ideal is that Initiation (diksha) is a formality --where as the compulsatory injuction is to take instruction from a bonefide instructor (shiksha).

"Thus, in the Satya Yuga, . . . O King! For this reason, in the Satya Yuga," Which Satya-yuga? There are 71 that pass for each of the 14 Manus. There are other eras of 14 Manus [a waking-Day of Lord Brahma]. Lord Brahma has passed approx 50 years. {50 years x 365 Days/year x 14 Manus per day of Brahma = 255,500 Satya yuga epochs have transpired --- are you looking for something absolute or not?}

Secrets of Hare Krishna/Bhagavad-gita/Hindu spirituality: The 1st Lesson to learn is: "We are not this body we are spirit soul" ergo, Jesus [can still grant so-called diksa] --because the lesson was meant according to time and place and level of the populace's intelligence and culture: The lesson "Jesus rose from the dead" --this is easily understood by the commoner and also, the political/social/spiritual ramifications establish the principles of Individual Liberty as divinely bestowed as a fact of life. ergo, The 1st Lesson is learnt: "We are not this body we are spirit soul" <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

If you view video of Srila Prabhupada --during very formal 'interviews' by prersons seeking to form a Newspaper or TV article: Prabhupada was stand-offish and unhesitatingly 'in-your face'. IE: "Christianity" -- 'Let them first follow the commandment, "Thou shall not kill"'. "Women's liberation" --'None the less the woman seeks/needs a man's acknowledgement'. "Religious duty" --'Without God you are an animal'. "Politics" --'Rascal lead by rascals' "Hindu Swamis of Non-Vaishnava faith" --'That's OK as long as they stoop being lieing rascals'. "Western Industry" --'hell bound foolish workers incurring ugra-karma enmass'. "Fallen disciples"--'par for the course --I'll be happy to make one good Brahmana'. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Book/Video Idea: Collect and create an anthology of moments of A.C. Bhaktivedanta's Smiling/Happy moments --if it can make a Maha-Bhagavata laugh in glee, there must be some exquist [irony?] logic there.

oh sambya, sambya --such impudent thuggish unabashed doltish logic . . . "im saying this once more that there is nothing absolute in this world except god ." ???? --My presumption is that I should pray hard and hope to understand you!!!! Your marrage metaphors are down right false. Such social morals are universal and ammended ONLY when best, under dire circumstances. The Rod of chasticement IS BEST [for all concerned citizens] when it's stewardship is helmed by Honest Men. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Classical writs are re-confirmed by succeeding generations. vs. New & Improved methods/ideas of Collective-Interests. The American Civil war between the Northern Union versus the Southern-Conferaracy proved that hugh Collective-Interests were immoral in the minds of learned gentlemen. To spare or not to spare depends on the Leader's Foresight. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Sambya, The Collective-Interests of our mutual forum readers in certainly 'put-off' by your bizarre choice of avatara [obviously you want to purposely be a bizarre provocature even before making your usual spuriuos, specious, contrarian test of patience that you impose on readers of your improvised self-manifest indecisive diatribes]

