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brajeshwara das

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Everything posted by brajeshwara das

  1. 'In our centers' doesn't say anything about initiation or vows. 'In our centers' also the varnas would be recognized for the administration of the material order, but this doesn't mean you don't follow the regulative principals if you accept the vows during initiation. And Srila Swami Maharaj was clear that the devotees were not in the varnas. You show me where he says different vows for different initiations. I will be happy to accept if this is the case. Otherwise you are speculating.
  2. The fact that Srila Swami Maharaj intended his initiated diciples to take different sets of vows has not been posted. That the students of his varnashrama college or the greater society at large would follow different sets of regulations by their varna isn't what is in dispute. This is about initiation and vows. This is about bhakti yoga.
  3. This is how we should honor Jesus. I just tasted the Bread of Heaven from the communion in your post. In my church as a child I never once heard anything taught against other religions. The Mercy of the Lord was stressed.
  4. I'm guessing the mercy of Nityananda Prabhu, being so wide, would accomodate geographic necessities to allow the devotees to glorify Him. I don't see the controversy here.
  5. I woudn't normally quote myself but I think this clearly states my position on this: Once again, please consider this with an open heart.
  6. Just because because 8+2 doesn't = 12 doesn't mean it must equal 14. That Srila Swami Maharaj was mistreated and his diciples misundertoood or didn't hear his instructions, or even prevented them from being heard, doesn't prove your point. I refuse to speculate by 'reading between the lines' unless you have clear instructions that he didn't intend his initiated disciples to follow the 4 regs. That's all this is about. You are working off an assumption of his will, I am saying please substantiate that point with some facts. Otherwise you should rethink your position on how to implement daiva varnashrama dharma. Not whether or not but how. Are you a devotee or a ksatriya? Srila Swami Maharaj said you aren't both, though you may play a role as a varna you aren't in a varna. Unless you are choosing to identify with the varna instead of as a devotee. Now I understand that we want to see ourselves as aspiring devotees, not thinking ourselves qualified, but it is through the grace of Guru through initiation and acceptance of the four regulative principals that we enter into the sphere of the devotees. Once we do so, we shoud be chaste to those vows or be honest that we have broken them.
  7. I am not picking apart anyone's life Prabhu. This is about the subject at hand, don't make it personal. All I can say about your take on Srila Swami Maharaj's desires is that it is speculation. He desired a varnashrama college surely, he desired his disciples to break up into varnas for convenience of service, but specifically stated the devotees didn't belong to the varnas. He never instituted a new initiation system with different vows for the different varnas, and none of your quotes you have presented lead to this conclusion that it was his desire to do so. So while I am perfectly fine with daiva Varnashrama dharma becoming a more official part of the movement, I believe you are incorrect in saying different vows for different devotees.
  8. If you meant from the above that he wasn't eating meat then that works for me. But your words just by the question you ask logically indicate you are talking about eating. I think you could have been more clear if you meanty otherwise.
  9. I would choose the 4 regs but do everything following initiation differently. I would have taken everything much more seriously. I am in grhasta life now and it is very difficult to follow correctly. I would have stayed in bramachari life, it is much easier from my feeling to always remember Krishna, you always have the association of the devotees and the darshan of the Deities. I am in a different math than you Prabhu and we never were offered anything but the 4 regs. Did Srila Swami Maharaj ever change the initiation procedure and offer specific initiation vows for the 4 varnas? If not then this is speculation on the desires of Srila Swami Maharaj.
  10. A vow is a vow. If you took a vow then you are bound to it. If you can't uphold the vow you should take the proper understanding that you are fallen and cannot follow correctly, you are not surrendered. Looking for loopholes so you can do the activities you enjoy is not bona fide. I drink coffee. I'm sure I could justify it somehow if I look around enough in scripture but that is ignorant. I am fallen. That's that. I'm not as advanced as I may like to think, or wish others to believe. How will I ever make any real progress if I'm not honest with myself? If Guru gives new orders and new initiates make new vows different from mine, it doesn't mean I am free from my vows. The contract was signed. If in my service I need to take out someone to kill an animal, ok, that is my service. Remember service descends and we don't manufature it, it needs to be an order from a senior vaisnava. So I have to be very sure that this is real service not my false ego imposing its will on the environment, telling me it is service so I can be served. Maya will try and trick me in this way, and I may think very surely "I am a devotee, I am serving" but I may not be led by Guru but by Mayadevi. But if I take these persons and train them to kill, still I do not eat the meat because I have a vow not to eat meat. I should do my service in detachment to my desires, only for the satisfaction of the Lord. Especially something like killing, this is something that should be meditated upon and there should be a very clear necessity for the service.
