brajeshwara das

Where is initiation mentioned regarding any changes in the regulative principals? Within ISKCON you can have uninitiated bhakta students that haven't made a vow to follow anything, they are only studying (presumably in the varnashrama colleges). It seems Srila Swami Maharaj is saying the adjustment is to be made with the men recommending disciples for initiation: Please show me where he is saying there should be a change in the regulative principals of initiated disciples. He does say different regs for sudras and ksatriyas, but these were general statements on varnashrama colleges and not on discipleship. I feel that if he were sayingto change the regs for disciples taking initiation it would have been very explicit.

You could also try and encourage your mom to some extent to reduce the amount of meat she cooks, starting with beef. Don't be antagonistic, be gentle and make sure she sees it as a loving request from you. I have found people's guilt makes them very defensive regarding any anti-meat eating preaching, so if you say 'mom, can Fridays be veggie-only days?' she may be more inclined to happily participate. Over time she may grow in her own awareness and that could only be good for you both.

Jai!

Thanks for the upload bija. Wonderful, it really moves the heart.

You are my favorite Christian Not that we should play favorites, but I much appreciate your perspective.

Saint Francis is my childhood church Also, I bought my current house partly because it is the same color as the Deities in Soquel, but also because there is a St Francis murti near the driveway. I put the garlands from my pictures on him when the time is right, I just started this but it feels good to do so.

Oh, and feel free to say I come off as a pot-smoking commie hippy. That's not that far from the truth;)

What I'm saying is ISKCON is the mission you serve, I'm not involved with changing ISKCON's internal affairs, so it isn't 'my business'. That doesn't mean I'm not concerned with what develops there. I wouldn't be talking with you about this otherwise. But just to be completely honest, you guys though have sounded off like a couple of gun-nut A-team whackos on several occasions that gives me pause as to your judgment if ever allowed to assume a position of power. This may be totally inaccurate and don't take it too seriously, but when looking to change the government you have to be concerned as to who may fill the vaccuum. Sometimes the revolutionaries are great at overthrow but suck badly as rulers. I hope that makes sense to you This is half joking and half not. Anyhow, I wish you well and hope you are successful in pleasing your Srila Swami Maharaj. Happy Gaura Purnima!

I agree, but also feel sometimes we can't abandon some associations lightly. I have a dear Godbrother that has an issue with intoxication. I was told by my temple president at one point to avoid his association. When I told him I couldn't do that because he was such a dear old friend, he told me to be his good association then, don't let him be my bad association. Make the relationship beneficial for both, and don't allow it to be detrimental. Of course I fell down all by myself and did get intoxicated with my friend, but that's a different story. Whether I followed the advice or not was up to me, but it was good advice, though hard to do. I knew it was a risk.

This is still speculation. It could be true, it could be false, it could be somewhere in between. I'm frankly tired of the subject. Anyhow, it is your business and I'll leave it to you. May the truth prevail.

You're welcome

Like you said, you didn't take a vow for the 4 regs, and if ISKCON starts with some other system where not all 4 are part of the agreement with Guru per the varnasharama system, I have no problem. But if someone does take the vows to follow the regs, there's no question they should follow, even if the regs change later. Unless Guru says they are retroactively reduced. This is personal for me because I don't follow, I drink caffeine and have sex with my wife even though we aren't trying to make babies. You know how it goes. I'm still a materialist and struggling to even make a half-hearted attempt at surrender. That is the point of this thread IMO, following whatever regs you agree to, and the challenges in doing so. Can we not make this all about daiva varnashrama dharma? I think there is much to learn just in talking about how you overcome fall-down from not following, or if you just can't follow how you continue on etc. My wife got me a espresso machine recently for example. Maya is everywhere!

So no problem then

When in disagreement, is it a ksatriya trait to lob insults? Not like that one hurts, just it doesn't help in a respectful conversation. Please refrain from personal attacks.

It seems you guys have a problem because who is authorized to make any adjustments within ISKCON? When adjustments should be made, who can put a stamp of approval?

Bhima didn't take a vow from his Guru not to eat meat. Look at the way a ksatriya honors his vows, look at Bhisma.

He was saying they were for the varnashrama college, which would be open to the public. In preparation for the ashrams.

I was asking what date this is from so I can read it in its entirety.

No, I'm saying I'll take whatever the instruction of my Guru is, no problem. You have a different situation where you are not comfortable with the leadership of your organization. That's your controversy and I realized it really was none of my business.

Both quotes from 3/14/74: It is clear to me that the varnashrama college is to be open to anyone, not initiated disciples only, the varnas come first, and that the ashrams and spiritual life come later. Therefore to be in the varnas is not necessarily that one is initiated, just training to get to the human platform on the way to the ashrams: So then the devotees are not in the varnashrama but above it, but act within it as good examples: And killing: March 15 and April 20th of 1977 don't appear to be correct dates for the conversations you mention. Please provide the date where to find this. I don't see the conversation where Srila Swami Maharaj says some can eat meat, and this is really what is likely the key, not necessarily about meat but who he is saying can eat it. Not killing, we take no vow not to kill, that is understood. But we do take a vow not to eat meat. My point is that when you join in the ashrams, when you become initiated, you are held to that vow. If there is a place Srila Swami Maharaj talks about initiation and the varnas I would like to read that. Above all things, I don't want to cause any offense to the vaisnavas and that is why I don't wish to argue with you. We have read much the same things and come to different conclusions. That is not unheard of. As long as you are willing to discuss it rationally, I'm happy to continue.

OK, enjoy your controversy then.

All I can say is good luck with that then, if that is how you wish to interpret things. It is clear you have you mind made up and no flexibility exists. You are right even if you are wrong. I've said my peace, you disagree and I see no further point in arguing. Hari bol.

You are the one making the assumption, you need to prove your point. I am not the one making the speculation. Post it for all to see. What is the context of the conversation, was he talking about initiated disciples or just about the varnas in general? Was he saying if you have already taken initiation and made vows that it is OK for you to break them? You are the one posting the notion that initiated disciples fall into four varnas and have different regs to follow. You need to provide substantial evidence for this if you want to be taken seriously.

Is he talking about his initiated disciples or sudras, ksatriyas in general society? Where does he say these are initiated Hari Nam disciples? Context is critical here.