1] WHO IS DEVI? [iMO~per my own latest studies]: 'Then the Supreme Lord woke up and saw the dead demon before Him, as well as the maiden bowing down to him with joined palms. His face expressing His astonishment, the Lord of the universe said, "Who has killed this vicious demon? He easily defeated all the demigods, Gandharvas, and even Indra himself, along with Indra's companions, the Maruts, and he also defeated the Nagas (snakes), the rulers of the lower planets. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> He even defeated Me, making Me hide in this cave out of fear. Who is it that has so mercifully protected Me after I ran from the battlefield and went to sleep in this cave?" <o:p></o:p> "'The maiden said, "It is I who have killed this demon after appearing from Your transcendental body. Indeed, O Lord Hari, when he saw You sleeping he wanted to kill You. Understanding the intention of this thorn in the side of the three worlds, I killed the evil rascal and this freed all the demigods from fear. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I am Your great maha-sakti, Your internal potency, who strikes fear into the hearts of all Your enemies. I have killed this universally terrifying demon to protect the three worlds. Please tell me why You are surprised to see that this demon has been killed, O Lord." <o:p></o:p> "'The Supreme Personality of Godhead said, "O sinless one, I am very satisfied to see that it is you who have killed this king of the demons. In this way you have made the demigods happy, prosperous, and full of bliss. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Because you have given pleasure to all the demigods in the three worlds, I am very pleased with you. Ask any boon you may desire, O auspicious one. I will give it to you without a doubt, though it be very rare among the demigods." <o:p></o:p> 2] The Bliss of brahman that a neophyte may have an enthralling fleeting glimpse or a common person may call "Happy Halmark Moments//A Sense of Accomplishment" or a devotee in samadhi may feel continuously is actually a state of 'self-satisfaction' [atma-rama] --these are all accomplished the same way [each with different POVs]: via KNOWLEDGE & DETACHMENT. 3] There are no conflicts or contradictions. It's HISTORY! Puranas are historical records of Lord Brahma's progeny --whose superlative FAME lights the way to people/Time/Places/Events that are of great sentimental value to those in the stories themselves especially those still alive and those who descend from them and their relatives --all among the Devalokas. And we are privy to it --thus it shines light down from it's own recitation [brahma-sabda] --an thus of great personal ______*_______ value. [* Spiritual/scientific/societal/Transcendental/miserly --you can choose what 'to value'!)] Seeming contradictions are due to time and circumstance of the occurance [in contrast to earlier vs later events]--thus the GREAT PERSONALITY in a particular story, by observance of proper protocol, will be address as Maharaja, Bhagavan, Ishvara, Sahib, tsar, Il Capo, Chief, 4-Star General, Airport Sercurity, Boss . . . Pati, Maharani, --all inorder to get MY WAY done as I desire. 4] "Causeless Mercy". I got causeless Mercy. All the types of 'transcendentalists' ie, Jnani's & Yogis & Bhaktas got their causeless mercy. Without it we'd be scavaging for food and shelter in the water, ground, leaves, tree bark, or soaring above the Tree Canopys or subway tunnels. Causeless mercy means that we make plans/God laughs, we pay taxes, accrue new karma and yet "satisfaction of the self is SOMEHOW acheived". You choose, if you can: No "Causeless Mercy". Smallest of all "Causeless Mercy". Smallest "Causeless Mercy". Very Small "Causeless Mercy". Small "Causeless Mercy". Some "Causeless Mercy". Average "Causeless Mercy". Best "Causeless Mercy". Better "Causeless Mercy". Big "Causeless Mercy". Best "Causeless Mercy". Confidential "Causeless Mercy". More-Confidential "Causeless Mercy". Most "Causeless Mercy". If you want it baby. 5] Yes I agree with you that the Shivites etc are actually 'covered-impersonalists' where 'brahman' is their goal and the Deity is a piece of paraphenalia to facilitate . . . ultimately a show of their personal piety.

1] The Translator's translation skills/acumen/extent of knowledge/seniority are of utmost importance. Remember: Prabhupada's bestowed title upon acceptance of sannyas is: BHAKTI-VEDA-ANTA (ie: scholar of vedanta per bhakti) 2] Each Deva is a superintendant of a different department of the unversal managment [vs. sporting neer-do-wells living on Papah's trust-account monies]. Thus, the toys in the kids room belongs wholey to a child; The flat belongs lawfully to the tenent; The Residential Building belongs to the landlord's deed; the council district is overseen by the local constabulary; the city by the mayor; the county by the Executive Minister; the state-pradesh by the MP Minister; The country by the prime minister; the empire by the emperor etc and similarly upto the silverware polishers in Lord Brahma's Kitchen help. 3] In the Bhagavatam there are a minimum of 564 Shlokas that enumerate a family tree of Lord Brahma's descendents & thus the pajapatis starting approx 50 years ago [in Brahma's years~115 Trillion years BCE] upto the current day of Brahma/the current Manu/the current Caturyuga past The days of the Krishna & the Pandavas and last maharajas [11tgh century] and then ahead to the next 7 Manus ending with the end of this current day of Brahmaji.