  11. Personally, it feels like crap when you can't keep a vow to Guru because you are so fallen and selfish. But we just have to soldier on as best we can. Better to try and fail than not try at all. Worst is when we tell ourselves Guru really didn't mean it like that, it's ok, keep sinning. It's somehow bona fide and part of your service. We should at least be honest enough with ourselves to know when a vow has been broken.
  12. namnam akari bahudha nija sarva-saktis tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah etadrisi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah Translation O my Lord, Your holy name bestows auspiciousness upon all. And You have unlimited names such as Krsna and Govinda by which You reveal Yourself. In Your many holy names You have kindly invested all Your transcendental potency. And in chanting these names, there are no strict rules concerning time or place. Out of Your causeless mercy, You have descended in the form of divine sound, but my great misfortune is that I have no love for Your holy name." Illumination Here it is said, "0 my Lord, You have revealed the chanting of Your holy names, and all Your power has been invested within those names." Both the holy name of Krsna and its potency are eternal. All potencies or energies are found within the holy name of Krsna. And there is no particular time or place which has been fixed for chanting the name. It is not that one can only chant in the morning, or only after taking bath, or only after going to a holy place - there are no such conditions. One may go on chanting the holy name of Krsna anytime, anywhere, in any circumstance. In this verse, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, "0 Krsna, You have given a most sublime opportunity to all. You are so infinitely gracious that You have given us the service of Your holy name (nama bhajana). Still, my misfortune is the worst. I don't find any earnest desire within me to take the name. I have no faith, no love, no tendency to take the name. I do not find any innate hankering to chant the name. What can I do?" This is the second of Sriman Mahaprabhu's eight precepts. He says, "0 Lord, You have given everything from Your side to lift me up from this mundane world of relativity. Your attempt to deliver me is so magnanimous that all You require from me is a little cooperation in accepting Your grace, but I turn a deaf ear to Your magnanimous call. 0 Lord, I am hopeless." Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has given us great hope in the first verse of His Siksastakam or eight precepts. He explains that the chanting of the holy name of Krsna, when properly undertaken, may progress step by step, revealing seven consequences. The first effect is the cleansing of consciousness; the second is liberation from all mundane relativity. As the third effect, positive goodness awakens within our heart and takes us to Vrndavana. Then, under the guidance of svarupa-sakti, the Lord's internal energy yogamaya, we come to the vadhu conception: we are potency, we are to serve Krsna unconditionally. Vadhu means that rasa which gives full connection with the Lord (madhurya-rasa). Ecstatic Ocean of Joy After attaining that stage, what are the other consequences that come? One becomes a particle in the ocean of joy, and that joy is not stale or static, but ever-new and dynamic; it is purifying to the utmost. Although we are allowed to keep our individual conception, still we feel that all parts of our existence become purified to the utmost when we take the name. And this will not only affect me, but all who are connected with this nama-sankirtana. They will experience mass conversion, mass purification, the utmost purification. These are the sevenfold results of chanting the holy name. From The Golden Volcano by Srila Sridhar Maharaj
  13. I am neither honest nor a devotee but aspiring to become both.
  14. Sorry Prabhu if I was unfair to you. I didn't know Srila Swami Maharaj initiated ksatriya disciples, sudra disciples etc. I thought like SCSMath it was Hari Nama with understanding/agreement to the 4 regs. No one told you to follow the 4 regs then you aren't bound to them. I don't have much contact with ISKCON practices so please forgive me for making the assumption.
  15. I'm at peace with Bhakta Raja and whatever he chooses to eat, no problem. But the following is nonsense: It frankly sounds delusional and earlier you had said that his meat-eating was from his neophyte days and forgivable. When shown he still does this activity, you make this huge stretch to justify it somehow. The positive vow he made is negated by the perceived necessity to "to engage the local Ksyatrias in the hunting required to keep them sharp in a wartime situation." Whatever dude.