My speculation of the 'Shakt' question is thus: Bhaktajan sought to show that “Devi’s” existence required finding an appropriate Husband. For example, 1] Krishna's 'internal-pleasure potentcy' is considered feminine (the energy) and, Krishna is considered mascaline (the energetic). Krishna's 'internal-pleasure potentcy' could stay in a nidra-Narayana (Mahavishnu's sleep) state until the creative-potency stirs -- thus, necessitating the Masculine Feature of the Purusha (Persona) to consort with. IOW Hara awoke, thus, causing Adi-Purusha to sporting pastimes. 2] If Durga exists then it is required to find the best suited husband . . . Voila! --and who do you think that would be? <!-- / message -->

"'"Mura's great capital city is Chandravati. From that base the terribly evil and powerful Mura demon has conquered the whole world and brought all the demigods under his control, driving them out of their heavenly kingdom. He has assumed the roles of Indra, the king of heaven; Agni, the fire-god; Yama, the lord of death; Vayu, the wind-god; Isha, or Lord Shiva; Soma, the moon-god; Nairrti, the lord of the directions; and Pasi, or Varuna, the water-god. He has also begun emanating light in the role of the sun-god and has turned himself into the clouds as well. It is impossible for the demigods to defeat him. O Lord Vishnu, please kill tis demon and make the demigods victorious." <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> "'Hearing these words from Indra, Lord Janardana became very angry and said, "O powerful demigods, all together you may now advance on Mura's capital city of Chandravati." Encouraged thus, the assembled demigods proceeded to Chandravati with Lord Hari leading the way. <o:p></o:p> "'When Mura saw the demigods, that foremost of demons started roaring very loudly in the company of countless thousands of other demons, who were all holding brilliantly shining weapons. The mighty-armed demons struck the demigods, who began abandoning the battlefield and fleeing in the ten directions. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Seeing the Supreme Lord Hrsikesha, the master of the senses, present on the battlefield, the furious demons rushed toward Him with various weapons in their hands. As they charged the Lord, who holds a sword, disk, and club, He immediately pierced all their limbs with His sharp, poisonous arrows. thus many hundred of demons died by the Lord's hand. <o:p></o:p> "'At last the chief demon, Mura, began fighting with the Lord. Mura used his mystic power to render useless whatever weapons the Supreme Lord Hrsikesa unleashed. Indeed, to the demon the weapons felt just like flowers striking him. When the Lord could not defeat the demon even with various kinds of weapons - whether those that are thrown or those that are held - He began fighting with His bare hands, which were as strong as iron-studded clubs. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> The Lord wrestled with Mura for one thousand celestial years and then, apparently fatigued, left for Badarikashrama. There Lord Yogeshvara, the greatest of all yogis, the Lord of the universe, entered a very beautiful cave named Himavati to rest. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> O Dhananjaya, winner of wealth, that cave was ninety-six miles in diameter and had only one entrance. I went there out of fear, and also to sleep. There is no doubt about this, O son of Pandu, for the great fight made me very tired. the demon followed Me into that cave and, seeing Me asleep, started thinking within his heart, "Today I will kill this slayer of all demons, Hari." <o:p></o:p> "'While the wicked-minded Mura was making plans in this way, from My body there manifested a young girl who had a very bright complexion. O son of Pandu, Mura saw that she was equipped with various brilliant weapons and was ready to fight. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Challenged by that female to do battle, Mura prepared himself and then fought with her, but he became very astonished when he saw that she fought him without cessation. The king of the demons then said, "Who has created this angry, fearsome girl who is fighting me so powerfully, just like a thunderbolt falling upon me?' After saying this, the demon continued to fight with the girl. <o:p></o:p> "'Suddenly that effulgent goddess shattered all of Mura's weapons and in a moment deprived him of his chariot. He ran toward her to attacker with his bare hands, but when she saw him coming she angrily cut off his head. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Thus the demon at once fell to the ground and went to the abode of Yamaraja. The rest of the Lord's enemies, out of fear and helplessness, entered the subterranean Patala region. <o:p></o:p> "'Then the Supreme Lord woke up and saw the dead demo before Him, as well as the maiden bowing down to him with joined palms. His face expressing His astonishment, the Lord of the universe said, "Who has killed this vicious demon? He easily defeated all the demigods, Gandharvas, and even Indra himself, along with Indra's companions, the Maruts, and he also defeated the Nagas (snakes), the rulers of the lower planets. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> He even defeated Me, making Me hide in this cave out of fear. Who is it that has so mercifully protected Me after I ran from the battlefield and went to sleep in this cave?" <o:p></o:p> "'The maiden said, "It is I who have killed this demon after appearing from Your transcendental body. Indeed, O Lord Hari, when he saw You sleeping he wanted to kill You. Understanding the intention of this thorn in the side of the three worlds, I killed the evil rascal and this freed all the demigods from fear. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I am Your great maha-sakti, Your internal potency, who strikes fear into the hearts of all Your enemies. I have killed this universally terrifying demon to protect the three worlds. Please tell me why You are surprised to see that this demon has been killed, O Lord." <o:p></o:p> "'The Supreme Personality of Godhead said, "O sinless one, I am very satisfied to see that it is you who have killed this king of the demons. In this way you have made the demigods happy, prosperous, and full of bliss. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Because you have given pleasure to all the demigods in the three worlds, I am very pleased with you. Ask any boon you may desire, O auspicious one. I will give it to you without a doubt, though it be very rare among the demigods." <o:p></o:p> ""The maiden said, "O Lord, if You are pleased with me and wish to give me a boon, then give me the power to deliver from the greatest sins that person who fasts of this day. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I wish that half the pious credit obtained by one who fasts will accrue to one who eats only in the evening (abstaining from grains and beans), and that half of this pious credit will be earned by one who eats only at midday. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Also, may one who strictly observes a complete fast on my appearance day, with controlled senses, go to the abode of Lord Vishnu for one billion kalpas after he has enjoyed all kinds of pleasures in this world. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is the boon I desire to attain by Your mercy, my Lord, O Lord Janardana, whether a person observes complete fasting, eats only in the evening, or eats only at midday, please grant him a religious attitude, wealth, and at last liberation." <o:p></o:p> "'The Supreme Personality of Godhead said, "O most auspicious lady, what you have requested is granted. All My devotees in this world will surely fast on your day, and thus they will become famous throughout the three worlds and finally come and stay with me in My abode. Because you, My transcendental potency, have appeared on the eleventh day of the waning moon, let your name by Ekadasi. If a person fasts on Ekadasi, I will burn up all his sins and bestow upon him My transcendental abode. <o:p></o:p> "'"These are the days of the waxing and waning moon that are most dear to Me: Tritiya (the third day), Ashthami (the eighth day), Navami (the ninth day), Chaturdasi (the fourteenth day), and especially Ekadasi (the eleventh day). <o:p></o:p> "'"The merit one attains by fasting on Ekadasi is greater than that achieved by observing any other kind of fast or by going to a place of pilgrimage, and even greater than that achieved by giving charity to brahmanas. I tell you most emphatically that this is true." <o:p></o:p> "'Having thus given the maiden His benediction, the Supreme Lord suddenly disappeared. From that time onward the Ekadasi day became most meritorious and famous all over the universe. O Arjuna, if a person strictly observes Ekadasi, I kill all his enemies and grant him the highest destination. Indeed, if a person observes this great Ekadasi fast in any of the prescribed way, I remove all obstacles to his spiritual progress and grant him the perfection of life. <o:p></o:p> "'Thus, O son of Prtha, I have described to you the origin of Ekadasi. This one day removes all sins eternally. Indeed, it is the most meritorious day for destroying all kinds of sins, and it has appeared in order to benefit everyone in the universe by bestowing all varieties of perfection. <o:p></o:p> This was excerpted from Utpanna Ekadasi [from the Bhavisya-uttara Purana] as found in the celebrated book, "Ekadasi: The Day of Lord Hari" 1986. pages 13 - 22. HH Krishna Balaram Swami. Bhaktivedanta Institute Press.

Please check out this reference to Vishnu & His Shakti incarnating for the first time --it is found in the story of 'Uttana ekadasi' http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/?p=1120168&postcount=3 reprinted below: Excerpted from the Bhavisya-uttara Purana:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Lord Sri Krishna:<o:p></o:p> “I will tell you why Ekadasi is the most purifying of all days. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the Satya-Yuga there once lived an amazingly fearsome demon called Mura. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Always very angry, he terrified all the demigods, defeating even Indra, the king of heaven; Vivasvan, the sun-god; the eight Vasus; Lord Brahma; Vayu. the wind-god; and Agni, the fire-god. With his terrible power he brought them all under his control. <o:p></o:p> "'Lord Indra then approached Lord Shiva and said, "We have all fallen from our planets and are now wandering helplessly on the earth. O lord, how can we find relief from this affliction? What will be the fate of us demigods?' <o:p></o:p> "'Lord Shiva replied, "O best of the demigods, go to that place where Lord Vishnu, the rider of Garuda, resides. He is Jagannatha, the master of all the universes and their shelter as well. He is devoted to protecting all souls surrendered to Him.'" <o:p></o:p> "Lord Krishna continued, 'O Arjuna, winner of wealth, after Lord Indra heard these words of Lord Shiva's, he proceeded with all the demigods to the place where Lord Jagannatha, the Lord of the universe, the protector of all souls, was resting. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Seeing the Lord sleeping upon the water, the demigods joined their palms and, led by Indra, recite the following prayers: <o:p></o:p> "'"O Supreme Personality of Godhead, all obeisances to You. O Lord of lords, O You who are praised by the foremost demigods, O enemy of all demons, O lotus-eyed Lord, O Madhusudana (killer of the Madhu demon), please protect us. Afraid of the demon Mura, we demigods have come to take shelter of You. O Jagannatha, You are the doer of everything and the creator of everything. You are the mother and the father of all universes. You are the creator, the maintainer, and the destroyer of all. You are the supreme helper of all the demigods, and You alone can bring peace to them. You alone are the earth, the sky, and the universal benefactor. <o:p></o:p> "'"You are Shiva, Brahma, and also Vishnu, the maintainer of the three worlds. You are the gods of the sun, moon, and fire. You are the clarified butter, the oblation, the sacred fire, the mantras, the rituals, the priests, and the silent chanting of japa. You are the sacrifice itself, its sponsor, and the enjoyer of its results, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Nothing within these three worlds, whether moveable or immovable, can exist independent of You. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> O Supreme Lord, Lord of lords, You are the protector of those who take shelter of You. O supreme mystic, O shelter of the fearful, please rescue and protect us. We demigods have been defeated by the demons and have thus fallen from the heavenly realm. Deprived of our positions, O Lord of the universe, we are now wandering about this earthly planet."' <o:p></o:p> "Lord Krsna continued, 'Having heard Indra and the other demigods speak these words, Sri Vishnu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, replied, "What demon possesses such great powers of delusion that he has been able to defeat all the demigods? What is his name, and where does he live? Where does he get his strength and shelter? Tell Me everything, O Indra, and do not fear." <o:p></o:p> "'Lord Indra replied, "O Supreme Godhead, O Lord of lords, O You who vanquish the fear in Your pure devotees' hearts, O You who are so kind to your faithful servants, there was once a powerful demon of the Brahma dynasty whose name was Nadijangha. he was extraordinarily fearsome and wholly dedicated to destroying the demigods, and he begot an infamous son named Mura. <o:p></o:p> cont'd . . .