  16. I don't believe that was me, Srila Govinda Maharaj is my diksa Guru. I have no problem where people find or don't find Guru, that is an internal personal thing in my opinion.
  17. Funny, but this is the way I imagine you Go figure!
  18. Yeah, I think remembering where you come from keeps you humble.
  19. Ah, points you take out of context are not easily forgotten, are you an elephant? So I'm an ass, you are an elephant, Bhaki-Raj there is what again? I wonder what animal theist and Beggar feel most embodies thier moods. Hmm... My point is was we should all consider ourselves students per Srila Sridhar Maharaj's instructions, that even who we consider Guru have stated they receive siksa from other devotees. I never said anything about "Srila Govinda Maharaj's living siksa Guru". I wouldn't know that, I am certain He listens to Guru wherever He finds Guru. What is you point anyway? Srila Swami Maharaj was Srila Govinda Maharaj's Bhagavad Gita teacher and considered Him a 'dear son'. I'm certain Srila Govinda Maharaj considered Him siksha Guru. Varnashrama is even mentioned in a letter to Srila Govinda Maharaj from Srila Swami Maharaj, thought you would get a kick out of it:
  20. Yeah, but it's like (forgive the reference, think of them as veggie) "green eggs and ham." We are begged to taste them, begged to try them, but we continuously refuse to do it, even we may say "I love them" but we never really take a bite. So we go on with our coffee and wish we had the guts to really try and taste them. One day maybe, with the grace of the devotee, I may finally open my mouth and realize "I do, I do! I do so like Krishna Bhakti! Thank you Thank you Sam I am!"
  21. I'd rather think of deer in this way, taking nourishment from Srila Govinda Maharaj's hand.
  22. No, he's saying he likes to hunt like Elmer Fudd. Read his posts.
  23. In SCSMath we have 1st and 2nd initiations. 1st is Hare Nama with the agreement to follow the 4 regs. No fire sacrifice. 2nd is Gayatri initiation with the sacrifice. Then you are a Brahmin. So there is room there to not have to reach the brahminical standards, but still the 4 regs are required. We are initiated to be devotees, not ksatriyas, vaisyas or sudras. Anyhow, if you took a vow to follow the 4 regs and have gone a'hunting, I can't blame you, I have gotten intoxicated, gambled and had illicit sex. An egg or two as well. But I would never consider trying to interpret Guru's words to mean I am released from my vow. I am a sinner and a terrible disciple who has not followed correctly according to my agreement with my Gurudeva. I am truly lower than a worm in stool and am ashamed of myself. What it appears to me, please forgive any offense but I'm speaking from the heart, is that Maya has clouded your judgment and you used Srila Swami Maharaj's desire for a varnashrama college and to have the varnas as part of ISKCON to mean that you are released from your vows. You apparently look for his words to support your conclusions instead of looking for the truth in his words. This is bad for you and I hope you can see that. That is worse than the act of killing and eating the meat. You may act in the capacity of a ksatriya but please don't ignore Srila Swami Maharaj said a devotee is not in the varnas though you play that role. Unless he specifically released you from your vows you are bound to them, no matter what you have worked out in your head. Others that may follow may be bound by different rules surely, but they are not retroactive (unless you can prove otherwise). But that isn't to say you guys don't have a real mission with your DVD. Just misconceptions maybe. I would think the way the varna system should be set up would be for the congregation of lay people who haven't taken initiation like theist, who aren't ready to make those vows. They can be identified as those varnas and participate in the society without being bound to any vows. They would be encouraged to follow surely but no vows. But once one takes Hare Nama initiation, unless a bona fide acharya says otherwise, they should try and follow the four regs as best they can. Hopefully this would keep those that aren't ready for the vows engaged and on the path of bhakti, and those that take the vows would be limited to persons ready for the commitment. Once they take the vows, they are still a ksatriya or whatever their varna was, but they are bound to the vows and considered an aspiring devotee. Then second initiation for those with the inclination for pujari etc service. This would seem to harmonize everything from my thinking. Please consider this with an open heart.
  24. Could you repost the quote, with as much of the surrounding conversation as possible. 'in ISKCON', 'our centers' doesn't say 'initiated disciples' so I want to ber sure what the context is. Thanks.
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