How about who's Avatara incarnated last or most recently . . . Hmm, say, within the last five 5,000 years . . . Hmm, Oh I know! Chaitanya Mahaprabhu! I think it's fair to say Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is God incarnate [during the 16th Century]. Anyone need proof? Anyone need upanishad proofs to pledge pranams to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu? Still looking for something different from the masses?

First, gabhodakashayi visnu is the VISHNU within the material cosmos --he performs ocasional pastimes when requested by Brahmaji. Second, the pastimes in the other are esoteric sentiments that are concievable only by maid-servants (sakhis) of Radharani --Sri Krishna's eternal Girlfriend. The position of Radharani is far far far beyond the discussions of liberation and wars between the suras & asuras. The DEVI is a lamentable state of seperation from the counterpart consort DEVI-PATI. What does Devi seek but to embrace the only Personality fit to recieve her hand????????

. . . would do well to shed their "holier than thou" attitude and learn some tolerance.

Bhaktajan: I do not use nor know how to use and would not use an ignore list --unless I was in denial . . .

sant your questions are fair and square and on the level! I've asked this before: "If one's path is not Vaishnava Bhakti --then tell me the goal that is sought via Shiva, Kali-ma? Tell us of the Shivite's aspirations and/or ulterior motives and/or holy quest"

Hindu trinity [aka, Godhead]: Brahman = empty space that is inseperable from the manifest cosmos. Paramatma = the life force in each particle of creation --animate and inanimate. Bhagavan = The possessor of all opulences --The Supreme Personality of Personalism, Krishna.

Kaisersose: It is the very belief that their religion is somehow better than everything else, that keeps them interested in religion. Else, they would have moved on a long time ago. Bhaktajan's response: You are a pustulous bag of bile with a countenance to match, I'd wager. But, surely you are surrounded by loving putanas that shower you with affection, am I not correct in my assumption? If not, I am astounded by your misfortune--may I be wrong in my assessment.

Smabya, sant is not referring to the "rights to marriage of homosexuals".

to have a clear understanding?? HA HA! Humility man! Humility man! For God's sake learn humility! :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Mundaka Upanisad (2.2.10–12):<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> “In the spiritual realm, beyond the material covering, is the unlimited Brahman effulgence, which is free from material contamination. That effulgent white light is understood by transcendentalists to be the light of all lights. In that realm there is no need of sunshine, moonshine, fire or electricity for illumination. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Indeed, whatever illumination appears in the material world is only a reflection of that supreme illumination. That Brahman is in front and in back, in the north, south, east and west, and also overhead and below. In other words, that supreme Brahman effulgence spreads throughout both the material and spiritual skies.” .................................................................................<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Perfect knowledge means knowing Krishna. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, the author, Srila Vyasadeva, has established that one will describe the Supreme Truth as Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan according to one’s realization of Him. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Srila Vyasadeva never states that the Supreme Truth is a jiva, an ordinary living entity. The living entity should never be considered the all-powerful Supreme Truth. If he were the Supreme, he would not need to pray to the Lord to remove His dazzling cover so that the living entity could see His real face. <o:p></o:p> The conclusion is that one who has no knowledge of the potencies of the Supreme Truth will realize the impersonal Brahman. Similarly, when one realizes the material potencies of the Lord but has little or no information of the spiritual potencies, he attains Paramatma realization. Thus both Brahman and Paramatma realization of the Absolute Truth are partial realizations. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> However, when one realizes the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna, in full potency after the removal of the hiranmaya-patra, one realizes vasudevaù sarvam iti: [bg. 7.19] Lord Sri Krishna, who is known as Vasudeva, is everything—Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. He is Bhagavan, the root, and Brahman and Paramatma are His branches.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In the Bhagavad-gita (6.46–47) there is a comparative analysis of the three types of transcendentalists—the worshipers of the impersonal Brahman (jnanis), the worshipers of the Paramatma feature (yogis) and the devotees of Lord Sri Krishna (bhaktas). <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> It is stated there that the jnanis, those who have cultivated Vedic knowledge, are better than ordinary fruitive workers, that the yogis are still greater than the jnanis, and that among all yogis, those who constantly serve the Lord with all their energies are the topmost. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In summary, a philosopher is better than a laboring man, a mystic is superior to a philosopher, and of all the mystic yogis, he who follows bhakti-yoga, constantly engaging in the service of the Lord, is the highest. The Vedas directs us toward this perfection.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p>

There is a spiritual sky. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" /><o:p></o:p> There is another nature, which is beyond manifestation and nonmanifestation. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> But how will you know that there is a sky where the planets and inhabitants are eternal? <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> All this knowledge is there, but how will you make experiments? It is not possible. Therefore you have to take the assistance of the Vedas. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> This is called Vedic knowledge. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In our Krishna consciousness movement we are accepting knowledge from the highest authority, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is accepted as the highest authority by all classes of men. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> I am speaking first of the two classes of transcendentalists. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> One class of transcendentalists is called impersonalistic, Mayavadi. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> They are generally known as Vedantists, led by Sankaracarya. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And there is another class of transcendentalists, called Vaisnavas, like Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnu-svami. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Both the Sankara-sampradaya (disciplic succession) and the Vaisnava-sampradaya (disciplic succession) have accepted <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> Sankaracarya is supposed to be an impersonalist who preached impersonalism, impersonal Brahman, but it is a fact that he is a covered personalist.<o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> In his commentary on the Bhagavad-gita he wrote, <o:p></o:p> “Narayana, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is beyond this cosmic manifestation.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> And then again he confirmed, <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> “That Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. He has come as the son of Devaki and Vasudeva.” <o:p></o:p> <o:p></o:p> He particularly mentioned the names of His father and mother. So <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all transcendentalists. There is no doubt about it. Our source of knowledge in Krishna consciousness is the Bhagavad-gita, which comes directly from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.<o:p></o:p>